Tabris/Raspberry Ice/Nicole= Hannah Gordon

Rgschwerdt(z5aillinois)February 17, 2004

Tabris / Raspberry Ice / Nicole = Hannah Gordon

The prime purpose of this post is to try an untangle some of the mystery and confusion, surrounding the floribunda roses; Hannah Gordon (KORweiso, Raspberry Ice) pb 1983; Nicole (KORicole) w 1985; Tabris (KORtabis, Raspberry Ice) pb 1989; and now Raspberry Ice (KORtabis) pb. Maybe, viewing the issue through the eyes of official American Rose Society "ARS" publications, can the problem be brought to a somewhat logical conclusion? Without question, ARS judges and exhibitors would appreciate resolving this controversial issue. The following is "my point of view on the existing situation".

Much research has been done on floribunda roses over past years. One problem encountered, was researching information on a rose named Tabris. (The particular issue was lost in a previous post, receiving limited exposure). E-mail received from rosarians, indicated they would like to see an end to a confusing situation and suggested a new post, hoping this would bring the entire issue to a head. Is Tabris the actual Approved Exhibition Name "AEN", or Raspberry Ice as indicated in Modern Roses "MR XI"? Further research could indicate that neither one is.

In trying to and make a little headway, it is hopped that every one would agree, that by all indications, the floribundas Nicole and Hannah Gordon could be one and the same rose? When these two roses are grown under similar environmental conditions, they have the same color; petal count; growth habit, etc. The only difference found after reviewing many ARS publications, is Nicole was introduced several years after Hannah Gordon. Reviewing three years of Proof of the Pudding "POP" / Roses In Review "RIR", comments received from reporters on Nicole and Hannah Gordon, all noted this similarity. Interesting is the fact that in 1998 and 1999 RIR, ARS National Coordinator pointed out to the public, that Tabris the rose being evaluated is different from Nicole and is more like Hannah Gordon. For most practical purposes, if something looks like a duck, waddles like a duck, quacks like a duck, you can be pretty sure its a duck. Now, to convince ARS to officially acknowledge itÂs a duck.

As for the cultivators Raspberry Ice and Tabris, these are but two of approximately 2500 unregistered roses in commerce listed in the 1993 MR X. Most were grandfathered in when MR XI was published in the spring of 2000. Looking in MR XI under Tabris indicates to see: KORtabis, which lists Raspberry Ice in bold type as the approved exhibition name "AEN". Looking under Raspberry Ice only refers you back to see: KORtabis. At the present time, no other link between Tabris and Raspberry Ice can be established.

Searching in MR X supplement 4, published in 1999. Containing corrections and updated information of all roses registered since the publication of MR X, shows any listing of Tabris.

Tabris was first listed in the 1996 handbook, but didnÂt receive a rating until 1999. Checking in ARS annuals from 1991/ 1995 indicated any listing of Tabris, in "POP" or in "New Roses of the World". You may ask, why all the confusion and so little information available on Tabris in any ARS official publications? Several possibilities exist. (A)-The rose was either not registered by ARS or published in an edition of MRs, but had been assigned an "ARS Exhibition Name" (B)-It is a synonym used in other countries, and sold in U. S. by that name. (C)- The rose has more than one official AEN assigned to it. (D)-The rose is an unregistered rose about ARS has never published any official data.

In "Parks Rose Guide", an official ARS publication in 1994, lists the alternate name of a rose and the correct name for a rose. For Tabris, it tells you to see: Hannah Gordon (as having the official designated "ARS Exhibition Name").

Searching in MR X (1993) appendix #1. Under cross-references of synonyms to official entries, lists references to the official registered name (they appear in bold type). Under Raspberry Ice, it tells you to see: Hannah Gordon (listed in bold type as having the official registered name).

