Another Columbine area gun massacre, Part 2

woodnymph2_gwJuly 21, 2012

I was unable to post yesterday. I do agree that the problem is American's love affair with guns and violence, in general. So Bill, with all due respect, you and I must agree to disagree.

I applauded when I heard Mayor Bloomburg plans to ask the President what he plans to do to address out of control gun violence in this nation. This should be a campaign issue.

I know people like to dress up in costumes. I do myself. But it made me stop and think about how this practice can be dangerous, particularly in crowds. Some of the victims saw the flak jacket, etc. and thought he was part of a swat team. I would hate to ban Mardi Gras, but it gives me pause to think of so many masked people in large crowds.

I have not had time yet to read all the posts on the other thread, but I wanted to put in my 2 cents worth and say that I agree with Heri. America badly needs to change its culture, but I don't see it happening with the huge, powerful NRA lobby.

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jodik_gw

NRA lobby or not, gun violence is not going away. And the wider the gap grows between the have's and have not's, the more broken and detached our society becomes, the more violence you're more likely to see.

Do you think the drug cartels and gangs that have infiltrated our nation care about laws OR the NRA? What about the persons who feel they've reached their limit, gotten to the edge, have nothing left to live for? No. They don't even care about human life.

Gun violence is bigger than America, bigger than one incident, much bigger than most people can imagine. Most of us only know about what we see on tv, or in the news we read, or in our own neighborhoods. But we aren't connecting it to our widening social gaps, and all the other variables that are a part of it.

Banning guns won't stop it. Laws mean nothing to those without ethics, integrity, or morals. And good luck with that changing of attitudes or culture.

In order to affect any change in a positive manner, we have to reassemble our society in such a way that violence becomes unnecessary or unwanted... I just have no idea how to go about that on the grand scale needed.

In the course of writing this post, I wonder how many people were shot?

    Bookmark   July 21, 2012 at 2:57PM
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bill_vincent(Central Maine)

Lets look at this from a different angle. Someone posted this link on Facebook, nd when I first saw it, I thought to myself, no way. But here's a quick snip. This article will make you think:

Question: How does an unemployed medical student afford $20,000 in weapons gear?
If you start to look at the really big picture here, the obvious question arises: How does an unemployed medical student afford all the complex weapons gear, bomb-making gear, "flammable" booby trap devices, ammunition, multiple magazines, bullet-proof vest, groin protection, ballistic helmet, SWAT uniform and all the rest of it?

A decent AR-15 rifle costs $1,000 or more all by itself. The shotgun and handgun might run another $800 total. Spare mags, sights, slings, and so on will run you at least another $1,000 across three firearms. The bullet-proof vest is easily another $800, and the cost of the bomb-making gear is anybody's guess. With all the specialty body gear, ammunition, booby-trap devices and more, I'm guessing this is at least $20,000 in weapons and tactical gear, much of which is very difficult for civilians to get in the first place.

Here is a link that might be useful: Who was behind this kid?

    Bookmark   July 21, 2012 at 2:59PM
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marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

I thought about the same odd question: How does a unemployed graduate student afford the time and cost of amassing such gear in a few months said to have been used to accumulate the arsenal? Then the question of him acting alone.

The culture sucks along with this obsession on guns and violence as highlighted by the "entertainment" industry. Another anti-hero is made, soon to be brought to your screen or hand-held.

    Bookmark   July 21, 2012 at 3:05PM
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woodnymph2_gw

Bill, that's an interesting point of view. Thanks for posting. I,myself, wondered how he alone could have afforded all that fancy stuff. It's just that the UN is now being blamed for almost everything that goes wrong on the planet, it seems. It's an easy scapegoat, the "New World Order" and all that....

    Bookmark   July 21, 2012 at 3:05PM
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bill_vincent(Central Maine)

Read the article. That's only ONE of the points it raises.

    Bookmark   July 21, 2012 at 3:12PM
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marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

Ok,I read the article AGAIN, and I had already read the piece in Lew Rockwell's site warning of the impending confiscation of personal weapons following a UN Treaty vote on the subject. A heated subject among libertarians for years now.

That's more important than our culture of violence, glorification of violence, idolty for violent heroes?

    Bookmark   July 21, 2012 at 3:21PM
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bill_vincent(Central Maine)

I have to admit-- the first thing that jumped to my mind reading that article was "Fast n Furious". That's a helluva stretch, though, even for Holder. And on that note, I'm headed to a puppy mill protest. (get a mental picture of THAT one!)

Here is a link that might be useful: My afternoon

    Bookmark   July 21, 2012 at 3:21PM
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woodnymph2_gw

Marshall, could you post the Lew Rockwell piece? I'd like to read it. A friend who is very right wing conservative recently went on a rant about "Article 21", when U.S. private properties will be taken over, etc. if the UN has its way.

    Bookmark   July 21, 2012 at 3:26PM
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lily316(z5PA)

I wondered that too although his family had money. It needs to be investigated.

I don't think anyone in the theater who was armed would have been able to do anything. It was pitch black and an armed person would probably have killed or wounded others trying to kill the murderer. Besides he was wearing a bullet proof vest, groin proof protection ,as well as bullet proof helmet. Why didn't any flags go up when he bought all this stuff?

Just lucky tenants in his building didn't open the unlocked door to shut the loud music off because then the whole building would have gone up killing many more. But I wonder why he told the police it was booby trapped if he wanted to kill people? And I wonder why he didn't try to get away. I hope his parents face up to the fact that they should have done more like have him committed. I doubt if there was a mass shooting and the police called me, I would have automatically assumed the killer was my son. Weird, and she was a mental health nurse.

    Bookmark   July 21, 2012 at 3:29PM
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marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

Here you are, woodnymph:

Here is a link that might be useful: UN Arms Transfer Treaty (ATT) on Small Arms: Gun Grab Gradualism

    Bookmark   July 21, 2012 at 3:34PM
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ingrid_vc(Z10 SoCal)

I'm sorry to say that when I got to the part about the FBI being behind all this and the overall reasoning for the attack, my mind refused to go there. This is the biggest attack on innocent civilians by a lone gunman and this has morphed into it being the doings of the FBI? I'm not overly fond of that institution, but can you imagine the firestorm that would ensue if this were found out to be true, as inevitably would happen if it were? They haven't even recovered from Waco yet. They just are not quite that stupid, and what would be their reason? We don't know what kind of funding this man was getting from his parents, who live in an upper-middle class neighborhood in my area. I think it will take some time to find out what really went on and why.

    Bookmark   July 21, 2012 at 3:38PM
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marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

The conspiracy goes deeper, apparently. Woodnymph, this is another leg of the conspiracy to control the world:

"Who Really Runs the World? Conspiracies, Hidden Agendas and the Plan for World Government"

American politics is just a circus and not in the central ring either.

Here is a link that might be useful: Who Really Runs the World? Conspiracies, Hidden Agendas and the Plan for World Government

    Bookmark   July 21, 2012 at 3:44PM
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thegreatcob

gun have nothing to do with NRA culture since NRA members don't commit crimes more then any other group.

You want stop violence the only cure is kill ever living thing since nature is based on violence survival of fittest.

mass killing are global phenomena there been over 500 in last 150 years spread evenly over all continents.

    Bookmark   July 21, 2012 at 3:47PM
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woodnymph2_gw

Thanks for posting these, Marshall. Much more to it all than I realized.

    Bookmark   July 21, 2012 at 3:51PM
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ingrid_vc(Z10 SoCal)

Bill, kudos to you for protesting the puppy mills. I try to give a much money as I can to animal welfare agencies who are in the frontline of fighting for the rights of those who cannot speak. (On the other hand, I must admit I'm still cringing about your mention of shooting coyotes. They keep down the rodent population and have had to take the place of larger predators that have been killed off. I know, they kill pets but I've had pets for many years in coyote country and they died and/or will die of old age. All it takes is a little bit of care.)

    Bookmark   July 21, 2012 at 3:54PM
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marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

You are welcome, woodnymph.

So cob, what's in your arsenal?

    Bookmark   July 21, 2012 at 3:55PM
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nine7xbam

Flags didn't go up with Holmes wearing all that gear because he came in through an exit door to that particular theater and not the main entrance . I imagine one way to do it would be to be to go to the last showing in that theater of the previous movie then be the last one to leave though that exit door stopping to duct tape the latch back and I'm just guessing-there are probably other ways to do it .Bloomberg is an idiot if he thinks the president taking a strong anti-gun stance before an election will ever happen . He is just shooting off his mouth to promote himself like any other slimy politician !

