F1, F2, Hybrids etc...

esox07September 24, 2011

Can someone explain some question to me in plain english:

1) what is F1, F2 etc...

2) If I start with "pure" seeds and grow the seeds without isolation and havest the seeds from the resulting plants, how long (how many generations) can I expect uniform offspring?

3) When I buy seeds from Pepper Joes, Hippy Seed Co, etc... am I getting pure seeds from isolated pure parent plants?

I guess I should have listened in 8th grade Biology class. :(

Bruce

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smokemaster_2007

F1=first seasons seeds from that plant,f2 2nd season etc.
From non isolated plants you might be growing f1 seeds forever since each season they might cross with something else.
I've read it takes at least 8 seasons to be able to assume a strain or hybrid is stable.If not longer.

There is no way of telling how long a seed will grow similar pods from non isolated seeds.
I think the farther away from pure seed you get the more chances there is that recessive traits from either parent will come out or that you'll get a new hybrid.

seeds companies should be selling pure seeds.But on E Bay you are tossing the dice.You could get anything from a lot of the sellers there.Buyer beware.

    Bookmark   September 25, 2011 at 3:17AM
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esox07

Thanks Smokemaster. If I take seeds from plants that were grown with pure seeds, and plant them, then from what I understand, those will be F1 plants. What are my chances that those plants will be exactly like the parent plant?

Yes, I never have nor will buy off Ebay. If I want a crap shoot, I will do a round robin trade and have better chances.

    Bookmark   September 25, 2011 at 12:33PM
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rick_in_va(7 VA)

Often hybrids are not stable beyond the F1 generation. That is, if you try to save seeds from a hybrid, you will actually be planting the F2 generation, and generally you will get one of the parents which was used to breed the hybrid rather than getting the hybrid itself. The ratio is 3/4 dominant parent and 1/4 recessive parent (and none of the hybrid type). Occasionally as Smoke says, a hybrid will breed true, but it takes several generations to determine for sure.

    Bookmark   September 25, 2011 at 8:02PM
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esox07

OK, correct me if I am wrong, but basically, if you save seeds (F1) from peppers that were grown from pure seeds, they will retain the traits of the pure parents....any of their seeds (F2) are a shot it the dark.

So unless you want surprises, you should not use seeds beyond F1. Is that correct?

    Bookmark   September 25, 2011 at 10:04PM
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tsheets(5)

It's been a really long time since I had any classes / studying in genetics, but, I'm thinking that F1 implies stable genetics. Beyond that, it depends on what it is crossed with. If the parents are the same F1 genetics, then it should be really close to them. If the parents are different, then, you've got a hybrid that will take generations to stabilize. That sounds too simple...I must be missing something. :-)

    Bookmark   September 26, 2011 at 10:40AM
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smokemaster_2007

Sounds too simple only because people don't know the work and time involved in stablizing a hybrid.
Usually it involves all kinds of selective re crossing and crossing of selected plants to just try and get the results you want.
They have to re grow only the hybrids they developed that have the specific traits they want the end resulting plant to have.
Disease resistance,pod size,color,productivity etc.
It's not just a matter of crossing 2 plants and self pollinating them.
The new hybrid won't necessarily always grow plants that are the same.
You can get several different plant characteristics from seeds grown from the same 2 plants or even pepper pod.

Just like when your brother or sister has blue eyes and you have brown eyes,taller or shorter etc..
It depends on what traits end up being dominant at the time.

    Bookmark   September 26, 2011 at 7:06PM
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habjolokia

Decided to look up, I knew I should have paid more attention in biology class. Who knew I would need this stuff lol

P Generation

The parental generation in the cross pollination between two true-breeding plants that differ in a particular trait.

F1 The F1 (first filial) generation is the hybrid offspring produced in the cross pollination of P generation

F2 The progeny of self-pollinated F1 generation plants.

Monohybrid cross is a breeding experiment between P generation (parental generation) organisms that differ in one trait.