In 1995 the ARS Board of Directors approved the following; starting in 1996 a rose no longer has to have a registered name to be exhibited in ARS shows. RoseÂs will be shown under "ARS

Exhibition Names", (which is generally the name it is sold by in U. S. commerce). The rose must also be recognized in the same publications recognized in the "Guidelines for Judging Roses"; this includes the Combined Rose List "CRL, (an Approved ARS publication). In all cases CRL lists the "ARS Exhibition Name" as its primary entry. An "ARS Exhibition Name", published in a recognized ARS approved publication is synonymous to the "ARS approved Exhibition Name" AEN, as we know it today.

Along with rule changes beginning in 1996, the Handbook for Selecting Roses was to contain the most up-to-date source of correct approved "ARS Exhibition Names". In 1997 the handbook changed and now was to contain only the roses in commerce in U. S. and Canada, plus any roses reported in the "Horizon Rose List" and by other importers of roses.

Tabris is listed in all ARS handbooks since 1996 as a pink blend floribunda. Appearing in "RIR" in the 1997, 1998 and 1999 rose surveys, receiving high ratings. In 1998 and 1999 it was considered one of the top 10 exhibition roses. So how did Tabris just appear out of no ware as part of "POP", and end up in the 1996 Handbook? One theory that makes sense, is in Edmunds roses 1994-1995 catalogues, is a beautiful photograph of a rose with an AEN of Tabris, code name (KORicole). "Knowing there was a controversy with the American Rose Society over the previous two years, that the rose was so similar to Hannah Gordon (KORweiso, Raspberry Ice). We decided not to get involved and just introduced it". This could prove to be a positive factor in answering the Tabris question. One scenario that seems very logical is after the 1994-1995 Edmunds catalogue was published listing Tabris, in conjunction with the new judging rules taking effect in January 1996. The Handbooks editor picked up on this unregistered rose Tabris, and listed it in the 1996 handbook?

The following year in Edmunds roses 1995-1996 catalogue, this same photograph appeared only with a different AEN, Nicole but the same code name (KORicole). "Admitting to the confusion they created the previous year with Tabris, went ahead and listed it under this new name".

On the cover of the 1996 American Rose magazine is the same photograph, only this time it is called Hannah Gordon. (It should be pointed out, the photograph constantly being referred to, is a winning slide from the 1993 ARS photo contest, and called Hannah Gordon). Inside the magazine is an article about the rose on the cover, an asked the question. "Who knows the difference between Hannah Gordon (KORweiso, Raspberry Ice), Nicole (KORicole), Tabris (KORtabis, Raspberry Ice)? "If you think you do, you are better than most rosarians. There are those that swear itÂs one and the same rose. ARS thus challenged its members to respond, if they think they can tell the difference". You do have to wonder, what rose was actually being evaluated by reporters in "RIR"?

Over the years, only three readers responded. A-One indicated "it appears to be the same picture as Nicole, in Edmunds catalogue". B-Another said, "He grows all three, between 5 and 7 years and indicates there is no difference. And it was time the sameness be acknowledged and one name be recognized". (C)- The only difference is in comparison, that "Nicole had a larger petal count and pink edges; Hannon Gordon has darker pink, reddish edges".

Modern Roses XI lists Nicole (w) having 35 petals, white with pink edges. Hannon Gordon (pb) having 35 petals with deep pink edges. Breeders have testified that color in a bloom varies by temperature, and color of the petal edges of many roses will intensify in bright sun. Many people are fully aware that the color of a rose when first introduced, is in some cases debatable, and many times the color classification of the rose is changed after becoming established. Several examples; In MR IX, Nicole is classified as a pink blend (pb) floribunda. The same with Hannah Gordon, when first appearing in the 1984 CRL, the nursery introducing it, classified it as white (w). Growing four Nicole roses from Edmunds roses and two Hannon Gordon roses from another source, found no difference between them, both are beautiful.

In 2000 ARS published the "Ultimate Rose". Listed on page 83 is (a reversed image) of this same photograph, its called Hannah Gordon. Readily seen from the various episodes listed, as long as these roses are sold and exhibited as Hannah Gordon, Nicole, or Tabris, and now referred to as Raspberry Ice in MR XI, confusion will always be the norm. Without ARS getting involved the issue will only intensity, it definitely is not going to subside by its self.

