New York Knows Best

demifloyd(8)September 14, 2012

The government says that it is acceptable to kill this:

But, the government says that it is unacceptable to sell this and you will be in violation of regulations and fined if you do--because they're looking out for the health of individuals.

*

That's sort of mind blowing when you think about it.

I'll have to think about that some more.

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tobr24u(z6 RI)

You are right, this blows the mind, and I am not sure that I can reset the fuse...

    Bookmark   September 14, 2012 at 4:33AM
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jerzeegirl(9)

I fail to see the connection - why are you comparing abortion to a NYC law about a specific sized soft drink?

    Bookmark   September 14, 2012 at 7:12AM
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esh_ga

Perhaps we should show a picture of a river, polluted by industrial waste and now devoid of supporting life. Government said that was legal too - gave job creating businesses the right to dump their waste into our natural resources and kill God's own creatures.

    Bookmark   September 14, 2012 at 7:48AM
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Roughseas

apples & felt hats.

t

    Bookmark   September 14, 2012 at 8:58AM
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marquest(z5 PA)

Incredible to try to compare abortion to a drink. Pro-lifer could give a flying rats butt about a fetus. Health Care, Food stamps, the two major support systems needed is the least of what I hear coming from you Demi to support that fetus so try another comparison.

    Bookmark   September 14, 2012 at 9:03AM
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kwoods(Cold z7 Long Is)

Suggestion, choose not to live in NY.
That's what many people do... I think the majority.
Since you have already made that choice, what's the problem?

    Bookmark   September 14, 2012 at 9:14AM
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labrea_gw

It's alright at 5 years old it will just be another irresponsible burden looking to raise the burden of tax anorexics.

    Bookmark   September 14, 2012 at 10:17AM
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david52 Zone 6

From the Queen of parroting the FOX Daily False Equivalencies. (You know, Obama's school application = Romney's tax returns.

Speaking of which, I thought this was pretty funny - when vetting for VP, Romney insisted on 10 years of Ryans' tax returns.

Here is a link that might be useful: link

    Bookmark   September 14, 2012 at 10:34AM
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jodik_gw

"We do not discuss the VP selection process..."

Say, what?! We, the people, whom our representatives work for, are not entitled to know how the selection process works, and we're not allowed to ask for transparency from those representatives? Excuse me?

That's hilarious, David... except it's par for the pitiful course. But then, what's good for the goose is never good for the gander, it seems. Very typical.

In fact, the entire thread premise is very par for the course, in my opinion...

    Bookmark   September 14, 2012 at 10:44AM
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littleonefb(zone 5, MA)

Speaking of which, I thought this was pretty funny - when vetting for VP, Romney insisted on 10 years of Ryans' tax returns.

Ah, but Ryan isn't Romney. Romney makes up the rules for himself as he goes along, and everyone else has to follow them.

Romney rule #1.

I only show the public, the world 2 years worth of tax returns.

Romney rule #2.

Want to be considered for second banana, give me 10 years returns to look at, or you are out of the running.

How interesting 2 years for the public to elect you, but 10 years from someone else to satisfy you.

And this is what people say is better than what we already have?

    Bookmark   September 14, 2012 at 10:45AM
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esh_ga

    Bookmark   September 14, 2012 at 10:47AM
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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

i see that NYC is still among the favorite targets of the right.

They should just avoid the place! NYers will be happy too.

    Bookmark   September 14, 2012 at 10:48AM
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demifloyd(8)

Oh my, the vitriol and sarcasm are already out.

I just find it strange that one is perfectly acceptable--killing a baby at 6 months gestation, yet selling a 20 ounce soft drink is a bad thing to the point that it is outlawed.

If any of you paid attention, you would know that I support abortion rights--to 12 weeks. I still think it is morally wrong but I think that right is a woman's choice, at least to that point. Afterwards, perhaps, in certain conditions--I've noted that that area is something I will never feel comfortable about one way or the other.

My post was only pointing out the disparity in government looking out for people.

THAT is the hot topic, not the actual examples.

Of course someone unable and or unwilling to put their vitriol and prejudices aside would not be able to comprehend that. Those that display a knee jerk reaction would of course make comments about comparing apples to oranges or hats or whatever and make smarmy comments about not living in New York.

This was a different observation and hopefully, deeper conversation.

However, to that end, I made the unfortunate mistake of fishing in a shallow pool.

    Bookmark   September 14, 2012 at 10:55AM
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esh_ga

Oh I thought the topic was about what the government considers acceptable. Like allowing companies to pollute planet Earth in the name of profits.

I made the unfortunate mistake of fishing in a shallow pool.

Ha! You've been waiting for some time to use that little snark, haven't you? ;)

    Bookmark   September 14, 2012 at 10:59AM
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labrea_gw

The Board of health also made new requirements asking for signed consent form parent's before
"Metzitzah b'peh" is the practice of sucking the blood from a just snipped foreskin in traditional Jewish circumcisions. Most modern mohels use a sterile pipette to do so, but some Orthodox parents insist on the ancient tradition. The Board voted in favor of a mandatory written consent form being given to parents before a mohel performs direct oral suction of the infant's penis. Members acknowledged the delicateness of the "difficult legal situation" despite there being a "very clear public necessity" to do something, they stressed the importance of respecting religious beliefs."

