Need help from my rosey specialist friends here....

serenasyh(was 5/now Z 8-Kans)September 19, 2011

Since many of you have so many varieties of roses here, I found out some pretty sad news about Vintage Gardens closing its doors after 2013, so I thought I'd try to buy a few roses - even though yikes! I can't really afford to do so... However, since Vintage Gardens is in the very hot and dry climates, they wouldn't be able to tell me about BS magnets, of course! Anyway, here are the last roses I've narrowed my selection to. Since I am totally organics, is there any of these roses that I have to avoid? or ones that might end up non-fragrant in certain climates? Fragrance is essential for me too! I can take BS but not magnets!

Aztec

Capistrano

Saturnia

Girona

Purple Beauty

Shades of Autumn

P.S. I only go here to our Gallery and to the Peter Beales forum -- I'm not as fond of the regular Rose forum so I thought I'd ask my rosey friends here and at PB, but in Europe, I'm pretty sure most of these do not exist in their locale...Thanks all!

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TNY78(7a-East TN)

I don't grow these, but I was just looking them up on HMF to see that they look like (nosey me!) I love Girona, but its a pernetiana (which I believe makes it a little less hardy--more experienced rosarians feel free to correct me) and only hardy to 7b... although I have a pernetiana that I grow in 6b, Heinrich Wendland, but its on the side of my house that doesn't get much wind. All beautiful choices...wish I had some insight, but I'm only 3 years into roses and not quite yet qualified to comment on these :) Best of luck! I can't wait for my spring Vintage Gardens order to come in!

    Bookmark   September 19, 2011 at 9:55PM
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kstrong(10 So Cal)

Of those, I grow Saturnia and Purple Beauty -- and both require spraying here. Looking at the bloodlines of the other four you mention, I can see that they likely will also require spraying (strong Pernetiana and Charlotte Armstrong influence in the heritage). It actually looks pretty obvious from where I sit that these are not blackspot resistant roses that would be compatible with an organic/no spray gardening regime.

We don't do blackspot here, but most any rose susceptible to our mildew here will also be susceptible to blackspot elsewhere. I can't think of any rose that mildews but does not blackspot, in appropriate geographical locations. For most areas (just not here), blackspot is the more severe affliction. Interestingly, there are a few roses that do get blackspot that do not mildew -- so it seems to be a one-way equation, as far as I can tell.

You might want to concentrate on newer roses, if you are committed to the organics/no-spray course of rose growing. The reason is that, in the past, lesser air pollution controls -- the burning of dirtier coal and the spewing out of whatever into the air -- meant that roses received a sizable dose of sulphur (a very effective "organic" fungicide) just by virtue of growing in a populated area. Therefore, the older roses' breeders did not have to care very much about fungi in selecting which roses to introduce. That has all changed in the last twenty or so years. Generally speaking, with respect to "modern roses" only, the newer the rose, the more disease resistant. So, if you are "organic" and you want not to spray anything, even the "organics," then either go with the really old -- those survivors from cemetaries and so forth -- or the really much newer plants. Most anything from mid-century will be a disease problem for you. It wasn't that the breeders then were any less concerned about the health or beauty of their roses -- just that fungus-based disease was not really something they had to worry about. As I sit here, I'm trying to think of any modern rose introduced between say 1940 and 1980 that doesn't require spraying and I'm not coming up with much, which, I guess, is a large part of Vintage's problem. Vintage is however carrying quite a few rare, but newer roses now, including most of those recently imported by Eurodesert from Europe. Maybe you could look through that group.

As a side note, the reason I put "organics" in quotes here is because lime sulphur, although officially an organic, is quite a bit more toxic to humans and wildlife than, say, Compass as a fungicide, and must be used more often and in higher doses to control anything.

Good luck (although I'm sure that is not what you wanted to hear and sorry to be the bearer of bad news -- please don't shoot),

Kathy

    Bookmark   September 21, 2011 at 2:49PM
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Krista_5NY

Serena, I grow some old Hybrid Teas with my modern Hybrid Teas, and I do see blackspot and leaf drop late in the season on both, in my organic garden.

However, they do grow new leaves, and blackspot does not diminish their blooming. They bloom all summer long, which is really nice.

    Bookmark   September 21, 2011 at 3:30PM
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serenasyh(was 5/now Z 8-Kans)

Thanks so much everyone! Kathy and Tammy, your thoughts are very valuable especially with regard to the Pernetia lines! I was not aware of the Pernetia lines as being extremely problematic. I find when I talked with Krista last year, that she uses the very healthy but far less frequent bloomers of the "ancient" roses, and divides this with the modern HTs or the more frequent-blooming Austins so that there is always very lovely color in her beautiful garden, and you don't get the jaw-dropping ugliness of isolated HT bushes with their long-stemmed roses on naked stalks, lol!

Organics is a tough thing, because every organics gardener has individual soils, temperature issues, and you are always under the mercy of the weather. Non-stop rains and flooding will always screw up even the healthiest of gardens. My issue is because I am a lazy, lumpy gardener, I try to shortcut as much as I can, no complicated but highly valuable homemade brews and stinky manure based soils (which makes me wanna pass out even though the soils are fermented properly). But I lucked out in finding the best fertilizer (diluted Gardenville) to help with refoliation and a system for maintaining prolific leaves and blooms. By diluting it and increasing the feedings, the refoliation system works wonders! So that's why I can tolerate BS, I just don't want a BS magnet in which the rose is constantly! at a fragile, naked state and in which it never regains any sort of vitality...

