hormodin vs dip n grow

lou_midlothian_tx(z8 DFW, Tx)May 2, 2008

Hi,

I've been looking into these two products to try and attempt growing some cuttings off shantung maple (acer truncatum). They would be grown in 18 cell Rootmaker tray and be covered in a 8 inch dome to keep humidity inside. I'm going to sterilize everything to keep fungus under control (hopefully). What is the advantage and disadvantage of these two products?

I tried it last year using that hormone you buy from big box stores with no lucky and I had fungus outbreak.

I personally talked with Dr Carl Whitcomb via emails who has successfully grown cuttings from shantung maples using 8,000-10,000 PPM IBA during months of June and July.

Also, is there a preventive/cure product for fungus outbreak?

Thanks!

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georgez5il(z5 IL)

1. check the strength of the hormodin it was probably 0.1 to 0.3% IBA (1000 to 3000 ppm) & YES there are several fungicides avalable in powder form. The dome is helpful BUT if kept in place 24/7 then it is a invitation to fungal growth..... air the dome out one to several times a day.
As long as the strength is the same there is no difference in the results of using a powder or liquid formulation...

    Bookmark   May 3, 2008 at 8:50AM
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lou_midlothian_tx(z8 DFW, Tx)

There are 3 formulations for hormodin 1,2 and 3 (.1,.3 and.8%) and I need at least .8% IBA for shantung maple cuttings (or Dip n Grow for 1.0%) according to Dr Whitcomb. He never said which product he recommended though. He's rather very busy so he kept his emails pretty short. He said that his books provide a lot of information so I'm going to check into that.

I have Captan fungicide that I use for the seeds when undergoing long cold moist stratification so I suppose I could try that. I had forgotten about it since I don't use much of it.

    Bookmark   May 3, 2008 at 9:07AM
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lou_midlothian_tx(z8 DFW, Tx)

What about wilt-pruf or something like that in place of the dome? It would have been nice to have a small greenhouse with misting system but with my wife's spending habits, it doesn't look like it...

    Bookmark   May 3, 2008 at 7:52PM
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calistoga_al

Dr. Dirr recommends Dip & Grow for woody plants cuttings. I have tried both Hormodin 3 and Dip and grow, with dip and grow doing better with 5 second dips at the proper strength. Al

    Bookmark   May 5, 2008 at 9:40AM
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lou_midlothian_tx(z8 DFW, Tx)

Thanks Al. I'll go with Dip in Grow. It's already at 10,000 ppm IBA so I don't need to dilute it but I will try it at both 8,000 and 10,000 ppm and see what happens. Dirr says they are impossible to grow from cuttings but Dr Whicomb apparently had success with it. He has 4 identical shantung maples at 40+ feet grown from cuttings. I would have gone with grafting but the mouse ate pretty much all the seeds. I'll try cuttings this year and see how it goes and try grafting later when I do end up with seedlings for root stock.

    Bookmark   May 5, 2008 at 1:47PM
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schmoo

Lou,

Have you used straight dip-n-grow on soft wood cuttings before? That strength on soft-wood "more often than not" yields dead stem tissue. A water soluble form of IBA (the form in D-N-G is solublized in alcohol)would be a lot safer on soft plant tissue.

Schmoo

    Bookmark   May 5, 2008 at 7:31PM
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lou_midlothian_tx(z8 DFW, Tx)

No, I've never used it before. June-July period would produce more of semi-hard type, wouldn't it? I can't remember last year when I tried it using 1,000 ppm IBA that I got from big box store. You mean to add water to DNG? If I remember correctly, 4 parts of DNG and one part of water would yield 8,000 ppm IBA. Is that what you were talking about?

    Bookmark   May 5, 2008 at 7:40PM
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schmoo

Lou,

As far as status of the wood..where you are,part of the new growth used,etc....all comes into play.For you, I would guess semi-hard tissue in July would be close to where new growth originated...the basel tissue of the new stem/branch??
Your math is correct for ppm of IBA...but high concentrations of IBA in an alcohol solution can "burn" soft tissue...not the IBA, but the alcohol. I am sure some plants can handle it on soft tissue, but that is not the "norm".
What I am refering to is a water soluble form of IBA (look up KIBA or Water Soluble Salts of IBA....you WILL get easy hits). In this "form" you are able to apply high levels of IBA, without being concerned with torching (from the alcohol) the softer tissue/cutting.
Normally direct or high concentrations of D-N-G are used on hard wood cuttings (mid-late fall or winter), they typically (we are talking the average here) are able to withstand the higher alcohol levels.

Schmoo

    Bookmark   May 5, 2008 at 9:54PM
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schmoo

"5 second dips at the proper strength. Al"

Al,
Nice wording/comment!! The challenge of any propagator is matching up "proper strength" hormone with status of cutting/wood used. The easier stuff..low level is fine, it roots...pain in the rear plants, not so easy to match until you find out for sure.

