New Sans, an ID please.

tropicbreezentOctober 24, 2013

Yesterday I just couldn't walk past this Sans, it wasn't labelled as anything. The leaves are very broad but not tall, as can be seen from the size of the pot - 300 millimetre. Just hoping someone can ID it for me, thanks.

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roberto2

Try masoniana or grandis.

    Bookmark   October 25, 2013 at 4:52AM
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Stush2049(Pitts., Pa. 6)

tropicbreezent,
Roberto may be right but you got to understand that ID'ing a plant is one of the hardest jobs to do even for the experts. Most will refuse unless you know where it was collected from. and so on. History, age of plant. After growing it for years and taking notes of every aspect. And being able to compare it directly to one known named. But all said does look like Roberto may be right.
Stush

    Bookmark   October 25, 2013 at 10:41AM
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beth95(6)

Whatever it may be, it's gorgeous!

    Bookmark   October 25, 2013 at 9:28PM
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tropicbreezent

Thanks for those comments. I checked out the suggested IDs. S. grandis is a synonym of S. hyacinthoides, but the leaves on the photos I found tended to be much narrower than those on mine. There's nothing else I have to go by as there aren't any flowers and I don't know how old the plant is. It could even be a cultivar. The photos of S. masoniana look a lot more like mine. That one comes from Zaire and gets up to about shoulder height. The nursery where I got it thought it was S. gigantea, but checking shows that's an illegal (or non-existant) name. So I'll go with S. masoniana for now and see how big it gets. Probably take a while, hopefully it might flower earlier. There's a spot in the garden where it would get more morning sun and a little more filtered sun in the afternoon, plus good drainage. Seems like the best place to be its new home. Thanks again everyone.

    Bookmark   October 26, 2013 at 12:33AM
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roberto2

Wonderful! For the first time in Sansevieria's taxonomic history a plant has been correctly identified! In facts, grandis, masoniana, hyacinthoides are (according to the most famous living Sans taxonomist) all the same thing . See below :

S.hyacinthoides (L.) Druce (1914). Synonims: (S.guineensis (L.) Willdenow (1799),
S.thyrsiflora Thunberg (1794), S.spicata (Cavanilles) Haworth (1812),
S.latifolia Bojer (1837), S.angustifolia Lindberg (1875), S.grandis J.D.
Hooker (1903), S.nobilis Godefroy-Lebeuf (1903) nom. nud., S.grandis var.
zuluensis N.E. Brown, Kew Bulletin 1915 (5): 72, fig. 21 (1915) South
Africa, ?Zimbabwe, ?Zaire (the cultivar known as 'Mason Congo' may be
referrable here)

(This was written in 1998 before 'masoniana' was described).
One last point : the flood of 'masoniana variegated flowing from Thailand and Indonesia, are actually S.elliptica...)

    Bookmark   October 26, 2013 at 6:10AM
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Solar_Storm(24 CA)

Roberto, if you weren't being sarcastic, I wish you had cited the author. I have my suspicions, but will say there are (and always have been) lumpers & splitters. I advise keeping an open mind regarding name changes and if you change the tag in a sans pot, keep track of the old name. My guineensis from FL has three tags. I expect the problem to get worse before it gets better as the results of genomic studies become more common.

    Bookmark   October 26, 2013 at 1:34PM
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Stush2049(Pitts., Pa. 6)

Solar,
Who's doing the studies? The ISS? I wish they wasn't so expensive and to buy back issues to catch-up with. May be too much for me now. I bet it would be a very interesting read.

Roberto,
I knew hyacinthoides and a few others are now grouped in guineensis. Grandis was confused with masoniana by a lot of nurseries and Masion Congo carried as it's nick name which is now no longer used for masoniana. So I thought guineensis is not masoniana.
The controversey continues!
Stush

    Bookmark   October 26, 2013 at 1:54PM
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tropicbreezent

Roberto2, of course if you knew about taxonomy you'd know that an accepted name is correct at the time it becomes accepted but can later change if someone publishes a plausible reason why it should be considered different. If the reason becomes accepted then any resulting changed name becomes the accepted name. It's the nature of the beast. Sarcasm doesn't change things. If you think you have a case, then publish. It gets back to the old saying, "Put up, or shut up".

By the way, thanks for the heads up on Sansevieria elliptica. It's also a possibility, my mind is open.

Sansevieria hyacinthoides (L.) Druce, Rep. Bot. Exch. Club Soc. Brit. Isles 3: 423 (1913 publ. 1914).

