If...Thinking about the variables

Elly_NJ(NJ z6)July 16, 2013

If Trayvon Martin had a weapon and killed Zimmerman because he felt threatened when Zimmerman followed him, would he have been exonerated by the stand your ground defense?

If Trayvon Martin had been white, would Zimmerman have followed him and alerted the police?

If this trial had a change of venue, do you think the verdict would have been the same?

I work with teenagers who are sick about what happened to Martin and that Zimmerman got off free.

I am sick and ashamed by the "justice" rendered. I hope Zimmerman spends the rest of his life looking over his shoulder, wondering if someone is following him. I don't wish him harm, but i wish him that fear.

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pnbrown

"If Trayvon Martin had been white, would Zimmerman have followed him and alerted the police?"

I think yes. Z is a wannabe cop. Following suspicious looking people is his thing. He'd have followed a kid in a hoodie of whatever description. In another situation whether it would have escalated to the unfortunate conclusion cannot be known.

    Bookmark   July 16, 2013 at 8:58PM
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Elly_NJ(NJ z6)

Thanks for your thoughts, pnb. I don't think a young white boy would have gotten his attention. My opinion.

    Bookmark   July 16, 2013 at 9:30PM
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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

If this trial had a change of venue, do you think the verdict would have been the same?

That would depend on where in Fla the trial was held. Perhaps in one of the counties that went Democratic in 2012 there would have been a different verdict.

    Bookmark   July 16, 2013 at 9:46PM
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demifloyd(8)

That would depend on where in Fla the trial was held. Perhaps in one of the counties that went Democratic in 2012 there would have been a different verdict.

*

Democrats are more likely to convict someone who is hispanic/white?

*

I don't think Martin's race had anything to do with Zimmerman's actions.

If Trayvon Martin had been wearing khaki slacks and a Ralph Lauren plaid shirt, I suspect that maybe Zimmerman wouldn't have considered him so suspicious.

Conversely, if a white teenager were wearing a hoodie and dressed exactly like Martin, I think Zimmerman would have been just as likely to follow him, too.

That's why I think those that say they didn't think this was about race are most likely correct--although I don't know anymore than any of you know, which NONE of us "know."

I think it was the age, the hoodie, and perhaps other identifying factors--maybe the gait, or the way Martin walked or carried himself, that made Zimmerman take notice.

My understanding is that Zimmerman did not mention race until he was asked to describe the person in question.
Of course we know that NBC doctored the police tape by changing around the sequence of ZImmerman's conversation with the authorities to make it sound like he was a racist.'
However, once he realized that this young man was black, and wearing a hoodie, he was suspicious.

Would Zimmerman have been suspicious of a 50 year old black man in a tuxedo? I doubt it.

I do not believe that it was race alone that initially made him follow this young man.

I'm thinking it was probably a combination of factors, perhaps including race, but not entirely race. It was based on past experience and knowledge.

Was it wrong to be suspicious of a young black man wearing a hoodie?

I don't know if anyone can answer that question for anyone else, depending on the circumstances.

There are all kinds of variables, and unfortunately a terrible tragedy occurred and an innocent life was taken.

Maybe because of this others may act differently under different circumstances.

This post was edited by demifloyd on Tue, Jul 16, 13 at 22:02

    Bookmark   July 16, 2013 at 9:57PM
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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Democrats are more likely to convict someone who is hispanic/white?

What in the world are you talking about?

My thought is that a Democratc-voting county would be more likely to take civil liberties seriously rather than be sympathetic with vigiliantism.

    Bookmark   July 16, 2013 at 10:04PM
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demifloyd(8)

Civil liberty wasn't on trial.
Vigilantism wasn't on trial.

George Zimmerman was on trial charged with second degree murder.

That is all the jury was charged with deciding guilt or innocence.

Democrats do not have an advantage in performing that task.

    Bookmark   July 16, 2013 at 10:09PM
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jlhug

The FBI report I linked earlier says that there was gang active in the area. That gang wore black clothes and hoodies. I think Zimmerman was focused on the clothes. I don't think race made a difference to him.

