Melanie on 'This Old House'... Feedback?

spectre(SZ 24, US 10b)January 24, 2004

Hello All:

Now that I've temporarily retired from writing screenplays, I've been asked to post the following pictures on behalf of mjsee (Melanie) so we can help her out with her garden redesign:

Please note---all the walls depicted are to be solid rock---that's where the bulk of the cost of the estimate is coming from. As far as the picture goes, you can see the driveway in second photo. The long brick wall would need to be removed and replaced with another wall of some sort to accommodate the you can see, this isn't a question of building a ramp UP--it's more a question of digging a ramp DOWN. Her house sits in something of a hole....well really, just partway down a steep hill.

Further info that might be of use according to Melanie: the actual vertical drop that must be navigated, as best as Melanie can tell with her trusty 50 ft measuring tape, is 6.5 to 7 ft. That is the vertical height of the two walls that are in question. How she wishes she had surveying equipment and the knowledge to USE it! The driveway slopes up (gradually) a fair amount as you walk across it--she is estimating a 6" change--that is why it's saying 6.5 to 7 ft. The brick wall in the picture is 29 ft long; unfortunately the drawing isn't to scale and he isn't showing the driveway---so Melanie's not certain how far INTO the driveway the ramp starts---but she recalls that it was at the FAR side of the driveway---so about 40 feet?

Melanie will have more if necessary. She appreciates all the ideas, assistance and inspiration anyone can lend. Thanks.

spectre (on behalf of Melanie)

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mjsee(Zone 7b, NC)



I am awed. I am thrilled--you are wonderful. I will share any bugs you are forced to eat! (so long as they aren't cockroaches of camel back crickets. It's a phobia thing...)


    Bookmark   January 24, 2004 at 3:47PM
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ginger_nh(z4 NH)

I copy-pasted pertinent posts from her first thread so everything is here for people to look at when contemplating this re-design for Melanie. This is what she wrote needs to be considered:

"1)replacing retaining walls.
2)Reworking drainage in front of my house.
3)Replacing hideous white lansdscaper stone with patio material--probably cobblesonesque.
4) Adding handicap access from driveway to front area of home. (Not NECESSARY--but we have friends with one child in a motorized wheelchair and one that will BE in one--and iut owuld be nice for them to use their "real" chairs when they hang here. ANd ihave bad knees and hips--and am only ther's MY future to consider as well!) "

This is what she wrote regarding questions about the estimate cost she was given:
No, it includes 864 sq feet of solid rock retaining wall at $25.00/sq--($21,600)and 800 Sq ft of cobblestone patio (installed) at $11/sq.($8,800.) Those are the two big ticket items...and in all honesty--he priced what I want. I want this to blend with the rest of the (beautiful)rock walls in my yard. I think even he was a little surprised at how high the estimaate came out. In fairness to him--I didn't give him a budget--because I was CLUELESS as to how much this stuff cost--I should have. I also asked him to design something that would be beautiful and in keeping with the current site. MOSTLY it's because of the length of the retaining walls. I know we could do something with landscape stone--and he would probably be happy to do so--but I need to decide if I want to. This is a problem I have--I'd almost rather do without than settle for less than the best . . ."


PS Thanks so much to Spectre for providing "technical assistance" on top of his screenplay duties. We'll have to give out our equivalent of the Oscars one day . . .

    Bookmark   January 24, 2004 at 3:49PM
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Are the pots in the photo located left of what looks like steps in the diagram? About where the words "catch basin" are at.

Since it's important to know the grade change, has she considered a "sight level?" Survey suppliers sell those for about $40 to $100. Fairly accurate - probably to within a half inch over a 50 to 100 foot distance.

It helps to have a stake to rest it on. And if a professional measuring rod is not available, a second person can hold a measuring tape. The person with the sight level can call out as the other person moves their finger along the increments if they can't read the increments at a distance.

Just subtract the height of the support rod from the measurement on the rod or tape.

I bought one at the surveyor supply about a mile away. Apparently those can be bought on line too. It is a precision instrument, so intead of leather, we made a case -PVC pipe capped on one end with a threaded cap for the other end, drilled to permit moisture escape.

Here is a link that might be useful: Typical price for David White hand held sight level

    Bookmark   January 24, 2004 at 3:50PM
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mjsee(Zone 7b, NC)

Mario, yes. The pots are located to the left of the steps. The drawing is NOT to anything that REMOTELY resembles scale--it's something I asked the contractor to whip up for me to show my husband who had to be out of town when we had the initial visit. I'm going to have to look into getting a sight level.

