Anyone grow Salvia macelaria ?

hybridsageAugust 16, 2008

I cannot find anyone growing this plant besides California.

any Ideas?

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rich_dufresne(z7 NC)

True Salvia macellaria is blue or hyacinth violet colored in flower. The plant going around as that has been shown to be a form of x jamensis with yellow-orange flowers. What flower color are you looking for?

    Bookmark   August 16, 2008 at 11:50PM
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This plant is from the Jame area in Mexico. It is the first
Salvia you come across on the road up the mountain.Then comes S. regla "Jame" and the Red flowered Bush form Lonicera are growing together.Then after that is the apple orchards were all the Jamensis hybrids and Tagetes lucida are located.The flower is a Pastel Orange in color, leaves are very shiney 1/2"long and 1/4" to 3/8"wide unlike the greggii's in the hybridized area.Woody at the Base very shrubby. Size is 2'-2.5' tall. Smell is more like camphor not as strong as darcyi but similar.Bracts are larger than S.greggii and green in color they also form a ball(like puberula)before the flower spike elongates.
The picture in Betsy's book "A Book of Salvias/Sages for every garden". It is plate 52 ripe peach cultivar.
The plant your describing sounds like what I was taught as S.coahuilensis (Lycoides x greggii hybrids).Which going by Eplings description is S. macelaria but in Neovo leon not
coahuila. I really do need to get the royal horticulture societies color chart to help with this.Sorry about the length. Art

    Bookmark   August 17, 2008 at 11:44PM
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In Betsy's 2nd book, macellaria is omitted....BUT...on page 138, she has used the same picture and called it Salvia greggii 'Desert Pastel'. In Christian's book, he describes macellaria, and mentions the confusion with lycioides and coahuilensis.

    Bookmark   August 18, 2008 at 4:41AM
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rich_dufresne(z7 NC)

Art, the route into the Coahuilan uplands is exactly the same as the one I took with Carl & John of Yucca-Do. The orange-yellow Salvias growing along the roadside in the grass were x jamensis forms. I did not see any low-growing shrubs with purple or blue flowers, to go by Epling's description for macellaria. I have a slide of that one, and of the twin regla trees higher up with an apple orchard in the background. Those trees are the source of Plant Delights and my S. regla Jame.

    Bookmark   August 18, 2008 at 9:49AM
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Thanks Robin ,I will need to get Christian's Book. We had a grower down in San Antonio that went to the same population with Lynn Lowery and called their selection
a Salvia greggii also. It looked so different from the Texas forms that where in the trade at that time. I put
this orange form in many gardens it died everytime. Where
white,red,pink forms collected here in Texas thrived.Then
Betsy's book came out and made me Question my training.
Maybe the genenome project may be to shed some light on
some of the relationships these plants have with each other.
Then how does one determine what is a pure species and what is of hybrid origin's this has the potential for changing things as we know them.
Rich;What year did John and Carl take you to that population? John and Carl took me there in July 1989 also we had a botanist along from the Robert Vines institute,it was that trip that Carl found "Sierra San Antonio".These
plants were at 6000'in elevation where the hybrids where at

  1. The plants were by themselves no color variation
    at all.I stand corrected John said we were in Neovo leon
    but he map says Coahuila.So I am sure it is the same population we are talking about do you go with James Compton?I loved the red's in that population the bracts were so black. Back to topic ..I may have to look at what is
    S.greggii Lowery's Peach(lynn never mentioned his peach,besides that lynn way humble to toot his own horn) Can you please send me a digital pic of Lowery's peach,Orange Yucca do and Peach La Encantada,see if they are the plant I am looking for then.I have go back to the original question does anyone grow Salvia macelaria rich I know you grow coahuilensis the forms
    that I grew years ago were from Manuel Flores. The picture
    you have looks like Pat McNeals Hybrid collected in Neovo leon and goes by that name. Well getting a Salvia Society
    together will be a good thing.Keep us posted on the next summit I really need to attend!!
    Bookmark   August 18, 2008 at 2:18PM
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This is such a complicated issue, I doubt whether it will ever be resolved. Now there are 100s if not 1000s of cultivars from greggii/x jamensis/microphylla....a few are worthless, but many are superb.