Schmoo

    Bookmark   May 5, 2008 at 10:01PM
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lou_midlothian_tx(z8 DFW, Tx)

Schmoo,

Thank you. I did some digging and found this product Rhizopon AA #3 (0.8% IBA) which is K-IBA type. Hortus is another brand as well.

Lou

    Bookmark   May 6, 2008 at 9:15AM
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schmoo

BINGO!! But look at the tablets and the Hortus, those are the ones you dissolve in water (If I remember correctly, the tablets are a pain to dissolve at higher concentrations. The powder is much easier, but you need a gram scale to weigh it). The #3 is a powder you dont add to water...like Rootone,Hormex,Hormodin,etc.

    Bookmark   May 7, 2008 at 8:17AM
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lou_midlothian_tx(z8 DFW, Tx)

Didn't realize the powder ones are more like Hormodin at first till I read more about how they were used afterward. Hortus powder does seem like easy one to use so I probably will go with it.

Weight scale... like the digital kitchen weight scale? Not the measurement spoons due to density/weight/volume thing?

    Bookmark   May 7, 2008 at 10:20AM
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schmoo

Lou,

Correct( "Not the measurement spoons due to density/weight/volume thing")...no spoons until you could weigh a gram correctly and figure out a spoon to fit it in. A pain in the beginning, but allows flexibility for you in the future (you can even go as high as 60,000ppm IBA with Hortus...not that you would want to..too high a level can cause other problems). You can even apply to the leaves, but I wont get into that.

Schmoo

    Bookmark   May 7, 2008 at 9:05PM
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lou_midlothian_tx(z8 DFW, Tx)

No big deal. I've had to deal with that stuff for chemistry lab. I just need a cheap digital weight scale. Any suggestion on that one? Would hate to try several things before finding a decent one and wasted money on the other ones. A tube (like you'd use in chemistry labs) would seem to help with all these volume measurements, etc and would not have to use a lot of it to try a few things at a time. Like 250 ml instead of 1 liter and such.

What do you think of using wilt pruf or similiar product to cut down transpiration? I read about it but I wasn't sure how effective that is. Would Captan fungicide spraying help or soil drenching the medium mix help to prevent fungus outbreak?

    Bookmark   May 7, 2008 at 9:35PM
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schmoo

Lou,

Honestly, do not have a clue on scales(try referencing the weight of a penny, might be a good start). The label rates are all based on grams per liter for "X"ppm, pretty easy once you have the correct info.
What little trial work I have read concerning such products (the anti-transpirants), no I don't think they work in this instance....sometimes it is fun to play no matter what you read.
Captan is the old standard in propagation, yes it works and can help....how long it stays effective after application?? Remember, a lot of these diseases are in the air, on your hands maybe??...the enviroment you create to propagate in can also propagate these diseases...keep things clean,sharp knives/pruners, "an ounce of prevention blah blah" and healthy cuttings make a difference, sick plants yield sick cuttings.

Schmoo

    Bookmark   May 7, 2008 at 10:07PM
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calistoga_al

I would never use dip and grow not properly diluted as per the instructions furnished with the product. I can't imagine what the result might be. When I mentioned "at the proper strength" it was assumed the directions were available and would be followed. Al

    Bookmark   May 8, 2008 at 10:14AM
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lou_midlothian_tx(z8 DFW, Tx)

Al,

You didn't really go into much info on that. I did say 8,000 to 10,000 ppm and DNG happens to be at 10000 ppm but as schmoo pointed out, it's the alcohol that would ruin it. You didn't say that. Apparently, up to 30,000 ppm in water soluble solution is required for some of japanese maples so how do you plan to dilute DNG? ;-)

    Bookmark   May 8, 2008 at 10:42AM
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calistoga_al

Sorry, I guess I misunderstood what you were asking. I have never used hormone in the strength you suggest. Dip and Grow suggests the strongest dilution at 1 to 5 and I have not used it any stronger even for the hardest wood. Dirr mentions that a mix of over 20,000 PPM will burn most cuttings. Where did you find the strength of DNG listed? Al

    Bookmark   May 9, 2008 at 5:36PM
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lou_midlothian_tx(z8 DFW, Tx)

Hi Al,

http://www.super-grow.biz/IndoleButiricAcidPlantRootingHormone.jsp

http://www.dipngrow.com/images/Parts%20Per%20Million%20(PPM).pdf

Dirr's book also has info on some products. Don't you have his book? It's in chapter 2. It says for DNG, it has 1.0% IBA, 0.5% NAA and 98.5% alcohol. I would imagine that strength of alcohol would burn tender cuttings if not diluted much. I would most definitely try this product at diluted rate for cuttings while Hortus water soluble IBA at higher IBA concentration.