On the other thread Tony asked if this was the only drawing/plan/estimate we had for this project--here is my answer:

Yes--because that is all we asked for. I'm going to contact the contractor (say THAT three times fast!) on Monday to set up a meeting to see if we can come up with some more cost effective--but still attractive, alternatives. My own fault--you'd think after all the time I spend hanging out in LD I would have know to give him a "not to be exceeded figure..." instead I told him what I wanted to achieve and asked him to design something that would meet those requirements--and be attractive. Not HIS fault that I have champagne tastes on a beer budget! Live and learn...

I also suggested that all further posts be on this thread. Once we are sure everyone is on the same page--shall I ask Spike to eliminate the first thread? So as to free up more space in this forum?


    Bookmark   January 24, 2004 at 4:02PM
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Anybody else hear an echo or is it just me?
You have made no commitment yet melanie is that right? I hope.
I suggest you start again.
What is the problem with the drainage?
Why do retaining walls have to be replaced?
Has the site been surveyed (forget buying the surveying equipment).
Is the ramp justifiable (cost effective)?
..and I am assuming that meanie is yet another spelling error!

    Bookmark   January 24, 2004 at 4:49PM
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mjsee(Zone 7b, NC)

"Meanie" is finger slipping on the keyboard and the "l" not getting typed--in this case--but it is also a family nickname that arose some years ago when my sibs and I first started e-mailing one another...for the same reason. (But my brother's poor typing--not mine.)

ANYHOO--I have no commitment. The problem with the drainage is as follows (sorry--thought I had explained that):

Do you see the three little bumps on the front or the house? In the area labeled "patio"? Those are widow wells. When it rains HARD the water sheets down the steps, shoots left(in the picture) and and starts to fill that first window well. If it rains hard LONG enough, then the water rises in the window well and comes over the bottom sill and into my finished basement. If it rains REALLY hard this happens with all three windows. Now--USUALLY things are ok--we have a little terrracotta 1/2 pipe that directs the water to the existing (if inadequate) drainage system...but when we get serious rain (has happened 4 times in 7 years) we have to bail the window wells.

You can't see the retaining wall that HAS to be replaced--it would be just to the left of the picture of the long retaining wall. It is cracked and has shifted a bit in the last year. It juts out about two or three feet past the long, low brick wall, and is holding up the end of the driveway. The long brick retaining wall only needs to be replaced to accomodate the ramp--if we decide to DO the ramp. I don't know if it is economically feasible. Certainly not right now! It would be different if it was something we HAD to have...we would find the money. The ramp is definitely in the WANT part of the budget.

Here is what I'm thinking. We HAVE to do something about hte cracked retaining wall. We MUST do something abouthte steps. We MUST do something about hte drainage (I'm tired of bailing during hurricanes) and I just cannot live with htat nasty white rock ANYMORE. (You can see just a bit of it in the photo.) My plan is to talk to my contractor, give him our realistic budget(DUH!WHAT was I thinking?) and see what we can come up with. He may be able figure out a way to do everything without all the extra retaining walls....or we may wait in the ramp for a few years.

I THINK they surveyed the sight--they told me they were coming by to "take measurements"--and my neighbor told me they had spent some time in my yard--but I was away that afternoon.

Sorry if I'm repeating myself!


    Bookmark   January 24, 2004 at 5:30PM
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mjsee(Zone 7b, NC)

The small, long rectangle at the left of the square at the bottom of the stairs is a slit drain to catch the worst of the water that comes down the stairs. The small squares all represent catch basins, and the dotted lines are below grade drainage pipes.

Just in case y'all need to know that. Have I mentioned how deeply grateful I am?


    Bookmark   January 24, 2004 at 5:49PM
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To what point do you want to be involved with the design of the renovation ?
If you are going to set the grades for the walls, drain inlets, slope of patio , ect... then you are really getting involved with some heavy weight design and construction criteria and a sight level is not really going to help you much.

If you want to noodle around with some conceptional design ideas with out getting down to the nitty gritty exact dimensions but have a basic idea of your rise and runs then it may behoove you to purchase a simple bubble level , a wood stake , a nail , string line and a measuring tape. Or a simple clear plastic hose and use it as a water level.
Both measuring devises are less than $ 15 bucks and will give you a good solid idea of the height differential that you have to deal with.