Homotypic Synonyms:

Aloe hyacinthoides L., Sp. Pl.: 321 (1753).

Aletris hyacinthoides (L.) L., Sp. Pl. ed. 2: 456 (1762).

Cordyline hyacinthoides (L.) W.Wight, Contr. U. S. Natl. Herb. 9: 249 (1904).

Heterotypic Synonyms:

Aloe hyacinthoides var. guineensis L., Sp. Pl.: 321 (1753).

Aletris hyacinthoides var. guineensis (L.) L., Sp. Pl. ed. 2: 456 (1762).

Aloe guineensis (L.) Jacq., Enum. Stirp. Vindob.: 308 (1762).

Aletris guineensis (L.) Jacq., Hort. Bot. Vindob.: 63 (1772).

Acyntha guineensis (L.) Medik., Theodora: 76 (1786).

Sanseverinia thyrsiflora Petagna, Inst. Bot. 3: 643 (1787).

Veltheimia guineensis (L.) Neck., Elem. Bot. 3: 186 (1790), opus utique oppr.

Sansevieria thyrsiflora (Petagna) Thunb., Prodr. Pl. Cap.: 65 (1794).

Salmia guineensis (L.) Cav., Icon. 3: 24 (1795).

Salmia spicata Cav., Icon. 3: 24 (1795).

Pleomele aloifolia Salisb., Prodr. Stirp. Chap. Allerton: 245 (1796).

Sansevieria guineensis (L.) Willd., Sp. Pl. 2: 159 (1799).

Sansevieria laetevirens Haw., Syn. Pl. Succ.: 66 (1812).

Sansevieria polyphylla Haw., Syn. Pl. Succ.: 65 (1812).

Sansevieria spicata (Cav.) Haw., Syn. Pl. Succ.: 66 (1812).

Sansevieria fulvocincta Haw., Suppl. Pl. Succ.: 30 (1819).

Sansevieria stenophylla Link, Enum. Hort. Berol. Alt. 1: 342 (1821).

Sansevieria latifolia Bojer, Hortus Maurit.: 348 (1837).

Sansevieria ceylonica Oken, Allg. Naturgesch. 3(1): 565 (1841).

Sansevieria angustiflora Lindb., Acta Soc. Sci. Fenn. 10: 130 (1871).

Sansevieria angustifolia Baker, J. Linn. Soc., Bot. 14: 547 (1875), nom. illeg.

Sansevieria rufocincta Baker, J. Linn. Soc., Bot. 14: 548 (1875).

Acyntha thyrsiflora (Thunb.) Kuntze, Revis. Gen. Pl. 2: 699 (1891).

Sansevieria grandis Hook.f., Bot. Mag. 129: t. 7877 (1903).

Sansevieria grandis var. zuluensis N.E.Br., Bull. Misc. Inform. Kew 1915: 252 (1915).

Cordyline guineensis (L.) Britton, Brooklyn Bot. Gard. Mem. 1: 35 (1918).

    Bookmark   October 26, 2013 at 11:33PM
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barbmock

Have a look at this link. http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/sansevieria/msg0420521528291.html
I found these at a local nursery and took this picture. I have looked at them again recently, and, wow they are growing right out of the pots. They look like the same plant to me. I think they may take over your yard, Tropic!

    Bookmark   October 28, 2013 at 10:30AM
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Stush2049(Pitts., Pa. 6)

Barb,
I was looking over the web for Sans as always and read some interesting material about the 'Futura' Group. Leaf reverts to 'Robesta' not trifasciata leading the author to believe it is a hybrid not a cultivar. Did not say with what. Very interesting indeed. Anybody have any thoughts about this??

    Bookmark   October 28, 2013 at 12:56PM
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barbmock

Hi all,
I do enjoy reading about these background stories on our sans. It does seem like the names will never really be straightened out. It would be great to know just how each variety came to be, and have a proper name.

But, the important part for me, at least, is that I really like all the variety, they are beautiful, and for the most part easy to grow. I just enjoy growing and watching them every day.

