roundup - too early?

carob(z6 Utah)April 2, 2005

I've been told that for Roundup to be effective I should wait until our average daytime temperature is in the 70's.

Is that correct or can I start using it now...I have a large privacy berm that is covered with weeds that I would love to spray asap before I start planting.

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mowdy(z5 CO)

In the 70s sounds a little high to me. My understanding is that you should use Roundup when the weeds have foliage and are growing vigorously. To get a read on the temperature situation, you might call the Roundup information line at 1-800-225-2883.

    Bookmark   April 2, 2005 at 10:23AM
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Rosa(4ish CO Rockie)

Over 50 is fine but 70 degrees is better.
However, mowdy is right the weeds should be growing well and do not cut them before spraying.
Below is the link for all Monsanto labels and MSDS.

Here is a link that might be useful: Roundup Labels + MSDS

    Bookmark   April 2, 2005 at 11:54AM
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carob(z6 Utah)

Thanks Moudy and Rosa for the info. It sounds like I should maybe wait another week or two or even more for it to be as effective as possible. I hate respraying!...and that stuff is expensive for the large area I have to cover.

    Bookmark   April 2, 2005 at 10:43PM
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Rosa(4ish CO Rockie)

The cooler the temps the longer it will take to be absorbed-to a point. It will still take somewhere between 7-10 days even at optimal temps to see damage and longer for death to occur. So don't reapply for at least 3 weeks if you are doing early spring spraying in your area where temps are still onthe cool side.
Give the chemical the time it needs to work. Also a good surfactant and mixing to the right strength for your site and plants will go along way to not having to do the job repeatedly.

    Bookmark   April 3, 2005 at 8:32AM
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Bdadawg(z5 UT)

I sprayed some weeds last week. Temp was in 50's or so. Everything was going good til it snowed. Now they are just wilted.

The reason for the 70's temp is water intake is higher at higher temp. Thus the weeds are going to take in more of the roundup faster. At lower temps it will usually take repeated sprayings to achieve the same results.

The only reason i sprayed this early is that my father-in-law noticed i had bindweed in a bed i was preparing to be raised. Wated to see if i could knock some of it down before being covered with compost/topsoil mix.


    Bookmark   April 6, 2005 at 10:22AM
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This is the one time of the year that I don't mind weeding. Cool temps and soft soil make for a pleasant experience. Besides, there's not a lot else to do in the yard. I've already made two lengthy weeding sojourns around the garden. Some of those weeds stick down 12" roots during the winter. Get em now while you can, especially in those places that make spraying chemicals tricky in a few months.

    Bookmark   April 6, 2005 at 1:44PM
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I hate to be the only one to complain around here, but using chemicals such as roundup not only poisons the ground you garden in but it runs off into your neighbors yard and causes ground water contamination. More pesticide residues end up in our lakes and streams from domestic use than from farming. Most people using yard chemicals apply way to much and pose hazards for everything in this world. Have a nice day =)

    Bookmark   April 6, 2005 at 2:14PM
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delray(z5 UT)

I understand Roundup actually contains Glyphosate and oxidizes into a harmless form within a very short time (a google search will prove this out from many reputable, unbiased sources).

That is why it needs to make its way into the plant quickly. It is an urban myth (kind of like the fear of Microwave ovens in the 70's) that it is passed on like DDT (an organic compout) or heavy metals.

The salts and chemicals in common fertilizers actually can have a more detrimental effect on the environment (when overused).

Here is one article, but there are many more...

    Bookmark   April 6, 2005 at 4:43PM
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I sprayed cheat grass and thistle today, and by the late afternoon, it was showing. High was in the mid-60's.

    Bookmark   April 6, 2005 at 10:53PM
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Rosa(4ish CO Rockie)

"I hate to be the only one to complain around here, but using chemicals such as roundup not only poisons the ground you garden in but it runs off into your neighbors yard and causes ground water contaminatio..."

Then don't. Or suggest other methods to the poster.
Delray is correct. The active ingredient of roundup is bound by soil in a very short time and is not very mobile thru the soil into neighbors yards or groundwater when used as directed..

