volunteer seedlings

janice__indiana5(Z5 Indiana)May 12, 2014

I have many, many volunteer seedlings where I grew sun sugar, or sun golds last year. Will these be true to the mother plant, or should I just turn them over?

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labradors_gw

No, they are hybrids and the volunteer seedlings will not come true to the parents. However, if you have some space, you could always move a few plants and see what you get - probably red cherry tomatoes.

Last year I bought a Sungold plant from a market gardener which had red fruit. I am guessing that she saved the seeds..... Sigh! It was really annoying because I was keen to try them.

This year, I bought my seeds to ensure that I got a true Sungold plant.

Linda

    Bookmark   May 12, 2014 at 12:34PM
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janice__indiana5(Z5 Indiana)

Sorry, I should have googled first! Guess I might as well till them in. Darn!

    Bookmark   May 12, 2014 at 12:36PM
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labradors_gw

Janice,

It was a good question!

Some of the so-called hybrids really are not. I used to buy Sweet Million or Sweet One Hundred, and I always had volunteers, some of which I thinned out and allowed to grow. I always got edible cherry tomatoes from my volunteers and never thought much about them being hybrids.

Lately, I have read that some people think these varieties will come true anyway!!!!

Linda

    Bookmark   May 12, 2014 at 1:21PM
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digdirt2(6b-7a No.Cent. AR HZ8 Sun-35)

Lately, I have read that some people think these varieties will come true anyway!!!!

Then I fear they are misled. Sure they may produce red cherry tomatoes but that's all and it sure doesn't mean they have stabilized. The cluster sizes, the fruit flavor, the brix rating, the disease resistance, and even the plant size can differ greatly.

Linda - A hybrid is still a hybrid and seeds or volunteers from a hybrid will still be a hybrid. In other words it may look similar but that doesn't mean it is the same variety and shouldn't be labeled as such.

Dave

    Bookmark   May 12, 2014 at 1:47PM
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seysonn(8a WA/HZ 1)

It is like a Russina roulette. Meaning there s probability factor. Seeds taken from an F1 has a chance to be like F1. But it might be a small probability. This is governed by the old law of heredity. It is true both in animals and plants kingdom People have reported positive outcomes. CASE IN POINT: Kumato. I have plated one from store bought. I will find out in couple of months.

To OP: I will keep one (instead of composting all) and see what will happen. Just an experiment with little cost.
I personally doubt that ALL hybrids are F1. They could be F2, F3. Who knows ! The seed companies wont tell you !!!
As the number after "F" gets higher, the chances of stabilization would increase.

    Bookmark   May 12, 2014 at 8:09PM
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labradors_gw

Some varieties that are touted to be hybrids are really open pollinated!

Linda

    Bookmark   May 12, 2014 at 10:11PM
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digdirt2(6b-7a No.Cent. AR HZ8 Sun-35)

Some varieties that are touted to be hybrids are really open pollinated!

Touted by whom? Could you give a couple of examples of what you mean for clarity please? Perhaps it is just semantics as the terms mean different things to different people.

There are some hybrids that have been stabilized over several generations and will breed true from saved seeds but they are just that, a stabilized hybrid and recognized as such.

I personally doubt that ALL hybrids are F1. They could be F2, F3. Who knows ! The seed companies wont tell you !!!

Yes there are F2 and F3's available for some varieties but they are labeled as such, not as F1's, by any reputable seed company. And yes, they will provide the information when asked. Been there, done that.

Are there some fly-by-night seed companies out there? Of course just as in any other profession. It is the buyer's responsibility to either be informed or unconcerned. Sadly most consumers are unconcerned.

But some sort of giant conspiracy among the corporate offices to mislead the average customer into buying a pig in a poke? Easy to toss out such accusations but where's the proof?.

Dave

    Bookmark   May 12, 2014 at 11:09PM
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seysonn(8a WA/HZ 1)

Yes there are F2 and F3's available for some varieties but they are labeled as such, not as F1's, by any reputable seed company. And yes, they will provide the information when asked. Been there, done that.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
There is no proof either way about what a given labeled "hybrid" seed/plant is.

