Needing help IDing mystery rose

brenhelmsJuly 4, 2005

Purchased this rose tagless from our local Wal-Mart because I loved the color and bloom form-but I have not been able to put a name to it. The 2 initial blooms were small-2" at the most, and blooms are appearing singly, like a hybrid tea, but I suspect it may be a floribunda. The bush is small in size-though it is in the midst of its second flush, it has yet to gain height. New leaf growth is red, but leaves are medium green in color upon maturity. No real fragrance detected. Would appreciate any help anyone can give.

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johnreb_va7(z7 VA)

As Rosetom has astutely mentioned in another thread, it's way too early in the bush's development for us to be able to *reliably* distinguish the characteristic clues which will tell us its identity.

One thing we do know. WalMart's bodybags and plastic-potted bushes tend to be the "expired-Patent" (older) rose-varieties.

(WalMart does sell some in-Patent varieities, in the form of plastic-wrapped peat-pots.)

If you want a "snap guess" at the moment looks like either Tropicana (1960), or Montezuma (1955). Might even be Touch Of Class (1986). Then again, there's Camelot (1964). At this stage, it could be any of them ...or something else. A couple of shots of more-opened blooms, and an average-petal-count for them, would help.


    Bookmark   July 4, 2005 at 9:56PM
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I have Camelot and Montezuma, so I know it's not those. I have thought of Tropicana-but the color doesn't seem consistent. I'm currently leaning towards Sonia. I had thought it was most likely Cherish-but it doesn't really act like a floribunda at all-loads of new growth with only one bloom per stem-so I'm thinking now that it is most likely a grandiflora.

The petal count appears to be low-on the 2 initial blooms, I estimated less than 30-it also opened to flat-but initial blooms can be deceiving. Those first blooms were very small-and these appear to be as small-meaning 2-3". I would post those photos, but the first blooms can be so misleading. The blooms from my Smoky and my Camelot-as well as my Montezuma-are so different now that the bushes have been in the ground for a while-fuller and richer color on all bushes.

Thanks for the guidance, and I will post more pictures as this new bloom opens. I welcome any suggestions.

    Bookmark   July 4, 2005 at 11:23PM
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rosetom(7 Atl)

There is a very coral-pink/salmon color to the flower, with blending toward lighter highlights. JohnReb is right about Touch of Class - at least for the coloring. It is identical.

However, the form is not. So whether that's immaturity, or whether it's really a different rose, I don't know. I think TOC is still too recent for Walmart bodybags. Plant patents are good for 20 years. That would put TOC on the borderline. Even if it has expired, it's not been long enough to be distributed widely into Walmart commerce.

The pictures of Sonia on HelpMeFind do not look this rose, in my opinion. Sorry I can't be of further help.

    Bookmark   July 5, 2005 at 9:50AM
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Thanks rosetom-I'm thinking it may be Touch of Class-here is the latest picture of the bloom as it has opened (disregard the tears in the outer petals-we had a recent storm and it appears to have damaged it slightly):

I purchased this rose in a container, since I'm not a big fan of roses in bags (though I'm kicking myself about not buying that Sombreuil in a bag when I had a chance). This was a special rose promo event at our Wal-Mart-they were even offering Frau Karl Druschki at the time-so perhaps it is a Touch of Class after all. Thanks to everyone for the assist.

    Bookmark   July 6, 2005 at 1:27PM
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rosetom(7 Atl)

Sorry - that is not Touch Of Class. Touch Of Class's form is unmistakeable in bloom, and that's not it.

The yellowing in the inside may be another clue to your search. That seems distinctive now that we see it open. Sorry I can't help more.

    Bookmark   July 7, 2005 at 11:05AM
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johnreb_va7(z7 VA)

Okay... now that we have more info, plus a photo of the opened-up bloom, we now know the rose isn't any of my very-preliminary guesses.

In view of the new info and photo - and your suspicion that the rose is a grandiflora - I'll guess that it might be Candelabra.

I have one Candelabra bush in my yard ...and sometimes its blooms look a lot like your opened-bloom photo.

Please review the group of Candelabra photos at HelpMeFind and you'll see what I mean. Here's the URL for the photos:
(Or use the Link at the end of this post.)
NOTE: the final photo is by Karl Bapst - who's bloom-shots are often are waaay too "blue."

Here is the ARS description-data for Candelabra:
Orange & orange blend [ARS ob] blooms.
Slight fragrance.
20 to 25 petals.
Average diameter 3". [Mine range from 2 - 4 inches.]
In my opinion, my Candelabra's FULLY-MATURE leaves are dark-green and semi-glossy. Less-mature leaves are medium-green.

Left on the bush, the bloom-color ages to a semi-deep slighty "orangish" pink (as you'll see in the HelpMeFind photos). SOMETIMES the blooms fade to a lighter edging. I used the emphasized word "sometimes" because the blooms usually shatter from rainfall - or even a moderate breeze - before they can age to the light-edged coloration.

As a cut-flower, the petals tend to fall off in just 2 to 4 days, depending on the age of the bloom when it was cut. Therefore I don't include Candelabra in my bouquet-gifts to neighbors, friends, & passers-by.

Unlike Gingersnap, which can have a similar bloom-color in the early stages, Candelabra's blooms don't fade toward apricot.

Time for the obligatory disclaimer: This is just a guess at your rose's identity, based on what we've seen and heard so far about what is clearly an "immature" plant. (And of course, your mentioning that it seems to be a grandiflora.)


