Have any of you ran across it yet? Is it similar to a scorpion or 7 pot (looks like it anyway). I saw an article that the producer in S. Carolina is submitting samples for designation as the hottest.
Yeah...about that designation of the hottest...
"Currie paid six hundred and fifty dollars to Guinness to “fast-track” the application, but, for one reason or another, the proceedings stalled. Guinness says that it has never received the proper paperwork from Currie. “We keep asking for documentation and he says he’ll send it, but we still haven’t got anything,” Sara Wilcox, a spokesperson for Guinness, told me."
...and his reply/excuse for this...
“I don’t think they want to give the record to an American,” Currie said. “That’s just my personal opinion.”
Here is a link that might be useful: New Yorker Article Link
I just saw a post by butch taylor congratulating ed on the guiness world record. I think he did it. if so congrats ed
I was just wondering earlier today what the status of the Reaper was. I was beginning to think it had all just blown over. Does anyone have anything legit on it...or even semi legit regarding if it is now the "hottest".
Alot of us grew it this year. It was realeased last fall. I was suprised with the reaper. I bought it from Puckerbutt because of all the hype, not expecting alot. I don't know if its much hotter than the Butch T. It will be .close, but i do like its flavor alot better than the Butch T
John - That's a great picture! I'm not sure if I'd want to bite into one, even if I grew it. Are you making sauce with them, or ???
it is official
Congrats on the World Record Ed. You sure worked hard enough for it.
Sandy that was just taken last night while i was typing that post.. i have a few in my basement.
Kypepperman, thanks for the info, its nice to finally know one way or the other.
I guess I had good timing... Did not know he did it. Might have to buy some seeds. :-)
interesting that it's being called a naga/habanero cross. the pepper looks almost identical to a 7pot primo. I know a fellow who grows both, and I can barely tell them apart. and I find the flavor to be far too similar to that of a 7pot to be a mere coincidence. surely there's something here that I'm missing...
What's with the "sample" watermark all over it? Shouldn't they list the actual name of it? :-/
updated document. guess they are figuring out how to word the official document. .
Carolina Reaper is king!!! But for how long?
Right, But the ebay folks are going to have a field day selling Habanero seeds as Reaper seeds. And buying them from reputable dealers is going to be expensive. I grew a reaper this past year. Glad I kept a few seeds. I suppose I will have to grow one again this year just because.
What is expensive? Pepper Joe has them 10+ for $9.99....
WEll, that is pretty expensive for seeds. A buck a peice. More common varieties are usually about $5 a pack for more than 10. And the most common varieties can be had for a buck a pack in the garden centers.
Still $10 really isn't all that bad considering all the other stuff we spend money on to grow a few peppers. But Puckerbutt and Pepper Joe are going to be raking in the ten dollar bills this winter. As well as the counterfeiters on EBAY.
The idea of giving Pepper Joe any money is kinda sickening to me at this point.
They (Pepper Joe + Penny's Tomatoes) have a long history of abusing people and taking revenge on others who get in the way of them doing business...from stealing other people's pictures to put on their website, to misrepresenting variety types to imply (explicitly lie about) rarity, to actively trying to destroy other people's business.
What they did to Carolyn Male (a regular on the GW Tomato board) by leaving a 1-star review on her book on Amazon because she dared to call them out on mislabeling (and making up/changing names on some of their varieties to make them seem rare) is disgusting...and she wasn't even the ringleader...she was just someone who had a product they could attack. It wasn't even a highly challenged exchange, nor was it aggressive...but it was met with a smear campaign on her. This isn't new territory for "Pepper Joe" when he needs to get revenge or prop up his own marketing.
Ed Currie getting involved with this POS is sad...and some of the at-any-costs marketing + slapping down of critics is occasionally bleeding over into his creation.
I'd give your money to Ed (Puckerbutt) before supporting anything Joe does...even if the 2 are in bed together. Heck, it's better to get the seed in trade since you're already on this board.
Here is a link that might be useful: Pepper Joe being his abrasive and vengeful self
This post was edited by nc-crn on Mon, Nov 18, 13 at 23:29
I happen to have these growing in my basement right now Bruce, and for 10 bucks i would mail you the whole damn pod not just the seeds LOL. For anybody that doesn't know me. Mine came from Puckerbutt. John
I have read the opinions on the PJ's review, no one accepted the reviews.
When I saw the Carolina Reaper it didn't make any impression to me. I am sorry to say "it looks really ugly". However I love to grow it to experience myself. I tried to buy the seeds from Ed's PuckerButt Pepper, $10 for 10 seeds and $28 for shipping :-) I cancelled the transaction.
I'm not trying to tell anyone what to do when it comes to buying seed. I have tap danced around part of my Pepper Joe issues for a while in threads and I just wanted to shed some more light on the type of person this guy can be when he feels you're a threat to him or he simply doesn't like what you're saying.