    Bookmark   July 21, 2012 at 4:03PM
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jodik_gw

And what have I been saying for quite a while, now? It's the money changers... no "conspiracy theory mentality" involved. If anyone thinks those in power won't go to any lengths to obtain that which they want, they'd be mistaken.

There's no unwarranted paranoia in an already sinister world.

Funny how the only mention of the common folk involves eugenics...

    Bookmark   July 21, 2012 at 4:15PM
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maggie2094

JUMPED

THE

SHARK

Batshit and self indulgent...leaping lizards what a joke.

    Bookmark   July 21, 2012 at 4:27PM
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marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

I can't wait to read the text to follow that tag line (or 4)

    Bookmark   July 21, 2012 at 4:49PM
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jerzeegirl(9)

These conspiracy theories are offensive to those who lost their lives and I find them upsetting.

Why couldn't this "kid" have just put all his purchases on his credit card. He probably figured he wasn't going to have to pay it back anyway since I am sure he thought he would die.

He is a Phd student in neuroscience so you have to figure that he was smart and perhaps got a lot of his chemicals from the school's lab. There is probably some web site somewhere that gives explicit instructions on how to booby trap an apartment and he could have just followed instructions.

I am wondering if Holmes knew that he was mentally ill and chose his field because he was hoping to discover some kind of cure for his illness. Wasn't there an army psychiatrist who also went nuts and massacred a group of soldiers about five years ago? Mental health professionals and neuroscientists are clearly not exempt from mental illness themselves.

    Bookmark   July 21, 2012 at 4:51PM
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thegreatcob

marshallz10 only an idiot would post online where,what type if any weapons they own online.

    Bookmark   July 21, 2012 at 5:59PM
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marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

Just as I thought

    Bookmark   July 21, 2012 at 6:09PM
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thegreatcob

care to enlighten us marshal

    Bookmark   July 21, 2012 at 6:20PM
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lily316(z5PA)

JZ..As I was walking I thought the same thing. The kid maxed out his credit cards. What does it matter? He knew he'd be in prison so...

    Bookmark   July 21, 2012 at 6:41PM
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seashellsandpearls

>> This article will make you think:

That you are even more paranoid and delusional than we knew.

Sea

    Bookmark   July 21, 2012 at 6:51PM
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david52_gw

Well, it didn't take too long to politicize the tragedy, see link. Stumbled across this one as well, referring to last weeks' Colorado need for Federal Help....

Here is a link that might be useful: John Boehner Praises Colorado First Responders while Cutting Their Budget

    Bookmark   July 21, 2012 at 6:55PM
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marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

What happened to my response to the cob?

    Bookmark   July 21, 2012 at 7:10PM
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bill_vincent(Central Maine)

This is the biggest attack on innocent civilians by a lone gunman and this has morphed into it being the doings of the FBI?

Ingrid, that was my first reaction, too. But think about it. How many "civilians" (albeit Mexican civilians) do you think were killed by Fast n Furious guns? Alot more than the 70 that were WOUNDED, much less the 12 that were killed. I don't know about the FBU specifically, but I put NOTHING past the DOJ and Eric Holder.

Why couldn't this "kid" have just put all his purchases on his credit card.

because, JG, several of the items he had, you can't even find in surplus stores. Hell, until just recently, it was illegal to OWN a bulletproof vest. As fas as I know, it's STILL illegal, or at best, extremely difficuylt to get ahold of a ballistic helmet, as well as the rest of the gear.

I must admit I'm still cringing about your mention of shooting coyotes. They keep down the rodent population and have had to take the place of larger predators that have been killed off. I know, they kill pets but I've had pets for many years in coyote country and they died and/or will die of old age.

Ingrid-- a little off topic, but it's so bad here now, that when I take Lukas out for his final nature call at night, I bring a rifle out. I've already had coyotes in my yard a 1/2 dozen times. I'm not about to lose my dog. Without the smell of the gun in the air, even my presence wouldn't be enough to keep them away from Lukas. Not about to take that chance. As for the rifle I bought years ago for it (long since sold), that was back when up here in Maine there was a bounty on them because they were destroying livestocks. I was a kid into hunting, and loved the idea of getting paid for it (100.00 a head). I could legally make a weeks paycheck (at that time) in a single day's hunting. Additionally, Both me and my brother in law had toddlers at the time that loved playing in the back yard, and we didn't like the idea of having to sit there and stand guard while they played.

That you are even more paranoid and delusional than we knew

And then I'M the one who's insulting. Go back and play another game of shuffleboard. If you can remember where the court is.

    Bookmark   July 21, 2012 at 7:37PM
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david52_gw

Local news is reporting that he ordered all this stuff - explosives, guns, ammo, vest, etc. on-line, and legally, and had it delivered to both his apartment address and his work address at the school.

    Bookmark   July 21, 2012 at 9:11PM
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chase_gw

Is it going to take another 9/11 for you all to come together, to love each other and your country....what will it take for you to have respect for each other and your differing opinions.....the very stuff you all say is America.

Doesn't seem that way me, it seems you have little tolerance and less understanding for each other than you all like to crow about.

    Bookmark   July 21, 2012 at 9:30PM
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david52_gw

Well, I was in Children's Hospital in Aurora the next morning, watching all the people giving blood for the wounded kids. It does kinda create a lasting impression.

    Bookmark   July 21, 2012 at 9:39PM
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chase_gw

My point exactly David. It takes this type of horrific event to bring people together....for awhile

    Bookmark   July 21, 2012 at 9:45PM
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bill_vincent(Central Maine)

what will it take for you to have respect for each other and your differing opinions

now that's the million dollar question. The answer starts with getting rid of all those who seem to think they need to drive wedges between us and get us fightin between ourselves.

    Bookmark   July 21, 2012 at 10:22PM
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marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

Bye Bye, Republicrats and special interest groups and their funds and foundations. And of course the lapdog media.

    Bookmark   July 21, 2012 at 10:36PM
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bill_vincent(Central Maine)

yep and yep

    Bookmark   July 21, 2012 at 10:46PM
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bill_vincent(Central Maine)

Local news is reporting that he ordered all this stuff - explosives, guns, ammo, vest, etc. on-line, and legally, and had it delivered to both his apartment address and his work address at the school.

David, I just copied and pasted your post back to the place where the guy posted that link in the first place, and he made a good point. Not sure if it's just a flub on the reporter's part or what, but guns can NOT be ordered over the internet. it's against federal law. Even if he finds a gun on line, it's got to be transfered to a local person with an FFL and then the sale is made locally.

    Bookmark   July 21, 2012 at 10:50PM
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david52_gw

Thats what I thought as well. I'm just repeating what the local press is saying - who have not exactly distinguished themselves, yet again. Its possible he ordered them and just picked them up at a gun store.

Anyway, if someone did want to buy a gun online, at the link is a description of a web site that will allow one to do so.

Here is a link that might be useful: link

    Bookmark   July 21, 2012 at 11:15PM
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bill_vincent(Central Maine)

Something's not right with that site. You know the saying Anything too good to be true (from a gunner's point of view) usually is? Just one quick example-- if you scroll down a bit to where they have the weapons with prices on them? Those Glocks are 500.00 pistols. They have one marked for 1.05. You see that Walther PPK for 156.14? My carry piece is a KNOCKOFF of that pistol, and it STILL costs almost 400.00. An actual PPK will go for about 600.00. And then there's this statement:

with nothing more than money and a little online savoir faire, you can buy extremely powerful, deadly weapons�Glocks, Berettas, PPKs, AK-47s, Bushmaster rifles, even a grenade�in secret, shipped anywhere in the world.

If this were for real, do you have any idea how fast ATF would be all over these guys?

    Bookmark   July 21, 2012 at 11:24PM
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david52_gw

They use some sort of internet currency called bitcoms

So I wondered, just how easy is it to get a gun? A semi-auto, 9mm Beretta 92FS with "No scratches or dents, very slight wear from extremely light usage" would hit me for 338.69 bitcoins. At the current Bitcoin/Dollar exchange of roughly 9-to-1, that's a little over $3,000. A stiff markup.

Now where anybody gets a bitcom is beyond my current level of understanding

    Bookmark   July 21, 2012 at 11:36PM
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houseful

David, do you mean bitCOIN?

    Bookmark   July 21, 2012 at 11:46PM
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elvis

Wikipedia defines it. Worth a read.

