Everbearing Mangos - is it true?

mangodog(palm springs 9B)October 29, 2010

The recent blooming Rosigold discussion made me want to ask if anyone in the continental U.S. (especially in California where I live) has had more than one crop of mangoes in a calendar year, whether it be Thai-Everbearing, Choc anon, Nam Doc Mai or whatever other varieties supposedly perform in this manner.....

gratis....mangodog

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swrancher

Thats a good question, how about anyone in South Florida as well?

    Bookmark   October 29, 2010 at 11:12PM
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jfernandez(10B)

Maybe. I have a year and a half Ataulfo seedling from Mexico that has flowered three times this year. Last time in Sept. The nursery that I purchase the tree from said that it is common for these seedling to bear fruits, after two years, several times a year. The tree is four feet tall. I have snapped the flowers off to promote new growth but this time I let it hold one fruit for the hell of it.

    Bookmark   October 30, 2010 at 12:13AM
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mango_kush

Asian mangos are more prolific and sometimes large trees will have a sporadic offseason bloom. i would be wary of anyone trying to market a specific variety for this to hang your hat on happening though.

    Bookmark   October 30, 2010 at 7:28AM
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mangodog(palm springs 9B)

thanks, folks....but still no first hand reports of more than one annual crop. I specifically bought the Nam Doc Mai and Choc-anon for this reason....I guess time will tell.....I'm also going to guess that perhaps the tropics has less of a hot/cool season like we generally have and more like variations on summer, thus the trees would be more likely to generate multiple attempts at crops ??!!XX

Although JFernandez seems to have a tree at least flowering with that behavior, and I believe you're in LaHabra, right JF??? Keep us posted if you would....I'll order one of those puppies if you score more than one run in an inning......!

By the way, where'd ya get that Ataulfo????

mangodog

    Bookmark   October 30, 2010 at 11:15AM
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jfernandez(10B)

Mangodog,

I went to Exotica nursery in Vista, in April 2010, and I found the nursery East of Exotica, on vista way, name clauson. What caught my attention was a two year old eight foot mango tree on a box loaded with good size mangos. They had one in a 5g that was blooming so I took it. They told me it was a Mexican Ataulfo that would fruit next year.

baby ataulfo

    Bookmark   October 30, 2010 at 12:24PM
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rodneys

That mango doesn't look like an Ataulfo. It's shape is like a Nam Doc Mai.

    Bookmark   October 30, 2010 at 12:33PM
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jfernandez(10B)

hi Rodney,

This is definitely not a nam doc mai. It's an Ataulfo or a Manila seedling. Check out my friends 7 year old Ataulfo in Chino Hill.


ripe one

here is the tree

    Bookmark   October 30, 2010 at 3:32PM
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hmhausman(FL 10B)

I haven't experienced any ever bearing mangoes despite growing Chou Anon and Thai Everbearing. Thai Everbearing is beginning to bloom now. It has had fruit on it here in Florida at various times during the year, but it is not truly everbearing. It just bears sporadically. I am still waiting for the "miracle" of Chou Anon to show itself. Last year, in a ridiculously bad mango year, it didn't bloom once, never mind multiple times. I have heard that Zill's High Performance Plants does have them in pots presently and they are carrying fruit. It might be that they require the additional stress of containerized growing. So for those folks that are growing mangoes in pots, keep trying.

Harry

    Bookmark   October 30, 2010 at 4:36PM
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mangodog(palm springs 9B)

thanks jfernandez.....I love that pointy little tip on the Ataulfo, if in fact it is the Ataulfo...RodneyS is right, the fruit in your pic does look EXACTLY like the pics I've seen of Nam Doc Mai's shape....guess I should go on line and see what kind of description I can find on it....but you got a great looking tree there.....

So Exotica Nursery in Vista....ok....i've got a daughter and son-in-law that live down in San Diego...perhaps it's time to pay a little visit :)

Yes Harry, the "miracle" mango...maybe we should call it the Jesus Mango if ever lives up to it's rep!!!

I've also wondered if fertilizing a tree with something like Super Bloom would bring on a flowering at an odd time of year.......I'm just bound and determined to have a year round crop of mangoes....silly me....

mangodawg

    Bookmark   October 30, 2010 at 8:48PM
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mangodog(palm springs 9B)

JFernandez....I went on line and found at least 3 sites that said the Ataulfo was also called Manila, a 7 year old tree which I have, and my fruit looks nothing like your ataulfo....