    Bookmark   April 7, 2005 at 7:20AM
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well what ever happened to free speach!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Bookmark   April 10, 2005 at 6:40PM
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Rosa(4ish CO Rockie)

No offense Sunshine but there are alot of people who come to this forum seeking chemical advise for weed control.
Some are fine with it and some are not but do offer alternatives then to the chemical control.
I agree that people use way too may chemicals, use them carelessly and many times do not even bother to read the labels, but the info you gave was not accurate, either.
Remember that this is not the organic gardening forum ;^)

    Bookmark   April 10, 2005 at 8:36PM
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If you're anti-chemical, you do your argument little credit by spouting fear stories like "roundup not only poisons the ground you garden in but it runs off into your neighbors yard and causes ground water contamination."

    Bookmark   April 11, 2005 at 1:48PM
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so when do fellow gardeners attack their friends. Who is to say what is a biased article and what is not. Denmark has banned chemicals (like roundup ready) for containing Glyphosate which contaminates ground water. Google roundup ready contamination and you will be hard pressed to find a possitive article. And when did being an organic gardener become a bad thing? All life is connected, read your bible and your savior can tell you that! Fear is all around you, I am not spreading fear I am here to open your eyes.
So here is my alternative to weed control, burn it, during the waning moon because water levels in plants are the lowest then, or get down and dirty and pull the weeds after it rains. It's alot of work, but isn't that why we garden, to fulfill our domestic city learned lives!

    Bookmark   April 11, 2005 at 9:47PM
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Rosa(4ish CO Rockie)

First of all religion, along with politics are not allowed here and those rules come from the site-not us.

Second, biased articles abound both pro and con. All I said was that the information you provided about the chemical running into the neighbors yard and/or causing ground water contamination is not correct. That is not bias-that is based on the chemical composition of the product. That it poisons the ground we garden in is nothing but your subjective opinion.
We are *not* talking about Roundup ready crops and Denmark.

Orgainc gardening is not a bad thing-but I do agree that promoting your cause can't be done with fear and misinformation. Some of us are orgainic and some of us are not. You are not going to change the posters intent to use roundup as I will not attempt to get you to use it.

The poster did not ask for how to kill the weeds, just the proper spray temperature. Some of us have attemped to give that information.

The reason I asked you for alternatives is that this debate goes on in many forums and most times those posting have no idea how to even pull a weed not to mention be able to recognize one. They insist on alternative controls such as salt (that does indeed poision the soil) and vinegar that doesn't work on deep seated perennials.

    Bookmark   April 12, 2005 at 7:58AM
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As Rosa says, this controversy comes up all the time at Garden Web. In another forum I recently posted the following:

"Cheat grass" as it is commonly known around the intermountain west, is actually a combination of several closely related species of grass that are native to the steppes of Asia and were introduced here inadvertently. They have spread throughout the west, along the east of the Sierras from eastern Washington down into Arizona, I don't know how far east they have gone, but certainly to the Continental Divide. Many thousands of sq miles.

Cheat grass turns green in February, and has usually gone to seed by mid-May. It then dries out, and is extremely flammable. The seeds are annoying, they penetrate socks and stick there until one pulls them out one by one. They will get into dogs ears and cause infection. When dry, the grass is unpalatable to cattle, the seeds are so sharp they bother their tongues. When fresh, early in March, cattle do get some nutritional value from it. However it sucks the moisture from the ground, harming native grasses.

The big problem is fire, when lightening sets this stuff off it will burn for miles at a tremendous pace, and will ignite sage brush and pinion / juniper forest. That kills the sagebrush, pinion and juniper forest, leaving a desert populated by, you guessed it, cheat grass.

This past winter had more than average moisture, and there is cheat grass everywhere. I have it growing on top of my mulch, under my pine trees, all around my propane tank, etc etc. I just finished spraying 15 gallons of roundup trying to kill it before it gets too big and goes to seed. This is on 3 acres.

Russian Olive and Tamarisk are two invasive weeds that, between them, will choke out just about everything along the river banks and bottoms out here. It is an impenetrable mess, and many of the native birds are in serious decline as most of their natural food base in the riparian areas has been wiped out by these two trees. One way to control them is with roundup.

I don't use roundup in my vegetable garden. I have serious reservations on GM roundup ready plants, and I have concerns with Monsanto buying up seed companies. But I do think it is a useful tool in the control of invasive weeds that are destroying much of the ecology of the west. Like any medicine, it does have side effects, both to the ecology as well, potentially, human health. But one has to make a trade off, I suppose.

    Bookmark   April 12, 2005 at 9:19AM
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Re: "So here is my alternative to weed control, burn it, during the waning moon because water levels in plants are the lowest"

It's illegal to burn in most cities - besides the smoke pollutes the air and drifts into your neighbor's air space.