    Bookmark   July 22, 2012 at 12:11AM
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bill_vincent(Central Maine)

Stiff markup is right. I owned a 92FS and it cost me 650.00.

    Bookmark   July 22, 2012 at 9:39AM
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maggie2094

The post mortem continues and nothing will change because it is easy to talk about your constitutional rights than face the perversion of it. My friend offered this quote:

"I don't know which is worse. The terror you feel the first time you witness such things, or the numbness that comes after it starts to become ordinary."
~ Tasha Alexander, A Fatal Waltz

Lets just whitewash the fact that this is all legal and move on people! Hey, did you know that even people on terrorist watch list can purchase firearms? Thank the NRA! Don't we ll know the NRA does not represent the gun owner but the gun manufacture? Oh yea we don't. But, guess what? James Homes, bomb maker and mass murderer is not a terrorist according to us! No...he is the guy just like the gun owners here, seemingly upright citizen that deserves the right to purchase assault weapons and 6000 rounds of ammo for his pleasure - it is his right!

My husband is a gun owner and would never support what is promoted on here but trigger happy gun right defenders that ignore the tragedy here and the rot at the core and insteaad promote conspiracy theories that are an insult to the victims of this tragedy in order to feel good about themselves. In our country 3,000 children are killed by guns each year...but heck by all means - go save a puppy.

    Bookmark   July 22, 2012 at 10:06AM
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demifloyd(8)

We need to save innocent puppies, too, from needless and callous ending of their lives.

    Bookmark   July 22, 2012 at 10:10AM
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marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

Maggie, thank you for posing the truth in such an eloquent way.

Wait a moment and those 3,000 children killed by guns will be belittled by claims of millions of abortions a year (and therefore millions of baby killers out there.) False equivilency.

    Bookmark   July 22, 2012 at 10:15AM
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houseful

Wait a moment and those 3,000 children killed by guns will be belittled by claims of millions of abortions a year (and therefore millions of baby killers out there.) False equivilency.

Invalid argument.

Mary Muscari, a criminology professor at Regis University in Denver who studies mass killings, said she was not surprised Holmes was studying neuroscience and mental disorders. "It could be he was interested in that because he knows there's something different in him," she said.

This is kind of a weird statement. There are wonderful people doing work in the neuroscience field

    Bookmark   July 22, 2012 at 11:04AM
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maggie2094

Thanks, Marshallz...I am embarrassingly not eloquent :/

Guns and Religion...a marriage made in hell.

    Bookmark   July 22, 2012 at 11:16AM
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marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

Not a weird statement at all. I've spent 23 years observing graduate students of psychology and a goodly number of those were practicing self-healing. And some not very effectively.

What is the "Invalid argument?"

    Bookmark   July 22, 2012 at 11:21AM
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david52_gw

The guy failed his 'prelims', although the school won't say so - as of yet. When you fail, you are given the option of getting a Masters Degree in the subject, or the 'choice' of withdrawing. Hence the wording.

"James Eagan Holmes had made it into an exclusive academic program and was facing high stakes when police say he began buying the weapons and ammunition he later used in Friday's movie-theater shooting.

Holmes, 24, was one of six people accepted into the neuroscience program at the University of Colorado Anschutz Medical Campus' graduate school for the 2011-12 academic year. He was there on a Neuroscience Training Grant from the National Institutes of Health - a program focused on training "outstanding neuroscientists and academicians who will make significant contributions to neurobiology," university spokeswoman Jacque Montgomery said.

The grant funds just six pre-thesis Ph.D. students at CU per year.

At the end of the program's first year, students take preliminary oral exams, known as "prelims." Students who do well continue on for the next year; those who have trouble talk with the training committee about possible options, including taking the exam again, Montgomery said.

The university would not disclose how Holmes did on his test.

But around the same time, he began purchasing weapons. In June, he decided to withdraw from the program.

He gave no reason for his withdrawal, Montgomery said.

She also said campus police had no contact with Holmes.

CU's neuroscience program focuses on how the brain functions, with an emphasis on behavior, processing of information, learning and memory. A professor said Holmes was in the physiology subprogram, which specifically studies the physical mechanics of the brain.

Students take classes and conduct research during their first year. In subsequent years, the full-time focus is research.

The program typically takes five to seven years to complete." end quote

The Denver Post is now quoting the police saying that the guy bought is ammunition online, not mentioning the guns, which is perfectly legal.

As an aside, I remember those halcyon days of youth when we 12-13 yr olds would pool our allowances and go buy a couple pounds of gunpowder from the sporting goods stores -usually used for reloading - and go explore the world of pyrotechnics. Something tragedy happened and then they outlawed that.

Here is a link that might be useful: link

    Bookmark   July 22, 2012 at 11:36AM
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bill_vincent(Central Maine)

In our country 3,000 children are killed by guns each year...but heck by all means - go save a puppy.

You're right. Instead of doing something proactive, I should do like you and just sit in front of my computer and cry all day about what's not being done.

    Bookmark   July 22, 2012 at 2:47PM
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marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

Good answer. We all make choices on what is important to save.

    Bookmark   July 22, 2012 at 2:52PM
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bill_vincent(Central Maine)

Hey marshall-- point me to someplace I can do some real good TODAY in real life with respect to guns and violence, and I'm outa here, smartass!

    Bookmark   July 22, 2012 at 3:21PM
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marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

HooT! Social/cultural issues are not solved in a day or a week but during the lifetime of commitment to change.

And you know that. Saving puppies and wildlife care centers are important bits of work toward making our lives a bit more humane. Dumbass!!!

;)

    Bookmark   July 22, 2012 at 3:28PM
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maggie2094

Many of those 3,000 children died in accidental deaths at the hands of their caretakers or themselves...you know rightful gun owners that maybe didn't lock up their guns properly or the kids found a way...children in the US are 11 times more likely to be killed by accidental gunfire than children elsewhere.

But, hey whats the problem.

    Bookmark   July 22, 2012 at 3:35PM
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david52_gw

What was it last week? A two year old found his granddads gun and killed himself?

    Bookmark   July 22, 2012 at 3:54PM
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bill_vincent(Central Maine)

I know that I was just attacked because I went to a puppy mill protest yesterday. But being that Maggie really couldn't direectly attack me for that, she did it by making it look like I was marginalizing what's happening with guns and violence. You, me, and maggie sitting here taking shots at each other in this little bitty forum doesn't do a damn thing. But like I said, if you had an event where I could be proactive about this? I'd be there in a second. You can bet on that. Otherwise there's nothing to say about my taking a proactive step abbout something else I CAN help.

Dumbass. (and dumbassette)

    Bookmark   July 22, 2012 at 4:12PM
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bill_vincent(Central Maine)

Of course, all you did, once again, was give lip service. You folks in here are good at that-- talk.

    Bookmark   July 22, 2012 at 4:15PM
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marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

It is a discussion board. Nobody would notice if we danced naked and made faces. Or if during the lulls, we were quietly saving the earth from space aliens. All we do is talk. Here. Dumkoff

    Bookmark   July 22, 2012 at 4:19PM
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bill_vincent(Central Maine)

Correction-- All it seems you all do is talk. period. Obviously, when someone acts, it's fodder for criticizm. And I don't wanna hear about glory days of the 60's, either. Ancient history.

    Bookmark   July 22, 2012 at 4:27PM
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demifloyd(8)

And I don't wanna hear about glory days of the 60's, either. Ancient history.

*

Oh, I'm beginning to think that's all some have.

How sad.

    Bookmark   July 22, 2012 at 4:29PM
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maggie2094

Hairtrigger temper, crude and vulgar and you are up in arms and having a fit...you made the comment about going off to a puppy mill protest which seemed very out of place in light of the thread topic so I took a shot at your target.

Funny what people get outraged about and the nature of your barbs which I find to be much sharper when aimed at a woman...more jokey when with another man. Just my observation.

    Bookmark   July 22, 2012 at 4:35PM
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bill_vincent(Central Maine)

It was more jokey with Marshall, because usually it's good natured debate between him and me. You on the other hand, made it very clear several weeks ago, that "the gloves were coming off", and you've done your best to live up to that since, and so you're treated accordingly. Ask Ink if I'm "jokey" with him. Don't even try that. It won't float.

    Bookmark   July 22, 2012 at 5:16PM
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inkognito

How easy it is to turn a tragedy into something that justifies your own personal agenda. In a way the puppy mill story is the way to get involved locally in something you may actually be able to change and should be applauded. But you do that and then vent your spleen on Jodi (oh yes I see it)who is a person and may in the grand scheme of things deserve more. Of course marshall is right too: how do we disturb a pattern of mass murder with guns? we go on a puppy mill demo natch.