I would hope that the outcome of the trial would be the same no matter where the trial was held if the same evidence was presented. The juror's job is to leave all their bias and preconceived notions at the door to the courtroom. I would hope that if a juror couldn't do that they would say so.

Did you know that there was a black person in the jury selection pool that was dismissed by the prosecution because he/she listened to Fox news?

    Bookmark   July 16, 2013 at 10:10PM
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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Civil liberty wasn't on trial.
Vigilantism wasn't on trial.

One's view on those topics would influence how the cases presented by the prosecutor and defense were evaluated.

    Bookmark   July 16, 2013 at 10:16PM
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demifloyd(8)

Posted by nancy_in_venice_ca SS24 z10 CA (My Page) on
Tue, Jul 16, 13 at 22:16

Civil liberty wasn't on trial.
Vigilantism wasn't on trial.

One's view on those topics would influence how the cases presented by the prosecutor and defense were evaluated.

*

If those factors were important to the prosecutor and defense they would have factored that in when selecting the jury.

As noted--this is our justice system.

You don't have to like it, and can second guess the jurors' decisions all day long.

It is inconsequential what you or I think about the jury's decision.

    Bookmark   July 16, 2013 at 10:18PM
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esh_ga

That gang wore black clothes and hoodies. I think Zimmerman was focused on the clothes. I don't think race made a difference to him.

Let me guess ... the gang members were black. So if he focused on the clothes and thought it was a gang member and the gang members were black ... then race didn't make a difference? Or he just didn't think about that part?

    Bookmark   July 16, 2013 at 10:18PM
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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

If those factors were important to the prosecutor and defense they would have factored that in when selecting the jury.

Not necessarily -- that would depend on what other factors that the defense and prosecutors were concerned with and how important they felt they were in relation to their case. Gender, race/ethnicity, religion, or a number of other factors may have had priority.

    Bookmark   July 16, 2013 at 10:22PM
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demifloyd(8)

So, what is your point, Nancy?

That Democrats make superior jurors?

Or that Democrats would be more likely to convict a white/hispanic defendant?

    Bookmark   July 16, 2013 at 10:24PM
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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Demi, I was resonding to one of Elly's questions, and I clearly stated my point.

You are the one that seems determined to discredit my opinion and/or read more into my comments.

I stand by what I wrote and the reasons I gave for my thinking.

    Bookmark   July 16, 2013 at 10:27PM
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demifloyd(8)

I was trying to understand exactly what your point was

If your comments were no more than a response about change of venue then okay. The comment about democrats still begs the questions I have asked but if that iis something you do not want to expound on that is fine.

I am not trying to discredit you.

    Bookmark   July 16, 2013 at 11:01PM
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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

but if that iis something you do not want to expound on that is fine.

I answered above - concern re civil liberties and antagonism towards vigilantism, perhaps.

    Bookmark   July 16, 2013 at 11:06PM
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demifloyd(8)

Edited to remove double post.

This post was edited by demifloyd on Tue, Jul 16, 13 at 23:26

    Bookmark   July 16, 2013 at 11:10PM
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lily316(z5PA)

If the prosecution dismissed a black potential juror because she watches Fox news, I would definitely agree with that decision. Anyone who regularly watches Fox has a totally unrealistic take on the news.

Eric Holder had to have a talk with his son on how to walk...not too fast, not too slow like he's lurking. He said his dad had that same talk with him, and he never thought he'd have to.

    Bookmark   July 17, 2013 at 3:04AM
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brute(Florida 9B)

Here's a variable for ya...
If the authorities had chosen not to ignore Martin's previous crimes, he might have been "detained" elsewhere on that fateful night.

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.vdare.com/posts/mccain-how-a-miami-school-crime-cover-up-policy-led-to-trayvon-martin-s-death

    Bookmark   July 17, 2013 at 8:07AM
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demifloyd(8)

Oh. My. Goodness.

