just getting started (part 4)

jim1961 Zone 6a Central Pa.August 18, 2009

Just as Jason lives on, so, does these threads...LOL

Well Courageous bloomed, but, bugs ate the bloom...LOL

Still looks good from a distance though...LOL

I proped up that cane that was laying on the ground on Courageous.

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phatboyrose(N/W FL. - 8)

Jim it really ticks me off when bugs eat the buds on my roses too. I have thought about spraying the buds just before they open but like you I have a few humingbirds that I don't want to harm, so I'll just have to live with it. LOL
Harold

    Bookmark   August 18, 2009 at 4:32PM
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serenasyh(was 5/now Z 8-Kans)

Harold and Jim, I'm thinking while we are JB beetle free, we might as well start the Milky Spore and beneficial nematodes ahead of time. It's like, might as well right? before the baddies come.

Today, my parents and I visited the butterfly exhibit. They were sooo beautiful, fluttering everywhere. It was a gorgeous sight. Butterflies and bees altogether! absolutely gorgeous! I have never seen that many variety of bumblebees and bees at Powell Gardens! I am so mad at myself though! I used up all! my battery power in my CanonXT trying to get butterfly photos that I couldn't get photos of the bumblebees and honeybees (SOBBBBBB!)

I should have bought an extra battery this past weekend and brought both batteries to the exhibit and gardens! I am so upset!

Yes, I too can never bring myself to spray either neem or insecticidal soap or any other insecticide because I want the bees to be as healthy and as active as possible. But yes, those JBs would definitely drive me beserk. I can imagine myself screeching, dunking beetle after beetle in soapy water, stomping and squishing them like a crazed maniac.

Jim, I'm going to try to download the butterfly photos as my Get-Well wishes for Sue since my Gemini blooms were ruined by the rain...

Am again keeping all my prayers and hopes for her...

    Bookmark   August 18, 2009 at 8:34PM
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jim1961 Zone 6a Central Pa.

Doesn't that upset you when the battery in the camera goes dead before you finish taken pics... Happens to me also...LOL

Can't wait to see butterfly pics.

I was reading research on Milky Spore yesterday. Takes 3 years to become effective here in Pa.

I found this article interesting on Milky Spore:

http://www.gardensalive.com/article.asp?ai=768&bhcd2=1250644904

    Bookmark   August 18, 2009 at 9:24PM
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rosemeadow_gardener

It looks a healthy bush, Jim. It does look a nice red, the bud.

    Bookmark   August 19, 2009 at 8:56AM
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jim1961 Zone 6a Central Pa.

Here's a pic today of Courageous.

    Bookmark   August 19, 2009 at 11:23AM
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jim1961 Zone 6a Central Pa.

serenasyh,

Did you ever order from RU (Roses Unlimited)???
Wondering how your experience was with them if you did?

We want 2 Clements roses for next Spring and I just seen that RU is selling them too. Thanks!

JIM

    Bookmark   August 19, 2009 at 3:52PM
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serenasyh(was 5/now Z 8-Kans)

Jim, I love ordering from RU. The roses arrive so huge, healthy and vigorous. You will love them. I always order from RU. They are my number one vendor. However! the only problem is they are very popular and their roses will be snatched! you have to quickly call them up or else the roses will be gone!!!! I emailed right away to order another rose-- Lady Jane Grey, but alas! someone beat me to it. Email is too slow! I keep ordering bunches of roses from them...

They specialize in own root roses...

    Bookmark   August 19, 2009 at 5:16PM
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jim1961 Zone 6a Central Pa.

serenasyh,

I just e-mailed RU to see if I sent them a money order right now, if the 2 roses we want would be avalable to be shipped out May of 2010.

That's our month to plant potted plants in the Spring.

JIM

    Bookmark   August 19, 2009 at 6:03PM
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serenasyh(was 5/now Z 8-Kans)

Hi, Jim! actually they do take pre-orders with no problem. It's only if you're trying to catch a sale then it's so tough! you have to deal with a bunch of crazed RU fans like myself grabbing and snatching roses right and left! LOL! I was one of those sale scrabbling maniacs who missed out!