    Bookmark   July 22, 2012 at 5:27PM
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jerzeegirl(9)

Bill did something good by going to a puppy mill protest and I am not really understanding why anyone would try to demean him for it. Please let's not be critical of the good that people try to do. There is plenty of bad that we can argue about!

    Bookmark   July 22, 2012 at 5:36PM
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chase_gw

I agree jz, doin' good is doin' good and ought not to get mixed up with other things.

Good for you Bill, a good cause.

    Bookmark   July 22, 2012 at 5:39PM
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maggie2094

A couple weeks ago? No clue. Really? Yes puppy mill protest are good really? I didn't know.

    Bookmark   July 22, 2012 at 6:38PM
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maggie2094

I should do like you and just sit in front of my computer and cry all day about what's not being done.

Oh my goodness, whatever is wrong with a statement like this, thank goodness for people like you out there being proactive...I do nothing but complain on a computer all day. HO hum

    Bookmark   July 22, 2012 at 6:45PM
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elvis

That is probably not true. However, I've yet to see you post something positive. This is a valid observation. Please point out a couple positive ones, if I'm wrong about that. I'd like to be wrong about it, actually.

But that's okay; as long as you don't criticize others, hopefully they'll return the courtesy.

Back to the OP--I'll point out that guns don't massacre; people do.

    Bookmark   July 22, 2012 at 7:40PM
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duluthinbloomz4

How about people with guns massacre people.

    Bookmark   July 22, 2012 at 8:24PM
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marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

Terrorists don't kill people, bombs do.

    Bookmark   July 22, 2012 at 8:28PM
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marquest(z5 PA)

Guns do not kill without the people.

Lets get rid of people.

    Bookmark   July 22, 2012 at 8:37PM
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duluthinbloomz4

In a certain sense, some people with guns are doing just that!

    Bookmark   July 22, 2012 at 8:43PM
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elvis

That is probably not true. However, I've yet to see you post something positive. This is a valid observation. Please point out a couple positive ones, if I'm wrong about that. I'd like to be wrong about it, actually.

But that's okay; as long as you don't criticize others, hopefully they'll return the courtesy.

Back to the OP--I'll point out that guns don't massacre; people do.

    Bookmark   July 22, 2012 at 11:03PM
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marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

Let's hear it for the efficiency of people enlarging their capacities to massacre using faultless semi-automatic weapons amassed for that purpose but otherwise harmless.

    Bookmark   July 22, 2012 at 11:14PM
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marquest(z5 PA)

Posted by elvis 4b WI (My Page) on
Sun, Jul 22, 12 at 23:03
Back to the OP--I'll point out that guns don't massacre; people do.
------------------------------------------

and around and round we go.

There needs to be more control. Average Joe does not need an assault weapon.

"Authorities said the gunman might have killed more if his assault rifle had not jammed.

The official said late Saturday the rifle had a high-capacity ammunition magazine which, based on witness accounts and evidence collected at the scene, apparently jammed. The rifle's malfunction then forced the suspected shooter, James Holmes, to switch to another weapon.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 12:01AM
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marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

How come the audienced was not armed and did not return fire? There could have been a much larger casualty toll.

Good to know that the next time a terrorist bomb kills and wounds hundreds, we can blame the terrorist and not the bomb. Bombs don't kill people, terrorists do.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 12:39AM
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lily316(z5PA)

Everyone in the audience of the theater could have been armed and it would have done no good. The shooter was covered from head to toe in armor...head, chest ,throat, groin and legs. And it was dark, so there goes that argument. How many others would have been killed in a crossfire like the wild west?

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 2:44AM
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tobr24u(z6 RI)

Let's face it, men love guns. They make them feel equal to any man...

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 7:10AM
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inkognito

I don't think it would do any harm to review the second amendment as there seems to be a reality disconnect in there.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

This is used to legitimize gun ownership. if changed or rescinded would this change peoples attitude?

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 8:39AM
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jodik_gw

Ok... so I guess some of us aren't aware of what really goes down in the world we live in, day to day, bigger picture-wise... how other nations, governments, military, politics, drugs, crime, borders, beliefs, profit, and immigration play roles. I guess some of us have long forgotten what went on behind the scenes during a little something called Iran-Contra, just to mention one incident. And it's easier to lob written grenades at each other than to maybe take a second and think about what's being said, and why.

What a shame it is to think that we ARE so involved in our techno-bubbles that we don't see all the different shades of gray in the world of gun ownership... which as of now, is still a legal right protected by our Constitution... that means the same today as it did when our forefathers wrote it... to me, anyway. Having an armed population could come in handy... it's just a shame that the few always end up ruining much of everything for the majority.

And for a final time... if it weren't for irresponsibility, Bill wouldn't need to attend a rally on puppy mills; they wouldn't exist. Where's the personal responsibility in that issue? And no, I will not discuss it further, so save it.

I didn't read any of the details of this shooting incident... that's taken up, what, two threads, now? Why? Because it's another tragedy heightened and hyped by media, that we can't stop from happening. Do I feel bad for those involved? Yes. Can I do anything about it? No. I don't have the workable solutions, and I haven't seen any offered based in reality.

This is why I post less and less... because the lack of forethought in typing, and the reading comprehension and taking in of context, have taken a rather pronounced dive. Instead of offering thoughtful suggestions and opinions, having a little patience and understanding, or trying for any type of solutions to issues, everything devolves into a keyboard shouting match of epic proportion. Everything is reactionary outrage in typed form, which does little good in the greater scheme. Every gotcha moment is grabbed and savored, every messenger is shot through the heart with snark, and we become more divided and look that much less intelligent to anyone looking in. It's not a big surprise that the group of regulars here is in decline.

For every one unfortunate shooting incident, how many citizens own and treat weapons, and treat human life, with the greatest of respect? Does anyone even know? Does taking the size of our population as a nation, and the current state it's in, have any bearing on any of the shooting incidents that happen daily? And what about all the other variables involved?

Good grief, already.

Bill, you're lucky you only have coyotes... try a couple of packs of roaming coydogs. They're very bold, and have an inherent lack of fear when it comes to humans, making them rather dangerous. Eradicating them is a bit more difficult than it seems. But then, if irresponsible people wouldn't just dump their unwanted dogs... well, you know the rest. :-)

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 11:01AM
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kwoods(Cold z7 Long Is)

No mention of mental health and the fact that it is easier to get a gun than mental health treatment.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 12:23PM
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chase_gw

It's also harder to get allergy medicine than it is to get guns!!!

Just saw the first hearing. This guy is either drugged, in shock or totally disconnected from reality. He looked dazed, kept closing his eyes as if dozing off, no expression, no emotion, he looked as if he wasn't comprehending anything.

Very, very weird.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 12:29PM
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david52_gw

Good point, kwoods. It is extremely difficult to get mental health treatment.

But in Colorado, if you don't have a felony conviction or a current restraining order, you can walk into any gun shop, do the federal background check which takes 10 minutes, walk out with all the guns you can afford and all the ammo you can carry.

And turn around and legally sell them on a one-to-one basis to anybody.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 12:51PM
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hamiltongardener(CAN 6a)

And turn around and legally sell them on a one-to-one basis to anybody.

Just to make sure I understand this. If you sell your guns to the neighbour, you don't have to get a background check on him and it is still legal?

So the criminal background check only applies if it is a business selling the guns?

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 12:59PM
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seashellsandpearls

>>Just saw the first hearing. This guy is either drugged, in shock or totally disconnected from reality. He looked dazed, kept closing his eyes as if dozing off, no expression, no emotion, he looked as if he wasn't comprehending anything.I watched it, too. Funny though..both DH and I thought it looked liked it HAD dawned on him what he has done. Usually, with these things the perp is smug or ranting, but still "proud", somehow, of what they have done. Or totally loony, zombie like.

I didn't take that as no emotion, no comprehension...it looked to us that he did realize what he as done. We were both surprised... although it could seem as if he looked drugged, I thought it was more like he was trying to comprehend or reconcile this horrible, horrible thing he had done.

Anyway, his appearance and demeanor was not what we expected, at all.

>>Very, very weird.Yes. Yes, it was.