Trayvon Martin was caught with stolen jewelry at school.

While this has nothing to do with the night in question, it sure paints Martin in a different light than he has been portrayed by the media and others.

From the link, VDare July 15, 2013:

"Both of TrayvonâÂÂs suspensions during his junior year at Krop High involved crimes that could have led to his prosecution as a juvenile offender. However, Chief Charles Hurley of the Miami-Dade School Police Department (MDSPD) in 2010 had implemented a policy that reduced the number of criiminal [sic] reports, manipulating statistics to create the appearance of a reduction in crime within the school system. Less than two weeks before MartinâÂÂs death, the school system commended Chief Hurley for âÂÂdecreasing school-related juvenile delinquency by an impressive 60 percent for the last six months of 2011.â What was actually happening was that crimes were not being reported as crimes, but instead treated as disciplinary infractions.

In October 2011, after a video surveillance camera caught Martin writing graffiti on a door, MDSPD Office Darryl Dunn searched MartinâÂÂs backpack, looking for the marker he had used. Officer Dunn found 12 pieces of womenâÂÂs jewelry and a manâÂÂs watch, along with a flathead screwdriver the officer described as a âÂÂburglary tool.â The jewelry and watch, which Martin claimed he had gotten from a friend he refused to name, matched a description of items stolen during the October 2011 burglary of a house on 204th Terrace, about a half-mile from the school. However, because of Chief HurleyâÂÂs policy âÂÂto lower the arrest rates,â as one MDSPD sergeant said in an internal investigation, the stolen jewerly was instead listed as âÂÂfound propertyâ and was never reported to Miami-Dade Police who were investigating the burglary. Similarly, in February 2012 when an MDSPD officer caught Martin with a small plastic bag containing marijuana residue, as well as a marijuana pipe, this was not treated as a crime, and instead Martin was suspended from school."

    Bookmark   July 17, 2013 at 10:07AM
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silversword(9A)

Interesting thread.

Zimmerman aside, there is something to be said for a (dare I say punk kid?) who feels reasonably invincible after getting away with theft, vandalism and drug charges and (quite possibly) feeling he can "get away" with whatever is next.

Too bad Zimmerman had a gun.

No matter how "bad" a person may be as a teen there is mostly hope for rehabilitation. Martin never got that chance.

But....

How many chances does a person deserve? Wrong place, wrong time. I've seen it again and again, people who give their kids "chances" and then again and again; rude behavior, destructive behavior, and the parents make excuses and get their kids off.

No accountability.

I'm still saddened by his death, but am feeling more responsibility lies with parents/school than entirely on Zim's shoulders at this point. He may have pulled the trigger but Martin was playing roulette...

    Bookmark   July 17, 2013 at 10:50AM
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jodik_gw

Maybe Trayvon was too young to fully appreciate the implications of racism in what is supposed to be a free country for all citizens... as a teen, why would he think he couldn't, or shouldn't, have been in that place at that exact time, walking along, wearing what half the other teens in America wear, minding his own business?

How many of us would think twice about walking home from a mini-mart after an evening purchase of a snack, through a residential neighborhood we belonged in? How many of us would rethink our clothing or consider our race before stepping out to buy an evening snack? Probably not a lot of us.

How many of us have ever been forced to have a talk with our children directly related to who we are, to what color our skin is or what clothing fads we follow as teenagers? Probably not very many of us.

Now we're expected to map out our lives prior to making a move because there might be some armed wannabe-couldn't-make-it-to-cop out there profiling and stalking?

And how does reaching into Trayvon's past even enter into this case? It's not at all relevant. He was not in the commission of any crime... unless you consider it a crime to be black, be a teenager, purchase a snack, or walk home.

Here is a link that might be useful: The Race Card...

    Bookmark   July 17, 2013 at 1:28PM
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elvis

"How many of us would think twice about walking home from a mini-mart after an evening purchase of a snack, through a residential neighborhood we belonged in? How many of us would rethink our clothing or consider our race before stepping out to buy an evening snack?"