    Bookmark   January 24, 2004 at 6:04PM
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mjsee(Zone 7b, NC)

Michele--I know my limitations. Dealing with major retaing walls is DEFINITELY beyond them--that's why I contacted the contractor. It would, however, be a good excuse to go buy that laser level I've been wanting! Never waste an excuse to buy a tool...


    Bookmark   January 24, 2004 at 6:37PM
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Eanie Meanie Minie Mo No don't buy the tool buy the expertise the guy with the tool already has. Some see design as problem solving but first we have to define the problem. You have defined the problem and called a contractor to solve it. Not design. The contractor has offered a solution to the problem as described by you. Not design. You need to spend some money on professional advice.

    Bookmark   January 24, 2004 at 6:53PM
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mjsee(Zone 7b, NC)

Tony--my bad again. This GC is also a designer...I saw him working on a friend's property--he solved a REALLY nasty drainage issue and made it attractive on top of that! She was thrilled with the product and the process-so when we decided to have this work done I had him come by with his portfolio. VERY nice. Do I still deserve a smack? I mean--OTHER than for not telling the poor guy the budget ahead of time?


    Bookmark   January 24, 2004 at 10:26PM
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Certainly the estimate is, by my standards, cheap...
The question of a handicap access ramp is a very interesting one to me ... basically it means rethinking what an entrance is. For me there are three elements
1) an invitation, the reveal of the house and front door as you walk, the invitation to walk, the revelation of living
one client has this fantastic house (in several books) It doesn't have a garage on site, the walkway n is 130 ft ... it is a joy to make that walk even in the rain... a handicap access needs sometimes to deal with rain and snow but not as much a people seem to think.. the walk in can be an irreplaceable joy
2) A place to say good-by at the door; a place to say good-by part way down if they are closer friends, and maybe for a wheel chair access there could be a small roof there; and a place to say good by right next to the place they get into cars, again perhaps another small roof structure there.
3) the reveal of the house to the public
4) A hint (at least) about what is around the corner ... sometimes I have designed a closed, or close sense, for the front, opening up wide and expansive in the back ... The walk entry also suggests what is inside.
We have this vernacular that we use all the time and designers seem to have a hard time not using it and so a handicap access becomes an intrusive element. But why even think of it as "handicap access" ... think of humans in a wider sense... I'm sure we can discover a new language for these ramps...
Steps are a deep metaphor for entering and exiting a home, but new metaphors are possible ... but until the metaphor changes and one finds a language for it, the "handicap ramp" will be a handicap in the design.
- Asha

    Bookmark   January 24, 2004 at 11:16PM
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spectre(SZ 24, US 10b)

Hello Melanie:

Just want to ask some more background info. In addition to the vertical grade differences that have been requested above, is it at all possible to mark on the drawing where the street and the driveway are and the distances to the house?

Further, does the wall have to be solid stone or brick? Have you given thought to using concrete block with faux stone facing? The cost might be lower and you could have more flexibility in the look. The other thing our fellow posters might know that I don't is what is the style of your home?

Thanks for the info. . . I'm trying to do everything I can to avoid having french flies for dinner.


P.S.: Asha, you complimented me on my word use? Your impassioned plea for updated verbage on disabled access was awesome.

    Bookmark   January 25, 2004 at 12:16AM
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mjsee(Zone 7b, NC)

Spectre--I'll ask about the concrete block with stone facing...I don't THINK I can draw on that JPEG --but maybe I can. I shall certainly try. I will also attemnt a more "to scale" drawing on some graph paper. Maybe I can borrow a scanner (or use on at kinko's or something) and e-mail you a better drawing...or figure out how to post the darn thing myself! It will be later in the week--we are in the middle of snowstorm. If it STAYS snow all will be well--but if it turns to ice (which is what they are predicting) my power will probably go out. SO--if you DON'T here form me for a few days--do not despair. I'm just trying to survive!

Asha--I agree. I think the price is VERY reasonable for what has been proposed--I just can't do it all RIGHT NOW AS PLANNED. What's amazing is that what you described is almost exactly what Scott (the guy whgo dreamed this up) has planned--except for the roofing bits. Really--the "ramp" becomes an extension of the patio area. One of the reasons I want to stick with this, AS it is planned, is because it DOESN'T "look like a handicap access"...nor will it feel like one.

Here is what I hope to talk to my designer/contractor about. (Though it may be a few days--when we get snow down here the people with earthmoving equipment often get called out to scrape the roads. There are times when I think there are only two plows in the entire Piedmont...)