Sea

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 1:41PM
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chase_gw

Actually sea I had the same impression at first. It was as if he could not believe what he had done, that none of it was real, that's what I mean by disconnected from reality....but then the nodding off thing made me wonder.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 1:46PM
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lily316(z5PA)

Or it was just an insanity act to get him off. He can play everyone..the nice very religious quiet kid who commits the worse mass murder in US history. He's playing you all. Make no mistake, he's brilliant.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 1:50PM
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david52_gw

Just to make sure I understand this. If you sell your guns to the neighbour, you don't have to get a background check on him and it is still legal?

So the criminal background check only applies if it is a business selling the guns?

Yes. As for the later, Colorado closed the "gun show loophole" where the Columbine shooters bought their guns. Prior to that, all you needed to do was be 18 yrs old and show an id to buy a gun at a gun show.

But if I want to sell one of my guns, I can put a classified ad in the paper and sell it with no back ground check. Its not uncommon at all to see guns for sale in the newspaper, and out at the rifle range I see people selling guns out of the trunk of their cars.

There is some sort of Federal law that ties in with the Fast and Furious fiasco. If I *know* that the person I'm selling my guns to is a crook and off to rob a bank, then thats illegal.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 2:01PM
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chase_gw

Brilliant yes, but I'm not so sure about the rest...he was very catatonic.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 2:43PM
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lily316(z5PA)

Or acting catatonic.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 3:04PM
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kwoods(Cold z7 Long Is)

"Or it was just an insanity act to get him off. "

I'm not sure anything he does from here on out could trump what he's already done insanity-wise.

As a society we need to come to terms with the fact that there are mentally unbalanced people and mental health issues that we are simply NOT dealing with.... This is a choice we are making. This poor choice needs to be addressed in some meaningful way... unless we are ok with this happening again... and again.... and again.

Every time this happens we hear that the warning signs were there.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 3:06PM
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inkognito

I'm going to get that invisible ink cartridge changed tomorrow, then I will post my question again.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 3:16PM
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kwoods(Cold z7 Long Is)

Your question is too hypothetical, invisible or otherwise.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 3:24PM
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jodik_gw

"No mention of mental health and the fact that it is easier to get a gun than mental health treatment."

Yeah, I mentioned something about that in the other thread, KWoods... for all the good it did.

It also doesn't matter how easy it is to legally obtain weapons and ammunition... because the section of people we worry the most about usually don't obtain them legally.

There will always exist an underground market for weapons, drugs, sex, or anything you could possibly desire. Let's face it... it's a losing battle.

So, we catch a few and lock them up... and someone new moves in and takes their place. And the cycle continues... and today, it's become a multi-billion dollar business, housing and caring for our prison population.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 3:32PM
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inkognito

"too hypothetical"? there was talk about the necessity if an attitude change regarding gun ownership so my question regarding changing legislation that legitimizes it is far from hypothetical. As far as I can tell from the wording of the 2nd amendment it is a "A well regulated Militia" that is deemed necessary to resist a pushy government. As this militia doesn't appear to exist individual gun ownership should disappear to no? When was the last time guns were used to resist the government? So the non hypothetical question is if people no longer felt they had a right to own a gun would this change their attitude. People could still have guns perhaps but the onus of why would shift wouldn't it?

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 4:09PM
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dublinbay z6 (KS)

NRA types do not accept your "militia" reasoning. They claim they are ready, with their guns, to form their own militias anytime they need to--which is what the 2nd Amendment says they ought to do.

I suspect any one of them would be glad to stand up, with his/her gun, and declare him/herself a militia of ONE--if it came down to that.

And I honestly think that if someone seriously proposed that we abolish the 2nd Amendment, that the NRA types would proudly declare war on the government for behaving like a tyrant--which is to say, unconstitutionally, in their eyes.

Kate

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 4:37PM
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heri_cles

This Joker exercised his Second Amendment Right to bear arms against our country, our citizens, our neighbors, our families and our children.

The Second Amendment is no longer relevant in our society. The hypothetical militias that could use them against oppressive government are now called domestic terrorists, and they need to be disarmed, not armed.

IMO, no one should have an unconditional right to bear arms anytime and any place.
No more guns sales over the internet or in classified ads.
Guns should only be legally available through dealers that are set up to do proper background checks and keep thorough records transmitted to a central data base that can monitor who has what weapon.
Gun shows should be against the law.

One day things will change....after a few more blood baths.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 4:52PM
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seashellsandpearls

>> Actually sea I had the same impression at first. It was as if he could not believe what he had done, that none of it was real, that's what I mean by disconnected from reality....but then the nodding off thing made me wonder. Yes, exactly!...you left off your first impressions in your OP and I left off my ending impressions. Yes, it wasn't until midway leaning towards the end that he did look drugged. There was plenty of commentary and speculation about it on the newscast that I was watching. However, I didn't actually hear what they said about the possibility.

So, turns out we did see the same thing.

And, no, I do not think he was faking any of it.
Such a terrible, terrible thing for the victims and their families. And yet, I immediately thought of his Mother when I saw him..his Dad, too. He did not look afraid for his situation to me..only alarmed and, dare I say it?, horrified that it is HE who they were talking of.

In any case, I don't think he will last long. I think he will do his best to kill himself. I do believe the enormity of his crime, the terrible, terrible agony he caused has hit him. The pain he has caused his family, as well.

There is such a disconnect to it all... why booby trap the apartment, only to warn the police of the danger?

Questions without answers....I'm afraid.

Sea

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 4:53PM
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october17(5chgo)

I can see only one way out of all this gun violence:

Shut down weapon manufacturers here and stop importing firearms. Sure sure they will get smuggled in. But it will still mean fewer guns out there.

Meanwhile, I'm gonna go buy one.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 6:47PM
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hamiltongardener(CAN 6a)

I think we could learn a lot by studying this guy. There might be some way that society could find connections between people like this guy and Anders Brevik.

What pushes them over the edge? What makes their minds work the way they do, what makes them snap?

And certainly most important, what are the warning signs?

I'm drawn to wondering if something within this guy's studies made him break. Too much pressure from a certain prof or class or maybe he was failing something.

Not that it excuses his actions... all kids are under pressure to succeed and they aren't snapping. I just believe that there is some common connection to be found in these people who lose it in this manner.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 7:34PM
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demifloyd(8)

Posted by lily316 z5PA (My Page) on
Mon, Jul 23, 12 at 13:50

Or it was just an insanity act to get him off. He can play everyone..the nice very religious quiet kid who commits the worse mass murder in US history. He's playing you all. Make no mistake, he's brilliant.

*

I tend to agree with this assessment.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 7:40PM
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maggie2094

Brilliance and madness are not always that far apart.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 7:53PM
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jerzeegirl(9)

There were some expressions on his face that made me wonder if he was hearing voices.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 8:10PM
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david52_gw

Is it possible that he was sedated/medicated?

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 8:21PM
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jodik_gw

And still no answers regarding the huge black market, the underground end of weaponry... where any type of weapon you desire is yours for a price... and the thousands and thousands of illegal pieces of weaponry floating about, tucked into waistbands, hidden under car seats, or waiting in cases to be reassembled and used to murder...

We can talk all day long about 2nd Amendments rights, accidental or purposeful shootings, statistics, gun bans, laws, or anything else you want related to the subject... but when it comes right down to it, you'll never be able to un-arm the entire nation... and the cycle will continue.

Look at the stats for countries in which guns already ARE illegal... that should provide a small clue.

So... where are all the answers and solutions? Or are we just stuck on another merry-go-round of unending argument about who is pro and who is con when it comes to guns? Because that's all this really is.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 8:22PM
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inkognito

Jodi it is odd that you have set yourself up as adjudicator of this topic of discussion, it is almost like you have decided what everyone should think or do (nothing). In all the discussions we have had about guns over the years you have stuck with the same 'guns don't kill' rhetoric and then say that there is no solution only a loop of for and against thereby dismissing the subject.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 9:06PM
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elvis

Posted by hamiltongardener CAN 6a (My Page) on Mon, Jul 23, 12 at 19:34

"I think we could learn a lot by studying this guy. There might be some way that society could find connections between people like this guy and Anders Brevik"

I agree; but short of literally taking him apart to study his physiology, what can be learned?

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 9:34PM
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hamiltongardener(CAN 6a)

Look at the stats for countries in which guns already ARE illegal... that should provide a small clue.

I looked at that firearms homicide rate and sorted by countries where citizens can not own guns. It seemed to me that those countries had a lower rate of firearms related murder than the countries with armed citizens.

Also, countries with more restrictive gun laws also seemed to have lower gun murders, such as Australia and England.