I would.

    Bookmark   July 17, 2013 at 11:25PM
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lily316(z5PA)

I walked my dogs at midnight tonight for three miles thru the streets of my town. Since it was almost 100 degrees till then, it was my only opportunity. I was hoping I wasn't being profiled by a vigilante neighborhood watch wannabe.

    Bookmark   July 18, 2013 at 3:06AM
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jmc01

"How many of us would think twice about walking home from a mini-mart after an evening purchase of a snack, through a residential neighborhood we belonged in? How many of us would rethink our clothing or consider our race before stepping out to buy an evening snack?"
I would."

I won't ever choose to GO to the mini mart that's only 5 blocks from my house. Someone was murdered/shot there last year. The place doesn't need my business...ever. I'll choose other options.

Choose - choice...key words.

    Bookmark   July 18, 2013 at 6:03AM
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Elly_NJ(NJ z6)

Racism? Nawwww..

Here is a link that might be useful: What's a $u@kin

    Bookmark   July 18, 2013 at 6:38AM
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pnbrown

Petty burglary, wow, how very ethnic. Not. This is what teenage boys do, or used to do, at least. For middle-class kids it never gets to an arrest, or rarely. It's a phase that most kids outgrow, like they outgrow trying to haze other kids to distraction, or torturing bugs.

Later they become middle-aged adults who can't remember what teenagers are like. Not to say that burglary and vandalism should be tolerated, but it is in no remote way a mitigating factor in manslaughter.

There has rarely been a case that so strongly illustrates why inadequately-trained people should not have permits to carry. It's one thing to have a gun at home or in the glove-box, it's another to have it always handy. In truth, it makes the difference between real self-defense and manslaughter.

    Bookmark   July 18, 2013 at 7:03AM
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jodik_gw

So... white kids don't engage in petty theft? White kids don't wear hooded sweatshirts? White kids don't walk after dark in their own neighborhoods?

"Later they become middle-aged adults who can't remember what teenagers are like."

I think that might have a little to do with the national conversation...

Even I can remember what it was like to be young, and sometimes foolish... and I'm the one with the damaged memory!

    Bookmark   July 18, 2013 at 8:47AM
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demifloyd(8)

Posted by lily316 z5PA (My Page) on
Thu, Jul 18, 13 at 3:06

I walked my dogs at midnight tonight for three miles thru the streets of my town. Since it was almost 100 degrees till then, it was my only opportunity. I was hoping I wasn't being profiled by a vigilante neighborhood watch wannabe.

*
Well, if you are in as good a shape as you say you are, I wouldn't wear a hoodie and walk around apartment buildings that had been burglarized. Of course most people don't burglarize with dogs in tow, so you're probably good.

    Bookmark   July 18, 2013 at 9:22AM
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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Those using VDARE as a source should be aware that it's a white nationalist / hate site according to the Southern Poverty Law Center.

SPLC: VDARE

    Bookmark   July 18, 2013 at 9:47AM
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demifloyd(8)

I copied part of the information from Brute's link.

Is the information posted false, Nancy?

    Bookmark   July 18, 2013 at 9:49AM
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Roughseas

Imagine if Zimmerman's previous arrests ( for assaulting a police officer), the order of protection against him , and being fired for being too rough as a bouncer had been admitted in the trial. And then there's the cousin who says zimmerman sexually assaulted her.
Not to mention the drugs that zimmerman was on.

No wonder people believe the judge and prosecutor threw the trial! the prosecutor didn't even present the most likely scenerio- that zimmerman jumped martin and then lost the fight.

    Bookmark   July 18, 2013 at 10:20AM
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october17(5chgo)

demi: "Is the information posted false, Nancy?"

I think it is true demi.

But you'll never hear it in MSM, lest they be labeled, as, well, you know, racist. And then boycotted, and blah blah blah. And the esteemed black community "leaders" will get their mugs in the news again, and, well, you know, stir it all up.