    Bookmark   August 19, 2009 at 6:06PM
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jim1961 Zone 6a Central Pa.

serenasyh,

Thanks again for the butterfly thread! We appreciate it!

I pre-ordered the 2 roses we want from RU for next Spring.

rosemeadow_gardener is having trouble with uploading pics in her thread, maybe you can help her out???

JIm

    Bookmark   August 20, 2009 at 10:25AM
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serenasyh(was 5/now Z 8-Kans)

Jim, oops! I just got the tail end of your post. Usually threads keep getting pushed down, so I missed it. Same with Karen! I had to do a delayed response, argh! I think it's because I don't get here early enough in the day to see yours and Karen's threads when they first show up. Yes, I did a reply. Hopefully she'll soon have her photos up!

Courageous is looking fantastic and so healthy! and yay! a pretty bloom! I count at least 3 branches that are getting ready with some buds? Usually you can tell when a rosebush is getting ready to bud or flower by the clustered leaf patterns. I can usually tell even though I can't "see" the buds. Heh-heh! you will have to tell me if I'm wrong, LOL! and put me back in my place for presuming and braaaging about my observation prowess.

I love my roses; it's so funny how each seems to have its own personality. It looks like my Special Occasion will always be a very! compact shorter bush that has lots of blooms. Aromatherapy has one of the most leathery leaves I have ever seen for a rose, and the insects hate her leaves. After I "agreed" not to hack him anymore, Lincoln is at peace now and is starting to send up large blooms again. Penny Lane's fragrance is a joy because it smells so unique to roses, it smells like a Gardenia which I've never smelled in the roses at my local nursery. It has lots of blooms. And of course there's my sweet, fruity scented Gemini. Climbing America has fewer blooms and is a pretty pink rather than the deep salmon that I was hoping for, but it's still pretty. It is a slower bloomer not like Penny Lane's rapid-fire buds!

    Bookmark   August 21, 2009 at 5:32PM
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jim1961 Zone 6a Central Pa.

I think I did see some buds on Courageous today. I'll have to pay more attention next time I go out to look at the roses.

Glad your roses are doing ok also. That's great to hear!

Hopefully Karen will get her rose pics on soon!

JIM

    Bookmark   August 21, 2009 at 6:11PM
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jim1961 Zone 6a Central Pa.

I was looking up the roses you have on Helpmefind.com
Special Occasion is a orange blend Hybrid rose?
It says for zones 7b and warmer?
Own-root site has good for zones 6-10
Grafted stock zone 7-10

Jeez, I hope your rose makes it through your winter.
Your in zone 5, right?
Wonder if you will have to use winter protection?

JIM

    Bookmark   August 21, 2009 at 11:04PM
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serenasyh(was 5/now Z 8-Kans)

eeeeks! well, Jim, the Special Occasion rose's zone wasn't listed when I originally bought it. The sellers are in England. So as a newbie, stupid me, I just bought it on impulse when I was searching for a rose with sunset colors that resembled Peace but had definite fragrance to it.

I never intended to plant mine this year but the next because they're such small tender baby-bands-growing-up. I intended to keep them in pots. I will be winter protecting all of my outdoor roses this year except for Queen Elizabeth because I hate its lack of fragrance and would like to replace it with another pink fragrant rose. It will be sink or swim for QE. I will heap a bunch of mulch around her however. What I consider real protection is doing the bagged leaves' barrier and rose cones.

    Bookmark   August 22, 2009 at 2:08PM
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jim1961 Zone 6a Central Pa.

Some types of leaves will cause fungus growth when they get and stay wet. I have heard that shredded oak leaves are best. Other than that I don't know. Some mulches also breed fungus when wet.
That's why i'm afraid to over-winter here. I'm going to let our roses defend for themselves and hopefully find roses that will last winter after winter.
That's why I prefer own-root roses. More winter hardy.

JIm

    Bookmark   August 22, 2009 at 3:03PM
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serenasyh(was 5/now Z 8-Kans)

Jim, that is why you have to bag the leaves and use them as a barrier. It just drives the neighbors crazy, because it looks so ugly! I am going to have a very! tough time surrounding mine with the bags because the roses are clustered close to each other and! the herbs. I actually think you'll be fine because your temperatures never drop below 0. I am going to do a combination of bagged leaves, rose cones and burlap and special tomato cages that can be free-formed.

