Determinate vs. Indeterminate?

If you go to the top of this first page and click on the FAQ link you'll find that the very first FAQ has to do with the difference between det and indet plant habits.

If your questions aren't answered with the FAQ please come back and post here in your own thread.

Carolyn, who notes that there are some other good FAQ's there as well. ( smile)

Sorry, you're right. Didn't mean to bother, just hadn't had enough caffeine yet this morning. I'll go read...

jamie, why don't you come over to the Rocky Mt. forum we don't even have an FAQ. We just answer questions. :)

The tomato thread should be starting soon.

Here is a link that might be useful: Rocky Mt. forum

Determinates grow to a certain size and will ripen all their fruit in a two or three week period and then stop. Indeterminates keep on going and going until frost.

We just answer questions. :)

****

We did here in the Tomato Forum as well, for many years. But there were certain questions that were asked all the time that it made sense to do some FAQ's to save n typing and then to be sure the person knew that they could come back to their own thread to ask more if the FAQ didn't answer all the questions.

And plant habit was one of the most oft questions, along with leaf forms, as well as how to prevent cross pollination as well as starting from seed, so several of us here, most have left now, got involved in adding those FAQ's b/c as you can see from the content, it sure saves a lot of typing. ( smile)

Carolyn,

Jamie,

Your questions aren't silly and the information given in the FAQ gives limited info and isn't clear or completely accurate in all regards ...

For example it says, "determinate varieties of tomatoes, also called 'bush' tomatoes, are varieties that are bred to grow to a compact height (approx. 4 feet)."

Well, determinates can grow much shorter than 4 feet and taller than 4 feet as well. There is no typical height assigned to "determinate," and to confuse the issue further, some varieties which already are designated "determinate" (Celebrity, for example) then have the word "bush" added in front when the breeder comes up with an even more compact version (Bush Celebrity, for example).

Furthermore, bushiness or short stature doesn't automatically connotate "determinate" as many dwarf varieties are indeed less than 4 feet tall at full maturity, are quite bushy, and yet remain fully indeterminate. There again, just reading the GW FAQ might leave you misinformed or under-informed. So, your questions aren't silly at all.

The GW FAQ also says determinates "stop growing when fruit sets on the terminal or top bud, ripen all their crop at or near the same time (usually over a 2 week period), and then die."

The specifics of the growth habit as described in the FAQ again may leave you misinformed or under-informed because while there are determinate varieties terminate fruit production and ripen all within a short time frame, there are other determinates that indeed terminate each growing tip in a terminal flower cluster, yet continue sending out new side shoots that continue producing flowers and fruit over an extended season even though each new shoot terminates the same definitive way.

Then the FAQ gives Rutgers among examples of determinate tomatoes even though Rutgers comes in both determinate and indeterminate forms and gives Big Boy as an example of indeterminate when there is indeed a variety called Bush Big Boy.

Well, enough about the FAQ. Let's look at "determinate" and "indeterminate."

See next post ...

Jamie, here is a post I cut and pasted from another Web site where our friend Keith condensed it thus:

Indeterminate: The primary shoot of a young tomato plant produces 5 to 10 leaves, then produces a flower cluster. Each flower cluster is referred to as a 'hand'. In indeterminate cultivars, the shoot continues to grow upward and flower clusters appear to develop to the side of a main shoot or main stem. In greenhouses, main stems are sometimes allowed to grow indefinitely and can reach 10 to 20 feet in length. In order to make harvest easier, older leaves are picked off and the bare stems lowered to the ground. Only the youngest 6 to 7 feet of plant growth, which includes the developing fruit clusters, are trained upright. In this training system, that vegetative side shoots or suckers which form in leaf axils are removed.

Although indeterminate plants appear to have a single main stem, this is actually not the case. The growth of the primary shoot ends with the formation of the first flower. Upward growth continues because the last leaf initiated before the flower cluster (which actually grows to occupy a position above the cluster) produces a side shoot. This side shoot produces three more leaves before it terminates in a flower cluster. The process of initiating new growth from a side shoot of the last leaf initiated before the flower cluster continues indefinitely, giving the appearance of a mainstem with a flower cluster between every three leaves.

In determinate cultivars, the process differs in that the side shoot above the first flower cluster produces 0 to 2 leaves and a flower cluster but no further vegetative shoots. This ends the upward growth of the plant, making the apparent main stem much shorter. Many side shoots arise from the primary shoot, giving the plant a bushy appearance, but each eventually terminates in a flower cluster. The simultaneous growth of many flower clusters promotes earliness and concentrates fruit maturity compared to indeterminates. Shoots of semi-determinate plants produce several flower clusters to the side of an apparent main stem, like indeterminates, but eventually the shoot terminates in a flower cluster, as in determinate plants.

So the jest is
indeterminate = 3 or more nodes between flower
determinate = 0 to 2 nodes between flowers
kctomato

[Nodes are the leaf joints where the leaf stems form out from the main growing stem. Then new side shoots appear in the crotch (node) of the leaf/main stem to form new meristems.]

I hope that helps. If you have any additional questions of if anything is confusing, please continue to ask questions. Keith is rather busy right now, but eventually he will see these messages and can answer you in detail.