    Bookmark   April 12, 2005 at 10:02AM
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hey carob,
I am sorry that so many people trashed your post.

I don't feel that I need to defend myself anymore. I obviously feel that I posted nothing that isn't accurate, we all have different views. So if you don't agree with me ignore me but dont be so rude to me because I believe that poisoning our environment is a bad thing.
I hope all of your gardening ventures are as pleasant as mine.

    Bookmark   April 12, 2005 at 2:16PM
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Rosa(4ish CO Rockie)

David, Well said and i agree with all, especially with the last paragraph. I also do not use Roudup in the veggie bed or GM crops. I am a seed saver so the idea of chemical companies or any other venture buying seed houses in attempts to control food sources/patent rights/variety/availability etc.. is reprehensible to me.

Sunshine, yes agree to disagree-I can live with that too.

carob-have you started spraying yet?

    Bookmark   April 13, 2005 at 7:45AM
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lilyroseviolet(Maine 4and 5)

While visiting California and Arizona, this winter, I noticed that news stations were actaully filming and talking about the unsurmountable amounts of roundup being sold at local garden supply stores (as the over rain fall season has woken up dormant seeds and it looks like super weeds everywhere)!
As I remember, there was only concern by those I had spoke with and from the media was that there may be forest fires from the many weeds that will dry out and that controlling these larger than normal and more prolific weeds. So, pull the weeds, or use round up was the only message I heard, but the need to irradicate the weeds was to be a serious concern.

I never heard any reminder comments on the health issues or concerns from later effects of excessive use to mild and infrequent exposure. Roundup is toxic to human consumption, as it breaks down with water, it travels at a very slow rate and may take years to travel to its aquifer by ground water and soil penetrations. If repeated uses are applied the build up and break down process manifest into chemicals which are still of an equation which makes the soil less alive or any biomass of its environment.

Most poisons are just that poisons and if a poison is designed to kill the hardiest of plants on the planet (weeds) then I hope little children and animals are not in the drift or crawl on the residue.

Most plants dont die instantly, but through the leaves and stem the roundup is absorbed by spray (air traveling moleculars that land directly on each plant) The plant may take a few days to die. The sun exposure seems to increase the reaction rate of the plant.

Oh, remeber! dont spray while having your BBQ, pets playing near by or any people are out, especially those with asthma ( which is on the increase everyday). Wear a mask and protect any skin which may be exposed to overspray or drift.

Better yet, any suggestions for non-harmful methods in irradicating weeeds? Hand pull? Compost material?
Free fertilizer it you can compost the weeds? Just bvesure to keep as few poisons on the weeds to be used for compost.
I do understand that there is power in spraying one of those bottles. It feels powerful to kill weeds with a single swipe of spray. Kind of like Disney cartoons about DDT in the early years. lol

    Bookmark   April 14, 2005 at 3:24PM
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Michael_ut(z5 Ut)

I find it hard to believe that such a simple question can turn into this kind of platform for eco-friendly terrorists to attack those of us who choose to use chemicals to assist us in the removal of undesirable weeds in our own landscapes. You do not have the right to tell me, or anybody else that we are destroying the planet by using these chemicals just because you think that we are. You need to be educated about what you are telling people. Unfortunatly, somebody might believe you in your ignorance. Have fun with your gardening endeavors while you still have the right to do so.

    Bookmark   April 17, 2005 at 7:29PM
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Rosa(4ish CO Rockie)

Roundup is toxic to human consumption.

Actually, aspirin has a lower LD50 (more toxic) then Roundup.

    Bookmark   April 18, 2005 at 7:26AM
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Shhhhh! They'll take away my aspirin.

How many millions have died as a result of the DDT ban which now appears to be junk science? Most of those millions who die of malaria are children by the way.

    Bookmark   April 20, 2005 at 1:45PM
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"if a poison is designed to kill the hardiest of plants on the planet (weeds) then I hope little children and animals are not in the drift or crawl on the residue."

Roundup affects an amino acid pathway found only in plants. And while applicators should always be careful in their applications, once dried, dilute Roundup poses virtually no toxicological risk to children or animals that might encounter the incredibly small post spray residual. Roundup is hardly considered a heavy duty herbicide, there are scores of herbicides that are vastly more powerful and persistant, unlike Roundup which is inactivated once it hits typical garden soil and completely biodegrades over time.