Our winters are usually! very mild except we are plastered by freezing rains on a few rare occasions. Ice is far worse than snow.

We are borderline zone 5/6.

    Bookmark   August 22, 2009 at 3:14PM
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jim1961 Zone 6a Central Pa.

Never heard of using bagged leaves...LOL What type of bag would you use? Burlap? Plastic?

Jim

    Bookmark   August 22, 2009 at 3:39PM
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serenasyh(was 5/now Z 8-Kans)

Jim, I was shocked too! as a newbie to hear that when people meant bagged leaves, they literally meant that! Ordinary Hefty bags filled up and surrounding the roses! But yup! that's what they do. My burlap is just for wrapping my tomato cage contraptions where the bags can't surround.

    Bookmark   August 22, 2009 at 4:02PM
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jim1961 Zone 6a Central Pa.

I just read an interesting article. Some guy puts garbage cans/pales over his roses when the Temps are below 20 degrees. Then, removes the garbage cans when the Temps are above 20 degrees.
He says that even garbage cans left on roses will breed fungus at 25 degrees and up , but, will not at the lower temps.
This makes me afraid to smother our roses with any type of smothering protection.
I may try the garbage can thing as instructed by this guy...LOL

JIM

    Bookmark   August 22, 2009 at 4:42PM
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jim1961 Zone 6a Central Pa.

I think the roses we have are hardy enough to with-stand winter. Alittle worried about Courageous though as they say Harkness roses sometimes do not do well in real cold temps.
I understand Kordes roses are great for alot of things.
I may just build a protective barrier around all the roses to just block winter drying winds. Keeping the barrier far enough away that it will still give the roses some air circulation, so, as not to cause fungus or rot.
Then, on real cold days/nights below 15 degrees, I may just cover them with a garbage can to protect them further.
Then remove the garbage cans when the temps go back up to above 15-20 degrees.
I'm more worried about the baby band roses, as I read an article that said, some baby band roses are not winter-hardy until there second season, as the roots have had more time to bond into the soil. First season the roots are not well bonded into the soil yet and that causes winter-injury death to some roses.
I will have to think on this some more...LOL

JIM

    Bookmark   August 22, 2009 at 5:52PM
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serenasyh(was 5/now Z 8-Kans)

tee-hee, I think both our neighbors will be knocking on our doors to have a "talk" with us when winter comes. Yeah, plastic and garbage cans and lumpy burlap are all very unsightly.

Jim, remember how you had a hard time actually believing that my Lincolns were truly twins in terms of being equally vigorous, strong and healthy? Until I reminded you that one of them had been 2/3rds eaten by Monster Rabbit when it was still a baby plant? Well maybe these 2 photos will also convince you. Like I mentioned at least 3 branches, possibly 4 had completely been eaten (vanished into thin air) There is no doubt in my mind that those branches would have been strong canes. Nevertheless from this angle you can see the potential.

Here is the Lincoln that wasn't eaten by the rabbit:

Here is the Lincoln that was eaten by Monster Rabbit in May.

I know you really enjoy looking at the entire rose plant, so this is a sort of fun photo too.

Here are my climbers and my smaller Special Occasion and my little Eluane in the background. The smaller Special Occasion may be small but it has lovely, lovely blooms! and lots! of them too! Penny Lane the white one is a true blooming machine. This photo I had to deadhead at least 5 of them to give it a neater appearance.

I remember having a debate too on the forum that there was no way my Special Occasion bands would be ready to plant for this year's winter when I first received them. I still stand by my original thought. They are very healthy! but not old enough to plant into the ground I feel.

    Bookmark   August 22, 2009 at 6:04PM
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jim1961 Zone 6a Central Pa.

Yes, Courageous does have some buds on it.

Courageous is really growing like a bad weed. I swear it grows an inch a day...LOL

Sweet Afton is shooting up some tall canes.

Precious Platinum is still naked...LOL, but, more leaves and canes are growing.

    Bookmark   August 22, 2009 at 7:11PM
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jim1961 Zone 6a Central Pa.