Dihybrid cross is a breeding experiment between P generation (parental generation) organisms that differ in two traits.

Seems to me it would take some intense work to successfully cross breed and stabilize a plant.

    Bookmark   September 26, 2011 at 7:47PM
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nc_crn

It is a lot of work...rather it's a lot of time and space.

Once you obtain 2 (or more in the case of some hybrids which offer multiple variations under the same name, such as the Sprite melon) parent plants that can produce consistent offspring (aka, all or almost all your F1 seed produces the plant you want with the characteristics you want) they're generally protected very well.

If you want to stabilize it into an open pollinated variety, you have to grow out and select from many plants, narrowing down and eliminating plants that don't correctly carry the desired characteristics. Even then you really should grow out your narrowed down plants showing desired characteristics for 5-7+ generations before you're really sure you have a stable genetic line that will come true or mostly true to seed.

Eventually you'll end up realizing it's not going to stabilize or you'll get it done. In the meantime you have spent a lot of time and/or used a lot of space.

    Bookmark   September 26, 2011 at 8:00PM
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smokemaster_2007

Want to get more crazy?

The chart link below is what varieties will cross and what you can expect the results to be...

BUT then you might be able to cross with something else to make it cross with something that wouldn't normally be able to cross in the first place. :)

They are looking for the mother of all chiles.
One they think is promising is the Rocopica/Ulupica.
A wild variety that doesn't self pollinate.
You can only get pods from either Pubescens or Eximium.
Since Eximium can cross with other varieties some people speculate that some of the wilds might be the key to finding the origin of all peppers.
Stuff that in the jungle might have produced different stuff after years of crosses and enviornmental growing conditions to produce that specific pepper strain or varietiy.

Pretty interesting stuff but you can't mess with mother nature...

I only know 2 people addicted to Chiles that are dedicated enough to litterally spend years developing pepper varieties/strains and crosses to get whatever they wanted the end result to be.

Thats why Monsanto does gene engeneering instead of selective breeding.
Gene engeneering is faster. (More $$$ faster.)
With gene transplants they can give a plant genes from stuff that could never cross the same desired genes to get what they want.
Give a plant Phosphorecent squid genes so they can pick pods at night without lighting the field or whatever.

Either way,to me Selective breeding is interesting stuff.

Gene research on the other hand has too many unknown possibilities to be ok in my book.
Released long before the variety or whatever can be proven as safe to grow in mass quantities around the world.
Sure most of them are safe but all it will take is 1 that is able to be domonant in nature and we might be screwed big time.

Think super Kudzu etc.

It wasn't even geneticaly engeneered.
What if something is given it's genes but the hybrid ends up growing a non cob producing corn or useless wheat strain we can't get rid of because it can cross with a ton of other varieties of plants,even weeds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kudzu

Could some useless plant cross with the genetically Engeneered plant so you end up with a super productive weed that ends up being everything resistant but super invasive and productive-resistant to all de foliants etc..

Here is a link that might be useful: What varieties will cross-Peppers

    Bookmark   September 26, 2011 at 9:23PM
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esox07

OK, thanks guys. you answered one of my questions for sure and probably all of them. The one you did answer is: Why didn't I pay better attention in 8th grade Biology Class. You have reminded me just how confusing it really is and why I didn't pay attention. As for the other questions, hell, I don't remember any more. I think it had to do with F1 and F2 or was that an F16. I can't believe someone is growing peppers that look like airplanes.

    Bookmark   September 26, 2011 at 11:02PM
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smokemaster_2007

Those aren't just ordinary airplanes,they are jet,blimp cars that are loaded with pepper spray.

    Bookmark   September 27, 2011 at 1:54AM
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nc_crn

Fwiw, gene engineering does involve a lot of selective breeding and a lot of planting/time/land.

