Are seedlings of disease proned roses ever healthier?

rjlinvaOctober 4, 2008

I had some success starting some roses from seeds last winter, and I'm collecting hips now to try it again. I'm wondering if it's worth the time and space to try hips from some roses that are not disease resistant. My main objective is to get rose seedlings that are resistant to BS.

I'm considering especially Rugelda's hips, but she succombs terribly to BS in my garden.

Robert

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daveinohio_2007(5)

Self-pollinated seeds from disease prone varieties will produce disease prone seedlings..
If you want bs resistant seedlings, you need to get bs resistant varieties, then cross-pollinate them with other varieties; some of resulting seedlings will be disease resistant. My favorite parents for imparting disease resistance are Carefree Sunshine, Compassion, and some Bucks.
Good luck,
dave

    Bookmark   October 4, 2008 at 11:28AM
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ramblinrosez7b(JerseyShore)

That is a good question Robert. I notice that all my Scentimental seedlings get BS and Scentimental is very prone to BS. Elle is very disease free, and I have one seedling from her that is also very disease free, so I believe this is passed down to the decendents.

    Bookmark   October 4, 2008 at 8:52PM
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rjlinva

My hips are all open-pollinated at this time. In the future, I may try my hand at deliberate crosses.

The good news is that I have deliberately selected roses that are, at least, relatively disease resistant in my climate as I don't spray, so most of my offspring have a good chance of having two disease resistant parents.
Rugelda is a rose that I thought would be more disease resistant than it turned out to be. Rugelda has lots of hips, so I thought I might try to start some seeds.

Dave, I noticed you used the term "self-pollinated." Since my roses are all "open-pollinated" there is a good chance that the pollen came from another (healthier) rose. Does the healthier rose pollen offset the less healthy ova from the female?

Robert

    Bookmark   October 5, 2008 at 6:11AM
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daveinohio_2007(5)

Robert,
Open-pollinated hips are generally self-pollinated, imo, but this is debatable.
A discussion at rosehybridizers.org claimed that bs resistance is dominant, which is very counter-intuitive imo;
in my experience, if you cross a healthy and less-healthy rose, some seedlings will be healthy and some will not be.

    Bookmark   October 5, 2008 at 8:11PM
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rjlinva

Dave,

Thanks for the response.
Robert

    Bookmark   October 6, 2008 at 5:43AM
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daveinohio_2007(5)

Regarding Rugelda:
Surprising that it is not very healthy, as it was ADR 1992.
Some folks at rosehybridizers.org have used it in breeding; you could search their forum to see what has been done with it.
Rugelda is a rugosa (?); many rugosas are NOT self-fertile, so your op hips may be crosses, not selfs, which contradicts what I said in post above. Sorry for confusion!!

    Bookmark   October 6, 2008 at 1:23PM
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rjlinva

Dave,

My Rugelda looks healthy right now...go figure. It's still a young plant and might be just growing up. I will definitely try some hips from her.

BTW...do you know whether Frau Dagmar Hastrup is one of the many rugosas that are NOT self-fertile? How do you find this information?

Robert

    Bookmark   October 7, 2008 at 5:54AM
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daveinohio_2007(5)

Where did you find Rugelda - it is an unusual variety.
Does it look like a typical rugosa? Robusta is a hybrid rug, but it is a very long way from a typical rugosa.
FDH is very near species, so my guess is that itis not self fertile; you should ask about self-infertility on the RHA forum. I have no experience breeding regosas.

    Bookmark   October 7, 2008 at 1:19PM
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daveinohio_2007(5)

The question about rugosa self-infertility has been posted on rha forum.

    Bookmark   October 7, 2008 at 6:55PM
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rjlinva

dave,
I found Rugelda at Sherando Roses, and it looks almost nothing like a rugosa. The leaves are glossy, and the flowers are yellow with orange trim.

Can I ask how you know that FDH is very near species? I have tried to find the parentage of this rose unsuccessfully.