I didn't realize your roses were in pots. I thought they were planted into the ground.

Your Lincolns have awesome blooms on them!

So, I guess you will be over-wintering potted roses?

RECENT PIC OF POTTED BONFIRE

    Bookmark   August 22, 2009 at 7:21PM
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serenasyh(was 5/now Z 8-Kans)

hehe! now I get to braaag, about my observation prowess in predicting where Courageous buds were at. And I can predict another 2 buds after 3 weeks have passed on your first photo, which will be the next bud formation. I notice that the majority of your roses have a distinct V shape too in their canes. Most of my roses are closer to your Courageous. They will have one cane that is just a little more pronounced and the rest of the bush will be fat and fluffy.

But your bushes are far less insect riddled than mine, LOL! Mine have tons of insects chomping except for Aromatherapy. Insects hate that rose-leathery thick leaves, LOL! A fantastic beginner's roses. Darn cucumber beetles keep sucking the juices out of my blooms (except for Lincoln). I hate spraying my Gemini blooms with hot pepper spray because I love its scent and don't want the pepper aroma mingling with it. That's why I delayed the pepper much to my regret!

    Bookmark   August 22, 2009 at 7:33PM
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jim1961 Zone 6a Central Pa.

I pre-ordered the rose Distant Drums from RU to be delivered May 2010. Good for zones 4/5-9
In my thread on the main rose forum, other people have had trouble keeping it alive over winters. That is really weird for a cold hardy buck rose.
This rose could be a real challenge to grow, but, I will give it the old college try...LOL

JIM

    Bookmark   August 23, 2009 at 12:44AM
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serenasyh(was 5/now Z 8-Kans)

Jim, to be honest I am shocked by people having problems with Distant Drums over winter and with the BS. I too think that is weird. It is the one rose that Powell Gardens wants and they are completely no-spray; the bushes look very clean too. Plus Powell Gardens prefers plants that can survive on their own. They are a no-fuss garden and any rose that gobbles up too much time and fussiness they definitely don't want. That's why you find so few roses there. The gardens are absolutely! lovely--they just choose a very vibrant array of flowers other than roses. I bet Distant Drums will do wonderful for you. Just keep feeding it that DrammaticK and with the foliar spray and it should take off. Plus RU roses are huge! you should have no problem with getting strong and viable roses.

Jim, there's something weird about the Rose Forum. I noticed when I reply I miss out on 2 of your reply posts. It's like they don't appear until several minutes later. Maybe one of our computers is registering faster than the other. Hmmmm.

Jim, here are my potted roses: 2 Special Occasion bands, climbing rose Penny Lane, climbing rose America, tree rose Fragrant Cloud, tree rose Gemini, and finally! poor Frederick Mistral that my boyfriend also! knocked over while playing with Eluane. LOL! yes, he seems intent on killing all of my roses, he hates them so, LOL! Everyone, including my mom, Dad and brother think I overly obsess over them.

The 2 climbing roses will be buried with their pots into the ground. The 2 tree roses will go into the living room next to the couch (hahahaha! yes, I am insane!), the 2 Special Occasion bands and Frederick Mistral will go into the garage.

The roses planted straight into the ground are 2 Lincolns, 1 Aromatherapy, 1 Tiffany and Queen Elizabeth. Frederick was dug up and put into a pot. Sadly, I should have done this months! ago, poor thing. Each time it tried to bud more stems, the baby stems would rot because of lack of sunlight, plus it eventually caught QE's blackspot. Normally Frederick Mistral is resistant to blackspot. It is now doing fine under direct sunlight and the blackspot has finally! stopped completely with the good ole Kansas sun blazing out its healing rays.

In 2010 I will dig up the stray once-bloomer mini and transplant it into an obscure corner of the house in order to make room for 2 more roses next year. I will also dig out the climbing roses from their pots and transplant them into the ground once my other new climbing roses from RU start to bloom(Royal Sunset, Compassion, and Viking Queen). I decided not to plant any roses to their permanent location until I actually see and compare what the blooms look like under Kansas sun. That way I can know how to color arrange them. The only exception are the 2 Sutter's Gold. I definitely know where I want to plant those. Lady Emma Hamilton will also be arriving in 2010. I plan to get one ground cover rose as well.