    Bookmark   October 28, 2013 at 2:05PM
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roberto2

To Tropicbreezent .Well, thanks for the list : I know like old friends all the synonyms ( only the unfortunate S.guineensis Persoon , as quoted by Haworth, 1812 is missingâ¦) and I am sure at least three different plants thrive in this forest of names:
1) S.trifasciata as illustrated by Jacquin in 1770 (but cultivated in Wien since 1762). It forced Brown to cancel his âÂÂS.jacquiniiâÂÂ. All the following names referring to this plant (I say CavanillesâÂÂSalmia) are S.trifasciata. More : this plant was grown all around the world as S.zebrina since 1877 (Wien, Kew, Torino, New York, Bruxelles) but this name is attributed (as âÂÂnomen nudumâÂÂ) to L.Gentil in 1907â¦
2)CommelijnâÂÂs plant had short (30cm. high) , outcurved , rigid leaves and came from South Africa via Simon van Beaumont. It was recollected by Thunberg who confirmed it is a South African species (S.thyrsiflora).
3) All the other âÂÂguineensisâ have long, straight, flexible, leaves (in my garden they reach near two meters in height), and prefer the tropical or subtropical regions of Africa. A difference in leaf pattern (striped vs patched ) is to be considered , too.
Wijnands reduction of all the mess to S.hyacinthoides is technically flawless, but misses the truth. Next era, I fear, is for splitters.

    Bookmark   October 28, 2013 at 5:49PM
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Solar_Storm(24 CA)

Noted sans authority Juan Chahinian says, "The first dwarf [hahnii] cultivar and direct parent of most of the other dwarf varieties, was discovered in New Orleans at Crescent Nursery Co. by W. W. Smith Jr. and patented as an 'improved varietyâ of Sansevieria. It bears patent No. 470, dated June 3rd. 1941. The dwarf sported off a S. t. 'Laurentii'. In his 1986 book he says, S.t. 'Futura' arose in Belgium as a hahnii sport and was imported to the USA. I'm not sure if it was the first "Future" type.

    Bookmark   October 28, 2013 at 5:55PM
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Stush2049(Pitts., Pa. 6)

Wow, who needs to buy books, we got it all here. If we had a publisher to put it all together for us. Love it. keep it up guys. Maybe we can add an index coving all sanseriera right down to maybe a common link.
Stush
Solar,
Did you ever heard of Futura being maybe a hybrid not a cultivar of trifasciata?
Stush

    Bookmark   October 29, 2013 at 1:58PM
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tropicbreezent

After 8 long months of tireless searching and researching I have finally solved the mystery of the Sans ID. I'm sure you've all been waiting anxiously for this amazing revelation. It's natural range is Gabon to Tanzania and southern tropical Africa. The (current, and long standing) name is Sansevieria aubrytiana Carrière, Rev. Hort. (Paris) 1861: 449 (1861).

    Bookmark   May 31, 2014 at 7:10PM
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petrushka

tropic, you are a veritable sherlock holmes of plants! i am still wondering about that fl fern you id'ed for me - you must search some special databases with pics that are well hidden from masses?

    Bookmark   June 1, 2014 at 11:29AM
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tropicbreezent

The "8 long months of tireless searching and researching" was tongue-in-cheek. I actually gave up on it but still kept it in the back of my mind. Last weekend there was an annual festival at our botanic gardens that I attended. After going in one of the first plants I saw was this Sans. What would we do without a bit of serendipity?

I have a lot of links to many sites and I also have many contacts that I can ask. Often these will provide some clues which can be tracked down. Sometimes you only come up with a blank. Whatever I find I check out on the Kew Gardens register to see whether it's still current. I do have a bit of an obsession with fossicking out the finer details, often more than what most others even want to know about. But I always feel it's better to know a bit more than what you need rather than less than what you need.

    Bookmark   June 2, 2014 at 3:23AM
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barbmock

Tropicbreeze,

How does your plant look now that it has been growing for a while? A picture would be nice.

    Bookmark   June 2, 2014 at 9:49AM
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tropicbreezent

Bmock, this morning's photo.

    Bookmark   June 3, 2014 at 1:45PM
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barbmock

It looks so happy to be in the ground. It should really take off and make some huge leaves for you. Thanks for the pic.

    Bookmark   June 3, 2014 at 3:58PM
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petrushka

oh, tropic... off-topic...but...i stumbled 'ontheedge' - great place! lots of great info! .
gotcha! ...giggles..

    Bookmark   June 6, 2014 at 9:00PM
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tropicbreezent

Petrushka, various sites have different emphases so makes it more interesting to visit a number of them. I'm also on palms, cycads, orchids, aroids, etc., not to mention several fauna ones.

    Bookmark   June 7, 2014 at 7:00PM
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petrushka

and i am slowly finding them too...;)

    Bookmark   June 7, 2014 at 10:58PM
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