Does This Seem Fair, Part 2

Rgschwerdt(z5aillinois)July 10, 2007

Interesting how simple questions posted can be twisted, projecting individual ideologies, and away from original point in question. The basis question simple was, should individual exhibitors be penalized, because ARS does not have time to publish changes on a timely basis? Precisely what had accrued. The posted question was to seek positive constructive criticism from RC members, and help ARS solve a continuous ongoing problem . No one except Bob Martin Jr. came up with any type constructive dialogue towards a solution. ARS problems cannot be solved if not openly discussed, or individuals freedom of speech is restricted or removed like in 3RD world countries.

Jolene let me point out, it was never stated or implied judges used MR 12 per sa, only MR 12 database, as explained to exhibitor by judges. Yes exhibitors could have purchased ARS 2007 OL. But would you buy a publication, knowing itâÂÂs missing 310 of the 489 registered roses in 2006, along with other errors? Or that in four or five months it would be obsolete. Also FYI, a hybridizer can change classification of a rose by producing a proper rational. ARS would be contacted to request the change, but its still the âÂÂClassification Committeeâ that usually approves it.

Even if exhibitors used the 2007 OL listing Olive as a shrub, would that make it absolute and ARS correct in making a classification change? In 2006 OL Olive (HARpillar) is listed as a Fl, mr 1982, in the 2007 OL its changed to a shrub. To complicate matters apparently Harkness has another Olive, Cat # (cloliv10) classed as a shrub mr, 1992. Is there the slightest possibility that when ARS âÂÂClassification Committeeâ reviewed roses prior to printing MR 12, a mix up accrued? If the latest entry in MR 12 database was Aug 29, 2006 and list Olive as a shrub, why was it not included in the Nov 2006 âÂÂRose magazine with other rose changes? Only time will tell.

The Combined Rose List is made up of nurseries latest 2007 catalogues, it show Olive (HARpillar) as a Fl mr, 1982, still is in commerce in NA. The last time Olive (HARpillar) appeared in the Handbook was 1999 in a RIR report as a Fl., without a rating.



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the_bustopher z6 MO

I would suggest a couple of options for this, for what they are worth. I would write ARS for a determination of just what the classification of that rose should be. It might be that the hybridizer changed his mind and wanted it left as a floribunda since it is up to the hybridizer to decide what the rose is. Anything is possible. The other possibility is to just not show it until the dust settles. Keep it in your garden for your own enjoyment until you can get a final determination from ARS as to what the fate of this rose should be. You might have to show it by its code name of HARpillar. Realistically I think that the most recent publication on this rose from ARS is the official word, and you would probably have to show it as a floribunda.

    Bookmark   August 2, 2007 at 11:06PM
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As I have explained to Ron, as part of our research for Modern Roses 12 we went back and checked all the published registration records from the past. When we did, we found Olive had been registered as a Shrub. We contacted Harkness to ask if they had ever requested a change in the registration to floribunda. They assured us they had not made such a request at any time. Thus the registered classification of Olive is Shrub, and the ARS has no authority to overrule the hybridizer and change it. That is why Olive was listed in the 2007 Official List as a Shrub and why it will be listed as a Shrub in Modern Roses 12.

We have no idea how the classification got off the track some time in the past, since we weren't involved at that point. A good guess is that someone saw it being sold as a floribunda and thought they should change the classification in ARS publications. However, this was an error as the hybridizer did not request this change, and only the hybridizer can do so. In any case, we now have the classification of Olive back where it belongs, and it must be shown as a Shrub.

    Bookmark   August 9, 2007 at 10:20PM
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For ARS members benefit, it might give some thought to the following proposal. Bob Martin planted the seed by suggesting changes to roses are put on hold for several years, giving the public time to adjust. While the idea has merit is not very practical for various reasons, from database confusion to various rose publications.

ARS âÂÂRose magazines âÂÂRose Registrationâ column was established ONLY to provide information to the ARS members on new registrations, not to service exhibitors. Now they cut that to six issues. Typical to ARS Handbook, primarily for new rose growers looking for roses that will grow well in their garden, not for exhibitors per se.

The reason Olive was not in the Rose magazines âÂÂRose Registrationâ column, is because it was registered as a shrub, and not a change in registration, or a new registration. After approximately 25 years registered as a floribunda by ARS, it would only seem fair members are advised of a change in the âÂÂRoseâ magazine.

The question ARS should ask itself, exactly what publication comes with membership in ARS, keeping itâÂÂs members up to date on a timely basis? None. While computers are the wave of the future, members without one, no longer can depend on ARS publications and must purchase the OL and MR 12, even they are not up to date.

Would suggest when a change in a roses status takes place that prior to DQ the rose, a change is noted in an official ARS publication members receive as part of being an ARS member. ItâÂÂs been said why be a ARS member, when additional publications must be purchased to exhibit your roses.

    Bookmark   August 10, 2007 at 7:06PM
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