I used a more public "fight" (though it's more like bullying) that's gone down as an example. I have my own more-personal reasons not to trust or like Pepper Joe's businesses based on my run-ins and personal friends that are breeders, but that doesn't belong on a public forum. I don't like how he treats some others in the business or the hobby...I'm not the only one
The drama of this pepper and everything that's gone along with it has been insane. Blame games and damage control, jump-the-gun marketing claims, getting involved with Pepper Joe/Penny's Tomatoes, Ed threatening to sue someone selling Reapers on Facebook, critic bashing, an ever-changing origin story of the pepper and it's reasons for development, the unusually high amounts of pod and heat variation...etc.
The rush to get this pepper into the marketplace and the marketing hype is almost a bigger story than the pepper, itself.
Also, for what it's worth...me and Dr. Carolyn Male are not friends (nor enemies). We've never met. That said, she's a highly respected heirloom tomato expert and knows her craft. She even has a tomato bred by someone else (actually a selected sport, but that's splitting hairs) named after her out of respect and recognition to all she's done for the community.
We've even butted heads before on GW. Back in 09 I diagnosed a NY-dwelling poster's disease issue with blight on a tomato and Carolyn pointed out that upstate NY doesn't get blight except in extremely rare circumstances. We went back/forth on the issue until the post died out. She was a bit too hung up on "this can't happen here" rather than "it's showing all the classic symptoms and I'm from an area where this is common." Our exchange was frustrating, but it wasn't toxic.
A few weeks later blight was confirmed all over the place up North and not too long after that it was discovered Southern-US nursery suppliers had shipped a crapload of blight-infected plants up North to "Big Box" retailers. Thanks to ideal conditions it was ravaging both home and commercial growers in the area.
That said, even though we got into it...I never came back to rub it in her face, and I sure as hell didn't start a smear campaign on her.
The reason Pepper Joe/Penny's Tomatoes (pretty much the same company umbrella) got into it was that posters on another growing board found out Penny's Tomatoes was stealing other people's photos as well as mislabeling/re-naming tomato varieties with established heritage. Many people called PJ/PT out and Carolyn was caught in the crossfire by confirming some things, especially mislabeled varieties. Her "reward" for this was a smear campaign headed up by Joe.
Btw, on that Amazon review..."Pepper Joe/Penny's Tomatoes" left both of those 1-star reviews, not just the single review under his name. Two accounts were created (and only 1 review on any product on Amazon is tied to both accounts) solely to leave 1-star reviews on Carolyn's book. He also left comments on other people's reviews outside of the 1-star section which are just as or even more disgusting...especially the response to the 2-star review "Di" gave the book.
I'm only scratching the surface here...we're talking about a guy who's threatened (to the point of phone calls and sending letters from lawyers) others for bad-mouthing his business with legitimate gripes in order to attempt to shut them up. In my opinion the guy is slime and the entire seed/plant/horticulture/gardening world would be better off without "Joe and Penny" around.
This post was edited by nc-crn on Tue, Nov 19, 13 at 6:59
Nc-crn, i have already heard more than i need to about him along time ago. People i talk to and respect hate him for various reasons. But its refreshing to see someone go off every once in a while to fill the new people in. And if you need seeds just let me know. Grow them and give them away to as many people as you can. John
I've never had a run in with PJ, but it seems a lot of people here have. There a various people here that I respect that have warned me to stay away. I believe in "live and let live", but I also know better than to "spit into the wind". I guess "buyer beware" says it best.
This was my first year growing and I didn’t know about the controversy surrounding pepper Joe. I ended up purchasing some seeds from him including the Carolina reapers. I must say I had excellent germination rates, everything grew true, and customer service was good. I had zero complaints but like you guys say I didn’t cross him. So who knows how he would have reacted if I did cross him. Regardless of how you feel about pepper Joe don’t let that ruin the Carolina reaper for you. It s beautiful pepper, has excellent flavor, and officially the hottest in the world by a relatively large margin. Ever since pepper Joe became affiliated with the Carolina reaper people have been bashing this pepper, challenging its heat level ect and its is a shame. It is just a pepper enjoy it! Ill say it again because I know it is really bothering the naysayers. The CAROLINA REAPER IS THE HOTTEST PEPPER IN THE WORLD!!!.
Found some nice pictures :-) it looks like brain strain with a tail. Ed should have some nice pictures on his site. Only the picture I found on his site is the one uploaded here.
I usually buy seeds from the USA, $10 is maximum including shipping. What is wrong with PuckerButt, the shipping charge is $28 and $10 for 10 seeds. Just I mentioned here my experience, I am not asking for free seeds :-)
Before I said it looks ugly, I meant to compare with other super hot chilli varieties. Most of the CR I have seen are small and the shape are also not so nice. May be I haven't seen nice CR. Still I'd like to see some nice pods and plants.
