Same Incident/Two Versions

housefulJuly 23, 2012

Chicago Tribune

Planned Parenthood of Illinois offered condolences Sunday to the family of a 24-year-old Chicago woman who died after having an abortion at one of its clinics.

Tonya Reaves died Friday after she began to bleed heavily, according to the Cook County medical examiner's office. Her death was ruled an accident. Authorities didn't say when she had the procedure.

The pregnancy and abortion, which she received at Planned Parenthood's clinic at 18 S. Michigan Ave. were listed as contributing factors in her death.

The victim's twin sister told WBBM-AM that her family is demanding answers.

"It happened so fast," said Toni Reaves. "She was just fine one day � and then the next day she was gone. We're just trying to figure out what happened."

Reaves' family declined to comment further Sunday.

In a statement, Planned Parenthood of Illinois President and CEO Carole Brite offered condolences.

"While legal abortion services in the United States have a very high safety record, a tragedy such as this is devastating to loved ones and we offer our deepest sympathies," Brite said. "Planned Parenthood of Illinois cares deeply about the health and safety of each and every patient."

Less than 0.3 percent of abortion patients experience complications that require hospitalization, according to the Guttmacher Institute, an abortion rights group that focuses on sexual and reproductive health research.

Illinois Review

CHICAGO - A CBS news affiliate in Chicago reported over the weekend that a 24 year old woman died Friday, July 20, 2012, following an abortion at the Planned Parenthood clinic located at 18 S. Michigan Ave. in Chicago, Illinois.

The woman, Tonya Reaves, was transported from the Loop Health Center Planned Parenthood abortion clinic to Northwestern Memorial Hospital, where she was pronounced dead at 11:20 P.M. .

An autopsy conducted Saturday determined that Reaves died from hemorrhage following a Dilation and Evacuation abortion. The D&E abortion method is one employed in pregnancies that have advanced beyond the first trimester. It involves opening the cervix and removing the pre-born baby by dismembering him or her. The Loop Health Center Planned Parenthood advertises aborting babies up to 18 weeks.

The Tribune reports Planned Parenthood issued a statement of condolence after the Cook County coroner ruled the death an accident. The Tribune did not publish the statement's contents and it is not available on their website.

"Abortion deaths like this are completely avoidable. When a woman bleeds to death after an abortion, it is usually an indication of error on the part of the abortionist coupled with a delay in calling for emergency assistance. Planned Parenthood should be held accountable," said Troy Newman, President of Operation Rescue and Pro-Life Nation. "Our heartfelt prayers go out to the victim's family at this time of tragic loss."

This incident follows a report published in the Chicago Tribune in June, 2011, that took to task abortionists in Illinois for failing to report abortion complications and exposed the fact that some abortionists did not report complications at all, in violation of the law. At that time, Illinois officials made no attempt to enforce abortion laws in that state.

While the name of the abortionist responsible for this patient death is currently unknown, Planned Parenthood's most recent 990 Tax Forms list abortionist Caroline M. Hoke as its Medical Director. Hoke is reported to be currently under investigation by the Illinois Department of Public Health for charging the state $3 million for services through Illinois Planned Parenthood facilities.

The abortion death took place in Obama's adopted hometown of Chicago at a time when his administration is working to preserve funding to Planned Parenthood through the federalized health care system.

"In light of this tragedy, which is yet another in a long list of Planned Parenthood abuses, we call on President Obama to immediately withdraw all Federal funding and personal support from Planned Parenthood," said Newman. "Friday's death is yet another reason why men and women of conscience across this nation cannot and will not comply with the forced funding of abortion and its intentional violation of religious liberties."

I bolded what I think is some very important information that was left out of the mainstream media's version. The sister of one of my high school friends died the same way. It was totally unavoidable.

Why do you think the msm left it out?

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david52 Zone 6

You mean why didn't the Chicago Tribune phone up Troy Newman, President of Operation Rescue and Pro-Life Nation, to get his take on the tragedy, and put it in their reporting?

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 2:15PM
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maggie2094

The first version appears to be a NEWS story that reports the coronors findings. Thee second piece appears to be an OPINION piece that usues conjecture as in in these cases "usually" and uses terms like abortionist instead of doctor and then ties in Obama. There is risk in surgery, elective or otherwise.. 1) News Story 2) Opinion Piece

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 2:22PM
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Circus Peanut

"Abortionist" is not an English word. Is that like an appendectomist or cardiac bypassist?

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 2:22PM
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chase_gw

How tragic, even worse that it should be used for political purposes.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 2:38PM
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esh_ga

If malpractice was involved it should be investigated like any other death related to a medical procedure.

Pure and simple. The fact that the medical procedure happens to have been an abortion is not relevant.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 2:45PM
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kingturtle(Zone 7 GA)

"Friday's death is yet another reason why men and women of conscience across this nation cannot and will not comply with the forced funding of abortion and its intentional violation of religious liberties."

What forced funding? There is no federal funding of abortions period. The claim of violation of religious liberties is just an attempt to conflate abortion with birth control provided under the Affordable Care Act.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 2:46PM
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dublinbay z6 (KS)

according to the Cook County medical examiner's office, her death was ruled an accident.

What else is there to say--the authorities ruled it "accidental"--no criminal liability there, no abuse, no negligence, no willful whatever . . .

Just a tragic accident. That's life--and our condolences go out to her family and loved ones.

Kate

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 2:53PM
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esh_ga

Medical procedures can cause death, what should we do - outlaw doctors?

Sun-Times Chairman James Tyree was suffering from cancer and pneumonia, but his death was the accidental result of a routine medical procedure, according to the Cook County medical examiner's office.

The circumstances of the widely admired executive's death left his family and friends stunned.

"It is just terrible that his life came to an end this way," said Richard Price, Tyree's longtime business partner and friend. "It makes it even more difficult to accept."

Tyree, 53, was diagnosed late last year with stomach cancer and had recently been admitted to the University of Chicago Medical Center with pneumonia, Price said. He died Wednesday from an air embolism following the removal of a dialysis catheter, the medical examiner's office reported.

