Please Id this old cottage rose- back again but with more pics

christinmk z5b eastern WAJune 27, 2008

Hi guys! I posted this question last year, but it was unable to be identified because I only had one pic. Well im back with more! Heres my info on it.

This rose was given to my mother by her mother more than twenty-five years ago. Im not sure if thats when she bought it, or if she had had it in her garden for an even longer time. Im not sure if this is some sort of species rose or a cultivar.

This rose is VERY large. It has no trouble shooting up eight or more foot canes. The canes themselves are very erect. The canes that are the oldest get crackled and rather resemble tree bark. They are also a deep mahogany color. The youngest new stems are a light green.

There are many buds per stem. The roses themselves are a medium dark pink. The anthers and filaments are a yellow-beige color. The rose has a wonderful spicy fragarance. I belive the shape is what you would call cupped. The berries (hips) of the rose are round and are a red-orange color in winter.

The foliage is a medium green color, and semi-glossy.

I cant let this rose get too big, as it is right against my front window. But I think It would make a HUGE rose if allowed to grow unpruned.

Its also worth mentioning that ive gotten several starts from this rose from suckers, which I think are from the main plant's roots.

Ive checked all sorts of sites and books to try and id it, but I havent been able to. Ill still love this rose even if I dont know its name though.

Thank you for any ideas you can give me. Let me know if I could give you any more info about it. And if you know of any other good sites or books to help id it would be much appreciated. Thank you!

Original Picuture I posted

Canes

Flowers

Upclose

Buds

CMK

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olga_6b

Gorgeous rose. I really don't know what it can be.
Does this rose repeat or blooms only in spring/early summer?
Leaves look modern to me.
Olga

    Bookmark   June 27, 2008 at 8:21PM
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christinmk z5b eastern WA

Oops, forgot to mention that very important detail! Yes, it does repeat. It first blooms in early June, then gets an equally large flush later in the summer. The only troubles ive ever had with it is a few boughts of black spots. It has trouble with tipping too. The flowers get really heavy and weigh the canes down a lot. I dont think this would be a problem if it was allowed to get to its full width/heigth though.
CMK

    Bookmark   June 27, 2008 at 10:02PM
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lionheart_gw

Wow! I don't know what it is but it sure is gorgeous. And in zone 5 too!

You need to be sharing this rose. If you ever have any more starts and want to trade for something else, just let me know. It's so difficult to get vigorous repeaters in zone 5.

    Bookmark   July 30, 2008 at 10:24PM
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christinmk z5b eastern WA

I didnt think id get any more replies!
lionheart I would share with you, but a funny thing happened with the suckers...
Well I trans planted two of them about two years ago around diffrent parts of my back yard. The first year they grew some, then a lot this spring. I thought they didnt look much like this rose in question, and I was right. It turned out that the suckers (or at least one of them)were one of those extremely common species roses that are single dark burgundy (which quickly get crispy brown) with yellow-stamens. Do you know which one im talking about? There must have been one planted next to the pink one at some point. I know that that burgundy species rose will often regrow even it its been moved (I think it must come back from leftover roots or something).
I was very dissapointed about those suckers. But I KNOW that the pink rose does have some offshoots sometimes. Theres one now that is about two feet away from the plant that did produce the flowers seen above. I tried to dig it out but it had NO ROOTS! It was just bending out and upwards. Maybe it was just and underground stem??? This leaves me even more confused than before...
Right now this rose is having a bit of a rough summer. It has some yellowing foliage and a couple of black spots. Im thinking of giving it a good whack this next spring and getting some of the oldest canes out. What do you guys think? I dont think it would hurt this monster any...
Ive looked at more sites cataloging roses (so far Ashdown has had the best selection of pics of old roses). Do you know of any other websites or organizations that may be able to help me id this beauty? Thank You!
CMK

    Bookmark   August 10, 2008 at 9:58PM
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Embothrium(USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA)

Foliage and flower buds look pretty modern.

    Bookmark   August 10, 2008 at 10:56PM
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christinmk z5b eastern WA

bboy, thanks! I didnt think it was a species, but wasnt sure. It's obviously a fairly old cultivar, at least twenty-five years old, maybe older...
What class do you think its in? My mom said that grandma sometimes called it a 'cabbage rose'. I looked that up and it could be a Centerfolia rose (I think I read somewhere that some Centerfolia's were called 'cabbage roses').
CMK

    Bookmark   August 11, 2008 at 12:33PM
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joan_m(6)

Your burgandy rose was probably Dr. Huey, a very common rootstock rose (not a species). I'd guess that perhaps the rose you are trying to ID is grafted.

    Bookmark   August 11, 2008 at 6:38PM
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christinmk z5b eastern WA

Joan, I looked up Dr. Huey and your right. That is the burgundy rose. I never thought of the rose being grafted, very smart. Do you guys know when roses first started becoming grafted on this Dr. Heuy? Maybe it would help me narrow down how old my pink rose is.
CMK

    Bookmark   August 11, 2008 at 9:59PM
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rosyjennifer(z 6/7 MD)

My first (wild) guess was Paul Neyron, but then I thought no, b/c generally old garden roses are grown own root from cuttings, and not grafted on Dr. Huey. And the few PN's I've seen were more puny than your rose.

Hmmmm... Those massive clusters of buds have me thinking... I'll report back.

