cold zone hybridizing

canadian_rose(zone 3a)January 1, 2013

Hi, I've never hybridized before and am thinking about doing it here in zone 3.

I can't seem to find any information except how to hybridize in the warmer zones.

If I can get 2 or 3 of my potted roses (46 potted roses in garage) to bloom more quickly than the others by moving them in and out of the garage as soon as it gets warm enough (can't do that with all my roses - too many - so I wait until all signs of night frost are gone), then I can get the hybridized hips to ripen before it gets too cold here.

But I have no clue what to do with the seeds in the winter time. Can't find any info.

On another thread here someone said that if the hip is planted directly into the soil medium then germination would be delayed for months and months. Now doesn't that sound like something that would work for me?? Then I could just leave them in my garage under wraps (I have an overhead heater to keep the garage at a cool (but not too cold) temperature. Then could I take them outside in the warmer weather - June.

Is there a better way?? Please be as specific as possible - I'm feeling pretty inept right now. :)

Thanks for all your help!
Carol

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riku(Z3 Canada)

Start here and expand your search through their site and you will find lots of information. Nothing really that different for cold vs warm. Lots of Hybrizers up in Edmonton.

Here is a link that might be useful: How to hybrdize

    Bookmark   January 1, 2013 at 10:35PM
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canadian_rose(zone 3a)

Thanks Riku - I looked at Henry's amazing site about hybridizing - very detailed and with pictures too! Thanks so much Henry!!!

However - I'm just not sure about the time difference between the warmer zones and the cooler zones.

Do I follow his timeline? Then my roses would be ready to start growing in February. Could they stay under flourescent lights until it's warm enough to keep them outside for the day time? That seems like a long time. Any ideas on that?

Thanks!
Carol

    Bookmark   January 1, 2013 at 11:29PM
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donaldvancouver(cool wet z8)

I keep my seeds in the back of the refrigerator, in baggies with a bit of soil. I intend to bring them out to germinate in March or April, or when they start sprouting by themselves in the fridge, whichever comes first.

I am very interested in hybridizing cold-hardy roses- there is still so little diversity. As Henry Ford would say, you can have any kind of rose you want in Zone 3 as long as it's a pink shrub or a red shrub.

don

    Bookmark   January 3, 2013 at 11:29PM
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canadian_rose(zone 3a)

That's kind of my point :) - when they start to germinate - it's a super long time until they can go outside. So do I keep them under fluourescent lights for 3 or 4 months?? Isn't that too long??
Thanks again
Carol

    Bookmark   January 4, 2013 at 12:31AM
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donaldvancouver(cool wet z8)

I think it would be worth a try. I used to have a setup for seedlings that had 4 x 40 watt fluorescents suspended just a few inches above the seedlings, and I could raise the fixture as the seedlings grew. The secret is to provide lots of light, close to the plants, or any seedling will get straggly.

I haven't done rose seedlings for 3 or 4 months, though. Not sure how big they would get. You could always give 'em a haircut if you needed to.

    Bookmark   January 4, 2013 at 9:59PM
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canadian_rose(zone 3a)

A haircut - that would be a good idea - would help the seedlings get bushier!

Yeah, my research found by googling said 40 watt fluourescent bulbs. So nice to have back up from you.

Let's say I have 50 seedlings would 4 of the lights be enough?

Thanks for your help everyone!!
Carol

    Bookmark   January 5, 2013 at 2:38AM
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donaldvancouver(cool wet z8)

Well you'd light an area maybe 3 feet by 4 feet with that, which would give you (I think) just under 6" by 6" per plant, which would be feasible I would think.
I know there are people who have done this here online- maybe they can chime in with the voice of rose experience.
You don't need a fancy horticultural setup- just get your fixtures at Home Dep or Rona. If you use two warm white bulbs and two cool white bulbs you can get a pretty good spectrum very inexpensively.

    Bookmark   January 5, 2013 at 11:19AM
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donaldvancouver(cool wet z8)

Oh and if you use square pots you can use your space much more efficiently.

    Bookmark   January 5, 2013 at 12:31PM
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canadian_rose(zone 3a)

Square pots - great idea!

So I don't need fluourescenet lighting?? But, it's really, really hard to find light bulbs here that aren't the energy savings bulbs - they don't provide warmth I think. Hmmm.

Thanks!

    Bookmark   January 5, 2013 at 9:40PM
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donaldvancouver(cool wet z8)

Sorry yes you do need fluorescent- I shouldn't have said bulbs, I meant tubes- the big long 40 watt ones. Incandescent bulbs are way too hot and even the new compact fluorescent (energy saving) ones are too hot.