    Bookmark   August 23, 2009 at 1:55AM
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jim1961 Zone 6a Central Pa.

"The 2 climbing roses will be buried with their pots into the ground."
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I read a couple of articles on burying pots. They should be buried on a slant. Because if buried upright, they say it does not drain properly and water will stay in the pot and rot the roots and may also freeze.

I was wondering, if a person lined the bottom of the hole with some stones, would it then drain properly if buried upright???
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"Everyone, including my mom, Dad and brother think I overly obsess over them." LOL...LOL

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Well, hopefully everything over-winters good for you!
So, you can get things planted into the ground this coming Spring.

JIM

    Bookmark   August 23, 2009 at 1:14PM
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serenasyh(was 5/now Z 8-Kans)

hmmm, I couldn't find anything that says something about tilting one's pots online (googled). If I use my logical thought about gravity, to me tilting would be worse because it would make the drainage uneven not to mention that the soil will roll off to one side.

I'm sure Karl would have mentioned this if it were an important factor. He is usually very "technical" about his advice.

    Bookmark   August 23, 2009 at 3:50PM
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serenasyh(was 5/now Z 8-Kans)

How is Sue feeling? I've been thinking of her this weekend too!

    Bookmark   August 23, 2009 at 3:56PM
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jim1961 Zone 6a Central Pa.

I would ask Karl again about the pots. Karl mentions to bury a tree rose laying down on its side, then completely buried with leaves???

Sue is doing very good today! The treatments and prayers really helped! Her eyesight is also back to normal!

JIM

    Bookmark   August 23, 2009 at 4:30PM
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phatboyrose(N/W FL. - 8)

Serenasyh and Jim I've been lurking behind the roses bushes listening to your conversations. haha One thought came to mind about the bugs chopping on your rose buds, you may want to try the trick that people that show roses use and that is to cover the buds with these little mesh bags that I buy at Walmart in the arts & craft dept. They have a draw string built into them and can be reused many times. You only need to leave them on until the bloom starts to open good then you can remove and enjoy your blooms.LOL
Harold

    Bookmark   August 23, 2009 at 4:32PM
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jim1961 Zone 6a Central Pa.

This can be found on Karls website:

http://www.rosenut.com/rosecare/overwintering.htm

Overwintering Roses in Pots

Back to Rosenut's Rose Care

Roses in pots require special care to overwinter in cold climates where the temperature falls below zero.

If you have some area where you could bury them at least 12-18' deep, I guarantee they will survive the winter. I mean cover them up like you were digging a grave. Lay them on their side in the hole, pot and all. Line the hole with shredded leaves or wood shavings. Make sure they go dormant before you bury them. Dig the hole in early fall and have it ready in case the real cold weather catches you off guard.
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Harold, I will look into the netting deal. Thanks for the suggestion! I will try anything once...LOL

JIM

    Bookmark   August 23, 2009 at 4:39PM
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jim1961 Zone 6a Central Pa.

Harold, thanks again for the netting tip! You do know you can join in on our conversations anytime you wish. That goes for anyone else also. Quit lurking in those rose bushes...LOL

JIM

    Bookmark   August 23, 2009 at 4:50PM
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jim1961 Zone 6a Central Pa.

In addition to Karls article that I posted above, here is another article on burying potted roses.
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Another thing to consider is that once the ground freezes under the container, water cannot escape the bottom of the pot. The container will thaw before the ground does and if you get a few rainy days, the water will stand in the pot, either rotting the roots or turning into an ice cube when the weather chills again. Avoid this by tilting the pots slightly.

And finally, make sure your container is strong enough to make it through winter. The more porous your container is, the more likely it will crack during winter. Materials like untreated terra cotta can absorb absorb water, which expands when frozen and cracks the pot.
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http://gardening.about.com/od/containergardenin1/a/Winter-Pots.htm

    Bookmark   August 23, 2009 at 5:06PM
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serenasyh(was 5/now Z 8-Kans)

hahaha! lurking in the rose bushes is more appropriate for me, Jim! I am stilllll wondering where! JeffAurora is! I haven't seen his roses, seems like forever! and I'm ready to POUNCE!