The active ingredient in Roundup is rated as "slightly toxic" to "essentially non-toxic" to mammals. The added surfactant (detergent like wetting agent) is rated as having very low toxicity to mammals. And as long as it is not oversprayed or directly added to aquatic sites where the surfactant is toxic to fish, it poses very low health and environmental impacts. This is certainly NOT the case for many other kinds of pesticides. I am NOT cheerleading for pesticide use, and even with Roundup the need for use in the garden should be small to non-existent. But to throw Roundup into the "all pesticides will kill you and the environment" category ignores the true facts and does no on a service.

    Bookmark   April 21, 2005 at 11:27PM
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I have a couple of comments on this thread which has gone beyond the poster's original question.

First, I think comparing glyphosate to aspirin is misleading. Aspirin, taken in small amounts has been shown to be beneficial. The same can't be said about glyphosate. I've seen the same arguement where instead of aspirin, water is used as an example of a chemical that can kill of taken in large doses. Water is essential for life, glyphosate isn't. IOW, you shouldn't compare apples to oranges.

Many species of mosquitoes are resistant to DDT. The resistance developed very quickly rendering DDT ineffective. Many plants considered weeds by some, have become resistant to glyphosate.

I've read that the longevity of glyphosate and it's ability to move depends on the soil type and temperature. In some cases it was found to active for over two years.

Finally, sorry the link doesn't work, so I'm posting this in full to provide some of the latest research findings on the health effects of, in this case Roundup.

***** Press Release 07/03/05

Glyphosate Toxic & Roundup Worse

Dr. Mae-Wan Ho and Prof. Joe Cummins call for urgent regulatory review
of the most widely used herbicide in the light of new scientific evidence

New research findings are raising serious concerns over the safety of
the most commonly used herbicide, and should be sending shockwaves
through proponents of genetically modified (GM) crops made tolerant to
the herbicide, which now account for 75% of all GM crops in the world.

Worse yet, the most common formulation of the herbicide is even more
toxic than the herbicide by itself, and is made by the same biotech
giant that created the herbicide tolerant GM crops.

Broad-spectrum herbicide glyphosate (N-(phosphonomethyl)glycine),
commonly sold in the commercial formulation Roundup (Monsanto company,
St. Louis, Missouri USA) has been frequently used both on crops and
non-crops areas world wide since it was introduced in the 1970s. Roundup
is a combination of glyphosate with other chemicals including a
surfactant (detergent) polyoxyethyleneamine that enhance the spreading
of the spray droplets on the leaves of plants. The use of Roundup has
gone up especially in countries growing Roundup-tolerant GM crops
created by Monsanto.

Glyphosate kills plants by inhibiting the enzyme,
5-enolpyruvoyl-shikimate-3-phosphate synthetase (EPSPS), essential for
the formation of aromatic amino acids such as phenylalanine, tyrosine
and tryptophan; which leads onto vitamins and many secondary metabolites
such as folates, ubiquinones and naphthoquines. It is believed to be
rather specific in action and less toxic than other herbicides, because
the shikimate pathway is not present in mammals and humans. However,
glyphosate acts by preventing the binding of phosphoenol pyruvate to the
active site of the enzyme, and phosphoenol pyruvate is a core metabolite
present in all organisms; thus it has the potential to affect other
metabolic pathways. This is borne out by many reports of toxicities
associated with the herbicide reviewed in the Independent Science Panel
Report, The Case for a GM-free Sustainable World [1].

An epidemiological study in the Ontario farming populations showed that
glyphosate exposure nearly doubled the risk of late spontaneous
abortions [2], and Prof. Eric-Giles Seralini and his research team from
Caen University in France decided to find out more about the effects of
the herbicide on cells from the human placenta.

They have now shown that glyphosate is toxic to human placental cells,
killing a large proportion of them after 18 hr of exposure at
concentrations below that in agricultural use [3]. Moreover, Roundup is
always more toxic than its active ingredient, glyphosate; at least by
two-fold. The effect increased with time, and was obtained with
concentrations of Roundup 10 times lower than agricultural use.

The enzyme aromatase is responsible for making the female hormones
estrogens from androgens (the male hormones). Glyphosate interacts with
the active site of the enzyme but its effect on enzyme activity was
minimal unless Roundup was present.

