Firefighter - HT/2003

Rachel_SoCalSeptember 8, 2004

Is anyone growing this rose and if so what are your experiences. When responding, please indicate how long you've been growing it and in what climate.

Thx

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diane_nj 6b/7a

Here are two older threads, but an update from those who grow it would be good:
What's the Scoop on Firefighter and Neptune?
Firefighter

I saw a couple of entries this past June, the blooms were small and the form questionable, but it is fragrant and may do OK in the "Open Bloom" class.

    Bookmark   September 8, 2004 at 4:39PM
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phil_schorr(z6St.Louis)

Again, please note there are two different HTs being sold as Firefighter. The first came from Ben Williams and Hortico. It was released in early 2003 and is classed as a medium red. This year Edmunds released the Orard rose Hacienda under the name Firefighter. It is classed as a dark red. As I read the question from Rachel, she is asking about the Ben Williams/Hortico rose. Right, Rachel?

    Bookmark   September 8, 2004 at 6:51PM
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Rachel_SoCal

Hi Phil,

No, actually, I was asking about the Edmunds' rose. I recently received his catalog and saw it pictured there. Sorry for the confusion. But as I read your post, you state "Edmunds released the Orard rose Hacienda under the name Firefighter." This now brings another question to mind. Since there are now two "Firefighter" roses, but one is really named Hacienda, how will this play out at the shows? Does the Hacienda rose have to be shown as Hacienda or?????

    Bookmark   September 8, 2004 at 8:07PM
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ron_gregory(z10 So.Ca. Inld)

Rachel, I have two Firefighters (from Edmunds), they blow wide open fast. I had one at the Inland Rose Show this year and it won most fragrant. I have them in 5 gal pots and will move them to larger ones when the weather cools down. There is a bloom with good form on a bush right now but it won't hold for another minute. I believe I've had them a year. It may do fine on your side of the hills.

    Bookmark   September 8, 2004 at 9:44PM
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Rachel_SoCal

Thanks for the info, Ron. If you're interested in selling me one of yours, I'm willing to give it a shot :-)

    Bookmark   September 8, 2004 at 10:29PM
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ron_gregory(z10 So.Ca. Inld)

You can have one for free Rachel. The next time you and Phil come over the hills come by and pick it up. Just give me a call first.

    Bookmark   September 9, 2004 at 12:20AM
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phil_schorr(z6St.Louis)

Marily Young and I are discussing the AENs for the Firefighter roses right now. I'm inclined to say the Edmunds rose should be shown as Hacienda, but I'm not sure how it is going to come out. We will let everyone know when we know. Of course, if Hortico drops the Williams rose soon, that would probably solve the dilemma.

    Bookmark   September 9, 2004 at 12:27AM
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Rachel_SoCal

Thanks everyone for all the info you have provided.

Ron -- how generous of you. I'll be giving you a call :-)

Phil -- Yes, it would seem to make sense to have Hacienda as the AEN for the Orard rose and leave the the Williams rose as Firefighter since they apparently selected that name first.

    Bookmark   September 9, 2004 at 8:21AM
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Chris_Greenwood

Hi Rachel - the Edmund's Firefighter was in the 2001 AARS test garden. In Carlsbad, it was okay but I never really saw 'Queen'. Good fragrance. Thought the foliage was to small with to much spacing between them. Also had some mildew and rust problems.

Regarding the AEN - Did Edmunds register it as Firefighter or Hacienda and/or did Orard register it? Would seem to me that there would be a lot of confusion if exibitors purchased it as Firefighter and then had to show it as Hacienda. Edmund's 'Firefighter' is also trademarked where the William's rose is not. But then since they are both red HTs this does present a problem. Where's Solomon when you need him.