Yeah, Harold, great to see you too, makes things lively! especially since now I'm going to have an itsy bitsy debate with Jim right now.

Jim, Karl's method is completely different than his other method, simply burying the pots in the ground with external winter protection. That first method Karl mentioned is called Minnesota tipping which is completely different than the simple buried pot method. Minnesota tipping is when you are burying the entire! plant underground. That does guarantee 100% survival, but for most people that is simply not feasible. Burying takes too much real estate. There's no room! to do Minnesota tipping for each pot when your lot is blockaded by other roses.

I have my doubts about what Ehow says about tilting the pots. The main reason is that the holes are evenly dispersed and you have to consider that tilted pots means tilted soil which can erode away exposing too much roots and cane should heavy November rains pelt away at one's plants. I think tilting is a very! bad idea. Plus my pots are very large! and deep. It should have no troubles in terms of drainage I feel. Usually even moderate-heavy rain are only 2" high. I'd rather take the risk of drainage than soil eroding away from my canes and roots, exposing them to freezing ice. That would surely kill my rose. Also, when a pot is as huge and deep as mine, it won't turn into an ice cube. It's too large. My pots, by the way are all plastic.

Actually, heheh! come to think of it, even if it were terra cotta and were to crack, that's o.k. too! you see, then with a cracked terra cotta pot it's easy to remove the plant from the cracked pot and transplant it and! you wouldn't have any drainage problems because any excess water would just drain out. In fact a cracked terra cotta pot would just make my life "easy", lol! but no, I have a plastic pot to wrestle with come spring!

P.S. I'm so happy to hear that Sue's vision has returned that is TERRIFIC news! I am keeping those prayers rollin' for her! Hurray!

    Bookmark   August 23, 2009 at 7:00PM
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jim1961 Zone 6a Central Pa.

I'm over wintering our potted rose under our front porch.
I'm also digging a 2 1/2 ft deep hole in case that doesn't work out. Plan B...LOL

I have already tried to over-winter other types of plants using the method you want to use. All were failures here, so, that's not an option here to even consider. The roots were destroyed, in my opinion they needed to be much deeper to survive here. No doubt in my mind.

JIM

    Bookmark   August 23, 2009 at 8:02PM
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serenasyh(was 5/now Z 8-Kans)

Jim, I too have to be digging that deep of a hole 2-1/2 feet, otherwise my pot is not going to be able to fit. Both pots are very large and deep. I think both the size of my pots and the size/health of my roses are really going to help with their survival. In fact I am confident that they're going to do as well as a regular planted rose. You see, buried is buried whether it's in a buried pot or ordinary buried/planted roots so long as the pot is large enough for adequate drainage. Even Karl admitted that because he has soooo many roses some of them were still in their buried pots for several years, until when transplanting a few bushes, he dug them up and realized! that they were still in those buried pots.

A lot of plants do not have strong enough root systems unlike rose roots. Rose roots are actually very viable and strong unless! they're baby bands in their first year of growing. I prefer putting my baby bands in and out of the garage because I don't think their roots and more! importantly, their canes are strong enough to withstand the freezes. What's worst for any rose is when those roots are exposed, that's why I don't want to tilt my pots.

Another clarification: the only reason why I didn't plant my climbing roses into the ground instead of the pots is because my new climbing roses lot has not been prepared yet. It won't be ready until 2010. Plus I haven't decided on the color scheme yet since I'll be getting several more roses.

So I will be crossing my fingers!

    Bookmark   August 23, 2009 at 9:14PM
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jim1961 Zone 6a Central Pa.

1 year own-root Rose roots...
I can't wait to experiment with over-wintering our potted rose...LOL
I'm really hoping that under the front porch works out as I would like to grow more potted roses. Just would never have the room to bury a bunch of pots...LOL

    Bookmark   August 23, 2009 at 10:00PM
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jim1961 Zone 6a Central Pa.

I just wrote Karl an e-mail to find out exactly how a potted container rose should be buried for best winter survival.
Small roses, larger roses ect.
Upright/slanted/upsidedown...LOL

JIM

    Bookmark   August 23, 2009 at 10:31PM
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