Robert

    Bookmark   October 9, 2008 at 5:46AM
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daveinohio_2007(5)

Paul Geurt's comment on the rha thread: "FDH looks pretty much like a straight R. rugosa clone with little or no other species or variety in it, so it is probably self-infertile."

    Bookmark   October 9, 2008 at 8:44PM
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george_mander(5 to 6)

I have not been posting on this forum for a very long time since my wife has been fighting bone cancer for over 7 years.
On April 7th 2008 she lost her battle with this terrible illness !

THIS IS A VERY GOOD QUESTION !
It's at all possible that two disease proned roses could produce very healthy seedlings.
Here my answer :
After 39 years of hybridizing I come to the conclusion that it is 99 percent luck and only one percent planning.

Some years back I crossed two roses which never ever had mildew in years. I only spray my roses about 3 to 5 times a season.
I had about 500 seedlings and mildew spread like wildfire. After throwing out every mildewed seedling I had only five (5) left.
Read my article on my websites Article Page :
"25 Years of Breeding for Disease Resistance"
Link to my site below.

George Mander

Here is a link that might be useful: Roses of Excellence

    Bookmark   October 10, 2008 at 2:37AM
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daveinohio_2007(5)

Our condolences to you, Mr. Mander.
dave wolfe

    Bookmark   October 10, 2008 at 8:31PM
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ramblinrosez7b(JerseyShore)

Hello Mr. Mander, welcome back to the forum.
I am so sorry for your loss, I extend my heartfelt sympathy to you.

Do you believe that seedlings outgrow the mildew problems, somewhat? The reason I ask is because I have had some seedlings that were full of PM and I was going to toss them but decided to keep them and the next year they did not have near as much as when they did the previous year.
And all of my roses get PM especially in the spring and fall, contributed mostly by the damp weather and low temps at night.

    Bookmark   October 10, 2008 at 9:00PM
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rjlinva

I am sorry to hear about your loss. I appreciate your comments. I kind of suspected this was the case.

Robert

    Bookmark   October 11, 2008 at 6:25AM
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george_mander(5 to 6)

Thank you for your condolences, daveinohio_2007,ramblinrosez7b and rjlinva.

My answer to ramblinrosez7b :
Yes, some seedlings outgrow the mildew problems when moved from indoors to outside.
I had a number of them with slight mildew problems, but when outside these were very resistant.
But those which are loaded with mildew inside that the stems bent, these I throw out.
Good luck to all of you.

George Mander

Here is a link that might be useful: Roses of Excellence

    Bookmark   October 11, 2008 at 8:03PM
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erasmus_gw

Dr. Mander,
I'm also sorry about your loss.

You have a very interesting website. I hope you'll keep posting here..I know a number of people are just learning about growing from seeds, including me.

I wonder why people think op seeds are necessarily self-pollinated. I'd think there would be a good chance a bee had crossed it with something else. I keep hoping that my op seeds might have traits of neighboring roses. I do plan to try to cross some myself next spring. So far my op Blush Noisette seedlings look just like Blush Noisette. Have you found often that a rose with a small bloom like Ballerina can result in a larger flowered rose? Ballerina sure puts out a lot of hips.

Have you frozen pollen for use the following spring?
Thanks,
Linda

    Bookmark   October 26, 2008 at 9:40AM
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trospero(8)

In a word, yes....absolutely. Disease resistance can appear out of nowhere at times, from some of the worst parents. However, the inverse is much more often the case, but thats roses for you!

    Bookmark   October 27, 2008 at 1:09PM
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rjlinva

It certainly seems counterinuitive that disease resistance is less common...from an evolutionary standpoint, anyhow.

Robert

    Bookmark   November 20, 2008 at 3:55AM
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trospero(8)

Robert,
The problem came from using species from a variety of vastly different climates. Many species, although perfectly clean in their native habitat, become VERY diseased in climates they were not designed to grow in. Breeding these various species together breaks down whatever disease resistance one species may have had. Cross Species X from China with Species Y from Montana and you can anticipate all kinds of problems will arise because of the recombination of wildly differing genes. Breeding for disease resistance is, in fact, a big mess.

    Bookmark   November 20, 2008 at 4:01PM
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