Need help with ID of OGR

daisiesdreamJanuary 25, 2005

Hi,

I would love to know the name of this rose and am hoping one of you can help me. I found it at a home my Mother was living. The previous owner had kept it mowed to the ground. We let if grow back and it appeared to be a shrub rose, growing about 4' high and wide. It was in mostly shade but was covered in these pink blooms. I dug up a start and planted it in my garden, full sun and discovered it was a climber,12' or so. It's a once bloomer, mid to late spring. It has a very strong and sweet rose fragrance. Any help you can give me would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

Lynn

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cecilia_md7a(7a/Baltimore,MD)

Lynn, what a lucky find - it's a beautiful rose.

Let's try to narrow this down a little:

Your member page notes that you garden in central Indiana. That's probably USDA Zone 5. Whatever this rose is, it needs to survive fairly cold winters, so we know it's not a China, Tea, or Noisette.

The leaves appear to be matte rather than shiny. Does anyone remember which classes are more likely to have matte foliage?

You mention that you dug up a start of the original rose. Does this mean that the original plant sent out a lot of suckers, forming a wide thicket? Certain types of OGRs are more likely to do this than others.

Finally, how large are the flowers? It's hard to tell from the photos. And do you have any photos that show the buds, hips, or prickles (thorns)?

    Bookmark   January 25, 2005 at 12:05PM
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petaloid(SoCal 10a/24)

If you could answer Cecilia's questions it would be very helpful in narrowing down the possibilities.

At first glance it reminds me of a damask perpetual/Portland rose named "Comte de Chambord," so I'm putting a link to that one below. Click on the photos tab to see many pictures of that variety:

Here is a link that might be useful: Comte de Chambord

    Bookmark   January 26, 2005 at 8:14PM
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alicia7b(z7b/8aNC)

Constance Spry? Not an old garden rose but was introduced many years ago, in 1960.

    Bookmark   January 27, 2005 at 8:49PM
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cecilia_md7a(7a/Baltimore,MD)

It does look a lot like Constance Spry. Here are some photos for comparison.

Constance is known for her distinctive myrrh fragrance. Lynn describes her rose's fragrance as strong and sweet. I know that fragrance is subjective, but if we could just get Lynn to recognize the myrrh fragrance, we might be able to confirm whether or not this is Constance.

Here is a link that might be useful: Constance Spry on Helpmefind.com

    Bookmark   January 28, 2005 at 9:09AM
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Patricia43(z8 AL)

It does not look like my Constance Spry. I think this is an old rose, perhaps a gallica or damask, etc., that I do not grow. I am impressed by the button eye.

    Bookmark   January 29, 2005 at 1:48AM
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alicia7b(z7b/8aNC)

If you are ever interested in trading cuttings, I'm in. Whatever the rose is, it's beautiful. An unusual form and color of flower in a climber.

    Bookmark   January 29, 2005 at 1:51PM
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daisiesdream

Hi,

Sorry I haven't been able to get back with the question's you've all asked about my OGR. I lost my Grandmother last week and have been away dealing with everything that comes from such a loss. I really appreciate all of you trying to help me figure out this rose I have found. I'll try to answer as many Q's as I can! Please bear with me, I mostly only grow OGR's roses and don't know a lot about them! Most were given to me and I've no clue what the name is for any of them! So I may be here begging for help with the others as well! :)

"Does this mean that the original plant sent out a lot of suckers, forming a wide thicket?"

Yes, the canes come up from the ground like suckers. Each year I get 3 to 4 new canes. The original Rose I took my start from was at least 4 ft wide.

"Finally, how large are the flowers?"
I'm going by memory because I never thought to measure but I would say the first photo above they are about 3" across and about 4" once fully open as in the 2nd photo. I found a few more photo's. I'll include a link at the bottom of my post. They are not the best quality and the color is not true on most of them but maybe you can get a better idea on what this rose is. The photo's above are almost exact to the actual color.