I am really enjoy super hot chillies fresh, this season 2/3 times I was badly hurt by scorpion, it was my fault :-)
I do not think CR could be popular like Ghost, just my opinion. I will try to grow it still keep looking for some reliable seeds sources. When I have my own experiences my opinion could be changed.
Scott, i might have missed something, but i don't recall too many people putting the pepper down. Just alot of people jerked off that there was no proof put out to back up all the claims. I like the reaper, its a great pepper and i am glad we are finally getting some proof. But to me if it had fallen short of the record, i wouldn't care. I bought from Ed out of curiosity, and cause it was new, not because of the claims. I had great service, great germination, hardly any variation and am very pleased with it
Yep, it seems like a good pepper. I tasted a tiny piece of one and there is definitely a "taste" there but it only lasts for .5 seconds before the burn takes over. I guess it is hot, but anything over a Habanero is too hot to measure by me.
If nothing else, it is a great producer. This was taken October 2nd. "what did I do with all those?" I gave a couple away and the rest are in the compost pile. Just too hot for me.
That's a beauty of a plant, Bruce.
Very nice, Bruce.
Scorpion john I also chose to grow the CR because it was a unique super hot that I have never heard of before. The world record had nothing to do with my decision. Excited to get my package I started searching the web about it and found what I perceived as dislike and at the very least resistance. I read " it's not that hot or they wouldn't sell it before the world record was established" and "it's not a stable strain" and " it's just a 7 pot they are trying to scam you" and even " they are trying to sell it for a outrageous amount of money before it fails the test" and "I have tried it and It's not hot". I could not understand why people wanted this pepper to fail so badly? Why did people dislike this pepper? Then I found it was pepper joe that people didn't like and it was pepper joe that people wanted to fail and the pepper was not being embraced by the pepper lover community be use of it. I know there are many like you and I who do not care either way and like the pepper for what it is. I just wish everyone would embrace this pepper like they did the butch t or ghost. I also agree with you grow it and give as many seeds away to as many people as you can( I'd be happy to send you seeds). All I am saying is it is a wonderful plant and if you don't like pepper joe then just get your seeds from somewhere else but don't write off the pepper entirely.
"Then I found it was pepper joe that people didn't like and it was pepper joe that people wanted to fail and the pepper was not being embraced by the pepper lover community be use of it."
Well, it's things beyond that, too.
Some people have an issue with Ed pushing this pepper to market so early. People are getting smooth pods, wrinkled pods, longer pods, variations on heat...someone even got yellow pods.
Plus the whole "I'll sue you" Facebook thing with someone looking to sell seeds from Reapers.
...and the ever-changing origin story of the pepper along with some real questions about how good of a breeder Ed actually is (especially after his "never seen a pepper with a tail before" comment talking about the uniqueness of his pepper and the comment that this pepper came about while he was trying to breed a sweet pepper).
Btw...I have no issue with Ed. Most of the people I do know that have an issue with him are more concerned about what he's doing now with some of his hybridization projects and the fear that he'll push future unstable yet uniquely named peppers out into the market...this is speculation based fear, though it seems to be lining up that way...and it's rather minor in scope. No one I know has been personally wronged by him.
This post was edited by nc-crn on Wed, Nov 20, 13 at 17:31
Bruce, i can't beleive you trashed them. I would have paid for a flat rate box and gave you a couple bucks for your time. Mine are loaded like that now. I will pick about 80 or so ripe ones this weekend off the 2 Reapers i brought in. John
Well, I saved a few seeds anyway.
John, I echo your sentiments! I l would love to have those growing my pepper patch this spring!
For what it is worth and my 2 cents...
I would not buy, recommend or even consider anything from Pepper Joe. Main reason.....
Here is a picture of a Reaper that I grew from seeds purchased from him as a Reaper. Enough said.....
i hope you told him about it.
I sure did, and all he basically said was I am a large seed provider and S*it happens.....
Bill, wow something doesn' look right there buddy. Did you get any that were true? I bought from Ed and 19 of 21 seeds sprouted and grew true. If you need seeds or wanna try some pods let me know. And check out my trade list also and see what you want. I haven't forgot i told you i would send you the bhut cross. John
I do have some true pods from a couple other plants as I ended up buying seeds from Ed as well and I had 7 of 10 germinate. I would love to trade some seeds with you. I will post my list in a few days and again, thanks for the seeds last year. I had great success with all your seeds except the Douglah and I will MAKE them grow this year :)
Thats a good one. It seems sh*t happens alot more when money is involved. This past year of +80 types i think i bought 7 and half of my White Bhuts were screwed up and all my Morugas from bought seed were wrong. Out of the rest, OP seed, mostly traded here. I had 2 crosses i can't id. And they are both great, the chocolate x, might be my new favorite. I hope it grows the same next year. Anyway, 7 types bought = 30 screwed up plants, while 75 types OP = 2 crosses/5 plants. I will take my chances here, with you guys anyday. John
I have had only a couple plants not grow true from seed and i have grown many of those from open pollinated seed. A lot of those seeds were from other list members.