Here is a link that might be useful: Paul Neyron

    Bookmark   August 11, 2008 at 10:20PM
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christinmk z5b eastern WA

Thank you SO much for a lead rosyjennifer!
Following your lead, I googled this rose and looked thru three pages. There were only two pics (one of it on Regan Nursery and the other was the 2nd pic at Dave's Garden) that actually made me think it was. They seemed VERY similar.
It was difficult to tell from all those pics, this rose seems to have many diffrent 'looks'.
But im fairly certain Paul Neyron isnt it. PN rather looks more like a peony; it seems more ruffly. The buds also look a lot more like a HTea than mine.
On my rose those green parts that cover the bud (stamens??) cover the bud even when the bud is maturing. Im not sure thats helpful info or not...probably just confusing.
I think my rose has some 'changing looks' too though. In rainy weather the blooms look more cupped, and some of the flowers never open, they are just a ball of never-opening petals (is this what you call 'balling'??). But its most often seen as I captured it in the above pics.
Thank you again for an actual lead rosyjennifer, and a thanks for everyone elses input.
CMK

    Bookmark   August 12, 2008 at 2:09AM
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rosyjennifer(z 6/7 MD)

Hi. More info is always helpful! : )

The green parts that cover the bud are the sepals, and they are very useful in ID'ing a rose.

Did you click on photos at the above link and look at the photos of Paul Neyron? (Some people miss that there are more photos.)

Others to look at:
Magna Charta - but I think the prickles are reddish on this rose
Yolande d'Arragon - but the leaves on this plant are more pointed than your plant's leaves - I think
Baronne Prevost - but this plant is more arching than your plant, I think...

I keep coming back to the fact that your plant is grafted so it is quite likely not an old garden rose as it appears.

Perhaps it is an early David Austin? I don't know when his roses first were sold in the US, but one of my favorite Austins is Cymbeline and it was introduced in 1983. John Clare looks sort of like it (maybe not enough petals?) but it is from 1994 which isn't close to your time frame.

If you go to Help Me Find, you can do an advanced search and look at just Austin roses, or you can enter plant characteristics and see if you can get an ID.

Have fun! (I'll keep thinking...!)

Here is a link that might be useful: advanced search on HMF

    Bookmark   August 12, 2008 at 11:11AM
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christinmk z5b eastern WA

I looked at all the pics of Paul, I dont think its it...or Magna Charta.
Yolanda doesnt look like it either. Yolanda looks like it has thicker petals at the bottom that fold backwards and under. Mine dont do that.
Barrone Prevost was remarkably similar. It had that ring of yellow stamens inm the center that the other two didnt. The shape of the rose was like it too. But the growth habit of it was much more arching (and the canes not as thick), just like you said.
I dont think its a David Austin. I looked at them and I dont think there old enough. Ive been loving the looks of Cymbaline, I just wish I had room for one in my yard!
This is better than a mystery! I love trying to id plants, its just a lot harder with roses. Theres just so many!
Your fantastic Lioness, thank you for all your effort!
CMK

    Bookmark   August 12, 2008 at 2:41PM
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joan_m(6)

Is this rose cane-hardy in zone 5? If so, you might check out the Canadian Explorer series. I'm not very familair with them, but I do know that they should be cane-hardy to zone 5. (Unlike most/all David Austin roses, which are not near as cane-hardy.)

    Bookmark   August 12, 2008 at 7:12PM
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christinmk z5b eastern WA

Im not sure what 'cane-hardy' means exactly. Does it mean that the canes dont die back in winter; that their perennial and produce leaves from it next year? If thats what it means than yes, it is cane hardy. Its never had any trouble overwintering. It just seems to have summer stress in-between bloom cycles.
I checked out a few from Canadian Explorer series and so far havent seen any like it. 'Frontenac' looked close but I think it had less petals than mine.
CMK

    Bookmark   August 12, 2008 at 10:52PM
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rosyjennifer(z 6/7 MD)

I love to ID old plants, too especially old roses. if you haven't read the book In Search of Lost Roses you might want to get a copy - it is a great book about rose rustlers and found roses.

I thought about the Canadian Explorer roses, too. And I looked at a website w/ pics and nothing looked close, either. That Your rose doesn't die back in zone 5 is an important clue. (Assuming you don't protect it, and that it isn't in a sheltered location.)

Have you sent a local rose society pictures? That might help.

    Bookmark   August 13, 2008 at 8:00AM
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rosyjennifer(z 6/7 MD)

Mrs John Laing? But supposedly it is almost thornless. but sometimes this trait is exaggerated. This rose is hardy to zone 4.

Here is a link that might be useful: hmf

    Bookmark   August 13, 2008 at 11:27AM
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christinmk z5b eastern WA

No I dont protect it at all. Its not neccisarily in a sheltered spot so much as a warmer spot. Its against the foundation of my house in the front yard (faceing south) right against a window and the chimney. This area by the foundation may be considered a little micro-climate; it stays fairly warm there.
I may try contacting a rose society if I cant find it. Even if I cant find it out its proper name ill still love this rose (though I am very curious as to what it is...).
rosyjennifer- I looked at your link and there was one pic of it that looked a lot like it. But the rest of them looked nothing like it. My rose, when in bud, doesnt really unfurl its petals in a 'swirling' way, if you know what I mean by that.
CMK

    Bookmark   August 13, 2008 at 1:38PM
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