The more involved you become in this issue; the sooner you realize that all roses in question could be the same rose. Unless ARS is absolute, and can substance ate that Hannah Gordon; Nicole; Tabris or Raspberry Ice; are different cultivars, ARS should consider Hannah Gordon, as the rose having the official AEN in U. S. The next logical step is to instigate the initial steps required, in making such a transition official. What problems could be encountered, that is as bad as confusion now existing among judges, exhibitors, and nurseries? After 10 years, "this can only prove to be a step in the right direction"

Has the paper trail ended, we will have to wait and see? With all reported information derived from official ARS publications. It could well be that Hannah Gordon code name (KORweiso), is the pb floribunda W. Kordes hybridized in 1983, regardless of what name nurseries sell it under. This is not the first time a mix up in naming a rose had accrued, and it will not be the last. Infallibility is a goal at many rose nurseries, which has yet to be achieved. As one knowledgeable rosarian put it, how can anyone forget the saga involving Uncle Joe and Toro?

In 1996 when the new rules on exhibiting officially started, the handbook was considered the best authority for ARS Exhibition Names. Along with the transition, (& ARS Exhibition Names) appeared on its cover, remaining there until 1999 when MR XI was published in the spring of 2000. In March 2001 ARS published its first "AEN", this was considered the new leader in verifying an "AEN". Containing the latest varieties, both registered and unregistered, designating their Approved Exhibition names, corrections, changes, and information from previous Modern Roses and other ARS official publications. With all the information the AEN was to contain, it was suggested several years ago to add a roses petal count, it could eliminate a judges need to carry the handbook.

With the words (& ARS Exhibition Names) removed from the 2000 handbooks cover, it lost its identity; ARS no longer considered it the best place to verify an AEN. At the present time if a

rose is not listed in the latest AEN, and the latest handbook may not be correct, the next logical place to look would be in MR XI. The CRL would be of little use, being ARS mandates there publications takes precedence in case of a conflict. Although in 2003 the CRL did receive a substantial workout.

With the handbook relinquishing its official status in 1999 as the number one source for official AENs. Its editor in a related matter on the handbooks use, posted this on the Garden Web (GW) "Rose Exhibitors and Judging Forum": "We need to remember that the primary purpose of the "Handbook for Selecting Roses" is to help the general rose grower in deciding upon roses to purchase and grow. Its primary purpose is not to assist judges and exhibitors. That is the purpose of the Official List of Approved Exhibition Names "AEN". Two entirely different publications, with entirely different purposes". It may be advantageous to ARS, in the 2005 handbook along with its primary purpose; it also indicates what the handbook is not. Some judges and exhibitors are not fully aware, since 1996 several major changes in judging had accrued in 2000. As it reads now, many people assume the handbook is still the prime exhibiting reference to verify an "ARS Exhibition Name" as in past years.

In conclusion, several questions seem appropriate to address at this time. When MR XI was published in 2000 listing Raspberry Ice as having the recognized AEN, Tabris should no longer been listed as having an AEN. 1-Why were the names Raspberry Ice and Tabris omitted from the ARS 2001 and 2002 official "AEN" publications, and indicated a change in AENs had taken place? 2-Why is Raspberry Ice not listed in the latest handbook as having an AEN, and Tabris removed in order to conform to the listing in MR XI? It would seem ARS remain consistent in their official publications, right or wrong. This could account for the incidences listed below.

The latest Rose Exhibitors Forum "REF" publication indicated in 2003, Tabris received the "ARS Best Floribunda Spray Certificate" at a show. In 2002, Tabris was awarded the certificate several more times at various rose shows around the country. Why after MR XI was published showing a status change with Tabris, would judges award an "ARS Best Floribunda Spray Certificate" to a rose no longer designated as having the official AEN? It could be, judges used information contained in the handbook as their main source of reference.