An embolism isn't always fatal. But a person battling serious health problems involving the heart or lungs is at higher risk, said Dr. Robert M. Wachter, associate chairman of the department of medicine at the University of California at San Francisco Medical Center.

"It's a pretty rare event," said Wachter, a national expert on patient safety who could not speak specifically about Tyree's case. "There is a list of established techniques that relate to the positioning of the patient and the way that the catheter is removed that are considered best practices and decrease the chances of an air embolism."

But even catheter removals performed correctly can result in an embolism, Wachter said.

"Like a lot of medicine," he said, "sometimes bad stuff happens and we don't exactly understand why."

Here is a link that might be useful: source

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 2:54PM
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citywoman2012

houseful two versions is right.
I try to watch all the news channels to hear the way each
network unfailingly protrays a story with their own personal spin. They can slice, dice and mix.

Brian Williams comes as close as possible to being neutral.
Sometime he even falls short but I really like and respect him.

That case needs to be investigated for negligence for sure.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 2:59PM
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maddie_athome

Copying and pasting without crediting the source is a violation of copyright laws.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 3:00PM
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chase_gw

"That case needs to be investigated for negligence for sure."

I thought that one of the cornerstones of conservative views relative to the reformation of health care was to limit litigation?

Can someone explain to me why this incident makes the news while all the other incidents of patients dying as a result of, or after, a medical procedure doesn't? It sickens me that some seek to make a political point on this woman's death.

Abortionist....what a pejorative term., I think the correct title would by OBGYN.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 3:06PM
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david52 Zone 6

There are still 9 people in critical condition following the shooting spree in Aurora. That would be on top of the 12 who already died.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 3:24PM
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houseful

How tragic, even worse that it should be used for political purposes.

Yes, Chase and David! And BEFORE the shock even wore off, boy George was trying to connect Holmes to the Tea Party. I certainly wasn't trying to hide the fact that one was the source of the pro-life website. Both sides have an agenda, obviously. But the continued denial of the MSM bias is a problem.

The Chicago Tribune also neglects to point out that this was a second semester abortion. That's probably why emergency assistance wasn't called.

I just wonder if we will ever find out about this negligence. In my friend's case, the doctor was convicted of manslaughter and sentenced to 5 years. Turns out she was 26 weeks pregnant. The do believe he was responsible for another woman's death, but never charged. Money talks, baby!

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 3:40PM
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chase_gw

"And BEFORE the shock even wore off, boy George was trying to connect Holmes to the Tea Party.'

..and that relates to this ...how?

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 3:54PM
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esh_ga

"boy George"?

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 4:00PM
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kingturtle(Zone 7 GA)

I continue to read from right wing media that the federal Gov't is funding abortions - that is not just bias - it is a lie by the rightwing media and it continues to get repeated by politicians and their hacks.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 4:14PM
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dublinbay z6 (KS)

And those two versions are NOT examples of "both sides have an agenda."

As Maggie correctly pointed out, the first version does NOT take sides. It is a straight news story reporting the news that the authorities have declared it an accident.

The second story is inflammatory and politically biased--its language and approach meant to promote the "pro-life" viewpoint. It is an opinion piece, a propaganda piece, not a news story.

If you meant to be "balanced" and present "both sides," then you need to go find another version written from the "pro-choice" viewpoint. As it now stands, there is no pro-choice version included on this thread.

And I'm stunned at how naive you are. You really didn't know that these kinds of accidents happen a lot in connection with all kinds of medical procedures? Aren't you aware that any kind of surgery you undergo--no matter how simple or quick or common--includes a warning that something could go wrong? And these fairly common kinds of accidents are NOT due to any wrong-doing on the part of the doctors? That is why they are called "accidents."

You really didn't know that?

Or are you just looking for an excuse to be political and blame your political opponent for anything you can make up?

And by the way, you do not pay for any abortions at Planned Parenthood. None of your taxes are used for abortion services at Planned Parenthood. Quit spreading around the lie that you are being forced to pay tax money for abortions at Planned Parenthood. You are NOT.

Kate

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 4:28PM
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houseful

If PP receives federal funding, then the government indirectly is funding abortions.

Chase, ask David.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 4:29PM
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lily316(z5PA)

Yeah, how does connecting the shooter to the teaparty relate? Big stretch.. However shooter WAS a good Christian guy, and this IS a fact.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 4:32PM
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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

If PP receives federal funding, then the government indirectly is funding abortions.

Finances for family planning and other medical services are kept separate from abortion services. PP is subject to audits to guarantee that funding stays separate. iirc, PP has been audited numerous and found to be in compliance with federal law.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 4:37PM
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houseful

If I want an abortion from PP, do I have to pay for it?

The woman bled out! That's not an accident!

Why did the Tribune write this and then just write the most recent story with an, "well, these things happen" attitude?

Here is a link that might be useful: Chicago Tribune Exposes

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 4:45PM
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kacee2002

Here is a prime example of one huge problem with some people in society today. They read opinion pieces, as the second part of the OP, as news and attribute everything in it to fact instead of one persons opinion that usually aligns with their own.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 4:47PM
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kingturtle(Zone 7 GA)

If PP receives federal funding, then the government indirectly is funding abortions.

Bullsh*t. How many abortions do you expect to reduce by cutting the family planning and contraception services that help prevent unwanted pregnancies? It makes me wonder whether the ones who want to defund Planned Parenthood are clueless about cause and effect or are just MORE interested in cynical election politics than preventing abortions.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 4:47PM
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chase_gw

"If PP receives federal funding, then the government indirectly is funding abortions."

Patently untrue and the facts are out there to prove it but I know that's what you have been told and rather than question it you accept it.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 4:47PM
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esh_ga

Why did the Tribune write this and then just write the most recent story with an, "well, these things happen" attitude?

I think only the Chicago Tribune can answer that question.