In the UK, we have lycioides, coahuliensis, greggii x lycioides, and others....I really don't know, but I doubt if any of these are true species. They all look very similar. Only time that I was aware of a nursery in the East of the UK that was selling was just a rather ordinary red greggii.

All Salvia lovers.....assuming that they are not only interested in species....may sow seeds of greggii/x J./microphylla just to see what results. It is great fun, and occasionally the results are wonderful....e.g. 'Peter Vidgeon', 'Fuego', and a new brilliant yellow form, 'Clave de Sol'.

Kind regards to all,


    Bookmark   August 18, 2008 at 3:18PM
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Do you know where thr lycioides was collected?
The only form I am aware of is one dark blue form from
the Guadalupe mountains collected by Pat McNeal. Did you find out anything on SL411?Looks like Rich has had his hands full dealing with the Salvia divinorum crowd.

    Bookmark   August 18, 2008 at 10:01PM
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I got lycioides about 12 years ago from Christine Yeo, but I have no idea from where she acquired it. I don't grow it any more, as it was not very showy, and I don't have space for everything.

SL411...still waiting for a name!

    Bookmark   August 19, 2008 at 12:36PM
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A right pot-pourri!

For several years the Royal Botanic Gardens at Kew has had a Salvia with the leaves almost identical to microphylla Pink Blush but with a flower colour quite close to x jamensis Raspberry Royale. This plant was labelled Salvia macellaria.

After several years in one place it was moved to a second home for a couple of years or so but last year I saw it had disappeared to be replaced with a plant of the gorgeous Salvia Silas Dyson.

This year I re-discovered the label Salvia macellaria set against a plant in the Order Beds. However, the plant was not the same as that previously so labelled - this new plant having a much brighter red flower!

I have three plants purchased as Ss. lycoides, muelleri and coahuilensis. All seem identical to my amateur eye and I reckon all my purchases are one and the same and, according to Christian's book, should be called Salvia macellaria.

It is interesting to note that Christian records that Epling considered S. macellaria to actually be a natural hybrid - possibly between greggii and chamedryoides - just to add to the confusion!

Salvia lyciodes is in fact a pale blue flowered plant.

I got my S. lycioides from Christine Yeo and in her second book she shows Salvia lyciodes as the plant I purchased from her. She states that it is sometimes sold incorrectly as S. moelleri (muelleri?). She also states that it also has been introduced from the USA as S. coahuilensis.

Betsy Clebsch seems to have the right description (blue flowers) for S. lycoides in her book but in the picture the flower colour looks more like my S. lycioides - i.e. which Christian tells us should be S. macellaria!

To compound the mess, Christian writes that S. muelleri is incorrectly used for a hybrid of S. microphylla and 'unknown' and that S. serpyllifolia is also incorrectly used for this hybrid! Christian states that S. muelleri and S. coahuilensis are correct names for other plants.


    Bookmark   August 19, 2008 at 2:31PM
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Let's revert to Marigolds and Petunias!!!

Should not have said I have recently grown a wild form of Petunia from Argentina, somewhat untidy, lilac flowers, with a knock-you-out scent! Don't know the correct name.

Back to Salvias, I have lost some interest in all these small blue-flowered species. IMHO, I prefer Salvia chamaedryoides....more flowers, and quite beautiful.

Less untidy, and very floriferous.


    Bookmark   August 19, 2008 at 5:58PM
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Part of my interest is to include these plants in a planting at our local Botanical Garden as they have
no proper Salvia collection. The other half of my
interest is to bring Blue hybrids in the greggii/
microphylla genetics.Increase the flower size and
cold tolerance of S.greggii and increased color
range in both species.The coahuilensis forms I have seen
are to untidy for my taste.The only plant that I have been
working with is Pat McNeal's Hybrid Pastel Purple I have had some nice plants come out of that but not a blue seedling to be found.

    Bookmark   August 19, 2008 at 10:48PM
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