There were a couple of places I felt skewed the overall curve, of course. Guns are legal in Columbia and the firearm murder rate is probably 20 times higher than most countries, but that is an anomaly...probably shouldn't count.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 9:41PM
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hamiltongardener(CAN 6a)

I agree; but short of literally taking him apart to study his physiology, what can be learned?

It's his background, his state of mind, from a psychiatric POV. What pushed him over the edge? What was he thinking that he just couldn't take anymore?

And better yet, is there any similarities in his background to the Virginia Tech shooter, or the Norway shooter, or any similar guys that go on shooting rampages?

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 9:46PM
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david52_gw

There is a real effort underway by the survivors / victim family members to not give this guy any publicity - they asked the President not to mention him, and he obliged.

They asked the same of the local press - but then the press seems to feel they have a duty to give this guy 50X the coverage of the victims.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 10:16PM
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althea_gw

"Is it possible that he was sedated/medicated?"

That is what I have been wondering since I heard about the murders.

If you google something like "school shooter(ing)" & ssri you'll find a significant number of these people had been taking one or the other of them - prozac, etc.. I haven't heard anything about his medication history yet.

He sure looked whacked on something today.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2012 at 10:17PM
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lily316(z5PA)

Anders Brevik had a motive in his warped mind. He didn't like the policies of his government. There is no evidence that this shooter was political.

I did wonder too about the rigged apartment and yet when he was captured, he told officers about it.

It was thought out for months. The extreme music started an midnight and he thought someone would call the cops who would respond and unintentionally blow up the place. Then he could proceed to do carnage at the theater uninterrupted. Not a crazy person to plan all this for months.

This guy is brilliant. He was only one of six in this advanced PhD curriculum. I think he's playing everyone. If he's going for the insanity defense, just appear catatonic, so you're committed instead of spending your days on death row. One of the lawyer commentators agreed with what I thought. I think it was Dan Abrams. Said he was either drugged or maybe he was playing us.

    Bookmark   July 24, 2012 at 1:47AM
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thegreatcob

well be a neurological graduate student one could say this guy just produce one of nastiest physiological experiments ever done. what surprises me is he let him self be captured so easily. you plan something like this for months why
let end so easily. if he is that smart why not do more damage and make the whole game a challenge to get caught.
i find his actions repulsive. given where he committed crime and how he was armed he could have caused more mayhem. before the cops even caught him.
something just does not add up. the media spin on this guy does not add up either.
also before he shot up theaters he broke no law buying guns or ammo that is what should scare us all. since he had no mental or other issues that would prevent him from legally acquiring his guns.
I am in favor of second amendment but no on needs a 100 round drum for self defense or hunting
unless you piss off a drug gang. then you have more then just a security issue.

    Bookmark   July 24, 2012 at 2:17AM
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maddie_athome

One more, on guns:

Jodi has a point insofar that we need to cut through the spin the falsehoods and the outright lies. In fact, if I could put Bill and Jodi in charge of who gets to own guns and more important, who doesn't, things would improve before you could blink. I'd also put them in charge of putting the NRA back into its place. Who do they think they are.

I am convinced that had the founding fathers known what kind of citizenry would be entering the picture down the road in the far future...a citizenry which only knows and cares about the 2nd half of the 2nd amendment.

They would have thought twice.

Thank you Dave, for your tireless efforts to keep this on track. Fighting about gun owner rights hurling insults and arguing about technicalities. All of it in the face of the people already dead and the people fighting for their lives and the wounded, and the families. Disgusting.

    Bookmark   July 24, 2012 at 5:53AM
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inkognito

In case you are calling me disgusting Maddie let me tell you that my sympathies are with the Aurora victims but also with the victims of the next gun fueled tragedy. If we could do something about that inevitability rather than accept it that would make sense to me. Consider the major changes to laws under Bush/Obama that effect peoples rights and tell me that significant changes couldn't be made if the will was there and there was no fear of losing votes.

    Bookmark   July 24, 2012 at 7:20AM
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althea_gw

I didn't follow the Breivik case. This is interesting:

It's the drugs, stupid. In hundreds of square miles of supposed analysis of the Norway mass murder, almost nobody has noticed that the smirking Anders Breivik was taking large quantities of mind-altering chemicals.

In this case, the substances are an anabolic steroid called stanozolol, combined with an amphetamine-like drug called ephedrine, plus caffeine to make the mixture really fizz.
Almost nobody has noticed that the smirking Anders Breivik was taking large quantities of mind-altering chemicals

Almost nobody has noticed that the smirking Anders Breivik was taking large quantities of mind-altering chemicals

I found these facts in Breivik�s vast, drivelling manifesto simply because I was looking for them.

The authorities and most of the media are more interested in his non-existent belief in fundamentalist Christianity.

I doubt if the drugs would ever have been known about if Breivik hadn�t himself revealed this.

I suspect that mind-bending drugs of some kind feature in almost all of the epidemic rampage killings that Western society is now suffering.

Here is a link that might be useful: daily mail

    Bookmark   July 24, 2012 at 8:04AM
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maddie_athome

In case you are calling me disgusting Maddie let me tell you that my sympathies are with the Aurora victims but also with the victims of the next gun fueled tragedy. If we could do something about that inevitability rather than accept it that would make sense to me. Consider the major changes to laws under Bush/Obama that effect peoples rights and tell me that significant changes couldn't be made if the will was there and there was no fear of losing votes.

No Ink, not you.

In fact, I agree with what you say. And I think the will is already there. The major problem though is the screeching noise machine. Of a minority, no less.

It used to get spun along the "oh it's just an isolated incident!" line, but with so many mass shootings that won't work anymore. So, different approach it is. Is it just me, or does all the debate about details sound like shop talk? And the victims are what? Collateral damage? Glitches in the system? Too bad, but sh*t happens?

    Bookmark   July 24, 2012 at 8:09AM
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jodik_gw

Let's be realistic about this, Ink.

One could say with a little accuracy that a forum, or message board... especially this type... was designed for the debate of such issues... that should either lead us toward workable solutions, offer differing opinions based in fact, or give us pause to think... but very little of that seems to be happening here. Or are you reading something I'm not?

With such a large and diverse population, in all quarters, occasional and brutal happenings like the one in question are inevitable. These things even happen in countries where guns are completely illegal to own. So the numbers are lower... but the shootings still happen. This tells us that laws are only as workable and useful as those who follow them.

I think if all 50 states had equally tough gun laws, it might help to a small extent. Right now, we're all over the place with varying laws. In some states, it's tougher to obtain weapons, and impossible to legally obtain various types... while in other states, gun laws practically don't exist, and there's more of a "wild west" mentality.

If our health care system were in good shape, and persons with issues could get the help needed, that might offer another piece to the puzzle. But what about those 50 million Americans that can't even get regular physical health care, let alone any psychiatric help they may need? And what about the people that go undiagnosed or misdiagnosed, and un-medicated or wrongly medicated for issues that could render them harmful to the public?

But even with all puzzle pieces in place, it's highly doubtful that we would ever be able to stop all gun violence. I don't know what the numbers are, but for every legal gun owned, how many illegally owned and used guns exist? How much corruption and/or hard lobbying are part of the equation?

Gun bans prove futile, as those unregistered weapons remain on the streets within the hands of people with less than respectful, peaceful intent.

We live in a nation, and a world, where weaponry is big business, military is glorified, and war is a constant. And in the end, if someone wants a gun, they'll find a way to obtain one.

And if not a gun, a bomb... and if not a bomb, some other type of mayhem will take place. If someone has it locked within their head to cause violence, they'll find a way.

So... what ARE the answers? What are the REAL solutions?

Any significant legal changes only work in the world of legal gun ownership. But legislation does little to nothing to stem the flow of illegal weapons and the crimes they are part of.

And as of now, any cry of "Obama wants to take away our guns" is pure propaganda... so that crowd is fearful over nothing.

Guns serve more than just illegal purposes, let's not forget. They offer personal protection, they're used for hunting, they're used for sport and marksmanship contests, etc. But by the same token, if a person has no respect for human life, no conscience to guide them, is mentally unbalanced, has a grudge for some reason, or has reached the end of their rope, the results probably won't be pretty.

And I ask again, what is the answer? I don't think a clear cut one exists.

As I mentioned earlier, my husband and I just watched a series on gangs, and there's a never ending supply of drug cartel money flowing north from South America, financing the complete arming of gangs to protect their criminal activities. They murder at will... over territory, issues with or disrespect from rivals, removing informants, or people get caught in the crossfire, etc... and that's only one piece of the criminal puzzle. And fear or corruption within LE and governments keeps it all afloat. Legalizing drugs would put a huge dent in their power... but it won't ever happen... not with a privatized prison system in place here.