And yes, if you get an abortion at PP you have to pay for it (or use your insurance) - you can easily google for that information.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 4:51PM
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david52 Zone 6

"If I want an abortion from PP, do I have to pay for it? "

Yes, and it will cost you about $500.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 4:56PM
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fouquieria(10b)

Here is a prime example of one huge problem with some people in society today. They read opinion pieces, as the second part of the OP, as news and attribute everything in it to fact instead of one persons opinion that usually aligns with their own.

Exactly.

-Ron-

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 5:21PM
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labrea_gw

I see a story about a woman who died & how the anti choice crowd sought to use it.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 5:22PM
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Circus Peanut

The Chicago Tribune also neglects to point out that this was a second semester abortion. That's probably why emergency assistance wasn't called.

That's an astonishingly questionable thing to assume. Where is it confirmed that the operation in question was a second-semester abortion? Why would that stop the family from calling emergency services - you're claiming that they love their daughter/sister/wife less because something was found wrong with her pregnancy that necessitated a later term abortion? It's a pretty offensive assumption about other people and hardly respectful to the family in their time of grief.

The woman bled out! That's not an accident!

So if not an accident, what do you think it was? An OBGYN gleefully rubbing their hands together and saying 'hey, let's botch this one up for the fun of it'? Get REAL, Houseful.

My uncle died on the operating table during heart surgery because the stent failed mid-operation. It's an unfortunate fact that when you cut open living human beings, sometimes they die. We all sign waivers to that effect prior to the operation.

It's because of folks who want to sue every doctor in the country for unavoidable statistical failures that we are all paying phenomenally high insurance rates to cover those malpractice suits.

In terms of Illinois and its apparently lousy system of medical record-keeping, I am underwhelmed by the sudden insistence on accountability, just because Houseful happened to read an opinion piece by a misogynist theocrat who shares her religious views. I agree with Kacee -- it's very worrisome indeed when people prove unable to distinguish opinion pieces from factual reportage.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 5:29PM
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vgkg(Z-7)

Several years ago I posted a report that 100,000 patients die every year in the US due to medical errors, not much response then. Whether it's a poorly trained abortionist or an incompetent dentist it all adds up to a hell of of lot of people. Saw in the news yesterday where a little girl died at the dentist after being put under for a tooth extraction.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 5:37PM
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houseful

I never denied it was an opinion piece. I already stated that. It is my opinion that she didn't have to die and something is amiss here. Why am I the only one that sees that.

If she had other health problems, as your uncle probably did, the I would understand this. But, I guess we can just chalk her up to collateral damage.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 5:38PM
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fouquieria(10b)

Why am I the only one that sees that.

You're not the only one that sees that.

I bolded what I think is some very important information that was left out of the mainstream media's version. The sister of one of my high school friends died the same way. It was totally unavoidable.

Why do you think the msm left it out?

Opinion?

Saw in the news yesterday where a little girl died at the dentist after being put under for a tooth extraction.

Now I'd like to read the 'news' version vs. the 'opinion' version of this piece. Oh that's right...there will probably never be an opinion version of this little girl's death.

-Ron-

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 5:46PM
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kacee2002

"Abortionist" is not an English word. Is that like an appendectomist or cardiac bypassist?

Exactly circuspeanut......exactly. Using a word to inflame.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 5:54PM
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kacee2002

It is like saying someone is "pro-abortion".In my 60+ years I have NEVER met anyone that is "pro-abortion"........... A term that is just meant to inflame the non thinking followers.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 5:59PM
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fouquieria(10b)

"Abortionist" is not an English word.

Yeah, and Obama is a muslin too.

-Ron-

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 5:59PM
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chase_gw

You are quite right perhaps she did not "need" to die and if there was some negligence then it should be dealt with but that is not for us to say, we don't know enough.

I am sure you feel just as strongly about the many, many more women who die, or their babies die, during childbirth as a result of poor or inadequate medical care. Many more than ever die as a result of a legally preformed abortion.

Anytime a person dies during, or as a result of, a legitimate medical procedure it needs to be examined. This one is not special in that sense.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 6:05PM
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epiphyticlvr

Using a word to inflame.

This whole thread including how houseful chose to introduce the topic and the subsequent misinformation is intended to inflame.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 6:08PM
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jerzeegirl(9)

I never denied it was an opinion piece. I already stated that. It is my opinion that she didn't have to die and something is amiss here. Why am I the only one that sees that.

Just take a look at your statement-"It's my opinion she didn't have to die." What would you know about her health or her medical history? How could you have an opinion when you know less than nothing about this woman?

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 6:14PM
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ohiomom

she didn't have to die

.....well I have read right here on HT that it is her fault for the bad choices and lack of personal responsibility. No one dragged her off the street into an abortion clinic, she CHOSE that, she also CHOSE not to use contraceptivess that are readily available in today's world, and she CHOSE to leave behind her one year old child without either parent since she was a single parent.

How do I know ... cause all you conservatives have told me so.

Next

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 6:29PM
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littleonefb(zone 5, MA)

I bolded what I think is some very important information that was left out of the mainstream media's version.

No, what you bolded has nothing to do with information missing from the medias reporting.

You bolded some "nut cases" opinion that you agree with, including lies. That is opinion houseful, not facts, and proper news reporting is reporting the facts, not opinions.

Opinions are left to the editorial pages of newspapers, op ed pages of newspapers and stated opinions presented by the media.

Proper news reporting is facts, facts, and more facts, which is exactly what the Chicago Tribune presented.

Your bolded info is opinion from someone that is trying to use this tragic incident for political fodder and attempt to stir up trouble.

That's all this character does and all that is expected from him, head of Operation Rescue and Pro Life Nation.