To avoid further problems using ARS publications as official references, it is imperative clarification from ARS on the many questions and issues are fully addressed at this time. This would be greatly appreciated, and extremely helpful to everyone involved in exhibiting. Some may perceive this post as addressing several issues; in essence all are someway related to the prime purpose of the post. This post it is not to fault anyone, merely document some important findings. That will have a positive impact on finding a solution to a long over-due and necessary correction, "that could be the beginning of the end for a rose named Tabris". (1-12-04)

Ronald Schwerdt

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peter_rabbit(z9 So. Calif.)

Thanks for all the research you've done Ronald.

What does the Kordes Company have to say about all this? Have they released a letter or a statement sorting out the confusion they created?

Maybe it's all a publicity stunt to sell more roses or perhaps a lingering joke to exhibitors and judges.

A sad thing...

    Bookmark   February 17, 2004 at 7:37PM
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ron_gregory(z10 So.Ca. Inld)

Does not Kordes have pictures and descriptions of the roses with the code names in question?

    Bookmark   February 18, 2004 at 6:01PM
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Photographs, code names, and AENs are taken from Edmunds Roses 1994-1995 and 1995-1996
Catalogues. All information and comments regarding Tabris and Nicole, is word for word what is in the two catalogues and is by Edmunds Roses.

    Bookmark   February 24, 2004 at 7:11PM
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Donswanson_nebr(z5 OmahaNebr)

I purchased Nicole from Edmunds in the 96 - 97 time frame. It is grown where it receives shade in the late afternoon. I have at times entered some great sprays as Nicole. If no other Nicole is entered, mine wins. If another Nicole is entered, mine is seen to be a lighter pink and is usually disqualified as not being correctly named, or receives a white ribbon enven though it's the better spray - the judges have never been able to offer an opinion as to what they believe the rose really is. Which of the many names used above is a lighter pink - if any?
Don Swanson

    Bookmark   February 25, 2004 at 9:21AM
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ron_gregory(z10 So.Ca. Inld)

The Nicole I have from Edmunds has dark edges most of the time but depending on the temp it will lighten up slightly. The Nicole I received from Hortico years ago grew to a 10' monster and hardly ever sprayed, the blooms were a light off pink with barely a darker edge. I entered it in show and the Judges didn't know what it was, but they said it wasn't Nicole. I had a Judge tell me she ordered Nicole directly from Kordes when it was first introduced and that the rose most of us believe is Nicole (dark red edging) is not Nicole, but either Hannah Gordon or Tabris.

    Bookmark   February 25, 2004 at 3:54PM
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I have grown plants I received as Nicole and Hannah Gordon well over 10 years ago. My Hannah Gordon grows rampantly and has blooms with red edges and maybe 10-15 petals that come in small clusters. My Nicole is never more than 3-4 feet tall, the blooms have soft pink edges and have enough petals that I once won best floribunda with HT form with it. It sometimes blooms in small clusters. I have heard these are closer to the original descriptions from Kordes, but I have seen nothing in writing.

I don't think there is much question the rose Edmunds is selling is not Nicole. However, I don't know what it is. This whole thing is a big mess. I have seen entries in shows that looked almost the same as far as blooms as foliage, but carried different names. However, there were clear differences in the prickles.

I don't believe there is much the ARS can do about this right now. They can't just arbitrarily say that everything is Hannah Gordon, for instance. All three cultivars have been registered and do exist. Only Kordes could say for sure which is which and they don't seem interested. I suspect we will be living with this one for some time yet. I would hope judges won't be too hard line about identity when they don't really know which is which either.

    Bookmark   February 25, 2004 at 5:52PM
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ARS should contact Kordes and ask them to unravel the mystery.

    Bookmark   March 10, 2004 at 9:25AM
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While ARS has no control over the issue in question, it does over the following.

As editor of the Handbook for Selecting Roses, would you explain to ARS members why Tabris is listed in the 2001 through 2004 handbooks as having an Approved Exhibition Name "AEN"? When MR XI was published in 2000, "Raspberry Ice" was in bold type indicating it as having the "AEN"; the name Tabris was history, no longer having an "AEN". Why was Raspberry not listed in any these later handbooks indicating this?