Bill

Bill, I just wanted to note that the FAQ here on indet and det were done before I ever started posting here and was not done by any of us that you know.Actually I can't remember when I last read it and only quickly read the first paragraph or so before mentioning it.

Yes, Keith's explanation is much more complete but sometimes, especially for folks new to tomato growing, too much on ANY topic can be overload in some cases. And I think you know what I mean b/c you've seen it before when someone responds and says, essentially, just give me the basics. ( smile)

Carolyn

agreed

Really, I absolutely understand how tedious it gets answering the same questions over and over (having been a regular of the forums a long time ago), and Carolyn was absolutely right to remind me to check the FAQ first, which I normally do. There was plenty of information in the FAQ to answer my initial question, and that paved the way for me to find the additional information provided by Bill very interesting and informative (I'm a "no such thing as too much info" person though). So thank you to both of you...between the FAQ and the extra info, I feel quite well educated now (and my tomatoes thank you too, though they may not know it yet!). All that info will be very important when I'm planting and pruning, so I'm glad I asked.

jaliranchr, I do "lurk" on the RM forum occasionally, so I'm sure I'll "see" you over there as the growing season gets going - thanks for the invite. :-)

I'm starting my tomato seeds this weekend...here's hoping all goes well...

Good luck with your seed starting, Jamie.

And it gets more complicated regarding determinate plants, because in general, you shouldn't prune them above the first fruit set, because obviously you'd be reducing the new side shoot growth on which the balance of your crop will set. BUT, breeders will advise pruning certain determinate varieties to produce a higher quality fruit and extremely rampant determinates. Amelia is an example of such a determinate cultivar.

So ... more on all that kind of stuff is available as you get deeper into the hobby.

Bill

Oh, good Bill caught it...thanks Bill.;)

When Jamie mentioned the infamous pruning my first thought was oh, oh, better duck Jamie! ;) It's one of those hotly debated issues.

Dave

PS: There is a FAQ on it too. And yes, it's old and yes, it's far from ideal but it does cover the basics. ;)

I read the pruning FAQ too...as well as the others up there. Last year I was advised to prune my tomatoes when they just weren't setting fruit by August (local gardeners swore it was the best way to force them into fruiting since it was late in the season). I did prune them, without any knowledge of what I was doing, and it did indeed seem to hasten the fruiting process. So I figured I'd better learn more about that this year so I wasn't just chopping off the tops as I did last year. Though I am starting from seed this year, and my seedlings will grow out in the greenhouse, so perhaps late fruiting won't be so much of an issue if I get them started early...I'm hoping for earlier fruits this year, even if it's only a week or so.

Thanks for being nice about it, guys - I had no idea pruning was a debate around here, since it seems to be common practice for our local gardeners (every single one told me to do that last year). Good to know!

jamie, why don't you come over to the Rocky Mt. forum we don't even have an FAQ. We just answer questions. :)
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Then why didn't you answer it?

* Posted by oregon_veg 8 (My Page) on
Fri, Feb 22, 08 at 20:16

jamie, why don't you come over to the Rocky Mt. forum we don't even have an FAQ. We just answer questions. :)
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Then why didn't you answer it?

(BEG) because I'm one of them, oregon. Bill answered the question quite well. Why shouldn't I recruit for the regional board. Isn't like I'm recruiting for an offsite board like others are known to do. :P

because I'm one of them, oregon. Bill answered the question quite well.
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Only AFTER your post.
ò¿ò
~

BTW, This isn't the end-all of all boards. There is intelligent life out there!

BTW, This isn't the end-all of all boards. There is intelligent life out there!

*****

Absolutely.

Two years ago a ship with three of them landed in my back yard.

Very intelligent.

Carolyn, but none of them confessed to posting at message type sites online. LOL

>"Only AFTER your post.">"Two years ago a ship with three of them landed in my back yard. Very intelligent."

>"Two years ago a ship with three of them landed in my back yard. Very intelligent."Why don't you have a close encounter of the 3rd kind? Sit down with a legal yellow pad and have two headings, as in why me, why not me, and then come to grips with why you're either going to or not going to have such an encounter based on your own psychological profile. ( smile)

No, Earl was not one of the three. These were genuine aliens and Earl is earth/soil based.

Chocolate hallucination? I think not. LOL

Carolyn, whose brother and father swore they did see a UFO or two in the sky and my father had no sense of humor, never drank, conservative beyond belief and described what he saw. I was fascinated.

Is there a possiblity the dairy cows up thar got into a little Jimsom weed?

Is there a possiblity the dairy cows up thar got into a little Jimsom weed?

****

Nope, no Jimson weed here. But I just might do a psychological profile on you anyway b'c I think I know you well enough by now to do so. ( smile)

Carolyn, where for a change the sun shone brightly today and I was able to confirm that at least 12 of my deer herd survived hunting season last Fall. Per normal, the wild turkeys were feeding amongst them.

Two years ago a ship with three of them landed in my back yard.
Very intelligent.
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And it's responses like that are the reason I hardly ever come here anymore.

Well, I suppose we could all take ourselves oh so seriously, and never have any fun in here. Puh-leeeze.