Who is going to waste his/her time to ask about seeds from the seller ? Maybe one in thousand ? maybe less ? All you can readily get is that they say "Hybrid". VERY RARELY you see plants marked with "F-" suffix after the name and "hybrid".
And there is no need for conspiracy either. When they mark seeds or a plant as "Hybrid" they know that they are legally off the hook. (sure it originated as hybrid !) And those companies know the public/consumer psychology very well. Once a seed/plant is labeled "Hybrid" great majority would not even think about saving seeds from it.

The other thing is the STATISTICAL PROBABLITY. Even though that might be small. So I suggested the OP just keep one as a test specimen. I am growing KUMATO. It has been reported that it produced true fruits.

    Bookmark   May 13, 2014 at 3:47AM
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labradors_gw

Dave,

I wasn't talking about varieties that have been de-hybridized, although that happens and, as you say, we can never be sure that something isn't missing - like disease tolerance for example.

There's Santa, which is claimed to come true from saved seed about 98% of the time.

Kumato is another which, if you read the write up, is said to be either sterile or seedless. Neither of these claims are true, and the seeds come true. Of course there are better varieties out there, but still.

There is also that seed seller who is reputed to change the names of varieties, coming up with their own name. I'm guessing that they would say they are hybrids to keep people coming back to them for more.

Linda

    Bookmark   May 13, 2014 at 8:50AM
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carolyn137(z4/5 NY)

Below I've linked to Carol Deppe's excellent book , the link from the 2nd edition published in 2000, the first edition somewhat before that, I have both editions, and she was the first to raise the issue of some varieties being sold as F1's that were really OP.

So it was maybe 20 years ago with the first edition that she raised that issue. And also referrred to Alan Kapuler at the then Peace Seeds who had experienced some of the same.

But that was then,this is now. And the situation has changed IMO.

Dave referred to those who dehybridize F1's to stable OP's , or at least try to, and I know only one person who has a seed site who actually sells some of those OP versions, that she did herself, and yes, some from others. Without checking I'm pretty sure it's said they are OP's and from feedback I also know that not all are fully stable as sold as OP's.

Regulations in the seed industry have become more strict and I don't know of one major seed company that sells F1's as Op's. Yes, it used to happen, no doubt about it.

Reimer's Seeds was selling Big Zac F1 as an OP, that I remember very well.

I dehybridized Ramapo F1 when it was thought to be no longer available and distributed seeds for my OP version, as OP's.

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/wiki/Ramapo#tab=General_Info

It was pretty darn stable at the F3, and as this history above says, I sent F3 seeds to Ed Ryan and I did so b'c he was originally a Market Gardener in NJ and had grown the original F1. Actually I was sent seeds for the F1 from Rutgers to use as a comparison when making my selections. And Ed said he could find no difference at all between my Op version and the F1. Ramapo F1, now available again from Rutgers, has just two parents so was not that difficult to dehybridize.

Then there's Santa Sweets, the original grape tomato first offered by Andrew Chu in FL, his seeds from the Known-You seed company in Taiwan, and sold as an F1, which it really was.

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/wiki/Santa_Sweets

But as you read the link above, you'll see the history of the OP version and it was Andrew himself who told me that 99% of saved seeds come true, as Tania has also noted, and so I spread that information around. Andrew told me that the offtype is round, not grape shaped, and has a BriX content ( soluble sugars) lower that the grape shape.

There are folks who are now at the F9 and it's been very stable.

All to say that I do not think that any reputable seed companies, I said reputable, arenow selling OP's instead of the original F1's. for a particular variety.

Carolyn, who notes that her attempts to dehybridize Big Boy F1 to try and get out the one parent, Teddy Jones, an heirloom variety from the midwest, didn't get very far very fast, despite the advice of Dr. Oved Shifriss, who bred Big Boy F1. ( smile)

Here is a link that might be useful: F1's as OP's

    Bookmark   May 13, 2014 at 9:23AM
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woodyswife(z5 OH)

We've let the volunteers grow in the past but often ended up with more problems with blight. Not saying that was the whole problem but rotation may have also been our problem.

    Bookmark   May 15, 2014 at 7:16AM
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