Operation Rescue is full of wackadoodle idiots. Believe me when I say, I've seen their tactics, experienced the aftermath of their insanity, and their attempts to sue an elderly woman who assaulted one of their wacked out supporters who was trying to prevent this elderly woman from entering a medical complex to see her dentist.
Inside the same medical complex was a women's health clinic who also performed abortions.
But these Operation Rescue idiots where going after anyone who was attempting to enter that building and doing anything they could physically and otherwise to stop them. Didn't matter the age of the person, the sex of the person, just had to stop them.
When one of these idiots grabbed onto this elderly woman's arm to prevent her from getting into the building, she swung her huge pocketbook at the person, who then proceeded to fall to the ground. Another Operation Rescue member wrestled this elderly woman to the ground, breaking her arm, chipping a tooth and bruising her in several areas.
An elderly woman, going to the dentist and this was the behavior encouraged by the organization that this wacked idiot you are quoting and supporting believed in.
Believed in until the courts upheld restrictions on what they could do, how they could assemble outside clinics. If that hadn't been done, the same tactics would be going on today.

Doesn't say much for you, houseful, when you start quoting the president of such organizations that spout nothing but lies and support violence when they can get away with it.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 6:30PM
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kingturtle(Zone 7 GA)

Any deaths during medical procedures are tragic, but the number of maternal deaths during abortion is actually a tiny fraction of the total maternal deaths giving birth and the total deaths during abortion before abortion was legal. According to the number of maternal deaths from legal abortions is single digit - in 2007, a total of 6 women died during legal abortions. At the same time, the rate of maternal death during childbirth in 2007 was 13 per 100,000 (about 600 total).

Before abortions were legal, the number of deaths of women getting an illegal abortion is estimated in the thousands annually.

Here is a link that might be useful: CDC statistics

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 6:42PM
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october17(5chgo)

When there are no orphans, no neglected kids, no kids murdered by parents, then we can talk about stopping abortions.

Houseful, what are your solutions to these problems?

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 6:54PM
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jillinnj

Did you know this woman houseful? I take it you did not. If that's the case how could you possibly make a statement about what happened? The medical examiner ruled it an accident but you know better? This post is disgusting. A woman died. A terrible tragedy for her family. But you don't care. It gives you something to stir the pot. Your posts have become disgraceful. You need to get ahold of yourself...or something.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 6:55PM
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don_socal

"Here is a prime example of one huge problem with some people in society today. They read opinion pieces, as the second part of the OP, as news and attribute everything in it to fact instead of one persons opinion that usually aligns with their own."

We have a bunch of these on here, hard to tell them apart.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 6:56PM
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elvis

Posted by houseful (My Page) on Mon, Jul 23, 12 at 14:09

"I bolded what I think is some very important information that was left out of the mainstream media's version... Why do you think the msm left it out?"

The question in the OP, above.

I think that either 1. the MSM reporter didn't have all the facts, or 2. the MSm reporter did have all the facts and chose not to report same, or 3. those ARE all the facts.

Maybe more will come out later. Until/unless more does come out, I can't say why one story has more info than the other. I don't like to rush to judgment, in any case.

I will say the majority of the reaction on this thread was just a bit of overkill.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 7:07PM
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kacee2002

Oh yes Don. Your picture illustrates one of my problems with Sen McCain in the 2008 election. He didn't not speak out loudly enough against people like the woman in the photo and didn't rein in Ms Palin when she started her rants and encouraged the wackos that showed up at her events. That was truly disgusting.I lost a lot of respect for him.I never had any for her.........
I have to say that it was in Sen McCains favor the other day that he Called out Ms Bachmann (another I have no respect for) on her statements on the senate floor, although not by name. He gained a little bit of my respect back by doing that.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 7:07PM
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ohiomom

Hint: one of these things is not like the other.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 7:29PM
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houseful

Okay, the Obama Muslim comparison is a nice deflection. However, if this PP is already under investigation, then yes, IMO, this woman did not have to die. And why isn't an abortion in the second trimester REQUIRED to be in a hospital setting that is better equipped for emergencies?

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 7:40PM
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elvis

Oh, for heaven's sake. It took what, around 40 posts to tell House just how wrong she was to bring up what she was thinking, and jerk some chains while she was at it? Big deal. I'll bet she "gets" it, and I doubt she'll come around to your way of thinking, so what's the point?

I'm going harvesting now. Like a gardener.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 7:40PM
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marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

OK!
The woman didn't have to die because the PP was already under investigation. Got it.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 9:20PM
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littleonefb(zone 5, MA)

I got it too, marshall, the woman shouldn't have died because PP was under investigation and that investigation had to do with billing.

Nothing to do with the physicians abilities, competence, just has to do with her billing for services through PP.

billing issues, potentially billing for services not rendered, now that equates to the cause of a woman's death.

OK. No I'm missing something, just not quite sure what.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 9:30PM
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bill_vincent(Central Maine)

"Abortionist" is not an English word.

Murderer is.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 9:37PM
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houseful

Bill, are you trying to stir the pot? ;-P

It's not an English word? I didn't even pay attention to the word until you brought it up. But we know how important creative wording is to the lefties with an agenda! So I looked it up and according to my Webster's 1997 dictionary, it is a word.

And from Dictionary.dom

World English Dictionary
abortionist (əˈb�"ːʃənɪst)

n
1. a person who performs abortions, esp illegally
2. a person who is in favour of abortion on demand

And here I thought liberals were the party of compassion! Should this second-term abortion have taken place in a hospital or not?

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 10:42PM
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marquest(z5 PA)

Murderer is.

Yep that is what you will be when you shoot and kill somebody but that is your right.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 10:43PM
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houseful

Marquest, it's only murder when the other party is innocent. I am positive anyone Bill might shoot would have tried to shoot or harm him first.

Mischaracterization. Another lefty tactic.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 10:46PM
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houseful

Simple billing issue? Riiiiiiiight!

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 10:50PM
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littleonefb(zone 5, MA)

Simple billing issue? Riiiiiiiight!

Yes, that's right. nothing more, nothing less. Except for your right wing, radical, lying Operation Rescue and Pro life Nation President claims.

Considering most people would not give him "the right time of day", let alone believe a word our of his mouth that he says,

Well, I'll go with the documented facts on this one and not with the extremists absurdities that you are presenting in an attempt to use and abuse the tragedy of a woman's death for political purposes.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 11:32PM
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marquest(z5 PA)

Marquest, it's only murder when the other party is innocent. I am positive anyone Bill might shoot would have tried to shoot or harm him first.