I'm just bored plus my brother is sorta challenging me that I can't do it and that air layering is the way to go. I just want to try growing cuttings in the root maker and get nice root development. Dr Whitcomb's book 'Plant Production in Container II' is pretty good if you're looking to maximize growth out of container before planting out.

    Bookmark   May 9, 2008 at 5:55PM
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tcuser(ZONE 7)

You can buy a digital scale on ebay (buy 50 x 0.001 precision for gram, you can weight almost 1 milligram) for about $30 include shipping. I use and like it. Buy 5 gram IBA for $14 and 25 gram NAA for $13. You can use 95% alcohol or KOH 1M to dissolve them. Add fungicide physan 20 if you want. Prepare solution for 10,000 ppm IBA and 5,000 ppm NAA. From that solution you can dilute to whatever concentration you want. If you want gel form add more corn starch and cook it. I use it for persimmon, lipstick, rose, AV... and it works. Cheers.

    Bookmark   May 12, 2008 at 9:45AM
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njbiology

tcuser,

It worked on persimmon!??? I've been researching this - want to propagate Diospyros virginiana (American persimmon) - any advice?

Thanks,
Steve

    Bookmark   July 28, 2009 at 1:19AM
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njbiology

tcuser,

It worked on persimmon!??? I've been researching this - want to propagate Diospyros virginiana (American persimmon) - any advice?

Thanks,
Steve

    Bookmark   July 28, 2009 at 2:58AM
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tcuser(ZONE 7)

Hi Steve,
Use mixture of 5,000 ppm IBA & 2,500 ppm NAA; 50 % perlite & 50% coir (less fungi than peat).
Use green cuttings with 2-3 leaves; pinky-finger size, 8 inches long.
Need to have a clean cut to avoid tissue damage.
Using soft brush, anti-bacteria liquid hand soap, and running water to clean cuttings at least 1/2 hours to reduce/avoid fungi/bacteria.
Cover pots in clear plastic bags with few holes to keep high humidity.

    Bookmark   July 29, 2009 at 11:03AM
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dwhull

I have been working on rooting JA Maples with limited sucess. I have had better sucess with:
Using large clear plastic storage boxes and clear locking lids. Cleaned with 1:10 bleach,rinsed with water and opened very little to prevent the introduction of fungus.

May June cuttings 3 -4 node leave 2-4 leaves

3000 ppm IBA Dip n' Grow ( I beleave alcohal burn is a problem and plan to try KIBA next.

Put the boxes in no direst sun aria ( mine are under a deck it is bright but all light is reflected.

After rooting has started I remove 1 leaf. This starts a new branch. I then apply foliar fertilizer (very weak).

I have had 100% rooting with Seryu. Then I lost them all because I transplanted then in Fall. ALWAYS wait untill after they leaf out in spring to transplant cuttings. This winter the rooted cuttings are in a cold frame.

This past year I tried the Rootmaker 18/tray for some cuttings. A nursery told me they use them for hard ( Rhodys) to root products, but due to the cost use Anderson Band containers for most things. I had a mist system problem this summer and the dryness was a bigger problem for the Rootmaker than the Anderson. I have all my Pine seedlings in the Rootmakers and they were fine.

Good luck!

    Bookmark   January 9, 2011 at 11:30AM
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cothrang_realtracs_com

have some coleus cuttings/and some petunia...do I use 20 water to 1 dip and grow...
may I cut the top out of the petunias that are rooted to start more
can you use dip and grow for a fertilizer after they have rooted
thanks.

    Bookmark   January 24, 2011 at 5:28PM
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calistoga_al

I just started some hardwood dormant cuttings yesterday using a system popular in UK propagation sources. Hardwood cuttings from 6 to 8 inches are cut,dipped in hormone and bundled together and laid flat in a tray of moist, not wet compost, kept in a cool place. In spring as the temperature warms I will uncover weekly and check for root development. As roots reach about an inch long I will separate and plant those upright with two or three buds above the soil. This method works well on some trees and not at all on others, so I keep trying. Al

    Bookmark   January 25, 2011 at 10:09AM
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njbiology

1. Can't you just dilute Dip n Grow in water and apply with a brush?

2. I was hoping for an all-purpose product solution:

I want to propagate rhododendrons/azaleas, gooseberries/currants, plums/serviceberries and figs.

Any updated ideas?

    Bookmark   December 9, 2012 at 12:17PM
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deltaohio

I propagated several shantung maples that a friend on the conifer forum sent me last summer. I used dip n grow and a Rootmaker 32/tray.

Frank

    Bookmark   December 26, 2012 at 3:07PM
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