They have to produce parent plants that not only retain the gene they're trying to pass on, but that plant has to be able to cross with another plant to form a hybrid that shares the genes predictably enough to sell the seed. They will plant acres upon acres of plants and it's not uncommon at all for those acres to produce nothing. The success rate is less than or around 1%. Some companies can go a year or more without producing a new GMO product that's an upgrade over what they have while trying year-round all over the world.

It's brutally haphazard how they go about doing it. They "shoot" genes into many many many plants and grow out the offspring to see if the selected gene(s) even carried. Once/if it carries they have to make sure it's actually stable and healthy.

The "takes" they get on plants that do carry the gene generally need help from other plants who carry other genes they've stabilized. By hybridizing they can "stack" genes into their product.

I've been on Syngenta and Monsanto farms because breeding and research is what I did for a living up until health concerns knocked me down recently. I'll be back in the game soon enough, but I need many many months (year+) to heal properly and I'm thinking of going into park/conservatory maintenance or some other plant propagation field...not out of any change of heart, but because I can't physically be out in a field for long periods of time. I'm not going to sit out of work another year+ waiting for my body to catch up. I love what I do/did, but the world marches on and it's not slowing down for me.

They are very careful about what comes in and what goes out of their fields, especially their farm/field labs. You'd think you were in a CDC disease lab the way they segregate plant/seed/humans between buildings and fields...only without out the funny suits...though shoe-guards are common in some lab/field areas.

That said...I have concerns about having so many GMO crops out in the wild and the cross contamination of food crops. I'm not that worried about field corn/soy/grains/etc. as much as I am about the sweet corn trials I've seen. Not to say it's more dangerous, but I have a special concern about stuff we eat raw/unprocessed as vegetables. Even if sweet corn is almost nutrient bare, it's not a territory I'm personally comfortable with GMO going to. We already have GMO summer squash out there, but because of cost it's rarely used except in hard problem areas with mosaic virus. Most farmers don't find the cost worth it...yet. Papaya is probably the best known raw/unprocessed GMO crop most of us will run into as of now. Viruses have been destroying plantations of papaya all over and GMO has really helped control prices and kept many farms alive. No matter your feeling about it, it's there...not to be combative, it just is what it is and that's what's going on with it.

The hottest thing that ALL the GMO companies are working on right now is drought resistance. That's the holy grail of awesomeness. They've pushed disease and yields to great heights, but getting that while using less water input opens up a huge market in more areas. Cold/heat resistance is also a hot area.

The backlash from adding nutrient-richness that didn't previously exist in the plants was at one time a hot thing, but the backlash from the world at large has been pretty negative. It's a whole lot more media-attractive (therefore gets out in the news more) than a plant getting more drought resistant. There's not as much work being done there anymore except in academic circles.

Don't take any of this as an advertisement for GMO...I'm just trying to paint a picture of what's going on in all those fields scattered all over the place where they produce what will eventually become GMO seed.

    Bookmark   September 27, 2011 at 2:01AM
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Edymnion(7a)

In all honestly, we've been tinkering with the genetics of our food ever since we learned how to grow it. We're just using faster methods now.

I for one welcome our frankenfood overlords.

    Bookmark   September 27, 2011 at 3:14PM
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smokemaster_2007

To me there is a BIG difference in genetic engeneering stuff that would or could come from nature and stuff that could never cross without gene splicing.
my only problem is that some of the stuff they do isn't tested for the long term enough to really know what it'll do in the wild.
With fish Hybrids they make the end product sterile so it isn't supposed to be able to re produce in the wild.
Not so with plants that are engeneered.

Other wise I'd have no problem with Franken vegies or whatever.
Giving animal genes to a plant opens the door to all kinds of possible problems.

Your kid sure has healthy roots - nice purple buds and foliage too... LOL
Do you know where I can get some Sweet dog cuttings?
I here they raise their branches and water themselves. :)

    Bookmark   September 27, 2011 at 8:30PM
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northeast_chileman(6a)

I keep reading posts about saving seeds from apparent crosses that have unique features and others requesting seeds from them. This thread discusses the possibilities of what-cha gonna get and spend months growing.

