Need help in identifying a red velvet rose

ramblinrosez7b(JerseyShore)June 10, 2005

I took a few cuttings from a rose bush that was in my Mom and Dad's yard after they both passed away and before the house was sold. And it finally bloomed. It has a mild old rose fragrance and the petals are like velvet. I never knew it was there because it never bloomed. This photo shows it all the way opened although it took a few days for that. The bush was about 6 ft. high. I have no idea how long the bush was there but am quessing it was there when my Mom and Dad moved in 15 years ago. Does anyone want to take a guess at what it is. The photo does not show the true velvet in the petals.

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millieon(zone 6a)

Looks like my Artic Flame a Brownell rose.

    Bookmark   June 11, 2005 at 9:54AM
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Hi Millie,

Thanks for your suggestion. I looked up Artic Flame in and noticed your photos. This very well could be Artic Flame, it looks very mcuh like it. A friend of mine believes it is Crimson Glory. Well I probably will never know for sure but I know that I will keep it as long as I can. I love it!
Thanks again

    Bookmark   June 11, 2005 at 9:16PM
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johnreb_va7(z7 VA)

RamblinRosez, let me suggest a little-known rose-identification Clue that is particulalrly helpful for red roses. This clue won't tell you the specific name of your rose, but it can eliminate lots of red rose-varieties which look like your rose.

It is also is helpful for identifying orange, pink, and lavender/purple roses.

The clue is the color of the petals' base-area & "attachment-tip." They come in about four colors (maybe five):
"nearly-white" (a quite pale yellowish-greenish)
deep-yellow (sometimes, "electric" deep-yellow)

Here are some examples, All of the following roses are classed as "dark-red" ...but they differ significantly in their petal-base-area color.

Europeana's petal-base area is white.
Taboo's is white/nearly-white.
Oklahoma's is nearly-white/butter-yellow.
Chrysler Imperial's is electric deep-yellow.
Mr. Lincoln's is also electric deep-yellow ...but on a much larger area of the petal's base than with Chrysler Imperial.

So... if a red rose has a nearly-white petal-base area, you know it definitely isn't Chrysler Imperial or Mr. Lincoln - or any other red rose which has deep-yellow based petals.

Important note:
The base-tip color lightens quickly as the petal ages. So, we should only check the base-tip color on "fresh" (newly-opened) blooms. Furthermore, the very outermost ring of petals has the "oldest" petals on the bloom - therefore, don't check the outermost ring. Nor the small central petals.

I'll give you one more example of the importance of base-tip color for rose identification. There have recently been several threads about "takeover" by Dr. Huey rootstock. Dr. Huey's blooms have white base-tips. If a red rose's base-tips aren't white, the rose is not Dr. Huey.


    Bookmark   June 12, 2005 at 9:34AM
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rosetom(7 Atl)

It does not look like Crimson Glory. CG has a tendency to blacken, rather than turn magenta (although it will under certain conditions). Most everyone would describe it as a strong fragrance, not mild. Also, the form doesn't look right, and there are too many petals of the wrong shape. The leaves also look a little long. CG's leaves are fairly small and round in shape.

    Bookmark   June 13, 2005 at 1:36PM
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Hi JohnReb, thank you so much for the interesting information about the petal base coloring to identify a rose. The rose in the photo above has been discarded but I have another bud that I have to wait to open on this plant and then I can tell what the base color is. If my memory serves me right though I don't believe there was a base color but I could be wrong and will check again. Now besides the ones that you have listed, how would I find the petal base colors of other red roses?

Hi rosetom, so I guess we can rule out Crimson Glory, thanks for advising me on this, and I will let my friend know.

    Bookmark   June 13, 2005 at 8:32PM
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johnreb_va7(z7 VA)

RamblinRosez, I've gotten all the info I gave you about petal base-tip colors - and which rose-varieties have which color base-tip - from doing personal observation.

The POSITIVELY-IDENTIFIED reds (meaning, they came with a metal ID-tag) I grow in my yard are:
Christian Dior
Chrysler Imperial
Climbing Don Juan
Climbing Improved Blaze
Climbing Don Juan
Dr. Huey
Lasting Love
Mister Lincoln
Night Time
Red Masterpiece

So, I can tell you the petal base-area color for any of those roses. But if any of them looked very similar to your photos, I would have mentioned them to you already - and asked you what your rose's base color is. : )

I know the color of Europeana's base-tip only because I checked some petals at a local Lowes store, which had blooming METAL-TAGGED Europeana bushes for sale. Please pardon my emphatic repetition of "metal-tagged." Since a great many paper-labeled roses turn out to be mis-labeled, we cannot trust paper-labeled roses for petal-base color information.