Bill, did you end up with any Douglahs? I can't understand that. Everyone else seems to have had great germination, including me. Like i told you, i didn't store seperate packs, they were all in one big pack. I can't Imagine how you had trouble. As far as that goes, i'd say the Douglah is easier than some of the other superhots you grew this year. I don't know how to explain it. So i will tell you the same as Joe sh*t happens LOL. At least mine were free and i did offer to send you more. Hopefully you will have better luck this spring. If you turn out to be a non-douglah growing S.O.B. again i will ship you a plant. How's that for service? Email me what you want tonight and they will go out tommorow buddy. I have to stop by the post office anyway. John
Bill I'm sorry you got ripped off. Two of my plants out of ten did not have the typical shape but flavor and heat were consistent. Oddly enough Both Of these were in larger Pots. The 8 in smaller pots had typical reaper shape. If you email me your address id be happy to send you some seeds. I guess I got lucky dealing with him. I also found that there is no reason to buy seeds when there are many people on here willing to send you seeds. Scorpion john was extremely generous with me and I just try to pay it forward. Another way to look at it us this pepper is so early in breading that you could pick what characteristic you like , save the seeds from those pods and in twenty years have your very own pepper .
Thanks!!! I do not understand it either. Out of the original Douglah seeds you sent I had 8 of 10 germinate however they never made it past the 4 leaf stage. Has to be on me :) but everything else I grew from your seeds where fantastic. I am still having to pick pods tonight from those plants. Thank you for the offer for the seeds, but do you mind waiting on sending me seeds until after Thanksgiving? Reason I ask is I am going to California this Sunday for 10 days and I would hate for the seeds you send to sit in the mail box with the cold spell we are suppose to get this weekend. Anything in particular you are looking for that I may have (and which you probably already have :) )?
Bill, I sent you an email. Check it.
Bill, you didn't tell me u killed them.. i thought they weren't even sprouting.. and couldn't figure out why. I can send them anytime you want just let me know, and Bruce if there is anything on my list you want email me
Scott, i just know the stuff i heard here and from friends i didn't search for any info. Stuff like that was said here too. But that was before it was released. I took it as people being p*ssed cause of all the hype and claims without proof. The whole thing was handled very poorly, but i would expect nothing less from a man that put his own auto-biography in his catalogs, complete with pictures of him "munching jalopenos". I am with you, i like it, and people have seed now. So its free on this site anyway
Nc-rnc, you commented about rough and smooth pods. Mine were rough earlier in the season and they are still far from smooth but not nearly as rough as they were during the hotter weather. Same plants but a noticable difference.
Wow... they are much smaller than expected..
Ok john. Yeah they are smaller pods. I wonder what affect the size has on testing?
Kclost - don't worry about the size, unless you're a chick LOL. Just a little smaller than my Butch T's. Altough this year i have gotten some monster Butch T's, Congo's and Yellow Brain. Not sure whats up with that. I'm talking like nearly twice the norm.
Scott - i have about 80 ripe ones to pick and do something with this weekend. I will sample small peices of as many as i can stand and see if i can tell any difference. I doubt it would be noticable to the tast unless it was a huge difference one way or the other.
Caelien, email me your address and i will check on postage. I can't remember where you are from.
John good luck with that one lol. But when I talked about size vs heat I was referring more to the Guinness scovile testing. From what I understand, the scoville scale is based on how many drops of water it takes to remove all heat. Does anyone know how they get their sample for testing ? Is is heat level per pod? Or do they grind up a certain number of pods and take a specific amount from that? Or do they grind up a specific volume of pods and take a specific amount from that? You get where I'm going here? If it is a per pod rating, then it would stand to reason that a volleyball sized hab could break all records, bigger pod more oil higher rating. On the other hand, if they get their sample from a standard volume of peppers, then in stands to reason that the smaller the pepper the more pods you could fit in that volume thus increasing the heat scale. In this way the scoville scale could be manipulated without changing the actual perceived heat of the pepper. Or maybe I'm missing something all together ?
scorpion_john, thank you for your generosity. When I saw your seeds packets for distribution, I was surprised and realized your are a true chili enthusiast. I knew it is easy to remove seeds from the pods but it is very time consuming work. I hate to do it :-).
Thank you again for your contribution in this forum.
I believe this pepper is as stable as they come. However, as with any of these things, there will be some that do not produce true to type. Shouldn't happen often with these but it does happen. I also don't understand all the haters out there concerning this chili. People on another pepper forum continuously bash the qualities of this pepper. I for one believe they are as hot as advertised. Enough co-workers have been hurt by this pepper to back that up!
What I've learned from Ed himself, and others, is that if your peppers do not look like the ones in Scorpion_john's picture above, then your peppers are not reapers. I question the peppers that esox07 posted in his pics. Many have a scorpion appearance while some are elongated. But most appear smooth instead of the mottled, leprous look of a true reaper. These look exactly like one of my plants that came from reaper seed right from Puckerbutt.