NECM

    Bookmark   August 20, 2014 at 5:55PM
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seysonn(8a WA/HZ 1)

I don't know anything about GMO, but hybridizing is just duplicating what happens witout human intervention, by insects, wind,..

So when you buy "HYbrid" seed, it is often/normally F1 seed. That is , by crossing two varieties (doner and recipient ) The F1 seeds come from fro crossed flower/fruit.
Now suppose you are growing an F1 hybrid. If you save seeds from it those seeds are called F2. You won't knoe what you will get if you plant F2 seed. If you plant a good number of them you will get several variation (1) some may be just like F1 . (2) some might look like the mother (3) some might look like the father (4) and some will be just something never seen before.

Now , if you isolate the ones that look like F1 and plant whole bunch of seeds from it next season. Again, you will have the same/similar situation. Save seeds from the ones that are like F1, and plant next season again .... You continue this process for many years (donno how long) until you get a stabilized variety. Make it your family heirloom, give it a name ...That is your baby.

    Bookmark   August 20, 2014 at 9:15PM
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reginald_25(5)

Can someone explain some question to me in plain english:
1) what is F1, F2 etc...
Hey Bruce, up front, I am no scientist or statistician.
But for ONE trait of a hybridized plant produced from a single parental homozygous trait of interest (one recessive and the other dominant in the respective parents), ya got sometin like this for the probability of producing a hybrid plant @ generation n.
1/( 2^[Fn-1] )So at F=1, this thing results in one, or 100% hybrid offspring
At F=2, this resolves to 1/2 or 50% hybrids.
At F=3, 0.25 or 25% hybrids
At F=4, 0.125 or 12.5% hybrids
At F=8, 0.0078125 or ~0.8% hybrids (thus the "magic" F# of 8, I guess)
This representation is VERY simplistic and the thing is, in reality, surely much more complicated.
In the above example, it can be seen that the hybrid will be progressively replaced with homozygous offspring for that trait. However, it theoretically will NEVER completely disappear.
Reggie

    Bookmark   August 21, 2014 at 12:03PM
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DMForcier(8 DFW)

No scientist, perhaps, but not innumerate.

Interesting numbers.

Dennis

.. and vocabulary..

    Bookmark   August 21, 2014 at 2:11PM
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reginald_25(5)

No scientist, perhapsI, however, do attempt to emulate my number thing based upon Jethro Bodine's (Beverly Hillbillies) lessons in advanced cypherin'. I will never be able to attain his level of competency in it... I merely watch in awe and am entertained by his genius.
Now for multip[le traits on hybrids, the thick plottens... 1/( 2^[Fn-1] ) is something like:1 / ( 1/( 2^[Fn-1] ) * ( [Fn]^[ T-1 ] ) )representing the frequency of non-hybrid offspring at any Fn where "T" is/are the number of traits involved. Again, this is almost very assuredly overly-simplistic.
Now in this depiction there are more hybrids at F>1 and T>1, BUT they are not all the same hybrids as in the Fn=>1 and T=1 deal. Note here that if T=1, the last term always will be zero, making its exponentiation object 1.

However, in reality, I probably simply fabricated all of this in my quest to be Jethro-like.
Reggie

    Bookmark   August 21, 2014 at 4:11PM
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northeast_chileman(6a)

@Reggie, I have a question. Using your formula above at the F2 level if only 50% of the seeds saved from the fruit will produce the F1 trait what about the other 50%? Is it evenly split between the the parent genes and if it's the dominant gene that has a higher propagation rate what is it in percentage?

TIA
NECM

    Bookmark   August 21, 2014 at 7:40PM
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ottawapepper

The link below may help illustrate the genetics involved. It references tomato genes but it's the same for peppers.