As a member of the ARS Board, have you any information why Raspberry Ice or Tabris was not listed in either the 2001 or 2002 AEN publications? Why no 2003 AEN was published, even though it was set to go to the printer?

Could there be a connection between the above two situations with the new guideline now stating that the latest approved ARS publication will take preference? That being the 2004 handbook or in 2000 it was MR XI published after the 2000 handbook.A

At this point what publication does ARS want judges and exhibitors to follow? "Tabris" as listed in the 2004 handbook or MR XI showing "Raspberry Ice" as having the Approved Exhibition Name, and not "Tabris"?

Ron S.

    Bookmark   March 11, 2004 at 7:45PM
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The 2004 Official List will be available in April. It is being laid out and checked right now. As the latest and most complete publication it will supercede all previous ARS publications and will be the primary source for AENs.

The new OL will show Raspberry Ice as the AEN and Tabris as "See Raspberry Ice". The Handbook published this fall will do the same. Thus this part of the bigger Nicole, Hannah Gordon, etc. problem will be resolved.

By the way, the 2003 Official List was never "set to go to the printer". A very preliminary version had enough problems that we felt it was better to just not publish it that year and get things together for this year. That we have done.

    Bookmark   March 12, 2004 at 12:10AM
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ken_se_fl(9 SE, Fl.)

A subject after my own heart!! I've been squaking about this for several years. I won't go into detail, but everyone that has been on this forum since the beginning knows how I feel about this mess. Hanna Gordon is Hanna Gordon! Nicole is Nicole! Two different types of bushs, two different types of flowers. This has been a thorn in my foot for a longggggg time. It would be nice if the ARS would clear up this mess. Sorry I pulled this back up. I've been without a computere for about 7 months and just got back on line early today. Did a little searching and found this post and felt the thorn dig in to my foot real good.

    Bookmark   May 12, 2004 at 9:42PM
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beberose(SoCal 9)

Well here is another one. I was at the San Diego Convention Rose Show and noticed a Nichol in the wrong place (the judging was over) I looked down to see who's it was and the name for the rose was MILAN??????? I looked at it for a very long time. Now I have 4 Nichols in my yard and I kept thinking to myself, "Wow, that really looks like Nichole!" I was also thinking the person had miss named it. Well I went home and looked on Boy Howdy! It was there and looked just like Nichol. Then I started looking around and that is when I found Hanna Gordon. Now I knew that in New Zealand they call the rose, we know as Nichol, as Raspberry Ice. I figured, that maybe in other countries, they call their roses by what they want to call them. But, Where did Tabris and Hannah Gordon come into play. You are very correct when you stated this is a real mess.


    Bookmark   May 18, 2004 at 4:27PM
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peter_rabbit(z9 So. Calif.)

I showed a one to stem 'Milan' at the recent Nationals. If it was a spray, it probably was shown by my top exhibitor friend who lives in Santa Clarita. Got it as a raffle plant from the Santa Clarita RS meeting. It is a Floribunda that originated from Freedom Gardens which is Peter and Susan Schneider's nursery. It is hybridized by Paul Jerabek.

    Bookmark   May 18, 2004 at 6:25PM
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beberose(SoCal 9)

Pete, now I am wondering if what I saw was a spray???? God I just can't remember, I thought it was a spray, but maybe it was yours. What did you think of the convention. Did you win anything. Did you like the hotel grounds. I am with the SDRS. We had so much fun getting ready for that convention. My house was on the garden tours in SD, did you happen to attend? Do you like your Milan, would you recommend it to someone as a rose they should have?

    Bookmark   May 19, 2004 at 10:04AM
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ron_gregory(z10 So.Ca. Inld)

Checking the Kordes website the rose that they have a picture of as Nicole the Floribunda does look like what most of us believe is Nicole, but pictures can be deceiving. Kordes has a bad habit of using the same names over and over again for different roses. Now he has a Valencia again with a different code name.