They are some new sport that has resulted. Sometimes these can become cool new peppers. Even pods on the same plant can be different...but on that particular plant, all of those pods will continue as such.
ohiojay: "I question the peppers that esox07 posted in his pics."
The seed for that plant was from Pepper Joe. Ed's partner with the Reaper.
Here is a photo of some ripe pods:
Hey Bruce....nice looking pods though for sure. Tough call. Many of them still have a very smooth appearance. There are a few that look to have the more knotty look.
I got 11 seeds from Puckerbutt two years ago and germinated them all. All but one looked to be true reapers. I've included a pic of the pods on this plant. Most actually come off looking more similar to a ghost than even a scorpion.
All of the pods are smooth with none of the knots, pimples, spikes of a true reaper.
Here's a good video on the reaper concerning the oddities.
There's more-than-expected off-type pods coming from people showing up on the internet.
One side claims it's within a statistical safe area.
One side wonders why so many people who happen to have an internet connection strongly skew this safe area because they have pictures and stories statistically pointing to it being outside of that safe area.
There was a discussion about the math and assumptions made in that "The Truth About The Carolina Reaper" video in past thread here (and other boards). Beyond that, what they're seeing in the field in the video isn't matching up with the internet reports from others about off-type pods for some reason...unless a very random chance occurrence of people with internet connections in pepper communities happen to have gotten an unreal amount of the off-type seed.
The fact a video like this even had to be made was/is weird.
A lot of angst comes from the carefully selected peppers sent to reviewers and picture examples that have amazing consistency of perfect types compared to what people are actually seeing when they grow it out...along with continued denial by the people pushing it that there's nothing wrong with it's stability when it looks like that's not the case (and this is before we get into heat variation issues even if it's still a very hot pepper). It's a compounding issue when the people pushing it keep saying "there's nothing wrong, this is normal variation and you got a weird one...it happens" and there's way too many people being told this.
This post was edited by nc-crn on Sat, Nov 23, 13 at 14:11
Hmmm, good points. If there is a significant amount of non-pure seed out there, then that could essentially doom this pepper IMO. People will continue to grow the seed out thinking it is pure and continue to spread impure seed around which will eventually dilute the strain so bad that it will be a 50/50 shot in the dark that a given seed will grow true. But then maybe it is just an inherent variation in pod texture and look and doesn't really affect taste or heat. I know I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between 1 million and 1.5 million scoville. Maybe some can. I guess time will tell how this pepper strain figures into pepper growing down the road.
The marketing and hype around this pepper won't stop it from going all over the place. It's gonna sell and trade. We're a small minority on the internet that care about peppers this much compared to people who simply want to grow hot peppers or get that pepper that's in the news.
The biggest danger myself and some of my breeder friends see in this is a few years from now we're going to see "Carolina Reaper" seed out in the wild that grows out so many different types of pods with so many different taste/heat characteristics that the whole thing will be confusing.
One thing that's piqued the interest/concern of some of my peers/friends is how many new hybrid experiments (some already with new "trade" names being given to them) that are being produced by Ed and shipped out to people and reviewers even if they're not being marketed yet. It's especially alarming given some of his comments in the press about how he breeds peppers and what he expects from them (such as how he developed the Reaper trying to breed a sweet pepper (!!!) or how he knew the Reaper was special because when it grew he had never seen a pepper with a stinger/tail before (!!!))...this is kinda alarming talk to be coming from a breeder.
It's okay to have a Pepper1 x Pepper2 hybrid...it's another thing to give it a unique name and/or push it out in the wild before it's stable. Hopefully, whatever is pushed out next (if anything) will be a lot more stable and predictable.
This post was edited by nc-crn on Sat, Nov 23, 13 at 14:37
Scott - i don't remember exactly how. But it has to be the same volume or larger peppers would have an unfair advantage.
Ohiojay - how can you say how stable you think this pepper is, praise mine, question Bruces, then post pics of your own that, in my opinion, look like they have alot more variation than Bruces? Pardon my expression but, if Bruce went to the pimp, and i went straight to the ho, the outcome should still be the same. Then throw Bills in there, what the hell is that? It appears that i have gotten lucky this time. I just picked 73 and they all look like the ones in this photo. Where are you on this Scott? I know you grew a bunch lets see some pics of what you got. I am guessing alot of people grew these this year. Lets see the pics, good and bad, compare and see how stable it is. You can see the difference in shape, so is there differences in taste and heat between them also? I would guess most likely. NC - i agree with you, released too early and lots of bad marketing choices. Bruce - if you think mine are from a better strain of seed than yours, i can send you as many as you need buddy. And Scott, don't get on my sh*t again, cause i'm not putting it down, i like it alot but i still say my Trinidad Douglahs smoke it. LOL Nothing hurts me as bad as the Douglah. Lets see some more pics. John
:-) do not be serious.