"At first glance it reminds me of a damask perpetual/Portland rose named "Comte de Chambord,"

I checked the link that you provided and it does look very much like a few of the photo's of this rose. It says it blooms a second time in the fall, however mine has never done that. I've only had it bloom in the spring, May/June. I've pruned it back to the first set of five leaves and have never had it set on new buds. Could I be doing something wrong to keep it from blooming a second flush later in the season? This will be my 4th year with this Rose in my garden.

"Constance is known for her distinctive myrrh fragrance. Lynn describes her rose's fragrance as strong and sweet."

The best I can describe the scent is it has what most amatures like myself would call a rose scent? Almost like the bottles of toilet water I use to sniff at the dime stores when I was a child. Does that make sense?....LOL It is very sweet. You can smell the scent the minute you step into my back yard. My neighbor directly behind me says she can smell it when she step out her back door, which is maybe 50 ft from where the rose is growing on my fence. I don't recall it having a spicy scent at all,but again, I'm new to all this rose stuff!

"If you are ever interested in trading cuttings, I'm in."

I would be more than happy to trade cuttings in the spring with anyone who is interested. Just ask!

Thanks again to all of you who are so kind in helping me figure out what this rose is! I absolutely love it and hope I have given you a litte more to go on!

Lynn

Here is a link that might be useful: More OGR Pictures

    Bookmark   January 30, 2005 at 2:05AM
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patriciae_gw(07)

I dont often have time to visit the ID forum-maybe I will try to make time when I see what I am missing-what a lovely find! I dont think it can be Comte de Chambord since it is a climber-that rose generally tops out at 4 feet or so and the stem of the rose looks long and stout. I can only guess which direction to try-Hybrid Bourbons can have that look but are they hardy where you are? It has a Hybrid Perpetual look to me but they should have some rebloom. Hope someone who knows more than I do can ID it...patricia

    Bookmark   January 31, 2005 at 11:51AM
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cecilia_md7a(7a/Baltimore,MD)

Are there still any hips on the rose? You might try splitting the hip in half, as Mrs. Keays article suggests. I did this with a hip of one of my foundlings (since ID'd as Shailer's Provence) and was able to determine that it belonged to the hybrid china class. Keays also notes some other ways to narrow down your identification.

Here is a link that might be useful: What Old Rose is This?

    Bookmark   February 1, 2005 at 10:07AM
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berndoodle

We know some things about this rose. It is very hardy if it lives in Indiana. It is once blooming in the spring. It has old rose fragrance. And it grows big.

Take a look at the Centifolias on HelpMefind. Fantin Latour.

It's absolutely beautiful.

    Bookmark   February 1, 2005 at 9:53PM
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trospero(8)

Cass, That was going to be my guess as well. It definitely has either Gallica or Centifolia foliage.

Paul

    Bookmark   February 4, 2005 at 9:25PM
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alicia7b(z7b/8aNC)

Is there a climbing sport of Fatin Latour, then?

    Bookmark   February 5, 2005 at 8:21AM
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petaloid(SoCal 10a/24)

Below is a link to the HelpMeFind list of roses by class. You can check out the Centifolias, Damasks, etc.:

Here is a link that might be useful: Roses listed by class

    Bookmark   February 5, 2005 at 5:30PM
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daisiesdream

Thanks for the help in trying to identify my rose. I'll follow all the links and suggestions you've all given me and see what I can come up with! I'll let you know if I figure this out! :)

Thanks again!

Lynn

    Bookmark   February 7, 2005 at 12:37AM
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albinnibla(z7a OKC)

I'll throw in my guess that it may be Queen of Danemark.
She is an alba. is one of the pinkest of these, smells sweet, is a once bloomer, and survives z5.
albin

    Bookmark   February 7, 2005 at 8:38PM
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alicia7b(z7b/8aNC)

What about Jean Lafitte? Or May Queen? (although that's supposed to have a strong fruity, rather than rose fragrance)

    Bookmark   February 23, 2005 at 8:22AM
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alicia7b(z7b/8aNC)