Interestingly, Roundup increased enzyme activity after 1 h of
incubation, possibly because of its surfactant effect in making the
androgen substrate more available to the enzyme. But at 18h incubation,
Roundup invariably inhibited enzyme activity; the inhibition being
associated with a decrease in mRNA synthesis, suggesting that Roundup
decreased the rate of gene transcription. Seralini and colleagues
suggest that other ingredients in the Roundup formulation enhance the
availability or accumulation of glyphosate in cells.

There is, indeed, direct evidence that glyphosate inhibits RNA
transcription in animals at a concentration well below the level that is
recommended for commercial spray application Transcription was inhibited
and embryonic development delayed in sea urchins following exposure to
low levels of the herbicide and/or the surfactant polyoxyethyleneamine.
The pesticide should be considered a health concern by inhalation during
spraying [4].

New research shows that a brief exposure to commercial glyphosate caused
liver damage in rats, as indicated by the leakage of intracellular liver
enzymes. In this study, glyphosate and its surfactant in Roundup were
also found to act in synergy to increase damage to the liver [5].

Three recent case-control studies suggested an association between
glyphosate use and the risk of non-Hodgkin lymphoma [6-8]; while a
prospective cohort study in Iowa and North Carolina that includes more
than 54 315 private and commercial licensed pesticide applicators
suggested a link between glyphosate use and multiple myoeloma [9].
Myeloma has been associated with agents that cause either DNA damage or
immune suppression. These studies did not distinguish between Roundup
and glyphosate, and it would be important for that to be done.

There is now a wealth of evidence that glyphosate requires worldwide
health warnings and new regulatory review. Meanwhile, its use should be
reduced to a minimum as a matter of prudent precaution.

The Case for a GM-Free Sustainable World, Chapter 7, ISIS & TWN, London
& Penang, 2003.
Savitz DA, Arbuckle , Kaczor D, Curtis KM. Male pesticide exposure and
pregnancy outcome. Am J Epidemiol 2000, 146, 1025-36.
Richard S, Moslemi S, Sipahutar H, Benachour N and Seralini G-E.
Differential effects of glyphosate and Roundup on human placental cells
and aromatases
Marc J, Le Breton M, CormierP, Morales J, BelleR and Mulner-Lorillo O.
A glyphosate-based pesticide impinges on transcription. Toxicology and
Applied Pharmacology 2005, 203, 1-8.
Benedetti AL, de Lourdes Vituri C, Trentin AG, Dominguesc MAC and
Alvarez-Silva M. The effects of sub-chronic exposure of Wistar rats to
the herbicide Glyphosate-Biocarb. Toxicology Letters 2004, 153, 227­32.
De Roos AH, Zahm SH, Cantor KP, et al. Integrative assessment of
multiple pesticides as risk factors for non-Hodgkin¹s lymphoma among
men. Occup Environ Med 2003, 60, E11
Hardell L, Eriksson M, Nordstrom M. Exposure to pesticides as risk
factor for non-Hodgkin¹s lymphoma and hairy cell leukemia: pooled
analysis of two Swedish case-control studies. Leuk Lymphoma 2002,
McDuffie HH, Pahwa P, McLaughlin JR, Spinelli JJ, Fincham S, Dosman JA,
et al. 2001. Non-Hodgkin¹s lymphoma and specific pesticide exposures in
men: cross-Canada study of pesticides and health. 2001, Cancer Epidemiol
Biomarkers Prev 2001,10,1155­63.
De Roos AJ, Blair A, Rusiecki JA, Hoppin JA, Svec M, Dosemeci M, Sandler
DP and Alavanja MC. Cancer incidence among glyphosate-exposed pesticide
applicators in the agricultural health study. Environ Health Perspect
2005, 113, 49-54.

The Institute of Science in Society, PO Box 32097, London NW1 OXR
telephone: [44 20 8452 2729] [44 20 7272 5636]

General Enquiries - Website/Mailing List - ISIS Director

This GMO news service is underwritten by a generous grant from the Newman's
Own Foundation, edited by Thomas Wittman and is a production of the
Ecological Farming Association

    Bookmark   April 25, 2005 at 8:03AM
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Rosa(4ish CO Rockie)

Yes, it is a little unfair to compare Aspirin to Roundup, and I did it on purpose in response to this statement, " Roundup is toxic to human consumption,..."
Really??? No one I know drinks the stuff but the fact of the matter is that Aspirin does have a lower LD50, making it more toxic. LD50 is the standard measurement so that the apple and orange can be compared...