Is this CR? It is hotter than Scorpion Moruga Blend I have grown.
If you would have read my post correctly...I said all but one were true reapers and that I had included a pic of THAT ONE plant. As stable as any plant can be. There will always be variations for one reason or another. All of this has just been my opinion gathered from various sources as well as my own experience. I'm no expert. Far from it. I just enjoy growing them.
Caelian...again...just my opinion here and you can take it as such. Some of the pods in the first pic look like they have some of the characteristic features of the reaper...while others do not.
There is a lot of science behind why this happens and I don't completely understand it all...genotypes, phenotypes, mutations, etc. The following was was explained to me by someone much smarter than myself at this.
A different phenotype means it is a different pepper visually. The seeds got mixed in by mistake or, the cross was not yet stable and there are other seed genotypes expressing their own appearance or phenotype along with the more typical Carolina Reaper. If you have one that looks different, it is different, it is not the CR.
if you set up a plot in the middle of the desert, with no other plants nearby, the genes are a fixed set and the plants will all have an assorted set from this original start point. Like shuffling a deck of cards; no matter how many times you shuffle it, it is the same cards or traits.
In the first years, as the dominance and recessive traits re-assort themselves, the plants all still only have the original genes; nothing new could come in so only mutations can change this set. From this, if one suddenly appears different and no new genes got in, it would have to be a mutation or the expression of a "new" phenotype" that arose when two or more genes from the original set lined up in a way that changed the normal appearance. This would mean the seeds collectively have not settled out with a single look, that there are one or more genes controlling appearance that can from time to time line up in a seed and change the look.
But if it looks different, one can not assume that the things you do not see are not also different. A phenotype is only what you see, it hints at what is inside but it does so only by the balancing act of visual expression of dominance and recessiveness. Killer bees are identical in most ways to regular honey bees but over a short time, i.e. a limited number of generations, the dominant traits suppress the expression of the more recessive traits and the killer bees become progressively more aggressive as this change takes place. But the phenotype shows none of this. All the action is at the genotype level and the more docile bees are getting culled from the gene pool. In a field with no new pepper genes coming in, it is just the original deck of cards.
So is it stable or not? Did someone mix up some seed? Lots of questions but hundreds of different answers for each.
Ohiojay, thanks, you explained very well. Similar thing happened to me too. Out of 10 seeds (Snow White) one is completely different plant I got.
My plant is not CR it is crossed C.chinense, it has multiple different pod shapes.
Scorpion_John: I sent you an email regarding this thread.
Phenotypes are not the easiest part of the breeding process to stabilize, but it's one of the most important.
Coke doesn't use 5 different fonts for spelling Coca-Cola because it's how you ID the brand.
When there's wide variation in phenotype expression there's usually a bit of genetic variation in the genotype, too.
I've bred a lot of raspberries/blackberries, squash, corn, soy, and peppers. In many of these cases, the phenotypes stabilized before the genotype characteristics. In some cases, especially with the squash and peppers, the phenotypes were a bit more difficult to stabilize. As long as there's variation beyond a point that is influenced by small or random chance, environmental, or growth/nutrient methods influence the plant still needs work for the commercial marketplace.
I've got a couple of peppers, one specifically, that I could release into the wild, but the phenotypes are still so variable that I am not comfortable with the overall genetic package even if the flavor characteristics are mostly stable over the short generations they've been bred and selected. I've had too many breeding "surprises" pop up in both genotype and phenotype characteristics after getting stable plants for 2-3 generations to take it for granted or rush it. Unless you're looking at the plant on genetic expression levels, there's more than a few surprises that can blindside you and when drift starts it can spin out of control in the wild when people start saving/spreading seed.
The last thing I want is to have people growing 2-3-4+ different types of a plant that I've bred and named. Then again, I'm not into the pepper thing for the money and I have no incentive to engage the marketplace in a competitive manner. ...and the other plants I work on (or worked on in the past) must be near-100% in genotype and phenotype because they're for commercial applications where variation beyond a very small amount is unacceptable.
Politics and marketing follies aside for the Reaper, a big issue with complaints has come from all the reviewers and seed sellers all getting the exact same ideal looking pods and people growing it out seeing way more variation than they expected (commonly...long pods, pods without stingers, teardrop/tapered pods vs round pods, pods with sunken bottom "reverse" stingers, smooth vs wrinkled pods...I'll leave the "yellow pod" guy out of this because I've only heard of 1 case of this). More than anything regarding the politics and marketing of the Reaper...especially for those that don't care about such things...this is where many complaints are coming from. I'm hearing/reading a lot more about this than any of the "politics" stuff.
This is before getting into comments about how (though very hot) the heat compares to others out there which are ranging from "this is the hottest" to "well, it's in my top 5." There's also been a few comments on the lack of flavor, though most people report a nice fruity flavor. These aspects are a bit subjective, anyway.