Here is a link that might be useful: Candelabra photos at HelpMeFind dotcom

    Bookmark   July 7, 2005 at 12:53PM
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Here's a picture of the mystery rose now fully opened:

The first blooms were decidedly pink-in this second flush, they are decidedly orange. The first blooms were 2"-this bloom is 3". This is what has totally confused me on this id.

Thanks for the input, JohnReb-I had thought it might be a Candelabra-but to find such a recent entry to the rose world-not to mention such a recent ARS winner-at Wal-Mart at such a good price seemed highly unlikely. Does this picture confirm your suspicions that it is Candelabra? When I woke up this morning and saw how completely it had opened up, I doubted it was Touch of Class-that plus the orange is even more "orangey" now than before. Do you have a picture of your own Candelabra for comparison purposes?

    Bookmark   July 7, 2005 at 11:27PM
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Our local WalMart had a TON of roses looking like this that were labeled "SPARTAN." I bet that's what it is. I got one as a cheapie bagged bareroot at HD before the potted roses came out, and it still hasn't bloomed yet, so I can't compare. Ya might look into it tho. It's supposed to be a floribunda, but the ones at our WM didn't have a whole lot of clusters.

    Bookmark   July 8, 2005 at 12:48AM
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johnreb_va7(z7 VA)

Brenhelms, I have paid particular attention to the "behavior" of blooms as their lifespan ends. From that, I have come to believe that a bloom's "death-behavior" tends to be a genetically-set characteristic ...and thus it is something that is useful for Rose Identification.

Here are three "Bloom-death Behaviors" that I have observed:
(1) The petals fall off the bloom GRADUALLY (during a period of several days) - and as singles or in small groups of petals.
(2) The petals fall SUDDENLY (large numbers will fall in a single day, two days at most). Some people describe this effect with the trem "shatter" ...or "quick-shattering."
(3) The bloom does not shatter - but instead, as the petals dry out at the end of their life, the bloom stays mostly intact.

Putting all of this very simply... there are rose-varieties whose blooms CHARACTERISTICALLY die in one of three ways:

Candelabra is one of the Sudden-shattering roses.

So... if your mystery-rose is actually Candelabra, it will tell you so by the behavior of its blooms as they die.

For anyone who is interested, here are some examples of roses in each "bloom-death behavior" category.
Sudden-shattering: Voodoo, Climbing Royal Gold, Mr. Lincoln, Candelabra.
Gradual-shattering: Double Delight, Blue Girl.
Non-shattering: St. Patrick, Gold Medal, Arizona, Hondo Coral Sea (aka Orange Passion).

I'm probably going to get argument from some people about the roses I named in that listing here is a Disclaimer:
I'm just speaking my OPINION, which is based on six years of diligently observing the bloom-behavior of the roses in my own yard, here in zone 7 Virginia. Folks, I'm well-aware that "Your own mileage may vary" ...and with it, your opinion. I'm too old to think that I am "always correct." : )


    Bookmark   July 8, 2005 at 12:22PM
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Hi Beth-wish mine were a Spartan-from the info I gathered on the net, it smells wonderful! Mine has some smell, according to my husband-but it must be faint, because I cannot detect it.

Here's the second bloom-maybe it will help with id:

JohnReb-will keep you posted on the shattering, if and when it occurs. We really like this rose, no matter who it is. Oh, by the way, can we add Montezuma to the list of those roses whose petals go on and on and on? I deadheaded my bush a few days ago, and the petals never flinched!

    Bookmark   July 8, 2005 at 4:54PM
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johnreb_va7(z7 VA)

Yes, certainly Montezuma belongs on the Long-lasting list. (I included it when I wrote a longer list in a post over in the Rose Discussion forum last month.)

For brevity's sake, the list in my post above intentionally listed only a few examples for each category. But when I was out in the yard today (doing "Japanese Beetle Patrol"), I realized my short list should have included the absolute #1 rose for bloom-shattering ...Pristine.

But on second thought, including Pristine might have been mislaeding. Here is why - and I want to make sure nobody misunderstands the term I used. "Sudden-shattering" does NOT mean the rose's blooms have an unusually short lifespan (though they may). "Sudden-shattering" only means that when the bloom gets around to dying (in however long or short a time that might be), it tends to drop most of its petals "all of a sudden."

In your most recent photo, the color of the bush's new-growth leaves reminds me to ask you about the color of your rose's very-young new shoots. The color of Candelabra's is distinctive - a "burgundy-purplish" color.

Please do keep us informed about whether or not your rose's blooms do the Sudden-shattering behavior.


    Bookmark   July 8, 2005 at 11:04PM
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I'm beginning to believe mystery rose is a 'Dream Orange'. Below I've included a url showing a picture of this rose taken by an owner of one-and this is a picture of my rose:

Any opinions? Does anyone have any experience with this rose?

Here is a link that might be useful: Dream Orange at

    Bookmark   July 10, 2005 at 5:10PM
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northspruce(z3a MB CDA)

Sorry this is off topic, but JohnReb I am very interested in your shattering list - I didn't see it on the Roses Forum, guess it moves to fast sometimes. Do you still have the info handy? If so you could post a link or e-mail me or something - thanks! :)

    Bookmark   July 10, 2005 at 11:22PM
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llpnut(8 NTX)

here's a Spartan, for comparison...(but Spartan does have some fragrance) ;^D
Dreadful pic, wide open, but, I was thinking Spartan as you described it

maybe the foliage in the pic will help?

    Bookmark   July 11, 2005 at 9:01AM
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