    Bookmark   September 12, 2004 at 10:27AM
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phil_schorr(z6St.Louis)

Actually, it was registered as ORAdal. Once it is registered under a code name the sellers can use any name they want in the marketplace. That leaves us trying to keep up and assign AENs that make sense and aren't confusing. Not an easy task the way sellers reuse names and assign three or four names to the same rose for use in different countries. The system is a mess, but we can't resolve it so long as the introducers insist they must use code names to protect their trademarked names. Things would clear up a great deal if we could convince them to stop using code names to register their roses.

    Bookmark   September 12, 2004 at 12:37PM
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Chris_Greenwood

Well - this an issue with trademark and patent laws and since rose exhibition is a very, very minor part of the rose industry's business, I doubt if you'll see any change.

So having a cadre of well-informed judges is paramount so they can tell the difference from 'Firefighter' from Edmunds and 'Firefighter' from Williams.

    Bookmark   September 12, 2004 at 1:03PM
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Rachel_SoCal

Chris states in part:

"So having a cadre of well-informed judges is paramount so they can tell the difference from 'Firefighter' from Edmunds and 'Firefighter' from Williams."

Oyyyy ... I changed my mind. It is woman's prerogative, right? After reading some not-so-glowing reports here and having discussed it with yet others who don't speak terribly well of it, I sent Ron an e-mail saying basically, "thanks for the offer, but I'll pass" :-)

    Bookmark   September 12, 2004 at 5:47PM
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Chris_Greenwood

Phil - I just checked recent rose registrations and the Edmunds 'Firefighter' is the AEN for Hacienda. I do not see any reference to the Williams 'Firefighter'. So it appears that the notation in the Combined Rose List in incorrect or at least not current.

    Bookmark   September 19, 2004 at 1:01PM
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phil_schorr(z6St.Louis)

The Williams 'Firefighter' is not registered. However, it was listed in the 2004 Handbook for Selecting Roses, thus it has an AEN. I have some hope we are on the way to resolving this mess. I will let everyone know when and if we can get it straightened out.

    Bookmark   September 19, 2004 at 11:29PM
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Chris_Greenwood

I think the solution is to let it takes its course and since they are both different shades of red, it shouldn't be too difficult to tell them apart.

    Bookmark   September 22, 2004 at 9:27AM
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PetRose(Gilbert AZ)

From what I have heard and can tell, the only place you're going to find the Edmunds Firefighter on the show tables is in the fragrance class and its strong scent is going to be hard to miss.

    Bookmark   September 23, 2004 at 12:46AM
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harlane1(6)

Has anyone seen or grown the Williams FIREFIGHTER?
Frank B

    Bookmark   September 23, 2004 at 3:57PM
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Chris_Greenwood

Okay - what gives here?!
I just downloaded the Recent Rose Registration pages off the ARS website. On the 'offical' registration pages the AEN for the Edmund's rose is 'Firefighter'.

Now enter the 2005 Handbook for Selecting Roses. For the Edmund's Firefighter it says see Hacienda.

So I ask -- which is correct? Or are they both correct? If the Handbook is correct -- how can ARS just change the AEN as submitted by Edmunds? Seems to me a little high handed. If that were my variety - I might be just a little annoyed!

Here is a link that might be useful: Recent Rose Registrations

    Bookmark   October 2, 2004 at 9:35PM
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phil_schorr(z6St.Louis)

The AEN is a name assigned by the ARS. The introducer does not submit a requested AEN. In fact, most introducers don't care in the slightest whether their roses are exhibited. The concept of AENs came about when the ARS agreed to allow non-registered roses to be exhibited in rose shows, a request that came from the exhibitors. Since each rose had to have one name that would always be used for it in rose shows, no matter under which name it was purchased, the concept of AEN (Approved Exhibition Name)was born.

The final AENs for the two Firefighters is not settled. When we can work out a solution that seems to make sense, I will publish it here to let you all know. We are working on it.

    Bookmark   October 2, 2004 at 11:03PM
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Chris_Greenwood

Phil - let me get this correct.