Sorry, couldn't be Jean Lafitte (it's supposed to repeat), or May Queen (doesn't have the right scent). You'd think a rose like this would be easy to identify! :)

    Bookmark   February 23, 2005 at 7:03PM
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alicia7b(z7b/8aNC)

I was wondering if perhaps your rose is De la Grifferaie. It's a multiflora X unknown gallica or damask cross from 1845 that is cold-hardy, grows big (I found a picture of it on the web where it was trained as a climber), is once-blooming, and tends to sucker vigorously from the roots. The flowers are pink, very fragrant, and very double with a button eye. The plant has been used as understock, and may have been what the original rose was grafted onto before the previous homeowner mowed it down. The pictures I've seen describe the flowers as dark pink in the shade, but tend to be medium pink in the sun. De la Grifferaie isn't supposed to have many prickles, however; are the newer canes as thorny as the one in the picture that is posted?

    Bookmark   February 25, 2005 at 10:52PM
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petaloid(SoCal 10a/24)

Below is a link to HelpMeFind photos of De la Grifferaie. Click on photos for enlargement. Click on "Main" tab for description:

Here is a link that might be useful: De la Grifferaie

    Bookmark   February 27, 2005 at 1:36PM
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rockyflorida(8)

I thought it looked like Fantin Latour also but the flower form just doesn't look quite the same to me. FL to me appears more rosette-like and has more petals. Those big red thorns are not typical of FL either. I have a little FL and it has small prickles. I can't think what grows to 12 feet in the north either that looks like this. I agree the bloom looks a lot like Comte de C.

    Bookmark   March 12, 2005 at 8:32AM
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alicia7b(z7b/8aNC)

Actually De La Grifferaie can be quite prickly. I came across it when I was looking for understock roses to grow, as they are hard to kill. Some of these roses, although they are propogated vegetatively, can sport some as they go along, so they can be quite variable. Manetti is a good example of this; its prickles can range from absent to large. This sporting can result in some difference in flower color, etc, too.

    Bookmark   March 14, 2005 at 9:16AM
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andrearose(10 SoCal)

How about Belle Isis?

A

    Bookmark   March 15, 2005 at 1:34AM
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alicia7b(z7b/8aNC)

Belle Isis isn't a climber, and has a strong myrrh fragrance, rather than old rose. Trospero said that it had either centifolia or gallica foliage, but it must be a hybrid since those are not climbers, and this rose is clearly a climber. A very lovely rose.

    Bookmark   March 15, 2005 at 7:38AM
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andrearose(10 SoCal)

I just tried selecting 'button eye' and 'climber' in HelpMeFind and got nothing! (I do realize that HMF is not 100% comprehensive). This is going to be interesting.
When it blooms again, can you get a petal count?

A

    Bookmark   March 16, 2005 at 4:27AM
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trospero(8)

Some of the Gallica-China crosses are indeed climbers. This is not 'Compte de Chambord', nor is it 'Belle Isis' or 'Constance Spry'. It might be 'Fantin Latour' though. It might be 'De la Grifferaie'but you would know more certainly if it had the fringed stipules. So, what is it? Darn purty, thats what. :-)

Paul

    Bookmark   April 2, 2005 at 9:40PM
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alicia7b(z7b/8aNC)

You're right, Paul! :)

    Bookmark   April 2, 2005 at 10:00PM
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daisiesdream

AndreaRose: I'll get a petal count and do a more accurate measuring on the canelength and size of blooms. It should be in bloom by the end of May.

trospero: Many of the suggestions look so close but out of all of them so far 'Fantin Latour' looks and sounds the most like my Rose. But what do I know!? Not much that's for sure!...lol I agree she sure is darn purty! Maybe after I get more info we can figure this beauty out!?

Thanks to all of you for helping me try to name her. I really do appreciate it!

Lynn

    Bookmark   April 10, 2005 at 2:48AM
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tapatio(z8/N.C.)

Could it be La Ville de Bruxelles?