I just don't see how we can effectively put a stop to violent human behavior... but if anyone has any workable solutions to gun violence in America, I'm all ears.

    Bookmark   July 24, 2012 at 9:36AM
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rob333

It's really amazing how small this world is getting. When I first heard the story, I tried to think of who might be affected. Truly, David came to mind. I'm glad you weren't there and did what you could to help-thankyou!. But now, a friend at church was in the theater. He hid and survived. A coworker was in an adjoining theater and treated the wounded (ambulances didn't come, so they put people in police cars and took them)... wonder how many more ways I can be connected to something so far away physically (about 1200 miles). It's amazing when I am from Tennessee, how many states away?! Amazing. I also heard the shooter had a TN plate on his car. It's such a small world.

    Bookmark   July 24, 2012 at 1:09PM
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kwoods(Cold z7 Long Is)

How many here have ever had a mental health screening?

My insurance requires a physical. I've had jobs in the past that required drug testing. My wife needs more testing, background checks, fingerprinting, certifications than I can remember. Mental health screening, never.

How many here have ever had to deal with an individual going through a psychotic episode? Someone, especially a young person with ongoing mental health issues?

Would you rather be trapped in a room with ten sane gun owners with concealed carry permits or one unarmed mentally unbalanced person off their meds?

Sorry, forgot.... mental health issues and crazy people we just ignore like they don't exist....

    Bookmark   July 24, 2012 at 1:29PM
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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

How many here have ever had to deal with an individual going through a psychotic episode?

I have, and I would never wish that experience on anyone.

I agree with everything you say.

    Bookmark   July 24, 2012 at 1:41PM
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marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

ditto!

    Bookmark   July 24, 2012 at 2:02PM
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heri_cles

Screening who gets weapons is not practical.
I would favor restricting the import or manufacture in this country of certain weapons (like assault weapons and certain ammo) unless they are being made pursuant to a government contract for our military or police.
Cut them off at the source and hopefully this will start to reduce the easy availability to this stuff like this kid and Loughner had.

Unfortunately nothing will be done to stop the gun culture in this country.
We have people in rural areas that simply do not understand how the proliferation of weapons contributes to gun violence and even domestic violence in cities across the country. Couple that with the entertainment industry that has been glorifying guns and violence to absurd extremes, as in the Batman movie. Then there is a partisan divide that is fueled by the Right which is tied to the arcane wording in the 2nd Amendment that Ink discussed.

Meanwhile, there are folks like me that want the freedom to be safe in public places and to be insured that YOU are not carrying a deadly weapon on you, because I do not know who you are, whether or not you need psychological evaluation or anger management, are a self-appointed vigilante, or are just a paranoid teabagger wanting to take your country back.

I don't care...just leave me and my family alone. Leave your weapons at home, idiots.

    Bookmark   July 24, 2012 at 4:24PM
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heri_cles

Where did this idiot get the swat team type outfit and the tear gas cannisters?

That crap is available on the internet as well?

Instead of regulating porn on the net how about regulating assault weapons, ammunition types, and swat team gear?

    Bookmark   July 24, 2012 at 4:30PM
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fl_gypsy

Thank you Bill for protesting Puppy mills. Just ignore the negative response you got from some and consider the source.

No, a tragedy like this one in Aurora could never happen in countries where guns are outlawed.......WRONG. If a person's desire to commit a hideous crime is strong enough they will find a way around laws as shown by the massacres listed below. Even though the guns in this shooting were obtained legally, the fact is, as that old saying goes, "if guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns". In reality, stricter gun laws, will affect only the law abiding gun owners. How about lets enforce the laws already on the books.

"Colorado Springs, The Gazzette"

"Laws control deranged killers about as well as they control the sun. If we are tempted to control the tools of mass murder, let�s review the environments of some of modern history�s worst gun massacres:
� A gunman killed 69 people, mostly children, at a summer camp in Norway on July 22, 2011. An additional 110 were injured, 55 seriously. The killer murdered an additional eight, and injured 209, earlier that day with a car bomb in downtown Oslo. The acquisition and storage of guns is strictly regulated in Norway. Guns that are common in the United States are flatly illegal in Norway.

� Gunman Farda Gadyrov shot up the Azerbaijan State Oil Academy in Baku, killing 12, on April 30, 2009. Few places have stricter gun laws than Azerbaijan. GunPolicy.org categorizes the country�s gun laws as "restrictive." Guns are regulated by the National Assembly and the ministry of the Interior. Civilians are not allowed to possess guns of any sort for any reason.

� Gunman Matti Saari opened fire at a vocational college in Kauhajoki, Finland, on Sept. 23, 2008, killing 10. GunPolicy.org categorizes Finland�s gun laws as "restrictive." Finnish law does not protect private ownership of guns. Ownership of most weapons is permitted only with a government-issued license.

� In another massacre in gun-restrictive Finland, Gunman Pekka-Eric Auvinen opened fire at his high school, killing eight, on Nov. 7, 2007.

� Gunman Robert Steinhaeuser opened fire at his Erfurt, Germany, high school on April 26, 2002, killing 13. GunPolicy.org categorizes Germany�s gun laws as "restrictive." Private possession of most firearms is strictly forbidden without a government permit.

� Gunman Martin Bryant shot up a cafeteria in Port Arthur, in Tasmania, Australia, killing 20. He killed an additional 15 as he tried to get away before his capture. As a result of his crimes, committed with guns the killer obtained illegally, the government quickly passed some of the strictest gun laws in the world. In 2008, 12 years later, Time magazine reported this: "New research suggests the government response to Port Arthur was a waste of public money and has made no difference to the country�s gun-related death rates."

� Gunman Thomas Hamilton opened fire at a Dunblane, Scotland, kindergarten on March 13, 1996, killing 16 children and their teacher. Since 1989, Scotland has enforced strict firearms registration. State authorities attempt to track all firearms and the government destroys all surplus and seized firearms."

Dec. 6, 1989: Marc Lepine, 25, bursts into Montreal's Ecole Polytechnique college, shooting at women he encounters, killing nine and then himself"

""""""""""" In our country 3,000 children are killed by guns each year...but heck by all means - go save a puppy. "

Yes, too many kids are killed by guns but there are many, many children killed due to other causes. Per ABC2news.com, "Car accidents kill more kids between the ages of 3 and 14 than anything else." I guess we need to do away with all automobiles.

Safe Kids USA says "Drowning is the Leading Cause of Accidental Death Among Children Ages 1-4." Guess we need to do away with all pools, hot tubs, bath tubs and any other water sources available to children.

    Bookmark   July 25, 2012 at 12:58PM
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marquest(z5 PA)

We really need to do away with the parents that are to busy to watch their children so they do not drown, have access to a gun to shot themselves.

Finally do away with parents that raise these murdering lunatics.

There is no need for the average joe blow to own assault weapons period. The gun control laws should be adjusted.

    Bookmark   July 25, 2012 at 1:33PM
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david52_gw

Well, the freedom to go to a movie with your date or your wife&kids and not get shot by some clown with full body armor, an AR15 with a 100 round clip, two pistols and a shotgun gives away to the right of those who think it too much a burden to reload smaller clips at the shooting range and people who want to dress up as some SWAT team member.

And there are way too many people who are ok with this.

Once again, I'll give a tip of the hat to the local Denver press who have, on the request of the victims, been putting far more emphasis on their stories and heroism and sacrifice than turning it into some freak show about the shooter, and best of all, not turned it into some 2nd ammendment personal gun toten' rights glory fest.

    Bookmark   July 25, 2012 at 2:04PM
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rob333

Finally do away with parents that raise these murdering lunatics.

mar-you're leaving out those with mental illness whose parents raised them just fine. I'm glad I'm not the parent of someone who has schiz, or other ill-functioning brain (as yet to be named?), that goes off the deep end, and you want me to be "done away with". Be careful. There are good parents of violent people with no "explanation" as to why the violence exists or why they do what they do.

David, that is good to focus on. The good in this. It does exist. Great job press!

    Bookmark   July 25, 2012 at 2:08PM
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maddie_athome

An opinion piece that lists 8 mass-shootings outside of the US in how many decades? Three? Versus how many mass-shootings inside the US? Per year?

Sans any real arguments, fallacies it is, passing wynd again are we, in the faces of the victims no less.