    Bookmark   July 18, 2013 at 10:32AM
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david52_gw

None of its new information, it was all reported in 2012.

What is new is the twist - slamming the school system and the police for not throwing the book at Martin - get him in jail for graffiti and having a plastic bag with tiny amounts of marijuana residue.

Because, see, if he was in jail where he belonged, he wouldn't have gotten shot.

    Bookmark   July 18, 2013 at 11:00AM
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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Is the information posted false, Nancy? But you'll never hear it in MSM

A recognized hate site has an alleged revelation that has not been reported in the resonsible media.

I think you have your answer right there.

If you prefer to continue using a recognized hate site as your source of information, that's your right. But don't be surprised if you receive challenges because of your source, and challenges regarding your biases -- considering a recognized hate site as a legitimate source of information.

    Bookmark   July 18, 2013 at 11:06AM
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jodik_gw

"Because, see, if he was in jail where he belonged, he wouldn't have gotten shot."

In other words... institutionalized racism... something Nancy mentioned well over a year ago in a conversation, that becomes ever more prevalent within today's society as greed sucks the life out of it... privatizing the prison system, bulking up law enforcement, killing public education, legislating for laws that legalize murder, etc...

    Bookmark   July 18, 2013 at 11:08AM
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demifloyd(8)

Posted by nancy_in_venice_ca SS24 z10 CA (My Page) on ati
Thu, Jul 18, 13 at 11:06

Is the information posted false, Nancy?

But you'll never hear it in MSM

A recognized hate site has an alleged revelation that has not been reported in the resonsible media.

I think you have your answer right there.

If you prefer to continue using a recognized hate site as your source of information, that's your right. But don't be surprised if you receive challenges because of your source, and challenges regarding your biases -- considering a recognized hate site as a legitimate source of information.

*

I didn't find the source myself.

I don't have any interest and have not before visited "hate sites" including many of the ones I've seen as links here about George Bush and Dick Cheney.

I clicked on the link provided by Brute, and the quoted article appeared to be me to be legitimate.

So, I am asking you again, is the information I posted from that website about Trayvon Martin being caught at school with stolen jewelry and a tool that could be used in a burglary, FALSE information or not?

Lectures about sources from you aside, IS THE INFORMATION CORRECT OR INCORRECT?

You are the one that has indicated an issue with this information.

I just checked and now there are many differing accounts.
I imagine it will be difficult since the school did not report to authorities as is usually done, or as is done in other jurisdictions.

If anyone can confirm that Martin was NOT CAUGHT with stolen jewelry at school, and was NOT CAUGHT with marijuana at school, then please advise.

In any event, as I HAVE STATED, it doesn't have anything to do with the night he was killed.

It does have to do with the media's intentional reporting and portrayal of Martin, and Zimmerman, neither of which I suspect is entirely accurate, and which I suspect is biased.

This post was edited by demifloyd on Thu, Jul 18, 13 at 11:22

    Bookmark   July 18, 2013 at 11:13AM
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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

IS THE INFORMATION CORRECT OR INCORRECT?

I leave you to defend your hate-site source.

Personally, I would be embarrassed to have taken a hate site at face value and then defend the reporting of a hate site. But have at it.

You might also want to reread David's comments above.

Have fun with VDARE.

    Bookmark   July 18, 2013 at 11:24AM
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demifloyd(8)

Guess Trayvon wasn't the little angel he's been portrayed, then.

    Bookmark   July 18, 2013 at 11:26AM
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Roughseas

really sad that a teenager carrying skittles and ice tea is labeled the aggressor after he is stalked by an armed man with a history of violence.

    Bookmark   July 18, 2013 at 11:35AM
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ohiomom

None of this would have happened if Trayvon had been "packing", he could have turned around "stood his ground" and blown Zimmerman to hell. Too bad he was not armed too.

If you have a gun, by all means keep it and carry it and every stranger you see who you perceive to be a threat ... aim and fire.

