Is this safe to put deer droppings in worm bin inHow does lyme its raw state? hunters eat deer so is it safe to assume that lyme is not in feces? I have no idea.
Myself I would have no issue with deer droppings. I am not a scientist but I can say this. I shy away from ANY type of manure that comes from horses or cattle due to the fact of the vaccinations and hormones that livestock receive today.
I'm pretty sure zero scientific studies have been even contemplated to figure out if deer infected with lyme disease pass lyme disease on in their droppings and if after vermicomposting the disease if it was even there in the first place is now gone and the resulting vermicompost is lyme disease free.
If it helps the topic of vermicomposting and lyme disease is now forever stuck on google because google is stuck on us.
There really are so few people vermicomposting and of that tiny bit so few people vermicomposting deer droppings and of them so few people vermicomposting deer droppings where the deer have lyme disease as to make the topic very rare indeed.
But of value.
Besides Lyme, deer in the US also carry a nematode that, in its second stage, can infect snails. If ungulates (moose, sheep, goats, alpacas, etc) ingest these infected snails while browsing, they can get a "brain worm" which causes neurological problems. It also lays many eggs which eventually are excreted. This information is not widely known outside the community of higher level agricultural veterinarians.
Supposedly humans cannot be infected by these nematodes, but it is possible that some dermatological problems that the medical community is so far passing off as a "psychological problem" are actually due to a filiarial form of these or other nematodes.
There are all kinds of nematodes in the environment, and many of them are relatively harmless, but some of them are extremely difficult to kill--especially those ones able to survive the digestive process.
Your state's agricultural extension service may be able to provide further input.
I would not bring deer droppings into my home, and I would definitely not incorporate them into anything I was going to place on a vegetable crop. Although humans are not supposed to be vulnerable to this parasite, you do not want to be the first to prove the medical community wrong.
Anyone raising llamas, alpacas, sheep, goats, etc also need to be aware of this parasite and protect these animals from exposure to forage infected with deer droppings, especially in the areas where the vector snails exist. Additionally, their fur should be subjected to sub-freezing temperatures for a significant period of time to eliminate any possible parasites.
Here is a link that might be useful: Wikipedia Article
eibren Thank you for your detailed informative post. Your information seems valid.
Were you alluding to morgellons?
Thank you for posting.
Yes, although that is grouped in with several different problems, imo. I couldn't remember the term when I was posting.
I don't know it for a certainty, but am suspicious.
I hear what you're saying about deer droppings infecting snails etc. Fortunately I don't see many snails maybe a couple tiny ones now and then. What I don't understand is why deer droppings should be of any concern especially after running thru worm bin or hot composting outside. If all these health hazards exist with droppings then why woldn't they also exist in the deer meat? I haven't heard of any bans on eating venison. Am I looking at this wrong?
I am NOT a scientist (Paul, help!) but would not hesitate to use deer dropping in a worm-bin. If I needed worm food, I would put on my tin-foil hat and use it.
How long would it take to collect a shovel full?
I have 2 quart yogurt cups full. Took me an hour to collect them that's why I hate to waste them. Couldn,t let the grandkids fall in it anyways.
Collecting deer poo in yogurt containers, brain worms, Morgellans. You people are weird. I like you.
I once took a parasitology class. Made me want to zip myself into a sleeping bag and never venture out of it. I HONESTLY discourage anyone that is even the least bit prone to "suggestion" from taking a parasitology class. Your life will never be the same, and not in a 'good' way.
Second, I am no parasitologist. What I don't know about the subject fills volumes. I try to be cautious, but at the same time not live in a world filled with fear. In today's world of constant bombardment of 'gloom and doom', that's no mean feat.
Those disclaimers said:
I wouldn't personally be TOO worried about transfer of Lyme disease through the worms, THEN into the ground, THEN into the plant I was growing, THEN into me. Of course, there is NO assurance that every single molecule (including parasites and pathogens) in a pile of deer poop is going to go through a worm's gut in a worm bin. So the first step above could be bypassed I suppose.