1) Is there any way to do this, as it is planned, but with less expensive materials? (My gut on this is that MOST of the cost is labor--so probably not--but it never hurts to ask.)

2) If query one isn't feasible, is there a way to do this in STAGES over the next few years?

3) Should we go back to the drawing board and rethink this whole thing?

Oh--and I'm going to give him our ACTUAL budget for staage one--We ran the numbers and can do $22,000 or so without jeopardizing the college fund. SO with that number to work with I am hoping we can come up with something. Thank you for your advice, your patience, and your support. Feel free to chime in and "smack" me when needed!


    Bookmark   January 25, 2004 at 12:20PM
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I don't see how your contractor is doing cobble for $11 because, of course, in our area true cobble is materials cost $11 --- and true, labor is usually the big cost, so yo might as well get good materials. Those concrete pavers do save some money over stone, at least initially but good materials prove to have lasting value and don't fade with time or crack or chip so you can fix it cause the color was only in the fits .25 inch and in the end good materials well used will improve the value of the house. That said, cobbles in our area about 2X as expensive as a flag stone, mostly because of course most stone is sold by the pound not the sq. foot and cobbles are thick ... and old cobbles are thick and nicely rounded and therefore highly sought after ... you can even get some from China (old towns going under the water of the new dam) for even more money :-)

2 re the front retaining wall ... sounds like the wall is falling down because of water backing up behind it ... water pushes walls over...
But do you really want a wall there or do you just assume that you must have a wall there for technical reasons. You can build a planted slope at 45degrees, so you don't really lose that much property space. A planted slope is much cheaper than a stone wall.

    Bookmark   January 25, 2004 at 12:46PM
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mjsee(Zone 7b, NC)

I think I misled everyone with the word cobble--these are not true granite cobbles--I don't THINK, but are individual pavers that LOOK like cobbles. With beveled edges...but I may be misremembering. I do know we were NOT talking about stamped concrete. Will remember to ask. The wall that is cracking doesn't have weep holes--so you are probably right about the water. I will also ask about the slope instead of a wall...I WAS assuming there needed to be a wall there for technical reasons. There may be! But I won't know until I ask. I agree with you about good materials--that is why we were talking solid rock wall instead of concrete block faced with "stone." I asked him to come up with something that would harmonize with the stone walls currently in place...and that would last.

Asha--I visited your website. You do beautiful work. Thank you for your opinions! Actually, thank EVERYONE for their opinions!

melanie (praying for snow NOT freezing rain!)

    Bookmark   January 25, 2004 at 1:16PM
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spectre(SZ 24, US 10b)

Hello All:

Since I encouraged Melanie to give the new Garden Restoration forum a chance with her renovated front entry, I designed a quickie overhead view with very rough ideas that I have for her front slope.

At the risk of being pilloried by the more learned out there, I'm running this up the flag pole and seeing who salutes (w/o the three-fingered one I hope). As my state's newly elected governator might say, "I vahnt too see sahme ack-shoon. No moh gurhlee tok anymohe...and I haf too rremynd yooh Sullie, deez eez my veek ahrm!"

Now keep in mind that I have no idea about the slope, grade, measurements, light exposure, location of driveway or street, her house style or Melanie's gardening tastes, estimated flow rate of water, materials available or her final budget. But I drew a plan anyway based on her stated criteria and incorporating some of Asha's idea and I'm charging ahead like a bull in a china shop.

I've eliminated the steps altogether, incorporating Asha's suggestion of eliminating the "handicap ramp". In its place is a min 5 ft walkway that gently switchbacks the slope to her front door (I'm not even sure of window locations or whether the doorframe is shaped the way it was in her original drawing. I've included a stream, with the source being merged with boulders at the top of the retaining wall. The stream flows perpendicular to the walkway and ends at a pond near the left patio. With planning, the stream bed may act as more channeling for excess water. The wall is broken into smaller segments to allow for more surface planting area.

Since the original plan said "patio", I've included that too, but with two balanced "rooms" on either corner of the house. In this drawing, the hardscape butts against the house, but I'd like to include a bed there, or at a minimum, container plants. The retaining wall on the left patio will double as a seat wall for parties. At the entrance, I've included an arbor as a "gateway to slope" that Melanie can plant over with a vine like campsis or clematis. The patio will be surfaced with the same material as the walkway.