A rose that has been officially registered with a requested AEN of Firefighter can have its AEN changed to another name without the permission of the registrant?

We never did this when I was on the registration committee.

    Bookmark   October 2, 2004 at 11:13PM
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phil_schorr(z6St.Louis)

The registrant does not request an AEN. It is not part of the registration process. The registrant supplies the name that is to be the registered name (often a code name) and any commercial synonyms or trademarked names. That is the extent of the naming part of registration.

Once the rose is registered the Registration Committee assigns an AEN. It is usually quite simple, but there are times when it is not at all simple as in this case.

During the 1990s only registered roses could be exhibited and the registered name was the name under which the rose was shown (remember Kingig?). When non-registered roses such as Veteran's Honor (Five Roses Rose)came on the scene in South Africa and elsewhere, exhibitors wanted to show them. They eventually convinced the ARS Board to change the rules and allow non-registered roses to be exhibited. When this happened the ARS had to come up with a system to make sure the same rose wasn't shown under three different names that originated in different countries. The solution was the AEN. This is a name the ARS assigns. It typically is the commercial synonym, but things become more complicated when the rose has more than one synonym or another rose already has that name as its AEN.

It really has nothing to do with the registration process. The registration form does not have a place for the registrant to indicate the AEN, and most couldn't care less.

    Bookmark   October 5, 2004 at 12:42AM
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Chris_Greenwood

Getting back to the two 'Firefighter' roses -- I can't speak for Phil Edmunds, but since he does sell a lot of his roses to exhibitors, I would think he would be rather annoyed about having his 'Firefighter' having a different AEN. Did anyone from the Registration Committee have the courtesy to contact him?

I still don't understand how the AEN as published on the ARS website can be changed to another. At least shouldn't that be changed as well?

    Bookmark   October 6, 2004 at 9:20AM
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cactusjoe1

would it be feasible to call them "Firefighter (Willliams)" and "Firefighter (Edmunds)"? I suppose not - that will be free advertising to the rose nurseries and the aiding and abating of commercialisation on Rose exhibition.

    Bookmark   October 6, 2004 at 5:27PM
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phil_schorr(z6St.Louis)

We have contacted Phil Edmunds and are attempting to contact Ben Williams. I said we were working on it.

    Bookmark   October 7, 2004 at 11:58PM
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Chris_Greenwood

Has anyone seen the Williams 'Firefighter'? At least we know that the Edmund's variety is a commercial one and has been registered with ARS AND is available.

I would refer you to Field 7, on the registration form, where it asks trademarks. In the Edmunds catalog he indicates the this is the trademarked name. Now -- do we ignore the Trademarked name because of a 'phantom rose'?

    Bookmark   October 8, 2004 at 9:25AM
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ron_gregory(z10 So.Ca. Inld)

I'm showing the ORAdal Firefighter at shows now, and have not been DQ'd yet.

    Bookmark   October 11, 2004 at 10:55PM
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deborah2003

Ron are you showing it as Firefigher or as Hacienda (as listed in the 2003 Handbook for Selecting Roses)?

    Bookmark   October 12, 2004 at 7:40AM
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ron_gregory(z10 So.Ca. Inld)

As Firefighter.

    Bookmark   October 12, 2004 at 10:34AM
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PRO
Sophie Wheeler

Williams Firefighter is available from Hortico, so it is in no way a "phantom". Now whether or not it will be around in 5 years like so many of his others aren't, only time will tell. I'm betting "Hacienda" still will be, if only because of it's fragrance.

Registering roses has become increasingly unimportant to many hybridizers and even large firms like J&P. They can still sell as many roses as the market will bear without it. Yes, it can cause confusion as to which rose is what, but it's only a very small percentage of rose purchasers who exhibit anyway, or even grow roses well enough to even know that they even have names, so it doesn't really impact them economically. And nowadays it would have to significantly affect the bank balance before they're going to change their practices.

    Bookmark   October 13, 2004 at 2:46AM
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