    Bookmark   April 12, 2005 at 11:00PM
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jmatthew(z4 VT)

I have an OGR, found in the rock wall when I moved in her 30 years ago, which is just as you describe--it is also a very poor cut flower, falling apart quickly but smelling wonderfully until then.

An old (in years) friend said it was Dorothy Perkins, but I wonder. It looks like some of the DP photos.
I'll take some photos when it blooms.

Jean

    Bookmark   May 20, 2005 at 12:52PM
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alicia7b(z7b/8aNC)

It can't be Dorothy Perkins. That has small flowers. It grows all along the roadsides here.

    Bookmark   May 20, 2005 at 1:18PM
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rosyjennifer(z 6/7 MD)

My first guess is Konigin von Danemark and my second guess would be Fantin-Latour which others have guessed also.

    Bookmark   May 26, 2005 at 11:41PM
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andrearose(10 SoCal)

Isn't the foliage too green to be an alba? My Fantin Latour has almost smooth canes. I would like to know more about the canes, and I'd love to see a bud shot.
*drools*

A

    Bookmark   May 31, 2005 at 1:14AM
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Aster_Qc_zone4b(4)

The bloom form is different from my Fantin-Latour, mine also seem to have less petals and is a bit paler than on your pictures, more blush than pink. Andrea is also right about the canes of Fantin which are very flexible.

Your rose is very beautiful. It reminds me a bit of Ispahan, a damask which can grow very big under certain condition (full sun and support), but it probably isn't quite it also.
Gros choux de Hollande is also sometimes classed with Centifolias, it is a bourbon hybrid (or do we say hybrid bourbon?) that doesn't repeat. There is some ressemblance, perhaps a close relative?

Véronique

    Bookmark   May 31, 2005 at 12:02PM
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jonsinger

Hi.

Are you still trying to identify this one? If so, I have some questions and maybe a suggestion or two.

Can you get photos of buds that are about to open, flower stems, foliage, foliage details like the edges of the leaves, and a good look at the general habit of the plant?

With regard to suggestions that other people have made, I like the 1938 article by Mrs. Keays, though some of the names are now out of date. She has a lot to say about key characteristics.

As to the roses that people have suggested, I'm afraid they mostly don't seem right to me. For example, most of the photos of 'Fantin Latour' and 'Comte de Chambord' show blossoms that are significantly darker in the middle and paler at the edge, but I don't see that in any of your photos of your rose.

Photos of 'de la Grifferaie' seem to show a more ragged blossom with fewer petals, and much more color-change as the flowers age out.

'Konigin von Danemark' has dark-green wrinkly foliage, and the flowers tend to be pale at the edge. If I'm seeing your photos right, your plant has dusty mid-green foliage with a wavy (but not really wrinkly) surface, and it has relatively long flower-stems.

Several of the suggested possibilities (for example, 'La Ville de Bruxelles') have flowers that are mostly cupped, with a fairly flat front. Your photos don't look like that at all -- the flowers appear to open quite convex. (Are the petals any paler on the reverse than the front? That, too can be a key item...)

'Williamsburg' (http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/pl.php?n=28904) is superficially similar, but I'm not sure it has as many petals, and the date of introduction is a bit recent (1965). 'Hetty's Mystery', found in California (http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/pl.php?n=48548), is also superficially similar, but the leaves appear too flat and not dusty enough.

I just wish I could be more helpful.

It would be great, btw, if you'd be willing to post this rose to Fara Shimbo's new found roses Website. I'll give the URL below.

Here is a link that might be useful: Found Roses (a new site)

    Bookmark   May 14, 2006 at 2:26AM
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alicia7b(z7b/8aNC)

There is a picture of the Queen of Denmark on the Antique Roses forum that looks just like this rose. The thread is celestialrose's on pink roses.

    Bookmark   August 31, 2006 at 8:36AM
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heikerose

Hello,

what's about Rosa x centifolia major (Painter's Rose) ? It has this particular scent, does flower only once and has more loose petals than the cabbage rose (and it's bigger than R x centifolia syn. 'Cabbage Rose')

    Bookmark   December 27, 2006 at 9:16AM
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