With regard to "brain worms": A parasite of a particular organ is usually only found in that organ, not in other organs or flesh. So there is no reason to believe that a brain worm could be "caught" by eating the flesh of an animal infected with the parasite. While I have seen brain worms in "deer" (moose, caribou, and whitetails), and it is thoroughly disgusting, it has not prevented me from eating the flesh of those animals because I know that a person can't get a brain worm from eating the flesh of a brain worm-infected animal. HOWEVER...
I would advise to take the following comment by eibren to heart:
"Although humans are not supposed to be vulnerable to this parasite, you do not want to be the first to prove the medical community wrong."
The medical community is "proved wrong" almost on a daily basis. Most of the time the proof is followed by "Oops! Wow! THAT's interesting!"
I posted elsewhere in this forum (fourth post http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/verm/msg0320110524575.html?7) about using moose dropping in my worm bin. Now you've got me "thinking" about my parasitology class again! :(
There is one more "solution" I'll mention because it certainly made an impression on me: Some vermiculturists/vermicomposters are using pressure cookers to cook dog poop before putting it in their worm bins. While I find the idea almost nauseating, I can say with certainty, that there is NO "bug" going to survive being pressure cooked at 15 PSI for 20 minutes. And while I doubt "you" have enough money to get me to pressure cook dog poop, it wouldn't take much to get me to pressure cook moose (or other deer) poop. HOWEVER, I'd REALLY have to WANT to use it.
Sorry I couldn't provide more "scientific" info, but this is an area in which I am very ignorant.
I think prions can survive pressure cooker. They can also survive however they clean dental and surgical tools. I try not to think about it too much.
This part? "However, prions, such as those associated with Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease, may not be destroyed by autoclaving at the typical 134 ÃÂ°C for three minutes or 121 ÃÂ°C for 15 minutes." I think pskvorc was giving the link I neglected to include.
Paul, be sure and label and date your jars of moose marbles. That makes it easier to rotate the stock.
"rotate my stock", aye!
On a more serious note, it's pretty much a seasonal thing. They move off to summer quarters in high ground. I get the piles left after the snow leaves and the grass hasn't started growing yet.
As I suppose most of you know, moose are "deer", and as such are ruminants. Ruminants need to keep their gut flora and fauna fed in order to keep it 'cooking'. By late December, there really isn't much with any nutritional value left within reach (about 8') for most moose. At that point they are just eating "twigs" that keep the bugs in their guts alive, but those twigs provide ALMOST no nutrition to the moose. They are truly living off their fat and muscle for the last four months of winter.
Here's the point: Winter poop is significantly different than summer poop. Winter poop crumbles in your hand if pinched between thumb and forefinger, and the 'crumbles' look a GREAT deal like what comes out of the bottom of my table saw. A picture is worth a 1000 words, so I'll take some pictures and post them here.
I have no idea what nutritive value winter moose poop might have for worms, but I'm not adverse to 'throwing some in' and seeing what happens. It is difficult to imagine that it would be harmful to Eisenia fetida.
I don't think anybody would disagree that the doo doo would bother the worms. It's what goes in the garden or mixing up the worm bin and getting remains on your hands.
In the case of deer droppings lyme disease. The more I think about it the less concerned I become. Hunters are pulling the guts out of their catch every day with no trouble. You might think I'm crazy but I might just drill couple small holes in container and throw it microwave. As a matter of fact everything that goes to worm bin gets microwaved first except for rabbit droppings.
While I agree that microwaving is an effective method of killing "things", I do not believe it is fully effective unless the "things" are stirred a couple of times, then reradiated, to redistribute the matter being heated. While a microwave is certainly not as effective as a pressure cooker (autoclave), it takes MUCH less time and effort.
No poop in my household microwave regardless of how "benign" (like ruminant poop) it might be. Microwaves are pretty cheap these days, and used ones are almost given away. Not a bad idea for a fly and other "undesirable" killer. Three day's in the freezer, or a 'minute' in the microwave. Hmmm...