FWIW

Here is a link that might be useful: Crossing

    Bookmark   August 21, 2014 at 8:22PM
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reginald_25(5)

I have a question. Using your formula above at the F2 level if only 50% of the seeds saved from the fruit will produce the F1 trait what about the other 50%?Yes correct, hopper of verdant grass blade. The other 2 of 4 (@ F2 fer ONE trait) will be DD or rr, where D is dominant and r is recessive. So in that case (F2), ya gots a Dr, rD DD and rr for a single trait selection. So 75% will appear identical to their parent (the F1 hybrid) for that trait. But this is deceptive because the DD and rr will produce seed (for THAT trait) that is identical to themselves and DD in this example is NOT a hybridized trait, but DD will have the appearance of the F1 hybrid. The Dr and rD will repeat the process of segregation in next generation, each generating seed of Dr and rD and DD and rr in that proportion for the SINGLE trait. So at F3 you gots 4 EACH of DD rr (thus 8, from the homos) and 1 each of of Dr, rD DD and rr from the 2 hybrids (another 8). So 16 total at F3. 4 of which assert Dr or rD for said trait and other 12 are DD or rr. Thus 12 are homozygous for said trait. So the hybridization character is getting washed out in this process.

Now I got these revelations from Jethro Bodine, an alumnus of Oxford. I rely on him for all manner of scientific veracity. Consider he had graduated from Year #5 at Oxford immersed in rigorous studies. Isaac Newton may have been a former student there.
Reggie

    Bookmark   August 21, 2014 at 8:50PM
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DMForcier(8 DFW)

I wonder what happens if you take Fn that displays a desired trait (nominal 50% at F1 for single trait), and cross it with another from the same group. Intuitively this would tend to produce that trait more frequently, but when I apply the numbers it doesn't seen to make much difference in subsequent generations.

Now be nice or I'll sic Granny on ya.

Dennis

    Bookmark   August 22, 2014 at 2:48PM
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reginald_25(5)

I wonder what happens if you take Fn that displays a desired trait (nominal 50% at F1 for single trait), and cross it with another from the same group. Intuitively this would tend to produce that trait more frequently, but when I apply the numbers it doesn't seen to make much difference in subsequent generations

At F=2, this resolves to 1/2 or 50% hybrids.

So IF you begin the process with 2 F1 hybrids (same traits having been hybridized, that is, essentially the same variety), its seed will be F2 and 0.5 of the plants produced by the seed will be hybrids and 0.5 (one each of the 2 homozygous plants) of will be homozygous, for that trait.
Now be nice or I'll sic Granny on ya.Granny maybe could learn me somthin' about religion, American civil war history, making moonshine and doctorin', but I would much prefer that ya sic Ellie May on me.

Reggie

    Bookmark   August 22, 2014 at 4:42PM
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ottawapepper

All this talk about Granny, Ya all are tugging at my heart strings.

I miss the old gal ;-(

    Bookmark   August 22, 2014 at 7:20PM
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northeast_chileman(6a)

Sorry, Minnie Pearl my favorite:

    Bookmark   August 22, 2014 at 8:09PM
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DMForcier(8 DFW)

> "I would much prefer that ya sic Ellie May on me."

She bein' yor cuzzin, she'd wup ya, then Granny'd wup the pieces. You don' wanna go there.

Dinnes

I'll be tendin' the still.

    Bookmark   August 22, 2014 at 9:23PM
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reginald_25(5)

She bein' yor cuzzin, she'd wup ya, then Granny'd wup the pieces. You don' wanna go there.Well, I might enjoy that... at least the first part.
Reggie

    Bookmark   August 22, 2014 at 11:10PM
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northeast_chileman(6a)

More info on crosses.

    Bookmark   January 24, 2015 at 3:32PM
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Edymnion(7a)

If you remember your highschool biology, this is where punnett squares come in.

You've got dominant traits (uppercase letters) and recessive traits (lowercase letters). Lets pretend Red pepper pod color is dominent, and yellow pods are recessive. So you have two purebred peppers next to each other, a red one (RR) and a yellow one (yy), and they accidentally cross.