Help, you experts out there......!

mangowoofie

    Bookmark   October 30, 2010 at 9:27PM
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hmhausman(FL 10B)

You all are arguing over matters that have no definite right or wrong answers. Manila/Ataulfo and Nam Doc Mai both collectively have different variations and varieties that maybe a result of seedling races created from seeds being planted out and then propagated when the sexually created offspring was expecially desireable. So, it largely depends on who is calling the name and where that name arose over the many years from where the mango was originally grown. If you all can figure the answer out with any more clarity or definity, please let me, and us all know. Good luck!

Harry

    Bookmark   October 30, 2010 at 10:09PM
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mango_kush

its a seedling that definitely doesnt have typical ataulfo characteristics, there are many seedling names, how variable they are is debatable. the typical ataulfo/manilla/Champagne/honey mango looks like this

your mango looks more like a birds beak, i think theres a common thai name for that

    Bookmark   October 31, 2010 at 2:53PM
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mangodog(palm springs 9B)

Thanks, Harry, I suppose there are many varieties of offspring with names thrown loosely around from place to place....

And Mango Kush - your photo looks exactly like my Lowe's bought Manila crop......

Now if I could only barter for some patience......

mangoD

    Bookmark   October 31, 2010 at 8:20PM
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mango_kush

Asian mangos are the only trees that seedling will come true. Indian mangos will not and have to be grafted.

Asian mango seedlings are Polyembryonic, meaning multiple shoots only one of which will be true to type. When seedlings are planted for rootstock like Turpentine, they (somehow) determine which shoot is true to type and clip the rest. Through this process inevitably some do not come true to type, and the same happens with seedling trees sold in nurseries. I think one of the reasons they get away with selling seedling Asian mangos trees is because even if they do come different from seed they are more likely to still be desirable, where Monoembryonic Indian mangos usually are not.

    Bookmark   November 1, 2010 at 10:32AM
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rodneys

Although not a mango, mangosteen also comes true from seed

    Bookmark   November 1, 2010 at 12:15PM
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mango_kush

Ive heard people from true tropical climates say they usually have mangos all year round, they only have two seasons really, wet and the dry. maybe Hawaii because its below the tropic of Cancer

    Bookmark   November 1, 2010 at 4:57PM
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jfernandez(10B)

Well, whatever it is it's as good as advertise, so far. These seedling are under a pound the nam doc mai I've seen in Socal. are well over a pound some up to two and a half pounds. The fruits on the tree that you see are a pound. Mangodog, I bought my Mexican Ataulfo from Clausen nursery not Exotica.

    Bookmark   November 1, 2010 at 11:45PM
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mango_kush

doesnt look exactly like the typical Nam Doc Mai propagated here to me either

NAM DOC MAI

it looks more oblong, like OKRUNG TONG

in "The Great Mango Book" Allen Susser depicts six basic shapes of the mango

Thai mango names are often descriptive, like "pikung" means "long arm" denoting a long mango, or "tong" which means "gold". since Thai uses a different alphabet its difficult to translate online but i would like to get a list of thai mango names and their translation.

    Bookmark   November 2, 2010 at 11:43AM
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mangodog(palm springs 9B)

thanks, jf and mk.....mangodog

    Bookmark   November 2, 2010 at 2:36PM
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mango_kush

to wit, one can plant an ataulfo seed, not select the sprout that is true to type, and end up with a mango similar ion shape to the typical nam doc mai. this does not make it nam doc mai, but an ataulfo seedling.

im sure if you look around for another ataulfo tree you will see its fruit are more oval then oblong (or you can just google images "ataulfo")

that particular mango

    Bookmark   November 2, 2010 at 6:25PM
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jfernandez(10B)

Mango kush, you are right! The OKRUNG TONG and the ATAULFO'S do look like twins!

I have a Thai friend in Santa Ana who has two huge nam doc mai trees, they are 25 years old. They are unbelievably sweet and fiberless, see if I can find the pics from last years crop.

    Bookmark   November 3, 2010 at 12:04AM
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jfernandez(10B)

Mango kush,

Here are some pics of the nam doc mai in California, they are huge about 2 to 3 pounds. My friend only has 5 left in the tree because of the funky weather we've been having all year. Last year at this time his tree was loaded but most of his Thai mangos ripen up in Sept. after a week of 100 degrees temperature. Last week it was 70F this week it's 100F again

    Bookmark   November 4, 2010 at 4:32PM
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stanofh

Sunset magazine's garden bible book always describes soucal Mangos' as small and shrubby,only sometimes bearing good fruit. THEY LIE!
Those pics show great tree's. Big enough-I have a White Sapote that size and cant eat all the fruit it has.