You answered your torn soul problem. I guess this is not Murder or an Abortionist. Since as you say if the dead did something to deserve to die the Murder is innocent.

Those women getting abortions that worries you so deserved to die.

Problem solved. You can sleep peacefully now.

    Bookmark   July 24, 2012 at 12:19AM
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marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

Why are you folks playing her game. Google ratings, dears.

    Bookmark   July 24, 2012 at 12:32AM
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lily316(z5PA)

Agree, Marshall. House exists for one reason ..to inflame. A giant waster of time.

    Bookmark   July 24, 2012 at 1:58AM
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houseful

IF that's the only reason I exist, then I deserve a raise for a job well-done! If you don't care about this, then don't enter the discussion.

So billing Medicaid $3M in one year and then admitting you will have to pay some of that back is a simple billing issue? I'll ask you Littleone, "what have you been smoking?"

Those women getting abortions that worries you so deserved to die.

Very good pretzel twist there, Marquest. Please be careful not to hurt yourself.

And one more thing, I don't have $500 nor do I have insurance, NOW how do I get an abortion?

    Bookmark   July 24, 2012 at 8:08AM
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ohiomom

Without cold cash you do not get one, and someone can enlighten me but I don't know if insurance pays for them.

The simple fact is if you do not want an abortion no one requires you to have one. It is a personal choice.

I thought this OP was about "media bias"

    Bookmark   July 24, 2012 at 8:14AM
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houseful

It was until KT brought up the federal funding issue. That got me questioning.

Without cold cash you do not get one,

I don't believe this for a second, especially in the light of the old, "if abortions were illegal, then only the rich women could get them" argument.

    Bookmark   July 24, 2012 at 8:29AM
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chase_gw

Somewhere in the back of mind I recall a discussion with regard to the use of federal funds for abortions and the point was made that Federal employees cadillac level health insurance, paid with taxpayer money, covers abortion.

Abortion, is a legal procedure and is covered under our universal health care which means poor women have equal access.

    Bookmark   July 24, 2012 at 8:31AM
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ohiomom

House I actually do understand that you and others are morally opposed to abortions ... and do not want any public funds paying for such.

I feel the same way about war, but I fear that we both will be SOL with what is done with our tax dollars.

Is your concern that the new affordable care act will cover them? I do not know, but I would guess that there will be an added clause forbidding this.

Again those of us that are opposed to death, whether through war, death penalty and/or abortion seem to have little say in how our tax dollars are used.

    Bookmark   July 24, 2012 at 8:40AM
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ninamarie(4Ont.)

Condolences to the family.
But I do wonder if conservatives on this forum have much experience reading or understanding media. Perhaps it's that continual problem some conservatives have understanding the difference between fact and opinion.

    Bookmark   July 24, 2012 at 8:45AM
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esh_ga

And one more thing, I don't have $500 nor do I have insurance, NOW how do I get an abortion?

I don't have any money and I want a steak dinner, how do I get one?

You don't always get something for free - but I sense you are trying to figure out how women get "free abortions" when they don't have money or insurance. Like having the government pay for it.

There ARE women that don't get abortions when they might want one because they don't have money. Women that end up smothering their baby when it is born because they couldn't deal it as an abortion.

    Bookmark   July 24, 2012 at 8:49AM
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marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

Or leave them in toilet stalls. Or in some jurisdictions dropping them off at the police station to be raised at State expense.

    Bookmark   July 24, 2012 at 9:00AM
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chase_gw

I suspect there is an underground network that supplies "cheap" abortions in less than stellar surroundings.

    Bookmark   July 24, 2012 at 9:06AM
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houseful

Those arguments are getting old, Ninamarie and Marshallz.

If opinion is never supposed to be part of a new story, then why do reporters talk to friends and neighbors after horrific situations like Aurora. Opinions are okay as long as it doesn't go against the MSM liberal agenda.

The left is so afraid that any abortion regulation means the end of Roe v Wade. Abortion will never be outlawed, but the MSM sugar-coating anything having to do with abortion does not help women like Tonya.

    Bookmark   July 24, 2012 at 9:18AM
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david52 Zone 6

If opinion is never supposed to be part of a new story, then why do reporters talk to friends and neighbors after horrific situations like Aurora. Opinions are okay as long as it doesn't go against the MSM liberal agenda.

The left is so afraid that any abortion regulation means the end of Roe v Wade. Abortion will never be outlawed, but the MSM sugar-coating anything having to do with abortion does not help women like Tonya.

If anyone thinks they can argue with that kind of logic, feel free to try.

    Bookmark   July 24, 2012 at 9:28AM
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chase_gw

Not me....

    Bookmark   July 24, 2012 at 9:29AM
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esh_ga

I don't see that the first article "sugar coated" the situation. That is my opinion. It presented what happened. Yes, it didn't mention every detail - perhaps it was respecting the privacy of the family in not going into the details.

Does it matter that the abortion was in the second trimester? Perhaps not mentioning that fact would actually make even first trimester abortion-seekers more cautious.

If the family wants to come out and provide more details in another article, they are welcome to do so. But providing the obviously biased view of the pro-life people that are NOT the family makes the second article highly biased. And yes, highly biased pieces get out there too. And they are welcome to do that, as long as we all recognize them as highly biased pieces.

    Bookmark   July 24, 2012 at 9:31AM
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houseful

If anyone thinks they can argue with that kind of logic, feel free to try.

But...you guys are the uber-educated, smart people. C'mon, David, give it a try.

    Bookmark   July 24, 2012 at 9:57AM
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dublinbay z6 (KS)

The government does not pay for abortions.

Insurance pays for abortion if you took out a policy that says it pays for abortion and the cost is included in your insurance payment. Otherwise it does not.

Under the new healthcare policy upcoming, you would have to ask for a special inclusion of abortion and pay for it as part of the insurance costs (as per above). Actually, this isn't a settled issue yet, but that is where the discussions were the last time I heard.