It is getting near universal praise for it's above average pod production, though...no matter the variation in other areas, this seems to be intact across many growers.
This post was edited by nc-crn on Sun, Nov 24, 13 at 11:41
Jay - sorry, i was on my phone and read it wrong. I am glad to hear thats your worst plant. All of mine 2 packs from puckerbutt, 21 seeds, 19 germinated and grew just like the advertised pics i have seen. I realize its going to have variations, but the difference between Caelien's and mine seem huge to me anyway. Either way, its a good pepper and i like it. Post a couple good pics Jay
No worries dude! It's all good.
As for the heat? Myself and coworkers have all been torn up by this pepper. My last Buffalo chicken damn near killed several of us. First time I've ever had any left to bring home. Pretty stupid really. Everyone agrees that it's a fine tasting pepper...when used with some restraint. I'll never be one of those characters who eat an entire chili for the sake of eating one. Can't do it. Won't do it.
Here are some pics of the plants. They're all tucked away in the greenhouse for the winter but still producing like mad. I'm getting some really huge reapers...as well as some really tiny ones which are probably a result of the greenhouse environment. The plants have also been pruned way way back.
The first two pics are of the "not so reaper" plant and pod. Plant on the left in that first pic is a Butch T. May not be a reaper but it certainly puts out a ton of pods...and they are blistering hot too. Just not as cool looking.
Here's my reaper...again...cut way back for winter.
Picked all the current red ones to bring in to work tomorrow. Notice the really tiny ones? I didn't get anything like these over the summer.
Now here are some beasts. I used like 8 the size of these for my last batch of Buffalo chicken. Still makes me cramp up to think about it.
Gonna have to refinish that table as those peppers are likely to have blistered the finish.
I love this thread... awesome pics btw... I have my seeds on order from pepperjoe, we will see what happens...
John, I wasn’t trying to get on anyone’s $h!t lol. I was just curious and now I know. I to had pod variation but it was mostly noticeable from plant to plant, not on the same plant. I am wondering how much is nature and how much is nurture? The two plants I had in the largest pots showed the most variation (long pods, inverted stingers ect.). Also, the phenotype and genotype conversation is interesting. If the CR consistently has the same genotype but expresses different genes does that make it an unstable pepper? My other thought is that this is a new pepper of course there is going to be genetic variation. A typical hab has been around for 8,000 plus years all the genetic variation has been bred out of it. I bet you 8,000 years ago all habs didn’t look the same and since we don’t have 8,000 years to wait on the reaper I guess they have to establish a realistic number of generations to deem it stable. It would take a very long time to choose characteristic in a hab and try to grow it out to those specifications, but a reaper is so early in its evolution it wouldn’t take long at all. (i.e if you like long pods, pick all the long pods, save the seeds, rinse, lather, repeat). My next thought is the reaper is an irregularly shaped pepper to begin with. It is lumpy, bumpy, and pointy so how much of an inconsistency does it take for you to deem it a variation? It is obvious the long pods are variations, but what about a fatter pod, or a pod that has a bump here instead of there, and has a longer or shorter stinger. Does this make the pepper unstable? I am asking these question because I really don’t know and I would like everyone’s thoughts, I am not trying to be an @$$. All my peppers had the same very distinct and unique flavor, no matter what they looked like. They were also all extremely hot and that is about all I can say about heat because there is no way I can tell the difference between 1.4 mill and 1.5 mil units. I guess I was happy being a newbie because they were all scotching hot, had great consistent flavor, and I got a lot of them. I didn’t really care about the shapes. I will post pictures later.
Variation- I was told by someone that sells these that this is the perfect pod shape. Is there a standard description like a dog breed ? We all have in our own minds what these are supposed to look like but does anyone know for sure?
Pod variation on same plant- all of our peppers do look different guys and gals lol
Scotty, i know, just giving u a hard time. I like to joke around. Personnaly, i don't really care what it looks like but it would be nice to be able to recognize it. The ones Caelien posted, i wouldn't have id'ed that as a reaper. Hopefully it will settle down and get more consistant in looks, but i have my doubts cause you know people are saving seed from the inferior pods also instead of picking the best. With the net, excluding this place, the bad are gonna spread just as fast as the good.
Jay- those look alot better. Those are some massive trunks on those plants. Those are gonna be monsters next year. Where are you at in ohio?
Yep, there was a lot of pod variation on my plant as well. Much more than other varieties of peppers that I have grown in the past. I don't know if that is just a characteristic of the strain itself or if it is due to an unstable strain. I am thinking that is just the characteristics of the strain and significant pod variations can be expected on the same plant. One thing I have noticed on the photos of my Reaper plant is that it seems pods of one variation seem to grow in the same area of the plant. I have several pods that look like ghost peppers, others that are more classic Reapers, and them some that are kind of Habanero shaped all on the same plant but it seems they tend to be in groups on the plant. I also noticed that some of the pods are bumpy, some are smooth, some are shiny and some are not.