    Bookmark   April 25, 2005 at 9:22AM
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The salient point is, you should't compare a medicine which is known to be benenficial to an herbicide having no benefits to human health. These differences need to be taken into account when deciding whether or not to use a product.

LD50 is falling into to disfavor for a variety of reasons ...

    Bookmark   April 25, 2005 at 10:20AM
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There's a greater risk that your cell phone will kill you or your oven cleaner or peanuts than the residue from Roundup. Get a little perspective here. You can't live in a vacuum sealed world safe from all harm. I'll bet more people have died from weeding than spraying Roundup. Think of the risks.

A) You scratch your arm while pulling up nasty weed. Sepsis sets in and you die 2 days later.

B)You pull a muscle bending over a nasty patch of bindweed. Blood clot forms, breaks free and goes to brain. You're dead.

C) The rusty tool you're using knicks your arm. Tetanus kills you.

D)You get dirt on your hands which ends up in your mouth. E-coli bacteria from that steer manure infects you. Three days later you're dead.

E) Too much weeding on hot day causes sunstroke. You linger in coma for a month and die.

F) You accidentally pull your neighbor's prize plant. He shoots you.

Personally, I don't worry at all about spraying a few gallons of Roundup each year. Wear your seatbelt, don't smoke and lose some weight. Those 3 things will be ten million times more effective in saving your life than not using Roundup.

    Bookmark   April 25, 2005 at 10:51AM
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Rosa(4ish CO Rockie)

Herbicides have no benefit to human health? Your subjective opinion. Could be argued that there are non-native, invasive "weeds" that cause allergic reactions or death in humans that are better off eliminated with herbicides...

LD50 is falling into to disfavor for a variety of reasons ...

Can you post something for all of us to read? I'm curious to know the who and why of this in the scientic community. Is there any other standard to use at this point?

You forgot to mention anthrax which is also naturally present in soils ;-)

    Bookmark   April 25, 2005 at 11:39AM
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You guys are a hoot! Gosh I'm glad I ran a GardenWeb search for growing Indian Paint Brush this morning!

Rosa, for the sake of consistency, shouldn't you question Canyons use of subjective opinion instead of documented fact? Tossing in another red herring doesn't really aid in anyone's understanding of the problems with herbicides. Please post as much documented info as you can find regarding the health benfits of injesting, breathing or absorbing herbicide through skin contact.

On LD50, for one, LD50 doesn't measure long-term, possibly lethal effects of a dose lower than that required to immediately kill 50% of the participants in the study. There's lots of stuff on the web about this and other problems concerning the accuracy of extracting data gathered on one species and applying it to another. Try a google search if you want to find out more.

Canyon, I don't have a cell phone, nor do I use commercial oven cleaner because vinegar works just fine.

    Bookmark   April 25, 2005 at 12:35PM
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Rosa(4ish CO Rockie)

I don't find anything subjective about what Canyon_Home posted-Believe all mentioned are documented killers.
But the question is again, what is the chance of those things occurring? Small. When *used as directed* aspirin is not going to kill you neither is Roundup.

You are missing the point...the statement that Roundup is toxic to human consumption begs to be answered with, compared to what, exactly? Aspirin, water, bleach, vinegar, DDT, 2,4-D, tetnus, anthrax, OTC drugs made into illicit ones?

But yes I do think there is a place for herbicides when used sparingly and as directed. If you don't think I know the problems with herbicides or have a cavalier attitude please think again...I have a valid pesticide applicators lisence and I don't make money from any chemical company by using their products. I make my living by using your tax dollars to kill state and federally listed noxious weeds on public trust lands.

Some of the things I've read on this and other forums are just plain outrageous with respect to people not even considering reading a label or asking questions before they poison their veggie crops or end up with unnesessary chemical exposure issues, all from blatent misuse. Just like the misuse of "all natural" herbal remedys, OTC drugs, cars, alcohol, etc...Doesn't mean that no one should be able to use those products, does it?

    Bookmark   April 25, 2005 at 4:19PM
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Rosa, I think I understand the problem. You said sunshinelovegirl's report that Round-up can move into the groundwater was only her subjective opinion, when in reality this is a fact that can easily be documented. You said my statement that herbicides have no beneficial health effects was a subjective opinion, yet offer no data to refute this. When Canyon says cell phones and oven cleaners are more dangerous than Round-up, you accept his/her subjective opinion unquestioningly. The pattern as I see it is, anyone who doesn't embrace Round-up and its claims of safety you dismiss as non-objective or by a red herring.