.....y.....y
R..Ry..Ry
R..Ry..Ry

All of the seeds from that crossbreeding will be red, because the dominant red gene (R) is in all of the crosses, and it overrides the yellow.

Now, that is your F1 generation. Say you save the seeds from that F1, and plant them. Say there is no cross pollination, only self pollination (which is most likely), you get this:

.....R.....y
R..RR..Ry
y..Ry..yy

So you end up with a 25% chance that the F2 is going to be pure Red, a 50% chance that the offspring is going to be a hybrid that is red, and a 25% chance that it will be yellow.

If you were to take one of those Ry hybrid reds and backbreed it with a pure RR red, you'd get this:

.....R.....y
R..RR..Ry
R..RR..Ry

So your F3 would be 100% red, with a 50/50 chance of carrying the recessive yellow gene.

Now, peppers have a lot more going on than just a single thing like this, but it gives you the idea. Heirloom peppers are generally stable breeds, aka ones that have been bred out for at least 8-16 generations to ensure there are no weird recessive genes lurking around. Hybrids may look normal for several generations and then spit something weird back out again.

And then you get into the stuff with two dominant genes that end up creating actual hybrid appearances (like if in the above example Red and Yellow were both dominant, the RY offspring might come out Orange, for example, while still having offspring that come out Red or Yellow).

Scrupulous seed dealers will only sell seeds that have passed at least the 8th stable generation mark (as in, 8 generations of seed grown out with no surprises), sellers like Pepper Joe on the other hand will happily sell unstable hybrids if they can get the sale.

Its one of the reasons you need to look up the reputation for a seller, and never trust seed off of ebay. Because even if the ebay seller picks the seeds straight out of the pod and puts it into an envelope for you, they still might have been an open pollination cross that will mess it up for you.

But please, don't let that scare you away from anything thats OP, as its very unlikely that an OP pepper actually hybridizes, majority of the time a pepper self pollinates. Which, as long as its a stable line, will get you more of what you want.

Even then, I occasionally like to intentionally plant F1s from an unstable line (like the snacking sweet peppers you get from the grocery store) just to see what I get. Peppers sold for food don't need to be stable, and it can be interesting to see what grows (especially when it gives you a glimpse into what they're hybridizing to make the peppers they sell you).

Sometimes the mystery of what grows is the most fun part!

    Bookmark   January 26, 2015 at 3:32PM
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seysonn(8a WA/HZ 1)

Thanks Edymnion. I sure didn't remember my HS biology. hehe

Now couple of question.

(1) what will happen if both A and B were equally dominant ?
(2) Is there a difference which of the A and B is pollen donor and which is the recipient ?

Seysonn

    Bookmark   January 26, 2015 at 4:57PM
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Edymnion(7a)

1) What you usually get is expression of both traits at once. In the example above, you'd get red and yellow expressed at the same time for orange. Or you could get each effect expressed in different areas of the organism, an example of which is a calico cat (the orange and black fur colors are both trying to express themselves).

But again, in peppers we're talking about a LOT of traits (color, pod shape, heat, plant grow style, etc), so different genes interact in different ways that can be difficult to predict.

2) Not for peppers, no. Least not that I'm aware of.

    Bookmark   January 26, 2015 at 6:42PM
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2ajsmama

Edymnion - thanks for the lesson, I'll have to go back and take time to absorb it. But I just got some Carmen F5 seeds in the swap, was thinking of starting those since the Carmen F1 hybrid supposedly sets fruit over a wide temperature range and is about 75 DTM (to red I assume). But I have limited space - can onlt fit about 100 pepper plants this year and I have a lot of others to try - so many I can't decide! Would it be best just to start maybe 3 seeds of this one and try to grow them in pots (I haven't had much success with pots though, I can overwinter but neglect them too much to get fruit), save my bed space for Giant Marconi instead?

BTW, did you guys hear Donna Dixon (who played Ellie Mae) died not that long ago ;-(?

    Bookmark   January 28, 2015 at 1:56PM
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