Here is some pictures of pods all from the same Reaper plant.
Columbus, Oh. The reaper spread nearly 6' wide during the summer. I like the shape better now.
Bruce...most of those, to me, sure resemble reaper. Really gnarly looking. Then there are those few that look more ghost-like. Could very well just be oddities of the plant. Hell, who knows for sure?
I am wondering if you save seeds from the “inferior” pods (say a long one) will it reproduce a plant with all long pods? If it is a true phenotype variation and the genotypes stay consistent, then theoretically seeds from a long pod should be able to produce a plant that does not have long pods? If that is the case then in my eyes it would be a stable pepper with different shapes and sizes. Most of us have only seen one generation with this plant I am wondering what will happen next generation or in 5 generations, from all the pods inferior ones and typical one ( whatever that is) alike? Still unable to find a description of what it is “supposed” to look like though. i.e ½ inch stinger, bumpy, shiny, smooth, three lobed four lobed ect. No one knows. Let’s say the breed standard is ½ inch stinger pointing straight down. Then anything other than that would be a variation correct? I noticed others having smooth pods, and super fat stingers. I had neither of these on any of my pods. Everything was very bumpy and shiny and the “good” pods had a look to them as if they were melting with a witch’s nose stinger, not a perfect 7 pot or butch t shape. Looking at images of other peppers on the internet I noticed variation of many other strands like the butch T and 7 pot but even I must admit the CR has more variation that I would like to see. The shape I don’t care about so much, it’s a irregular shaped pepper but the bumpy vs smooth pods and shiny for dull pods worry me.
"I am wondering if you save seeds from the “inferior” pods (say a long one) will it reproduce a plant with all long pods?"
Most all of the time this doesn't happen if there's mixed pods on a plant. The variation is still in it's genetics on whole, not specific to the pod it's selected from off of the plant.
nc-crn: Glad you clarified that because whenever people start using words like genotype and phenotype, my head starts spinning.
Then assuming guinness used all pod shapes in its testing I dont see what the problem is.
The genotype generates the phenotype from the megasporocyte which turns into the oocyte.
Sorry folks, just had to see if esox's head really would spin around. Bet he got up to at least 10 rpm on this.
Genetics can get very complicated and there are rules upon rules with exceptions to the rules. But for simplicity sake, a genotype is all the genes you inherited from your parents. A phenotype is the genes that you express (not necessarily what you see with your eyes but the characteristics that you express). For example, if your mother has blonde hair and your father has brown hair and you end up with brown hair then you have both blond and brown hair genes (genotype) but you are expressing the brown hair gene (brown hair phenotype). It does not have to be visual characteristics same thing goes for diseases and everything else. Now if you have a child with someone who also has brown hair but has a blond hair parent, it is possible that you will pass on the blond hair trait and have a blonde hair child even though you both have brown hair. That child would have a blonde hair phenotype. Like I said this is not a perfect example because there are rules upon rules and exceptions to the rules but it should help understand the difference between phenotype and genotype. Some genes are sex linked, some genes tend to be expressed together(blond hair blue eyes), it depends where the gene is on what chromosome, if the father has the gene, if the mother has the gene, and what sex the offspring is, some genes are dominant, some genes are recessive ect ect ect.
Genotype- all the genes from father and mother that got passed on to you and in turn can be passed on to your children
Phenotype- what characteristics or genes you express ( hair color , eye color, fast, slow, skinny fat, smart, dumb, ect)
haha good one fusion
Yah, Fusion, great. I will be sitting here until 4 am trying to "wrap" my head around that one. Thanks!
I feel like it needs to be brought up again. according to the first certificate, it was being called a naga/habanero cross. but it looks like a 7pot primo. in fact it looks a lot like a 7pot primo. and tastes extremely similar as well (in my own limited experience).
am I the only one who notices this similarity?
Fusion - he wasn't kidding on the 4am thing. He emailed me about 2, still deep in thought.
Scott - i believe Ohiojays and mine are what they are supposed to look like. I thought the seed pack from puckerbutt had a pic on it. But i dug it out of last years stuff last night and i was wrong. No pic
Judo - from the pics i have seen, i can say it looks like the Primo, Naga, Bhut, Scorpion, Dorset, and many others. I beleive the "Primo look" is what its supposed to look like.
it has elements of all those peppers, yes. it's bumpy like a bhut, and has a tail like a scorpion. but it looks EXACTLY like a primo. very bumpy, with a very narrow tail. and the taste similarity is what does it for me.
brain strains and morugas look very extremely similar (enough to have started multiple threads about them being the same pepper), but their taste is similar, but different enough to tell they're not merely the same pepper renamed.
the primo and the reaper taste exactly alike. and look exactly alike. the only difference is the primo has slightly more uniformity in pod shape.
.Judo... i was joking about all the different pods we are seeing. The Primo is one i haven't got around to growing yet. Gonna have to look for it for next year