    Bookmark   May 20, 2004 at 12:53AM
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john_mitchie(8 WA)

This has been a sore subject for years -- all this arguing about what is what. No one really seems to know and Kordes doesn't seem to care that we have a problem with them. Ken in SE FL is right. Hanna Gordon is Hanna Gordon, Nicole is Nicole, Tabris is Tabris, etc. The easiest way to handle this is just to accept what the exhibitor puts on the tag!! That's the name the exhibitor has when he/she pruchased it. This is what we do here in the PNW and it works just fine.

    Bookmark   May 20, 2004 at 3:09AM
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The picture of Milan does not look anything like
Nicole/Hanna Gordon/Tabris/Raspberry Ice.........In my
humble opinion, that is. Milan looks much darker in
the picture.

Coastal Long Beach

    Bookmark   May 21, 2004 at 12:34PM
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Your solution sounds simple; but is it solving a problem or just per longing one? If ARS wants judges to abide by this solution they should say so, and than all judges will be using the same procedure when judging. You have to question is it fair to all exhibitors or even in accordance with what the Guidelines mandates?

For an example, take a challenge class that specifies three floribundas sprays, all different varieties. With overall appearance being a prime element in judging challenge classes and carries with it an extra 30 points. This includes a pleasing color combination, uniformity of bloom form and degree of openness. Showing three Hannah Gordons etc. all from the same plant, calling one "Hannah Gordon", one "Raspberry Ice" and one "Nicole". More likely assures you of winning with this combination, than a collection of three floribundas sprays all of different varieties as the challenge called for. Is would more likely be the winning challenge, but is this fair to other exhibitors in the challenge class?

Because an exhibitor received a rose from a nursery called "Tabris", entering it under that name as suggested. Is not in compliance with the latest ARS "AEN" publication, using only the official approved exhibition name, "Raspberry Ice".

Ron Schwerdt

    Bookmark   May 21, 2004 at 2:02PM
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john_mitchie(8 WA)


Yes, you are correct in that it just prolongs the problem, but there seems to be no solution on the immediate horizon. In the meantime, we have had some judges attempt to DQ an entry because the coloration does not match the one that they grow. But then one might ask is the one the judge grows the correct name? A few years ago we had some exhibitors just livid after a show when they found out all the arguing, etc by the judges. They challenged each judge to come to their garden and identify that bush once and for all. The response -- "Well, we just don't know for sure." Is it fair for the exhibitor? If I recall, it was after one of these incidents that the word was given in one of the judges audits to accept what the exhibitor called it on his/her entry tag. We haven't had any repeats of that incident. Maybe one day..............

    Bookmark   May 21, 2004 at 3:52PM
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The only time I saw one of them DQed was in a show where there were six Nicoles entered. Five of them had the same foliage and prickles, while the sixth had prickles that were much different. Needless to say, it was the sixth that was disqualified. While it is possible that it was the only one correctly named, the preponderance of the evidence in that case was that the five were probably right. (I think I might have just not given it a ribbon and raised the question, but not DQed it.)

Short of this situation, I just don't see how the judges can disqualify an entry when none of us knows for sure what each of the three cultivars looks like in detail.

    Bookmark   May 21, 2004 at 11:41PM
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john_mitchie(8 WA)

Good point - it's easier to see the color variations in a local show where the growing conditions are more similar. But in a National show -- it's almost impossible. When the National Mini Show was held in Boston a few years ago, after the show I gathered all the X-Rated minis together. There were some from all over the US from CA to MA and many locations in between. The difference in color was that it was difficult to tell what rose it was. Mitchie and I once lost a Jan Shivers because the judges didn't believe that one of our entries was a Rainbow's End as it had a few red specks on the petals, but that's the way it grows for us here in the PNW. It was just to see how different a rose can look when it comes from an entirely different growing climate. With Tabris, Nicole, Hanna Gordon, etc -- it appears to be a similar situation -- coloration. Would love to meet someone who can tell which is which. Solution??? Ideas???

    Bookmark   May 22, 2004 at 1:56AM
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