Without knowing the flow, I've included a main 6" pipe under all of this; should be sufficient to handle the runoff. The low point in front of the house will be the hill side of the patio and sufficient catch basins should channel the water to the main. At the base of the walkway, a floor drain will also be included.

I've made extremely little provision for lighting or softscape, preferring to deal with the major issues first. I suspect that specimen trees (perhaps Eastern Dogwoods) will be planted as focal points on either end of the length of the walkway.

Well, there it is...I put my money where my mouth is so I don't have to put any insects there.


    Bookmark   January 26, 2004 at 8:51PM
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mjsee(Zone 7b, NC)

Spectre--given that you knew NOTHING about my yard, or my house--it's lovely. I'm hoping to get out and do some measurements tomorrow or Wednesday--weather permitting. Then, if I can ever get off my STREET (which is 2 inches of solid ice--the Boy says it's great sledding) perhaps I can drive to my friend-who-has-the-scanner's house, and I can e-mail you something that resembles a scale drawing. (I don't have any landscaping software--it'll be an old fashioned graph paper thing!)

You see--the patio area to the right of the entranceway? That would be floating about 10 Ft (maybe more!) in the air...I really have a RIDICULOUS lot!

But I appreciate the effort! What kind of program did you use for that? I love software--when it works! It might be worth buying the program--if only so I don't have to bug you and my buddy with the scanner...

No freezing rain yet--but I fear the kids are out of school until Thursday, at least. They've already cancelled tomorrow, and it's supposed to get trally cold tomorrow night,so even if we get melting it'll re-freeze...

Is that Eric of OH I hear sniggering?


    Bookmark   January 26, 2004 at 9:34PM
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ScottReil_GD(z5 CT)

I'm with Asha and Spectre. The ramp is the biggest challenge to overcome, both visually and from a more cerebral frame of reference. The ramps we see are usually retrofits and add-ons ("Oh, we forgot handicap access. How about here?"). The ramps that are built often (ostensibly) take resale in to account ("It needs to be temporary so we can remove it and not affect the salability of the house.")

Asha sez "The question of a handicap access ramp is a very interesting one to me ... basically it means rethinking what an entrance is" Bingo. We have made the ramps themselves handicaps to the home, both fiscally AND visually. And we have generally built them so the only people who DO use them are physically challenged. So instead of creating something to be inclusive (the point behind these features in the first place), we create something else to make them feel more different. Nice...

Spectres design eliminates that. Everyone uses the same entrance; it becomes an equalizer. When Sen no Rikyu built his tea house, he designed it with a nijiri-guchi, a short entrance that caused all who came to bow the same amount as they entered. This may seem a small thing to us, but that small design change helped start the dismantling of the caste structure in Japan. Everyone through one entrance might start equalizing things here too.

So what I'm saying is, Asha, you're a muse and Spectre, you're a genius (Spectre, do you get the brains from your web-toed maman or your buggering papa? Enquiring minds want to know...)

See Mel? Told you you were a lucky girl. Looking after those foamflowers and trout lilies is paying off early...

    Bookmark   January 26, 2004 at 10:38PM
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mjsee(Zone 7b, NC)

Be patient with me people--we now have a skim coating of glare ice on top of our 2-3" of solid frozen precip--not enough to bring down the power lines (so far--yay!) but DH went to look for our (non-existent) paper and says walking is---interesting. SSO--nomeasuring TODAY. I have a copy of my plat--I'll try to see if I can mocke something up from that and then tweak it once I get the measuring done. Scanner I was planning to use lives south of town--so THAT won't be an help AT ALL.

Housebound--but at least I still have y'all! And a gallon of milk, and two loaves of bread. First thing Southerners do when they predict frozen precipitationof any sort--we buy milk and bread...after 22 years down here I guess I've acclimated!


    Bookmark   January 27, 2004 at 8:07AM
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spectre(SZ 24, US 10b)

Hello Scott:

You are too kind and I really appreciate the props and your mistaken impression of me as a genius...idiot savant, maybe, genius, no. It's also been a pleasure reading your posts and I always enjoy your occasional lessons on Japanese garden design.

As to the wellspring of my ideas, its neither of the two people you suggested, though in my secret underground lair, consulting with my Number 2 man (his name...Number 2) has proven to be illuminating on occasion. Seriously, if it weren't for Asha's musings, I wouldn't have come up with that plan at all. The "genius" as you call it is self-taught from my seemingly endless reading of gardening/design books, and tours of gardens all over the world.