Most Planned Parenthoods do NOT provide any kind of abortion services. The main function of Planned Parenthood is birth control and related services having to do with sex and reproduction--screening for sexually transmitted diseases, cancer (uterine and breast) screening, etc. Of course, there are those religious groups out there that consider birth control to be another type of abortion and therefore consider birth control to be murder. If that is the case, then I guess those people would consider almost everything PP does as abortion related. For most people, however, birth control is NOT abortion, and the main services PP provides are birth control and sexually transmitted disease testing and cancer testing.

Only a few Planned Parenthoods provide abortion services. Those services are treated as a separate service and are billed separately from everything else--and PP is regularly audited to make sure they do that and that there was no "co-mingling" of funds having to do with all the other services.

If you can't pay for the abortion, you don't get one.

There are a few women's groups out there that, on their own, raise some money to "loan" to really poor women in dire circumstances when they need an abortion. However, that is not a regular source of funds that one could rely on, and most really poor women don't know about those groups anyway--so while they help out a little bit, they certainly do not cover the vast majority of poor women's needs. The simple fact is that as long as people like you insist that government money NOT be used (as in Medicaid), poor women are definitely second-class citizens in this country as far as health services go.

OK--are those all the FACTS you either didn't know or having been spreading lies about? Well, now you know the truth and don't need to spread lies about any of those things.

Your welcome.

Kate

    Bookmark   July 24, 2012 at 10:05AM
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jillinnj

If anyone thinks they can argue with that kind of logic, feel free to try.

Anyone else starting to wonder if houseful and citywoman are the same person? Or sisters? Their arguments and what they see as logic is just so similar (and absurd!).

    Bookmark   July 24, 2012 at 10:10AM
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dublinbay z6 (KS)

And in case you are misinformed on second-trimester abortions, here is the truth:

They are legal. There are no legal requirements that they be performed in hospitals--except in those places where "pro-lifers" have gone berserk and raised a stink and created an artificial crisis by insisting 2nd trimester abortions are so dangerous they must be performed in hospitals. That is a lie! Second trimester abortions are not any more dangerous, and certainly are safer as far as the woman's health goes than delivering a full-term baby would be.

That's a big "pro-life" strategy nowadays--claim how dangerous abortion is so we need to regulate to the point that only rich women can afford it anymore--all sorts of medical/hospital requirements being placed on it, even though every single recognized medical/health organization (like the AMA, etc.) has stated that abortion is not a particular dangerous procedure and all those medical/health requirements pushed by the "pro-lifers" are political rather than good medicine.

And Bill, as far as the U.S. Constitution is concerned, a doctor performing an abortion is NOT a murderer. Interesting what a constitutional fella you are--except when it comes to abortion. Suddenly, constitutional protections mean nothing to you.

Kate

    Bookmark   July 24, 2012 at 10:16AM
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marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

Just sayin'...

the ubersmart like David don't try to argue with the illogical. Why? A total waste of time.

Yeah, I sometimes wonder about trollish sock puppets.

    Bookmark   July 24, 2012 at 10:23AM
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littleonefb(zone 5, MA)

Anyone else starting to wonder if houseful and citywoman are the same person? Or sisters? Their arguments and what they see as logic is just so similar (and absurd!).

The 2 are just the typical right wing conservative "thinkers" and I use that "thinkers" extremely loosely, as I have yet to see or hear one of those right wing conservatives actually think about what they are saying before they say it, have any independent thought about a subject, or just think for themselves.

It's always the spewing out of the "talking points" and in the case of citywoman and houseful, well, they are just the typical "foot soldiers" of the right wing conservative, spouting out the rhetoric and nothing more.

And Bill, as far as the U.S. Constitution is concerned, a doctor performing an abortion is NOT a murderer. Interesting what a constitutional fella you are--except when it comes to abortion. Suddenly, constitutional protections mean nothing to you.

Kate, this subject has nothing to do with the, so called, "right to bear arms" garbage.

when it comes to the "right to bear arms" stuff, then Bill is the self proclaimed expert.

Of course there are many that also believe that the right to bear arms no longer applies, because

That militia that is so well talked about, well, it became over the years, the National Guard, and if the militia really doesn't exist any more, because it is now the National Guard, then the public no longer has that right.

Ah but I have digressed from the OP.

And again on the subject of the OP, housful has some serious comprehension problems, as many of us are aware of.

She just can't understand the difference between fact and fiction and she is not able to understand the difference between the following

If opinion is never supposed to be part of a new story, then why do reporters talk to friends and neighbors after horrific situations like Aurora.

Geez, houseful, this is not opinion gathering in any sense of the word, this is called "human interest", or "learning more about the victims of the horror in Aurora" or "learning more about how the residents of Aurora are coping with what happened.
It isn't opinion.

Opinions are okay as long as it doesn't go against the MSM liberal agenda.

Only you make this kind of claim, but then again, it has to do with your lack of reading comprehension skills.

If you had them, then you would not be making the claims that you are making.

    Bookmark   July 24, 2012 at 10:39AM
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demifloyd(8)

Posted by jillinnj (My Page) on
Tue, Jul 24, 12 at 10:10

If anyone thinks they can argue with that kind of logic, feel free to try.

Anyone else starting to wonder if houseful and citywoman are the same person? Or sisters? Their arguments and what they see as logic is just so similar (and absurd!).

*

And there you go again, Jill.

Just ONE MORE illustration of a post that is nothing but stirring the pot with speculation, a snide insult specifically directed by name at two posters on this forum, citywoman and houseful.

Hateful comments and insults aside, this place has become junior high school.

    Bookmark   July 24, 2012 at 11:15AM
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jillinnj

Just ONE MORE illustration of a post that is nothing but stirring the pot

Ha! And what exactly do you think the entire point of the original post was?

    Bookmark   July 24, 2012 at 11:28AM
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demifloyd(8)

The original post was a hot topic and is no different than the numerous posts started by forum members of any political persuasion, jillinnj.

Do you not think posts started daily about conservatives and Romney and Bush and such is not "stirring the pot?" And much more than this one, for sure.