    Bookmark   November 8, 2010 at 3:12PM
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puglvr1(9b central FL)

Nice tree Jfernandez, congrats on the fruit!

Is it the angle of the camera...but your tree seems planted very close to that block wall...are you planning on pruning it vigorously to maintain it as a very small tree. Some of the pictures you posted shows them getting very large even in CA. Best of luck!

    Bookmark   November 9, 2010 at 7:52AM
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jfernandez(10B)

stanofh, they certainly are wrong about Socal. Indeed, mango trees thrive in Socal. There are so many fruiting trees...... they're just hiding in the ethnic communities i.e Santa Ana, La Habra, Anaheim, Garden Grove, Westminster, Los Angeles etc. Minosa Nursery is the best source for grafted mangos, they are the distributors of Pine Island Nursery. I love White Sapote but they can get rather large. I have the Suebelle variety which is a dwarf with superior taste.

puglvr1, yes I plan to follow Dr. Campbell's tipping and pruning advice. I love his videos here is the link:http://www.fairchildgarden.org/livingcollections/tropicalfruitprogram/jackfruit/Growing-a-Mango-Tree/
I want nothing to do with a 30 ft giant, I don't have the room.

    Bookmark   November 9, 2010 at 9:59PM
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puglvr1(9b central FL)

I am on the same page with you on that one and completely agree! I too prefer my trees short and wide. I have the room, but I prefer not to have to climb a ladder and use a pole...I'm very short,lol...Plus it makes it a easier to protect during our freezes.

    Bookmark   November 10, 2010 at 7:09AM
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jfernandez(10B)

stanofh,

to give you an idea of the size of the above nam doc mai here is a comparison to a large Southern California grown haden. Sunset magazine's couldn't be more wrong about Socal mangos. Both of these mangos have great size with exceptional taste, especially the nam doc mai.

    Bookmark   November 12, 2010 at 7:17PM
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jfernandez(10B)

puglvr1,

Here is a pic of my friends Mexican Ataulfo. We bought them in early April, my was a year old his was 6 months. He tipped his to about 6 inches and look at how this mango has grown in 7 months.

in April before he chooped it

new growth and it's been freezing down here for the last week ( low 60's daytime low 40's at night).


    Bookmark   November 23, 2010 at 9:01PM
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mostro(jax/9a)

Hello everyone:
I've never seen an everbearing mango tree. At least not one that was growing in the ground. I have however, seen mango trees in pots that produce fruits sometimes twice per year. I think that Harry's comment about the additional stress from the pot is probably right on. The pot might artificially cause the tree to fruit multiple times.

Now, about colder temperatures. My seedling mango trees (I have three of them), grow very late in to the fall and typically start flushing again very early in the spring. I have new growth on my trees right now and we are almost in December... So, it does not surprise me that mangos can grow well in many areas of Southern Cal...

I use to get terrible anthracnose damage on the fall/spring new growth, but I finally found a systemic fungicide that completely eliminates the problem. Thank god, I was about to give up on trying...

Good luck this winter!

    Bookmark   November 26, 2010 at 4:47PM
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Seoj

We have a 15 foot Choc Anon (choke-a-nun is the Thai pronunciation) which has been in the ground for 4 years from a 7 gallon pot. It looks to have been grown from seed (poly embryonic.)

Here are my observations.

It dropped it's first and very weak spring fruit set, but set about 20 fruit that fall and brought most to maturity. This spring it set about 50 fruit and matured about 30. This fall it set about 40 fruit and kept 25. The latest crop is now beginning to mature.

It definitely produces two crops in central Florida. It's not a prolific producer, but it's still young.

The tree continues to enlarge the fall fruit even when the day/night temps are in the 65/45 range.

It does not bloom flush all at once, but instead will produce 5 or 6 spikes on one branch, then a week later do the same on another, then another and another over the period of about a month. This makes for a month or more of picking tree ripened fruit.

It's difficult to get this variety to flush new growth which limits it's production. After picking this summer's fruit I immediately fertilized heavily to promote a growth, but I got just one full flush before it was back to flowering. In the spring, once the fruit is fully set, I get another full flush. So with just 2 flushes per year it's not the fastest grower.

I pick the fruit when it is nearly all yellow (otherwise the critters take it) and set it on the counter until the skin starts to wrinkle. The ripe fruit is super sweet, without fiber, but not fantastically flavorful. Underripe fruit has hints of turpentine and lacks sweetness. Some fruit have slight jelly seed, others do not. Fruit weight is around 12 ounces.