(For example: I publicly insisted for two years that Oklahoma didn't have much fragrance, and had unusually long vase-life - then I discovered my Oklahoma rose was a mislabeled one. Aaarrrggghhh - how mortifying! To this day, I still don't know its actual name. Aaarrrggghhh again!)

You'll need to find some people on the Forums whose red rose looks like yours - and check whether (or not) theirs has the same base-tip color as yours.

You've gotten two ID-guesses so far - Arctic Flame and Crimson Glory. Ask Mollie what the base-tip color of her Arctic Flame is, and see if it matches yours . Of course, that won't *guarantee* your rose is Arctic Flame. But petal base-tip color is a helpful indicator when you add it to other ID-clues like fragrance, bloom-lifespan, leaf-color, glossiness, etc.


    Bookmark   June 13, 2005 at 9:36PM
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rosetom(7 Atl)

I owe you an apology. This afternoon after work, I took a long look at my Crimson Glory. After the tropical storm and almost 10 solid days of rain that ended only a few days before that, I have to admit that parts of my Crimson Glory looks like your rose.

There is a open, almost spent bloom that is a dead ringer for the magenta one in your photos. I even noticed that the brand new, vigorous, but slightly sun-deprived leaves are even elongated like yours.

Given the fact that yours is a cutting, and just getting started in a pot, mild fragrance may not be that unusual. It may also mimic the poor conditions we've had in Atlanta lately.

So, I would now have to say that it's highly likely your rose is Crimson Glory.

    Bookmark   June 14, 2005 at 6:36PM
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Hi JohnReb, So sorry to hear about Oklahoma, that would have been very upsetting to me too. I am very grateful for your explanation and list on the red roses, as soon as the bud on this plant blooms I will let you know the base color and then we can go from there. Again thanks so very much for all your help.

Hi rosetom, Thanks for getting back to me on this. Referring to what JohnReb told us about petal base coloring, I must ask you is what is the base color of your Crimson Glory??

    Bookmark   June 14, 2005 at 8:41PM
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rosetom(7 Atl)

OK, I'm not convinced it will help, but sounds like JohnReb's been doing it for awhile. I went out in the dark and snagged a couple of petals a few seconds ago. Only the very tip of the base is white, mostly on the inside only. It appears to change to the overall petal color almost immediately, and there is very little or no white on the reverse side.

The petals appear to actually have a lighter, pinker reverse which I've never noticed before. The velvet finish is only on the inside of the petal, too. The petal reverse has a smooth, somewhat shiny finish.

I'm not convinced this will be any help. As I remarked above, the flower is not representative of a typical flower from Crimson Glory. They tend to start from almost black buds and bloom in the heat with a very rich velvety red, with black highlights. The fragrance is almost beyond compare on a mature bush.

I will always grow a Crimson Glory if I can.

    Bookmark   June 14, 2005 at 9:51PM
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rosetom(7 Atl)

Here's a CG semi-bud in the sun on a mature bush - it looks nothing like the one that's on it today:

    Bookmark   June 14, 2005 at 10:04PM
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millieon(zone 6a)

Hi Rambling Rose. In this album there are few photos of Artic Flame from couple of years ago.

She is in bloom now and for the first time has a strong fragrance. Unfortunately, our winter in Ontario was very severe for roses and she is struggling this year.

I also have Europeana, Imperial Blaze, and in Florida grow Chrysler Imperial and Mr. Lincoln.

Hope you find the correct name!


Here is a link that might be useful: Artic Flame

    Bookmark   June 14, 2005 at 10:33PM
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johnreb_va7(z7 VA)

Rosetom, I understand your hesitation about accepting "petal base-tip-color" as being a valid (reliable) ID-clue. So, please test my theory yourself, using "Scientific Methodology" for the test. In science, for a theory to be accepted as Valid, the theory must produce the same result "consistently" - and also be "replicatable" (produce the same result when other researchers test it).

Select four large petals from a healthy, fresh (young newly-opened) red-rose bloom. But not from the very-outermost ring of petals, nor from the small central petals). At their base is a small point, which I call the "attachment-tip." It will be the same color on each of the four petals taken from that bloom. Decide whether that tip-color is closest to one of the following colors:
"Nearly-white" (a quite pale yellowish-greenish color)
Deep-yellow (some are an "electric" deep-yellow).

Take note of the "comparative size" of the non-red area at the petals' base. (I've noticed that although the base-tip-color of Mr. Lincoln and Chrysler Imperial is the same (electric deep-yellow), the deep-yellow area of Mr. Lincoln's petals is consistently about twice as large as Chrysler Imperial's deep-yellow area.)