Round-up is toxic when consumed. I can't think of any reason that the fact can't be accepted as is without looking for comparisons to anything else. If you must, compare it to other herbicides which you will be using in a similar manner for a similar purpose.

It seems to me that you more than anyone Rosa because of your profession, would carry a greater responsibility for understanding the latest research concerning problems with herbicides (Round-up). This thread was never about anything but Round-up.

    Bookmark   April 25, 2005 at 9:24PM
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doccod(Z5-6 NM)

Well Rosa, It just goes to show, a little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

Just to add something constructive to the post, I sprayed roundup at the recommended application rates to some weeds in our front yard about 2 weeeks ago.

It rained about 8 hours later, and the temps have been 50-60/35-40 since then. The weeds just started to turn yellow a couple a days ago, but I can tell it's gonna get em.

Oh, and my wife let the Horses into the yard to help a little, about a week ago. They are still breathing just fine!

    Bookmark   April 25, 2005 at 9:33PM
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I have always thought that those who condem certain practices/products should "walk a mile in their shoes". This goes for those who have never seen the sort of weed problems that exist on the thousands of square miles in the west, and the consequences of doing anything. It is an ecological disaster that has to be seen to be fully appreciated. It goes for those who have never seen mercury poisoning in a child and see no reason to regulate coal burning plants. And those who refute Family Planning and have never been to an over-populated 3rd world country where tens of millions live in conditions we wouldn't keep a pet.

Often we have to make decisions on what is the best, as there is no perfect.

    Bookmark   April 25, 2005 at 9:56PM
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lilyroseviolet(Maine 4and 5)

Roundup has been controversal since it was first introduced on the market. There are several different types of roundup sold as well...some are much more potent and harsher than others, the average homeowner has a choice of strength to choose from.

Having a pesticide application license is not really very difficult to do, however you must go to classes and siminars each year to keep your points and standing.

    Bookmark   April 25, 2005 at 11:49PM
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delray(z5 UT)

I know we are beating a dead horse. People will believe what they want, but I would look cautiously at articles written by eco-activists like Joseph Mendelson (his article sited above).

See his connections for yourself. This guy is at the forefront of those accusing big companies and the FDA of bio-terrorism and conspiracy to ruin the environment and poison the food supply. He is very deceptive siting the effects of roundup if you were to drink it or pour it all over animals right out of the bottle as though those were its lingering effects. He is also a lawyer/activist who's organization wants to bring us back to the stone ages and deny the kind of progress and genetic research that has brought you so many of the plants you enjoy (including the crops that have become more and more productive over the years).

    Bookmark   April 26, 2005 at 2:25AM
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Rosa, just out of curiosity, how many sections do you deal with, and what weeds are your biggest problems?

    Bookmark   April 26, 2005 at 8:59AM
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Rosa(4ish CO Rockie)

Don't know how many sections but combined the properties are over 350,000 acres.

Russian knapweed , Tamarisk and African Rue are the biggest of my problems in SE Colorado. Old sheep farm and cattle ranch so the knapweed has been established, oh, probably since the 1930's. The tamarisk is in drainages feeding into the Pergatoire River. The African Rue is a brand new invader.

In the Colorado Springs area, it's Canada thistle, Tamarisk, Whitetop, jointed goatgrass, Spotted & diffuse knapweed, yellow toadflax, russian olive. There are others (houndstounge, St johns wort) but in such small quantities that hand pulling is the norm. And others I just don't have the money to deal with right now like most of the tamarisk.

We have an established Biological control programs with insects on Canada & Musk thistles, Spotted and Diffuse knapweed, and bindweed. Will be releasing insects on Russian thistle and yellow toadflax this year, and still waiting (along with everyone else) on insects for Tamarisk.

    Bookmark   April 27, 2005 at 7:08AM
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Wow, I didn't know tamarisk was on the eastern slope, shows I need to travel some more. I'll look up African Rue, something I havn't heard of. Most of the rest are around here too.