What a world we live in ...

    Bookmark   July 18, 2013 at 11:48AM
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frank_il

"Lectures about sources from you aside, IS THE INFORMATION CORRECT OR INCORRECT?"

I believe that several of your "sources" have been proved incorrect. You know, like when you tried to contend that a picture of a 33 year old tattooed rapper was Trayvon. Or when you tried to contend that the drink that he purchased was part of a drug "cocktail" known as purple drank.

Oh yeah, your sources have been gold up until this point.

    Bookmark   July 18, 2013 at 11:49AM
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Roughseas

well, my previous post was deleted. Someone didnt like a reasonable discussion on why people lie. I'm off, may stop by in a few days, but maybe not. If lying is protected, but talking about lying is banned, why post?

    Bookmark   July 18, 2013 at 11:50AM
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silversword(9A)

I don't walk in my neighborhood at night alone.

Period.

I wouldn't walk to any of the stores near my house, at night, alone. Nor would I allow my son out at night to walk to the store, alone. No matter where we lived.

But that doesn't matter, because it's not the FAULT of the person out walking at night that someone engaged them in an altercation and injured/killed them.

victim blaming, it's not pretty

    Bookmark   July 18, 2013 at 11:57AM
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adoptedbyhounds

Speaking of variables, I wonder how many moms on the jury
come from backgrounds where injuries like Zimmerman's are considered "inconsequential."

Several moms here have been dismissive of Zimmerman's injuries. I can't imagine ever getting to that point. Where I come from, cleaning up bloodied kids who get into fist fights isn't a variable I'm familiar with. The only martial arts I know about involve signing kids up for lessons, and taking those kids to meets where they wear uniforms, earn belts, and adults keep score. I don't even know what MMA is, but apparently with that "variable" in one's background, broken noses and skulls slammed into concrete aren't even considered "real" injuries.

Zimmerman's injuries, and the violence that produced them will always strike me as a serious threat to the person sustaining them. I don't know how to "read" that kind of violence or where the attacker is going with it. I do know that if I had a son or daughter being straddled by a young man who had already broken his or her nose and slammed his or her head into concrete repeatedly, I would not question they were rightfully in fear for their lives. They would have no way that I know of, to know that the attack was going to slow down, or to escalate.

But from what I am reading here, some people DO know how to read such violence. Not surprisingly, they're the same folks who read minds and dismiss Zimmerman's injuries. George Zimmerman went hunting for a black person, "made it look like" Trayvon was the attacker, and called the cops ahead of time so they could find him at the crime scene.

Zimmerman was found not guilty of murder jury of his peers, who were smart enough to see through the state's preposterous theory. A different jury with different variables might not have been able to do that.

    Bookmark   July 18, 2013 at 1:40PM
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silversword(9A)

MMA is Mixed Martial Arts, and it can be a mix of some really old, traditional practices like Judo, Karate, etc. or it can be an all-out brutal smash fest. Depends on the sensei, depends on the student.

    Bookmark   July 18, 2013 at 3:31PM
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jodik_gw

When it comes to martial arts, a lot depends on the teacher... a black belt earned from one sensei is not always equal to a black belt earned by another sensei. The training can be very different, and even the style can vary.

A lot depend on the martial art. There are many different types, originating in various areas of the world, used for differing purposes, many evolved into the modern day fighting styles we see. Karate is very different than Jiu Jitsu, for example. They serve different purposes.

A quick Google brings up lists of varying martial arts, each one different than the next.

As for injuries... everyone should know that head wounds, even slight cuts to the skin, bleed more profusely than other parts of the body. And there's a vast difference between an adult and a child when it comes to injury. We don't expect little children to shake off slight injury, where we do expect most adults to be able to deal with what are considered slight injuries.

Evidence shows that Zimmerman had very slight injuries... consistent with the encounter... nothing involving concrete... though some media outlets have blown them way out of proportion.

    Bookmark   July 19, 2013 at 12:59PM
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