    Bookmark   January 5, 2013 at 9:47PM
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canadian_rose(zone 3a)

Thanks!
I've started another thread on rose hips. Maybe you guys could check that out.
Carol

    Bookmark   January 6, 2013 at 4:23AM
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overdrive

use t8 lamps - the big 40 watt are obsolete - you get more light from less watts - see my garden of rosa rugosa Hansa:

    Bookmark   January 6, 2013 at 6:35PM
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overdrive

Henry Kuska has excellent info on germination - first you treat with enzymes (like going through a bird's gut, or a cow), followed by cold stratification (artificial winter), then germination. I did this a few years ago and it works.
I don't know anything about hybridization, though, just how to germinate and grow indoors.

see my indoor T8 fluorescent garden. you really need t8's - this is a very common modern lamp.

    Bookmark   January 6, 2013 at 6:40PM
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canadian_rose(zone 3a)

I've never heard of T8 Fluourescent lights. Where would I find them?
Your plants look great!!

Yeah, I read that about the enzymes from Henry's articles -but I have NO clue how to get them.
Carol

    Bookmark   January 6, 2013 at 6:53PM
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donaldvancouver(cool wet z8)

Overdrive- your Hansas look great. Clearly the T8s work. Are those the plants you started with your modified burrito method a few months ago?

Carol- I think you can get T8s at the big box stores. Certainly I've seen them in aquarium supply stores.

d

    Bookmark   January 6, 2013 at 7:00PM
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canadian_rose(zone 3a)

Oh, that's helpful thanks don!
Carol

    Bookmark   January 6, 2013 at 7:57PM
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henry_kuska

I recommend the powdered "drain cleaner" type enzymes that state on the box that they will dissolve paper (cellulose).

Here is a link that might be useful: Google search for enzyme drrain cleaner

    Bookmark   January 8, 2013 at 7:37PM
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canadian_rose(zone 3a)

Oh, that's awesome - I googled and found some at Home Depot. I've read your info on the rose hybridizer forum that the enzyme drain cleaner is used to get rid of the seed casing so the seeds will better germinate. I never knew what you meant by enzyme cleaners.

Thanks!
Carol

    Bookmark   January 9, 2013 at 12:07PM
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trospero(8)

IMO, the enzyme treatment is completely unnecessary. Ive grown tens of thousands of roses from seed over a fifteen year period and never once used enzymes to prompt seed to germinate. With all due respect to Mr. Kuska, this step isn't necessary. If you have stratified your seeds correctly (cold treatment in the fridge), you won't need to do anything "extra", like enzyme soaks.

    Bookmark   January 13, 2013 at 10:54AM
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canadian_rose(zone 3a)

Thanks trospero - I'm very grateful to all who have helped me, but I think I'll take your advice then. Easier is easier. :)
Carol

    Bookmark   January 13, 2013 at 1:34PM
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henry_kuska

Yes, if you try to germinate many seeds, you will probably get some/many to germinate sooner or later. However, if you would like to speed up the germination rate and/or get some germination from a small number of hard to germinate seeds, there are published scientific papers that one can turn to for assistance. For example:

"Title: Microbial enhancement of seed germination in Rosa corymbifera 'Laxa'

Authors: Morpeth D.R.(1); Hall A.M.(2)

Authors affiliations: (1): Writtle College, Writtle, Chelmsford, CM1 3RR, UK (2): Environmental Sciences, University of Hertfordshire, College Lane, Hatfield, AL10 9AB, UK

Published in: Seed Science Research, volumn 10, pages 489-494, (2000).

Abstract: "Germination of native tree and shrub species from seed can be unpredictable. Germination of Rosa corymbifera 'Laxa' was 2% under normal commercial conditions. This was obtained in the presence of the natural microflora found on the seeds. The microflora originated on the hips and the seeds become inoculated during extraction. Exclusion of microbes from such pretreatments resulted in no germination. Inoculation of surface sterilized seeds with members of the natural microflora resulted in 3% germination. The addition of GarottaTM, a commercial compost activator, to the commercial pretreatment increased germination to 95%. This high germination percentage was sustained over a 5 year period using seeds from the same stock bushes. Addition of the compost activator resulted in a 20-fold increase of microbial activity in the pretreatment mixture, indicating that enhanced microbial growth resulted in higher and more predictable germination percentages."

This paper has been cited by 25 more recent scientific papers.

Link: http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=696000

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The Rose Hybridizers Forum often has discussions of ways to increase the rose germination rate. The latest "fad" appears to be to use nitrates. The following link is to a search using the keyword nitrate.

Here is a link that might be useful: link for nitrate search above

    Bookmark   January 13, 2013 at 6:11PM
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canadian_rose(zone 3a)

Wow! Sounds like it does make a difference. :)

    Bookmark   January 13, 2013 at 8:19PM
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