Finally, it's moderately susceptible to anthracnose in my moist Florida environment. I spray copper at the first sign of flowering and continue until all the fruit has set.

This post was edited by Seoj on Fri, Dec 26, 14 at 9:36

    Bookmark   December 25, 2014 at 10:29PM
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myamberdog

Seoj - sounds like you got a good thing going there. Out here in the desert of California I often get only a single growth flush on my Keitt trees since they can hold fruit really late, so 2 sounds pretty good to me....

And speaking of this Chocanon - mine flowers in late summer-to-fall and has set a couple fruit this winter (frist time) so it really seems to be at odds with the rest of the mango varieties when it comes to fruiting. I take that as a positive and will graft more varieties onto that tree to see if they will inherit this offseason flowering/fruiting schedule or just follow their own spring flowering one....

MD

    Bookmark   December 27, 2014 at 11:24AM
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greenman62

so, if i plant a ataulfo seed,
and i only get 1 shoot
would this be a good chance of having fruit that would taste OK ?
(i had like 5 seeds that did this)
- now have several small ataulfo seedlings

it would be nice to plant them in the yard.

    Bookmark   December 27, 2014 at 1:58PM
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myamberdog

Greenman - I believe Ataulfo's are polyembryonic so your seedling should mimic the parent mango it came from and should taste ok.....

MADDY

    Bookmark   December 27, 2014 at 4:15PM
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Seoj

Greenman62 - you might find this study interesting...

Here is a link that might be useful: Identification of zygotic and nucellar seedlings in polyembryonic mango cultivars

    Bookmark   January 3, 2015 at 12:57AM
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greenman62

thanks Maddy, i was hoping.

Seoj
in the over 1/2 dozen ive grown from seed
i have only seen 1 sprout on each.
i guess its possible they were still poly, but the others just failed to sprout ?
I had assumed they were Ataulfo, but i guess they were just as easily Manila ?

I am no scientist, but are # 1 and #3
at odds with each other ?

Does this mean my seedlings are probably genetically similar, or not ?
(%14 doesnt sound like great odds to me?)
or....
does this mean they are probably genetically similar, BUT, will only produce multiple embyo's %14 of the time ?

--------------------
1. Mango cultivars Manila and Ataulfo show polyembryony in more than 80% of their seeds, and the possibility of obtaining nucellar plants from them is high.

3. 'Manila' (44.4%) and 'Ataulfo' (14.3%) seeds had two to three genetically similar, zygotic embryos

    Bookmark   January 3, 2015 at 12:10PM
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Seoj

A quick update on our Choc Anon tree. It's flowering again. There are five or six large bloom spikes on one branch and two younger bloom spikes on another part of the tree. It's the same pattern. I expect it will continue for a month or more. There are still 30 partially and nearly mature mangos on the tree!

It is a bit early to be blooming in Central Florida, but this winter we had a prolonged cool period in December and now we're back to the low 80's. My Mangos and Lychees have come out of dormancy. Even a Nam Doc Mai seedling is flushing! This is a bit worrisome as we can get overnight freezes through February.

    Bookmark   January 3, 2015 at 2:17PM
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Seoj

Hi Greenman

I'm a retired IT guy that's found yet another hobby. Not a scientist, but I enjoy science. I agree that this paper is a tough read.

The abstract states that 95% of the 100 Ataulfo seeds were polyembryonic with an average of 3.2 embryos per seed. The probability of six seeds all producing just one embryo is: .05 x .05 x .05 x .05 x .05 x .05 = .000000015625 (1.5 in 100,000,000 which is lottery odds.) Seemingly in contradiction to the abstract, the conclusions states 'more than' 80% of 'their seeds' were poly. In this case I think 'their seeds' refers to the 20 seeds they tested which included the three mono-embryonic Manila.

Are conclusions 1 and 3 contradictory? I think not. Statement 1 tells us more than 80% seeds had more than one embryo but nothing about how many or what type (see the table). Statement 3 tells us that in 14.3% of the seeds there was more than one zygotic (sexual) embryo and that the zygotic embryos were genetically similar within the same seed.

Are your seedlings genetically similar? The evidence suggest you've mis-identified your variety and the seedlings are mono-embryonic, zygotic, all different, and not true to the parent.

Just for fun this summer we grew a Nam Doc Mai seed which produced 2 embryos. One small and weak, the other large and vigorous. Both survived and the vigorous one just produced a full flush. There is a noticeable difference in the leaf color, leaf arrangement and veining between the two plants.

Do you notice any differences in your seedlings?

    Bookmark   January 3, 2015 at 4:25PM
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