Still, no carnivore poop in my worm bins or "cooking" ANYWHERE in my house! If I want to compost carnivore poop - which I happen to think is a GREAT idea - it gets its own separate system that would, without question, be WELL outside my house!
I keep my bins in the basement.I would get a couple flyers migrating from bins into warm living area upstairs. Finally I got infested with a moth like insect in my bedroom no less. My bedroom carpet was infested and occasionally would see them flying. Luckily I found some roach traps that worked but it took 2 or 3 months to clean them out. They showed up again the following spring but the queen must have finally died. Anyway that is when I started microwaving all food going into worm bin. Nothing that flies in the air since comes out of bins. Freezer never put a stop to the fliers.
I guess I will put deer droppings in my outdoor compost pile. I put rabbit poo dirctly in bins.
When I wrote:
"While I agree that microwaving is an effective method of killing "things", I do not believe it is fully effective unless the "things" are stirred a couple of times, then reradiated, to redistribute the matter being heated."
I was thinking in terms of pathogens, bacteria, and other microscopic 'nasties'. Sounds like microwaving is an excellent technique for "macro-fauna".
Here are the promised pictures of moose droppings. These are from a calf.
It's difficult to call it anything more than 'sawdust'.
So this evening, I recruited my fishing buddy and we spent half an hour or so wandering my yard looking for, and picking up, piles of moose 'marbles'. I filled a 3-gal bucket to over-flowing. It always surprises me how totally odor-free moose and caribou feces is. (Not so much when you take it out of the inside of them, though.)
I'll macerate it and add, per mendopete's suggestion, about a handful into one corner of my bin and see what 'salutes'.
"You" will be the second to know...
The above post was made at 8:11 PM, April FOURteen, local, not 11 minutes after midnight April 15, as the header states, which is EDT I assume. The only reason I mention that is that my following comments would appear incongruous if one looks at the GardenWeb header.
Tuesday morning - the 15th. I added about a cup of crushed up moose marbles to my bin. Instead of putting them in a corner as mendopete suggested, I plopped them right in the middle of the bin, on top, with no covering. Much like a pile of horse manure. I spritzed them with water to get some "juices" to run down into the lower layers hoping that might more quickly lure the worms to the pile. This morning, I checked the bin.
I have taken to heart all the admonitions to avoid disturbing a bin. Since I have a truly paltry number of worms, I don't want to inhibit their activities any more than necessary to facilitate my education. Therefore, 'you' will appreciate that there aren't any pictures at this time. The 'pile' was 'full' of worms. At least as far as I could see without disturbing them. I don't know if 'every' worm in the bin was in the pile, but clearly many were/are.
Today, I am ordering "1000" worms "off the internet". I can't imagine that I will have any greater disappointment in the "product" than I have with what I got when I got them "locally". If what I get is satisfactory or better, I will order at least another 1000 and maybe two. The "season" is VERY short up here.
I am encouraged by this. I am beginning to figure out a modus operandi that scratches my worm-rearing itch.
I'll get some pictures of the "pile" the next time I open the bin.
Great news Paul. Those worms were looking for something stable, full of microbes and worm-ready. Your moose marbles were it, and should probably be considered both bedding and food like aged horse manure. Brown gold. Amazing they moved in so fast!
You have a good fishing buddy. You will owe him big-time if he helps fill a few 5 gallon buckets with marbles.
Not to disparage my fishing buddy, but it's more like babysitting than "recruiting". I've never met as big a "fishin' fool" as Jim. 'Bout this time of year he is either over at my house or on the phone trying to talk me into "checking" the ice. We've been out three times this week. That may not seem like much, but there are still trucks DRIVING ON THE LAKES!
I do 'owe' him for helping with the marble-gathering, but not as much as it might appear.
I have to take back all those bad things I said about my fishing buddy. (That's a joke.)
He just called and told me he had a 5-gallon bucket full of moose marbles he had collected from HIS yard! I think he may be 'hooked'. ;)