Kathy, tons of newer roses lack scent which increases the BS resistance, so it's either the extremely fragrant-very rare-to-bloom roses or the plastic-scented new roses, lol! So as you can see, that is why I tolerate BS....I want intensely fragrant roses and ones that have a decent amount of rebloom 4-5 weeks. Anything requiring more than 5 weeks drives me berserk. So when I make my choice it comes with a little price tag called BS, haha!

So hmmmmm, back to square one! But are the Saturnia and Purple Beauty magnets? or do they just get some BS...And what about their growth habits? If they are like my Folklore, I am one happy camper, lol!

Folklore is always a leopard. But wow! it is one faaast rebloomer and so vigorous. Lots of spots, but also lots of healthy leaves intermingled. And the fragrance is great and the color of the blooms glow!

    Bookmark   September 21, 2011 at 8:07PM
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kstrong(10 So Cal)

Ha -- you are not demanding at all, just looking for the same thing everyone else has been seeking in breeding for the last many, many years --- rose perfection. Well, we can all dream. . . .

I'd like low maintenance, high fragrance, lots of blooms and quickly and pretty roses, please, and that's about it. As an amateur breeder and friend of many professional breeders, I think I am qualified to tell you that what you are looking for is just the holy grail. Everyone wants that in their breeding programs. HOWEVER, when push comes to shove, low maintenance and high bloom power tends to carry the day financially for rose introductions, and low maintenance is generally the same thing as catering to a buyer who demands no chemicals for other reasons, like a desire to be "green" or to stay away from things that smell like fish emulsion, or other rotten fertilizers. Something's gotta give, and the only thing that is optional is fragrance. So "plastic smelling" or not smelling at all, that is what generally gives -- in deference to the ability to grow without chemicals and bloomiferousness.

But whatever -- in the older modern roses you are correct that they could concentrate on fragrance more than plant health, and some breeders did just that. It's just when someone comes into those roses and says, btw, now I need this low maintenance, but I ALSO want that old fragrance that things get kinda absurd.

I would love, love, love it if one of my seedlings did everything on your list. Unfortunately, everything is never in one rose for me (or anyone else, it seems) -- it's always a question of making one of the attributes you discuss a priority and living with what you get on the other two or three.

    Bookmark   September 21, 2011 at 9:17PM
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serenasyh(was 5/now Z 8-Kans)

I had to giggle with this Kathy...My Gardenville smells like nice soy sauce! It smells fantastic for a fish emulsion/seaweed mix. So for Lumpy, lazy gardeners like myself it's indeed the perfect solution. And my compost is the decaying debris of herbs I cut down for the winter....Smells great, and I just cover up the entire mess in spring with brand new mulch! And I just loooove coffee grinds because they blend with the dark mulch and I can just fling them on top of the mulch and walk away.

Hmmm, I'm actually very optimistic. To me a resting period of 4-5 weeks is fantastic but not demanding. I never require any rose to act like a darn Knockout, haha! Some just happen to be continual bloomers like my Lincolns, VQ and Compassion. But I did not select them, thinking they would be continual bloomers. I expected the 4-5 week resting period of no blooms. I have two highly vulnerable HTs in my garden, Folklore and Aromatherapy. I do not want another Aromatherapy, but will not SP her due to her fragrance but I hope she will be my last BS magnet. Folklore is not a magnet, because it has so many fresh and vital leaves mixed in with the leopard spots. I gave Folklore as an example of the type of BS I'm willing to tolerate. The re-ability to refoliate is actually not chasing the Holy Grail, and my Lumpy roses are definitely not! the Holy Grail, haha, they are cheery and "cute" with their own lumpy charm with great fragrance and decent rebloom. Roses to me will always coexist with BS. You get great seasons but also seasons when the climate wreaks havoc. It is natural and is to be expected, but a healthy rose will keep replenishing. Vitality, good nutrients for a rose does its own magic. Bad leaves get shed, new ones grow. And three cheers for Army Camouflage--hiding naked legs with tall bushy plants like Russian sage and the herbs.

By the way, I noticed that many HT climbers (at least for me) have fantastic BS resistance. I've been very, very happy with them! I was puzzling over why HT climbers seem so vigorous and resilient with Jim1961. I thought hmmm, maybe because the roots are so large adds to that plant vigor??? who knows. It's one of the reasons why I am so addicted to climbers, lol!

    Bookmark   September 21, 2011 at 11:35PM
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kstrong(10 So Cal)

Oh and btw, we forgot to mention these potential breeding goals, besides fragrance, bloomiferousness, low maintenance/can grow everywhere without chemicals, so I take it none of these are important to you . . . HA!

(1) Must grow good on its own roots (most modern roses do not)
(2) Winter hardy
(3) Blooms put up with high temps and don't fry
(4) Self-cleaning (i.e. blooms, when finished, don't hang on the plant like used TP)
(5) Good vase life (which is sort of the opposite of #4).

Or . . . come to think of it, we also want all of those??

    Bookmark   September 22, 2011 at 10:18PM
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plantloverkat zone 9a north Houston(zone 9a)

I also grow Folklore, and two roses that do just as well for me are Valencia (not currently available from Vintage) and Baronne Edmond de Rothschild (which is more fragrant to my nose).

Two new ones for me this spring are Lemon Spice and Silver Star (the 1966 Kordes version that Vintage sells). Both bloomed in regular cycles this summer and had immaculate foliage while growing in partial shade. This summer was extra hot with almost no rain, so they did not face the same black spot pressure we would normally have here. Even so, they did have nicer foliage than some others. To my nose, Lemon Spice has a lot more fragrance.

Several years ago, Gregg suggested American Home as probably being more BS resistant for me (since his climate is so different he could only suggest, not know for a fact). I will be adding that one this year to try.

    Bookmark   September 22, 2011 at 10:40PM
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