    Bookmark   July 25, 2012 at 2:48PM
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fouquieria(10b)

Years ago when they were trying to pass the Brady Bill, I read through the Bill. It was mostly common sense stuff. The NRA fought tooth-and-nail to gut the most important parts of the bill. Even after the watered-down bill was passed, the NRA launched lawsuits and in state after state...especially southern states. The NRA didn't want any part of that bill implemented. Finally, some parts were overturned by the Supreme Court. The past activities by the NRA and its supporters have radicalized me when it comes to gun control. I'd like to see that Amendment changed.

-Ron-

    Bookmark   July 25, 2012 at 3:50PM
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inkognito

Lady Brat brings this thread to its illogical conclusion, buying guns and stuff with the intention of killing a bunch of people is just like a child accidentally drowning FFS.

    Bookmark   July 25, 2012 at 6:13PM
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elvis

Posted by david52 z5CO (My Page) on Wed, Jul 25, 12 at 14:04

"Well, the freedom to go to a movie with your date or your wife&kids and not get shot by some clown with full body armor, an AR15 with a 100 round clip, two pistols and a shotgun gives away to the right of those who think it too much a burden to reload smaller clips at the shooting range and people who want to dress up as some SWAT team member.
And there are way too many people who are ok with this."

Okay with which part of this? What is it that you are saying, David?

    Bookmark   July 25, 2012 at 6:26PM
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marquest(z5 PA)

Rob,
mar-you're leaving out those with mental illness whose parents raised them just fine. I'm glad I'm not the parent of someone who has schiz, or other ill-functioning brain (as yet to be named?), that goes off the deep end, and you want me to be "done away with". Be careful. There are good parents of violent people with no "explanation" as to why the violence exists or why they do what they do.

Rob I was being sarcastic as an example of people saying it would not help to put some gun control in place. Comparing drowning kids to gun shots is crazy. There is no need for assault weapons in the hands of average citizens.

    Bookmark   July 25, 2012 at 7:17PM
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hamiltongardener(CAN 6a)

Just a little lopsided...

    Bookmark   July 25, 2012 at 8:32PM
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heri_cles

An opinion piece that lists 8 mass-shootings outside of the US in how many decades? Three? Versus how many mass-shootings inside the US? Per year?

Exactly maddie, We have had more shooting this summer in Chicago than that all who were killed on that list.

Gun violence is an intractable problem for many reasons but one of those reasons certainly is the proliferation and the rise a gun culture that identifies with Right Wing political values. Add to that a long list, including segregation, poverty, lack of educational and vocational opportunities, and the exploitation of violence for profit in movies, games and other media.

Guns are not cool in my book and I d not respect people who keep them around without good reason or carry them in anticipation of confrontations that they are more likely to instigate than to prevent.

    Bookmark   July 25, 2012 at 9:12PM
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youngquinn_gw

FLGYPSY you need to check your info. In the 16 years since the Port Arthrur Massacre Australia has not had ANY mass shootings.
That is what can happen when you tighten up your gun control laws

    Bookmark   July 25, 2012 at 10:05PM
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elvis

Posted by heri_cles 10 (My Page) on Wed, Jul 25, 12 at 21:12

"An opinion piece that lists 8 mass-shootings outside of the US in how many decades? Three? Versus how many mass-shootings inside the US? Per year?
Exactly maddie, We have had more shooting this summer in Chicago than that all who were killed on that list."

So, the gun ban in Chicago isn't working. Now what?

    Bookmark   July 25, 2012 at 10:22PM
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heri_cles

Did you even bother to read my post before responding?
I never suggested a "gun ban" and I listed several factors that contribute to the problem of gun violence....and I am sure there are many more.

I don't have the answers but I think one way to start would be to outlaw the manufacture and import of certain assault weapons and certain ammunition.

There are many things that can be done to improve the condition of the cities that our families fled from years ago and left for dead, but Republicans would never agree to spend their tax money for the benefit of blacks and Hispanics.
No "freebies" as Romney likes to say. No economic stimulus or spending on teachers, police, firemen, old school buildings and park district buildings. old streets and alleys and lighting, old bridges, etc.
Republicans like to invest in stocks but not in the stock of our country, especially places like the rust belt cities where many of us were born and raised.

    Bookmark   July 26, 2012 at 12:30AM
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elvis

Of course I read your post, and hear what you are saying. You simply chose a very poor example to illustrate your point: shootings in Chicago.

    Bookmark   July 26, 2012 at 12:41AM
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Lady_Brat

"""""""""""Lady Brat brings this thread to its illogical conclusion, buying guns and stuff with the intention of killing a bunch of people is just like a child accidentally drowning FFS."

And you ink show your lack of reading comprehension by your 'illogical conclusion'.

"""""""""""FLGYPSY you need to check your info. In the 16 years since the Port Arthrur Massacre Australia has not had ANY mass shootings.
That is what can happen when you tighten up your gun control laws"

I don't understand what I am supposed to check. The article I posted stated "New research suggests the government response to Port Arthur was a waste of public money and has made no difference to the country's gun-related death rates." I took that to mean that the government's response was basically saying what I said......"If a person's desire to commit a hideous crime is strong enough they will find a way around laws." The reason the Port Arthur massacre took place wasn't because of the lack of gun laws, but because a person's desire to commit the atrocity was strong enough that he would find a way regardless. Were the number of deaths by guns high in Australia before the gun laws were tightened? If there wasn't a drastic decrease in gun deaths in Australia after they tightened up their gun control laws exactly what did that law accomplish and why was it needed? That is the understanding I received from the excerpt in the article.

Many of you seem to feel that anyone who believes in the "right to bear arms" is OK with anyone and everyone under any conditions walking around with a gun on their hip and another in the window of their vehicle. Just because our beliefs are different to yours regarding gun ownership in no way makes that assumption correct. There are many gun laws on the books already; what we need is enforcement of those laws, consequences for those not following them, responsibiltiy by parents who own guns to teach their children to respect the power of firearms and gun safety and to keep firearms out of chilrens reach to name a few, not more gun laws or guns being banned. Some states have changed their laws to allow felons and mental health patients to legally own guns which I don't entirely agree with but on the whole I feel our gun laws are sufficient.

    Bookmark   July 26, 2012 at 9:48AM
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youngquinn_gw

FLGYP you parrot off "new research " but know nothng of what is meant. what is your source??
I am telling you that we have had NO MASS KLLINGS since the Port Arthur Massacre.(16 years ago)and that is Australia wide.

    Bookmark   July 26, 2012 at 9:35PM
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alexrander

I saw a sound bite the other day with Mitt saying all that stuff was purchased illegally. But of course it was all purchased legally according to the many reports I read.

It was also suggested in the news that the 'kid' possibly used some student grant money to pay for the weapons and ammunition.

About the kid- I personally think he was faking his behavior at his court hearing. What I wouldn't do to see someone stick a nice old fashioned hat pin in him to see if that made him perk up while he was sitting there.

On the other hand, that is the age that schizophrenia often shows up. But then I remember the interview with the owner of a gun store he visited - and that guy had remembered him and had no clue that he was mentally unstable. Perhaps he is bi-polar with schizophrenic leanings.

I do think he knew he was harming people. Of course I think that about Mitt too.

    Bookmark   July 27, 2012 at 1:54AM
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Embothrium(USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA)

>No economic stimulus or spending on teachers, police, firemen, old school buildings and park district buildings. old streets and alleys and lighting, old bridges, etc.
Republicans like to invest in stocks but not in the stock of our countryThey do like to invest in old rich guys.

    Bookmark   July 27, 2012 at 3:42PM
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heri_cles

"elvis" responded:

So, the gun ban in Chicago isn't working. Now what?

You simply chose a very poor example to illustrate your point: shootings in Chicago.

No, the "gun ban" in Chicago and the fact that it was supposedly not working was your point.
You failed to comprehend the points I made, but that is fine, I'd just as soon you did not bother commenting on them.

    Bookmark   July 27, 2012 at 3:59PM
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althea_gw

This article says Holmes was under psychiatric care and that this revelation violates the gag order.

DENVER - The former graduate student accused in the deadly Colorado movie theater shooting was being treated by a psychiatrist at the university where he studied, according to court papers filed Friday.

Here is a link that might be useful: strib

    Bookmark   July 27, 2012 at 4:01PM
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lily316(z5PA)

They captured another wannabe Joker threatening Pitney Bowes in Maryland today. This loser had a gazillion guns in HIS arsenal. He said he was the real joker and he was going to blow everyone up. Don't take away my guns...

    Bookmark   July 27, 2012 at 4:06PM
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