Additionally, the original poster did not pose the query suggesting that two forum members were posing as one member (isn't that against the rules? If it is, you are suggesting that houseful and citywoman are violating gardenweb rules in your post) and the original poster did not accuse posters of "absurd" logic.

You did both of those, and have the gall to suggest other people cause problems.

    Bookmark   July 24, 2012 at 11:36AM
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ohiomom

One observation I would like to make and then I am done ... personally I do not see the mega corporation media as being liberal and/or conservative, what I do see is that they have an agenda of setting "we the people" against each other while Nero fiddles and Rome burns.

    Bookmark   July 24, 2012 at 11:46AM
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esh_ga

Often the thoughtful responses to posts are ignored and even the OP him/herself just responds to the ones that flame him/her.

If there were more ignoring of those and more attention to ones that truly try to move the discussion forward then perhaps the overall tone of the forum would improve. As it is now, people are equally guilty about that which they protest.

    Bookmark   July 24, 2012 at 11:47AM
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dublinbay z6 (KS)

The problem on a forum like this is that when really ignorant or lying statements are ignored (as in, I am above this sort of thing), the ignorant/lying one believes he/she has "won" the argument by shutting up everyone else.

I'm often torn between answering a truly egregious post or just turning my back and leaving the forum for the day. Lately, I've been detouring more over to the Rose Forum--but I still hate to leave some of these really ignorant/lying comments just sitting there unrefuted--for the sake of other posters who may be misled otherwise. Fortunately for me, enough people stay online and respond quite capably so that I don't really have to worry about ignorant/lying statements hanging there like universal truths--when they are NOT!

Kate : )

    Bookmark   July 24, 2012 at 12:01PM
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Circus Peanut

"There are no legal requirements that they be performed in hospitals--except in those places where "pro-lifers" have gone berserk and raised a stink and created an artificial crisis by insisting 2nd trimester abortions are so dangerous they must be performed in hospitals. "

And, Kate, the strategic tactic behind this becomes clear when you see where it leads, for instance in Mississippi, where abortion is made a "hospital procedure", hospitals deny admitting privileges to OBGYNs, and the surgery is made de facto impossible.

Here is a link that might be useful: Regulation stayed that would have shut down last abortion clinic in MI

    Bookmark   July 24, 2012 at 12:10PM
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citywoman2012

houseful.you remembered what our mom always told us...
keep your cool under fire.

Good girl!

    Bookmark   July 24, 2012 at 2:07PM
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lightlystarched

With regard to poor women affording abortions, in my experience some women are charged on a sliding scale according to their ability to pay. There are donors to Planned Parenthood who specifically say their donations may be used for abortions. Now, my information in this regard is 20 years old, but I am grateful for those donors.

    Bookmark   July 24, 2012 at 2:39PM
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epiphyticlvr

There are donors to Planned Parenthood who specifically say their donations may be used for abortions.

Your information is still correct. One can designate their donation to be used for specific purposes including helping women who otherwise could not afford to pay. It is called designated giving and many organizations offer this option to donors.

    Bookmark   July 24, 2012 at 2:55PM
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labrea_gw

Oh that's good to know I think that's what I want for my birthday donation in the name of the Hot Topics Forum!

    Bookmark   July 24, 2012 at 3:44PM
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epiphyticlvr

Or you can make a donation in someone's honor and the they will be notified by the organization.

Imagine how some would react when they are informed that a donation to PP was made in their name.

    Bookmark   July 24, 2012 at 7:40PM
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marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

That has happened and has caused some family rifts.

    Bookmark   July 24, 2012 at 8:25PM
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esh_ga

I donated in 2008 in the name of Sarah Palin.

    Bookmark   July 24, 2012 at 8:38PM
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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Are you serious, esh-ga? (teehee)

Thank you for reminding me about the designated gifts and sliding scale fees for poor women. Don't know why I forgot about that, but you are certainly correct.

However, there is no government money (your taxes) funding those abortions, so please quit complaining about it.

Kate

    Bookmark   July 24, 2012 at 9:30PM
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lily316(z5PA)

I know a few people I'd like as designated gifts for my donation to PP's abortion services...lol

    Bookmark   July 25, 2012 at 2:10AM
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citywoman2012

Not funny.

    Bookmark   July 25, 2012 at 3:34PM
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marquest(z5 PA)

Not funny

CW yes it was. It is like your capital punishment feelings.....it was feelings.

    Bookmark   July 25, 2012 at 3:42PM
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elvis

Well, what is funny is very subjective, isn't it? Maybe City was being kind. I find lily's remark in very poor taste, but maybe that's just me.

    Bookmark   July 25, 2012 at 7:37PM
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epiphyticlvr

Thank you for reminding me about the designated gifts and sliding scale fees for poor women.

You can add Foundation $ to the list Kate - public and private.

However, there is no government money (your taxes) funding those abortions, so please quit complaining about it.

Good luck with that. No matter how many times that fact is repeated some still choose to ignore it.

    Bookmark   July 25, 2012 at 8:46PM
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citywoman2012

I think the reason people tend to not believe that govn monies are not paying for
abortions is because of all the fraud within the system.

If Drs'. office, hospitals, medical supply cos, nursing
homes etc can fraud $trillions from the govn then
how easy it would be for PP to shuffle paper work
and accomplish the means to an end.

Even the GOVN steals from the govn!

I would never be naive enough to say never .
Thats like vouching for a stranger and giving a stranger
a good reference.

And no, I can't prove it, I don't have access to the records but why should PP
be any more honest than any other medical facility thats getting
millions from the govn.

I think PP does some good work but they are in it for the money...don't think they are not.

    Bookmark   July 25, 2012 at 10:08PM
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marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

The Narrative cannot be altered. The changes are always suspeciously liberal.

    Bookmark   July 25, 2012 at 10:09PM
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marquest(z5 PA)

CW you cannot prove it the Republican Congress could not prove it and they tried like their life depended on proving the allegation.

So at this point all anyone can say is you will believe what you want to believe because you have to believe. That is not a problem the people that care about the health of women will continue to donate and assist where we can.