Scott, one thing I neglected to mention is that if you have any ideas, additions/subtractions or suggestions, please share them.

And Melanie, no worries...I used Corel Draw to generate the plan, which is a vector-based drawing program similar to Adobe Illustrator. Perhaps we should talk in real time and we can get you up to speed on scanners and available software. Stay warm!


    Bookmark   January 27, 2004 at 10:18AM
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mjsee(Zone 7b, NC)

UPDATE! talked to Scott on Friday--we came up with a plan. We will leave out the lower wall that frames the ramp and the ramp itself--and have it all be patio. Then, in a few years, (once I've saved up the cash!) we can come back and build the ramp. I've mislaid the revised estimate (I think it's hiding with Ginger's keys) but the WORST CASE SCENARIO (monetarily) was about $28,000.(I'm mentally rounding up.) I'm really pleased--will try and post a drawing in the next couple of days. Well I will TRY. What will PROBABLY happen is I'll end up e-mailing an attachment to Spectre, and I'll talk HIM into posting it! But I DO mean/need to learn to do these things myself!

Am hoping to get websites of paving manufacturers so y'all can see the materials...and I WILL invest in a digital camera--I promise.

    Bookmark   February 8, 2004 at 11:48AM
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saypoint(6b CT)

You don't need to buy a digital camera to post your pictures. Just have your film developer give you a CD with your pictures on it when you have your film processed. You can upload these to photobucket or another web site that stores your photos and link to them here on the forum.

    Bookmark   February 8, 2004 at 11:55AM
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Cady(6b/Sunset34 MA)

I'm delighted that you're making progress - with Scott's help. Waiting to see the updates.

Jo's suggestion for getting your regular photos put on CD is excellent. There are lots of free photo album sites on the 'net where you can upload photos, then make a link for people to view them. Let us know if you need a hand finding one.

    Bookmark   February 8, 2004 at 12:08PM
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mjsee(Zone 7b, NC)

Shhhh--Cady, Jo,
I'm looking for an EXCUSE to buy a digi. I know about getting the stuff done when I get my pics developed--I just want my own digital camera...but point taken!


    Bookmark   February 8, 2004 at 12:12PM
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Melanie - for goodness sake - if you're paying $20k+, your contractor should throw in a digital camera as a free bonus! You know, to document progress or something.
Glad it's coming together, or will as soon as things thaw.

    Bookmark   February 8, 2004 at 12:36PM
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mjsee(Zone 7b, NC)

Hey gang--Scott is coming by around 1PM EST--for the first check. Am trying NOT to freak--I've done my research, I like the design, the numbers are about right...BUT.

I am getting ready to write a fairly large check--AND my yard will be torn up for the next two or three months (depending on weather). YIKES!

At least this is OUTSIDE--we remodelled a kitchen, a bath, and ADDED a bath in our former residence--when The kids were 3 and 6, and my sister was living in our LR. AND the house was 1580 square feet. Total. SO--I can do this. Just send some positive energy this way, will you? I'll be sacrificing a lovely piece os stone and some sod to the garden gods next full moon...


    Bookmark   February 10, 2004 at 11:37AM
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Cady(6b/Sunset34 MA)

Be strong, gal! Remember the old saw... that everyone will drop a bundle on the house, but no one wants to spend a dime on landscaping! But you know better!

A mucked-up yard is not as bad as a torn-up kitchen or bathroom. And, your kids will someday have greater earning power to help their poor old parents out of debt!

Onward, to a sound and improved, renovated and updated LANDSCAPE!

    Bookmark   February 10, 2004 at 12:40PM
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mjsee(Zone 7b, NC)

Thanks Cady. I just get the heebie-jeebies whenever I write a check with more thatn two zeroes BEFORE the decimal point. I took some "before" pics on my print camera today--will be certain to tell them I want a digital CD when I have it developed.

I get to move the Rubbermaid Bike Barn this weekend.
The fun just NEVER stops!

OTOH--Scott promised to get rid of the privet, the icky railroad ties, and all that NAST "landscape stone". I am content.


    Bookmark   February 10, 2004 at 5:23PM
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Juno Track Lighting Trac-Lites Flared-Gimbal Black Light R530BL
$18.97 | Home Depot
Tay Tay Satin Nickel One-Light Halogen Wall Sconce with Cocoon Glass
$175.50 | Bellacor
Southern Enterprises Calvert Ivory Electric Fireplace - FA9279E
$499.98 | Hayneedle
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