    Bookmark   April 27, 2005 at 9:05AM
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Rosa(4ish CO Rockie)

Actaully, there are a couple of recorded tamarisk patches (single trees) at elevations around 9000' on the east slope. Suprised the heck outta me. The Arkanas River drainage is pretty infested with Tamarisk and have the only two experimental biological control sites in the state at this point.
African Rue aka Syrian Rue (Peganum harmala) is a newcomer and unfortunately we have the *only* existing population in the state. Beautiful plant-you would really want this in your yard!! As far as we can figure it came up from NM on vehicles servicing a gas pipline.

    Bookmark   April 27, 2005 at 8:56PM
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The following thread contains abstracts of published reviewed scientific papers concerning some of the glyphosate/RoundUp points raised in this thread:

    Bookmark   May 12, 2005 at 3:26AM
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hello fellow gardeners. I have really had alot of fun, and learned a bunch, reading the many different questions and follow-ups on a wide variety of subjects since getting a membership to "Garden Web" for a Christmas present. Sooo, here is my two-cents worth to the Round-up question.
We have been working for the last three years landscaping over 4 acres which was horse/cattle pasture for decades. Before that the land was used by native americans for hunting and fishing. The acreage is bordered on two sides by BLM land that is totally ignored by that department. Cheatgrass has invaded many acres including ours. We have also "distrubed" the virgin soil which has brought to the surface a whole host of weed seeds. OK now I am ducking and heading for cover because I am going to confess we have used many gallons of Round-Up trying to get the weeds and cheatgrass under control. We tried to mow the weeds but ran into to many hidden rocks; we hired local teenage workers to pull weeds but after we passed the $1000 wage mark (just this year) we had to reconsider; we tried solar kill (laying plastic and let the heat kill weeds) which worked that year but they came back as soon as we tilled again the next year. Now that we have pulled as many weeds as possible this year maintenance will be with Round-Up. Local folks in the know tell us to hang in there as the weed problem will deminish greatly each year and our use of roundup. We are, a section at a time, getting ground cover in place which is stopping the re-grow. Yes, we did decide to use landscaping cloth under bark and stone ground cover. Guess time will only tell if it was a smart move or not. Now, if your not asleep with this long disertation, our final comment which goes back to the original question. Two hours of hot direct sun jump starts the demiss of the pesky weeds. Usually see curling or yellowing the following day. Rain within the same day hasn't seemed to stop the process. The warmer it is the faster it works. Next spring we are starting our spraying as soon as temps hit 50 degrees and we see greening of the weeds. We will continue to spray into the ajoining BLM land then burn the dead and dried plants re-seeding with native grasses to help curb the take-over. All possible precautions are taken when doing this-calm day, hoses/water at hand, grass seed from local ag group. So final answer: follow all directions when using any product, use protective gear, pull as many weeds as possible by hand before they go to seed for a natural approach, burn with caution, and read and education yourself while staying open minded to both sides of the forum.

    Bookmark   June 5, 2005 at 5:18PM
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SheilaGail_NV(8 NV)

I hope all the knowledgeable people here can help me with our Tamarisk invasion on my property in Las Vegas NV. We cut them to the stumps and have been advised to use Roundup Brush. I cannot find this here in NV and on the net I see Roundup Pro, and a lot of conflict. We must get these out of here as we are on well water with a limited ground source. Besides, they're killing our lawn. Also, we have animals in these areas and I am concerned about weeks of treatment and toxicity. And I hear they are so hard to kill it will be an ongoing project for years. Any advice? And we thought they were so pretty. Instant landscaping. Such beautiful flowers. Sigh. Thanks for any help.

    Bookmark   June 19, 2005 at 3:48PM
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SheilaGail_NV, I live in NLV & use the evil round up pro (just bought the 6.8 lb jug / 72gallons :O ). One problem is it is so hot right now weeds can start to die too quickly & the ru is not being absorbed by the roots & they come back (at least my horse thistle does).Here's a link to the Nevada Dept. of Agriculture

See the Nevada Noxious Weed Field Guide for a wealth of info on identifying & treating our weeds.

OP my experiece is ru doesn't work too well at lower temps but the pro has EXTRA evil chemicals that kill the foliage quicker.

    Bookmark   August 31, 2010 at 3:41PM
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5 years later and Sheila got her advice...


    Bookmark   August 31, 2010 at 4:40PM
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I drove down McElmo canyon this past weekend where they have a whole lotta tamarisk and have introduced the bug that munches it. It does seem to be effective, because there was defoliated tamarisk everywhere.

    Bookmark   September 1, 2010 at 8:47AM
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