It is PP's good fortune that you and others with your belief has helped PP receive more donations that they can use for abortion. When Komen dropped them PP received more donations than they had received in years. All of Komen's funding has to go toward breast cancer care, screenings and referrals. Not the donations unless specified.

So I guess we should thank you and the Republican Congress for your belief. Keep up the good work of helping PP and the women of America that need health care.

2/12
Planned Parenthood has raised nearly one million dollars in the past several days -- including a $250,000 donation from New York City Mayor Mike Bloomberg -- due to an outpouring of public support. The amount would have been more than enough to make up for the $600,000 Komen donates to Planned Parenthood each year. All of that funding goes toward breast cancer care, screenings and referrals.

Here is a link that might be useful: Susan G. Komen

    Bookmark   July 25, 2012 at 11:28PM
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littleonefb(zone 5, MA)

Round and round and round we go and it will keep going round and round with people like citywoman, houseful and those that believe as they do because there is nothing anyone can say to them that they will believe except the lies, the absurdities, the GOP/Teaparty lies.

The mind set of those that believe the mantra of the GOP/TeaParty is "just because we can't prove it is true, doesn't mean it isn't"

There is no way to reason with someone that thinks this way, no way to get the truth to them and have them believe the truth;

just look at the post from Citywoman2012. such absurdities, such full fledged mantra of the GOP spewing forth.

It's so pathetic, one doesn't know whether to laugh or cry or do both.

    Bookmark   July 25, 2012 at 11:44PM
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marquest(z5 PA)

littleonefb, you sound frustrated. It really is not necessary. You see what happens when the fantasy lands in their heads. PP received more than they would have received if they had told the truth and not tried to harm a place that is doing good for people that need help. Things worked out better for PP.

When your actions and thoughts are not for the good........

    Bookmark   July 26, 2012 at 12:56AM
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lily316(z5PA)

I am SO loving it that PP is getting so many donations since the wingnuts took over. I sent my contribution in after the Susan Komen debacle.

    Bookmark   July 26, 2012 at 2:04AM
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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Well, I'm grateful we brought up this subject. I had honestly forgotten about private donations designated for abortions, and what is really odd about that is that as a result of this most recent attempt to defund PP, I myself wrote a check to my closest PP and designated it for abortions. First time I ever did that. I will probably now do it annually. But so odd that I then forgot all about it. Must be one of those "senior moments," do you think? LOL

CW--PP is subjected to official government audits every year to make sure there is no co-mingling of funds. There is no way they could hide it if they were. In addition, PP is very concerned about maintaining its integrity and doing everything to obey the law. They have never been some kind of shady organization trying to sneak around the law. Don't know why you would think they were--other than your desire to think poorly of any group you don't agree with politically.

Kate

    Bookmark   July 26, 2012 at 3:59AM
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esh_ga

Yes, that reminds me I should donate to them again - haven't done it since the Susan G. Komen affair. I'm going to go do that right now.

    Bookmark   July 26, 2012 at 7:20AM
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chase_gw

"And no, I can't prove it, I don't have access to the records but why should PP "

No but the Republican House does and if there was any cross use of the funds they most certainly would have found it! Heaven knows they have tried!

But the others are right you have decided that you know information that audit after audit and investigation after investigation could not find and nothing will ever make you see otherwise.

    Bookmark   July 26, 2012 at 7:32AM
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esh_ga

It has been stated before (with figures from PP) that abortion services is a small percentage of all the PP does (some clinics don't even perform abortions). Like 3%. Most of what they do is not abortion related - it is birth control, pap smears, counseling, breast exams, education ....

If abortion expenses are less than 5% (and some women that get abortions use their own insurance), it is not hard to derive that government funding can be channeled exclusively to the other 95%. It's just pure math.

    Bookmark   July 26, 2012 at 7:47AM
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marquest(z5 PA)

But the others are right you have decided that you know information that audit after audit and investigation after investigation could not find and nothing will ever make you see otherwise.

BIGOT
"You can tell a bigot, but you can't tell him much."

    Bookmark   July 26, 2012 at 8:18AM
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marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

marquest: LOLOL

    Bookmark   July 26, 2012 at 10:33AM
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dockside_gw

But the others are right you have decided that you know information that audit after audit and investigation after investigation could not find and nothing will ever make you see otherwise.

This is no different than a woman who called Stephanie Miller on the radio in 2007 and said that she believed there were WMDs in Iraq (her DH was serving there so maybe she had to justify it, somehow) even after Miller told her that President Bush had said there were no WMDs there. The caller's response? "Well, I believe there were." Who cares if the president, who started that war on the basis of WMDs being present in Iraq, later admits there were none. She believes what she wants to believe and NOTHING, especially facts, will make her (or CW) change her mind .

    Bookmark   July 26, 2012 at 1:46PM
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citywoman2012

marquest....I can't imagine why you would post that you are a bigot at the bottom of your post.

I would never think of you as a bigot.
That is someone that is utterly intolerant of any differing opinion and I haven't found you to that extreme.

That you differ with me yes....but not that you are a bigot.
Don't be so hard on yourself.

    Bookmark   July 26, 2012 at 2:32PM
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littleonefb(zone 5, MA)

You are kidding with that comment, aren't you CW? If not, it's just further proof that you have some serious issues with reading comprehension.

Maybe a short course in reading comprehension would be helpful to improve your reading comprehension skills.

    Bookmark   July 26, 2012 at 2:40PM
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citywoman2012

marquest...you can try to explain to litone,
if you choose, the deed of Reverse Psychology(deserving of capitals).

I bow to your discretion.

    Bookmark   July 26, 2012 at 2:56PM
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marquest(z5 PA)

marquest...you can try to explain to litone,
if you choose, the deed of Reverse Psychology(deserving of capitals).

No reverse just truth. Follow the dollar donations if you do not believe. Oh I forgot you are unable to face the truth. Thank you and the women thank you.

    Bookmark   July 26, 2012 at 3:58PM
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citywoman2012

your welcome

    Bookmark   July 26, 2012 at 4:19PM
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