Next, do the same tip-examination procedure for (say) three other varieties of red roses in your garden.

The result I got was:
(1) The attachment-tip / base-area color was the same for each of the four petals from a particular varieity's bloom.

(2) The attachment-tip / base-area color of some red-rose varieties is distinctly different from that of other red varieites

I have two bushes of Mr. Lincoln. I checked the tip-color of large FRESH petals taken from each of the two bushes. The tip-color was the same (specifically, electric deep-yellow) for both bushes. I also have three bushes of Dr. Huey - and the tip-color on large FRESH petals from each of them was the same (specifically, white). This data led me to third conclusion:
(3) Petal-tip color seems to be a "genetically-set" characteristic.

Important Note: The petals' tip-color tends to fade lighter as the bloom ages - therefore, for the tip-color test to be valid, check ONLY some large FRESH petals from a newly-opened bloom.

I am now quite certain that if someone handed me a large fresh petal from each of four red-rose varieties WHOSE TIP-COLOR I AM FAMILIAR WITH ...I can correctly name the rose each petal came from.

Please do not take what I've said here as being bragging - take it as "interesting amateur scientific research." And please check my Petal-Tip-Color Theory for yourself, on various red roses from your garden. Let me know the results you get.

(As I noted elsewhere, the theory also seems to work well on orange, pink, and lavender roses - but white blooms and yellow blooms can be difficult, because those colors are also tip-colors.)


    Bookmark   June 15, 2005 at 9:08AM
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rosetom(7 Atl)

JohnReb, I did allow that you've been doing this awhile, and it may indeed have some merit.

My only hesitation is that you've said yourself that the coloring is dependent on the FRESHNESS of the bloom. That seems a pretty big fault, because how do you define freshness? That could vary quite a bit.

However, if I thought there was no value in it, I sure-as-heck wouldn't have gone out in the dark in my pajamas last night and snagged a couple of petals to study and post about - seriously!

    Bookmark   June 15, 2005 at 11:55AM
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Hi everyone, I apologize for not responding sooner. Rosetom, That was so nice that you went out in the middle of the night in your jammies to check CG, I really do appreciate it. Hehe, I had to chuckle when I read that because I remember myself doing the same thing with my big furry bedroom slippers and terrytowel housecoat chasing the rabbits away from eating my roses. My husband was yelling out the window, "Get in here, you crazy woman."
Ah, what we don't do for our roses, huh? Anyway, just wanted to let you know the bud has not bloomed yet, still waiting for it to open and will check the color base as soon as it does. Again thanks for letting me know the color base of your CG.
Looking at your pic above of CG which is beautiful btw, I have to say that my rose does not resemble yours that much. And you mentioned that your CG starts with black buds and has black highlights, well mine does not have any black at all. The bud is a deep red and opens to a lighter red. Although the velvet is on the inside of the petals, but not on the outside just as you said CG has.

Thanks Millie for sharing those pics of Artic Flame, the color is almost identical to mine but the form of AF is a little different.

    Bookmark   June 16, 2005 at 10:20PM
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rosetom(7 Atl)

Well, remember - the picture up there is ideal. As I said, the flowers on my bush right now look like yours: magenta.

I'm intrigued by your agreement on the petal reverse non-velvety finish. If your petal base tips also agree using JohnReb's technique, then maybe you really do have a CG!

    Bookmark   June 17, 2005 at 12:34AM
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Back again. Well it bloomed out and the base color is white. And Rosetom I have to let you know that there is no white on the outside of the petal only on the inside just as you said your CG petal was. So I do believe we have a winner....maybe. And also I want to add that on the tips of the petals there is a little smidgen of black. So I think we are closer to calling this one Crimson Glory than to any other.
Here is a photo of the new bloom, it sorta blurred out on me a little.

Thanks so much JohnReb for your helpful theory about base petal coloring, very very insightful.

    Bookmark   June 17, 2005 at 5:16PM
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rosyjennifer(z 6/7 MD)

Johnreb, I have 2 reds not on your list. (I gathered petals from just opened buds.)

Papa Meilland which I'm not absolutely sure is PM. I got it from Arena Rose 6 or so yrs ago and don't remember if it had a tag. It's attachment tips are small and bright yellow, not buttery yellow.

Erotika (1968) is my other red. It is own-root and from Vintage. It's attachment tips are almost exactly like PM's, small and bright yellow. Erotika is not as deep a red as PM, it fades to a brighter, lighter red, with no magenta. It is very fragrant of true rose with a bit of spice.

Here is a link that might be useful: erotika

    Bookmark   June 18, 2005 at 8:25AM
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