'Vienna Cemetery Purple'

rosyone(z8 north Louisiana)May 31, 2005

Please, can someone tell me what this beauty is, or at least the class to which it most likely belongs? Click a thumbnail to view a larger image in a new window or tab. A newly opened bloom, about 2.5" wide, on a cutting I rooted last summer. Sorry, I forgot to count the petals and it's too late to do so now, but as you can see it's well packed. The cuttings parent is in a country cemetery in north Louisiana. The same bloom, a couple of days later. The touch of white at the base of the petals remains completely hidden until the bloom is well past its prime. None of the blooms I've seen have been quartered, nor is there a prominent eye. More blooms. This baby was generous with its blooms, given its size and age, and every bloom was perfect. The lighter reverse is less noticeable as the bloom ages. The leaves are on the small side and smooth, with a matte finish. The backs of the leaf ribs are exceptionally prickly. Disease resistance is excellent. Thorns near the bottom of the plant. The upper halves of the canes are much less thorny. The cuttings parent, as pruned with a lawn mower. Scads of suckers were trying to reassert themselves as much as a yard away. There are large trees to the east and to the west, so the plant isn't getting anything close to a full day of sun. It's a once bloomer, so far as I can tell, and this photo was taken early in its bloom cycle. There numerous immature buds at the ends of the canes that don't show up very well. (The pink tongued black blob between the car door and tree is my supervisor, Bobby Chuck.)

Thanks for looking. - Laura

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trospero(8)

Laura,

It is almost certainly a China-Gallica Hybrid, but it is not 'Cardinal de Richelieu'. the good Cardinal has petals that do not reflex at all, but retain their distinct heart shape to each petal. The color of your rose is too reddish-purple to be the Cardinal either and the canes are far too prickly. No, I can't tell you what it might be; I don't recognize it. There are so many purplish Hybrid Chinas floating around without names (I have several collected ones myself) that it is hard to distinguish one from another. You did an excellent job of documenting all the plant parts though, which is precisely what one needs to do for an identification.

Perhaps someone else will recognize your rose, but if you don't ever find a name for it, don't let that diminish your appreciation for its beauty.

Regards,
Paul

    Bookmark   May 31, 2005 at 10:29AM
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cecilia_md7a(7a/Baltimore,MD)

Laura, that is one beautiful rose. Is it fragrant at all?

The blooms reminds me of the foundling called "Edna's Rose" that PrairieWind posted photos of on this forum a few years ago. One of PW's "Ednas" is blooming in my yard right now, and the flowers are very similar - it's probably one of the scores of purplish Hybrid Chinas that Paul mentioned. "Edna" has a wonderful fragrance.

Do you have any idea what the growth habit of a mature "Vienna Cemetery" plant is like? Hard to tell from the photo of the mother plant, since it was mowed back.

    Bookmark   June 1, 2005 at 10:15AM
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oldroser(z5)

Looks like Little Red Runaround aka Old Red Runaround. A frequently found rose but so far nobody has come up with the original name as far as I know.

    Bookmark   June 1, 2005 at 11:53PM
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berndoodle

I thought Red Runaround had little blooms.

    Bookmark   June 2, 2005 at 12:03AM
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rosyone(z8 north Louisiana)

Paul; Thanks. I'd realized that the color and abundance of thorns argued against an identification as Cardinal de Richelieu, but hadn't picked up on the difference in petal shape. Is the light reverse something that's commonly seen with these roses?

Cecilia; It has a moderately strong fragrance - spicy, not sweet.

I found several photos of Edna's Rose in a Webshots gallery (linked below), and if it isn't the same rose, it's certainly similar. What is its growth habit?

I know better than to draw too many conclusions from the appearance of a cemetery rose of unknown age and questionable care, but that said, the growth habit of my find seems to most resemble the first one described for gallicas on the Vintage Gardens web site. There is evidence of suckering over a wide area, most of which has been mowed. The un-mowed canes don't appear to have been pruned or to have suffered any winter die-back and are slender, lightly branched, dense, and maybe 4' tall or a little less. They arch somewhat under the weight of the blooms, then pop up fairly straight once relieved of their burden.

Oldroser, Berndoodle; Red Runaround... I've never heard of that one. How large are the blooms, and how red is it? My rose isn't grape purple but I wouldn't call it red either. More of a violet-magenta, with a slate blue cast to the outer petals.

Here is a link that might be useful: Edna's Rose

    Bookmark   June 2, 2005 at 11:11PM
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cecilia_md7a(7a/Baltimore,MD)

Laura, the Edna's Rose in the link is the one that PrarieWind found - maybe tha's her photo gallery? Anyway, my Edna is still small, but it looks like it wants to be a climber or at least a rose with long, arching canes. The canes are rather flexible - maybe because it's a young plant? My plant has already suckered a little - I sent Jeanne in OH a rooted sucker of it for evaluation this spring.

    Bookmark   June 3, 2005 at 10:27AM
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rosyone(z8 north Louisiana)

Cecilia, The longest VCP canes I've seen have been barely long enough to make a self respecting arching rose. I'd be surprised if it ever develops into a climber.

I notice that there are full sun and partial shade shots of Edna's Rose in the Webshots gallery. Has there been discussion of the shade tolerance of that rose? The VCP parent plant is growing in a spot that I would consider too shady for most roses, and yet blooms well and appears to be in remarkably good health for a cemetery rose.

    Bookmark   June 4, 2005 at 12:40AM
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berndoodle

Here's a link to "Little Red Runaround," which may or may not be the same as "Old Red Runaround."

I wish it were a better picture, but the foliage is pretty much in focus. The blooms dry out to a wine color in serious heat. As I recall the blooms are only about 2 inches across, and the plants I saw weren't terribly tall - - say 3 to 4 feet. It suckers and forms a colony.

Your plant doesn't have that suckering look, and the blooms look pretty big.

Here is a link that might be useful: Little Red Runaround at Helpmefind

    Bookmark   June 4, 2005 at 10:52PM
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rosyone(z8 north Louisiana)

Thanks Cass. The height of LRR is about right for my found rose and mine does sucker. It had been recently and ruthlessly whacked and mowed at the time the full shrub photo above was taken. The blooms are larger but not that much - 2.5" to maybe 3" across. It's hard to tell from the HMF photo, but the petals of that bloom don't seem to reflex nearly as much and it appears to have a button eye. And the buds don't look right. I think it's probably a different rose.

Cecilia, do the petals of Edna's Rose have a light reverse?

    Bookmark   June 5, 2005 at 4:47PM
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cecilia_md7a(7a/Baltimore,MD)

Laura, I'll have to check if the petals are lighter on the reverse - I can't remember. The photos in the link you posted don't appear to be.

    Bookmark   June 6, 2005 at 9:30AM
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autumnshowers(z7 TX)

I would be interested in growing this rose to compare it with several of my old European "purple" roses mentioned in this thread.

    Bookmark   June 8, 2005 at 8:21PM
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