Here is a link that might be useful: Bris Milah & zovirax

    Bookmark   September 14, 2012 at 11:03AM
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demifloyd(8)

Ha! You've been waiting for some time to use that little snark, haven't you? ;)

*

Oh Esh, no you give yourself and everyone here way too much credit to even consider that I even think about what is posted here once I sign off and leave the computer desk.

It just came to me when I was ending that post.

    Bookmark   September 14, 2012 at 11:06AM
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littleonefb(zone 5, MA)

My post was only pointing out the disparity in government looking out for people.

No, your post only showed that it's fine to have more government involved in the lives of the people of this country when it suits the purpose of the GOP, otherwise it is not fine.

IE.

Women's rights OK to have government control that

Equal rights, OK for government to control that

Women's rights to control what is and isn't done to their body, OK for government to control that.

Equal rights of all kinds, including same sex marriage, OK for government to control that.

Not allowing certain size sodas to be sold, not OK for government to control that.

this was a different observation and hopefully, deeper conversation.
However, to that end, I made the unfortunate mistake of fishing in a shallow pool.

No you chose to set up a thread with your OP that you already knew would get the responses that it did.
You had no desire for any kind of conversation, let alone a "deeper" one.
You got exactly what you wanted.

    Bookmark   September 14, 2012 at 11:08AM
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demifloyd(8)

NO, I didn't get what I wanted.

In truth, I got the opposite of what I hoped for.

My bad for expecting better of you all.

    Bookmark   September 14, 2012 at 11:25AM
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adoptedbyhounds

"However, to that end, I made the unfortunate mistake of fishing in a shallow pool."

That was funny! :)

    Bookmark   September 14, 2012 at 11:46AM
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jerzeegirl(9)

I made the unfortunate mistake of fishing in a shallow pool.

Did you forget? You're in the pool too. You are judged by the company you keep.

That was funny! :)

But you had no comment to make on the OP.

    Bookmark   September 14, 2012 at 11:53AM
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Circus Peanut

Oh yes, far better to force a woman to carry a dead fetus many more months to a tragic stillborn birth, being that fetal death is one of the few cases in which an abortion after 12 weeks is legal. Even in *gasp* the Gomorrah of NY.

Why do you hate women so much, Demi? Or urban New York? I can never quite tell which disgusts you more.

    Bookmark   September 14, 2012 at 12:02PM
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jodik_gw

This is why I normally avoid the threads that resemble speed bumps at the outset... but sometimes, I just can't help but look to see what others are going to say... like Jerzee, who continues to keep me chuckling or thinking, with her spot on observations! :-)

    Bookmark   September 14, 2012 at 12:11PM
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patriciae_gw(07)

I found the use of the word 'fishing' to be instructive.

    Bookmark   September 14, 2012 at 1:25PM
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labrea_gw

Old fly hook baiters need not ever worry about shallow pools, commodes or any other natural or unatural puddles as long as they still know how to bait a poster!

    Bookmark   September 14, 2012 at 1:41PM
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demifloyd(8)

Posted by circuspeanut 5 (My Page) on
Fri, Sep 14, 12 at 12:02

Oh yes, far better to force a woman to carry a dead fetus many more months to a tragic stillborn birth, being that fetal death is one of the few cases in which an abortion after 12 weeks is legal. Even in *gasp* the Gomorrah of NY.

Why do you hate women so much, Demi? Or urban New York? I can never quite tell which disgusts you more.

*

See? This is a perfect example of engaging assumptions and emotions before engaging a brain.

I juxtaposed the two because of the contrasts and the irony, and hopefully a discussion about how much, or how little, and under what circumstances the government should be involved in certain decisions of our lives.

Certain posters jumped to wrong conclusions about what I believe and made assumptions, which only made them look petty and looking for a fight.

Even more stupid is the taunting question worded with the assumption that I hate women and New York City.

Get this Circuspeanut, don't dare try to pull me to your level--I posted yesterday I don't hate anyone and don't use the word that you so freely use and wrongly attribute to me.

In fact, I have so many women friends that I love I can't keep up with all of them, and New York City is an absolutely top spot to visit. In fact, I plan another visit next year.

So, see what a fool you made of yourself by wrongfully accusing me of these things?

I'm going to dinner, I won't kill a human fetus with a face this evening, and I won't be drinking a 20 ounce drink.

Those of you in New York, however, can do one of those.

Long live personal freedom, except for drinking large sodas, eh?

    Bookmark   September 14, 2012 at 5:30PM
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jerzeegirl(9)

What does a soda drinker do if they crave a 17 13/16 oz soda or a 13 3/4 ounce soda. You can't get those either. I suppose if you really have the urge to imbibe 20 oz, you can buy two 10 oz cups, right? I don't know why you are so lathered about this, demi.

    Bookmark   September 14, 2012 at 6:01PM
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littleonefb(zone 5, MA)

Long live personal freedom, except for drinking large sodas, eh?

Interesting words you chose you use.

The personal freedom, by way of the GOP and that is the party that you support, Demi, well they don't believe in "personal freedom" for women. They believe in government control of women, government intervention in women's rights. The need to "protect women from themselves because they are not capable of protecting themselves".
They believe in government control in civil rights, equal rights too. You know government in the bedroom, in the marriage bed, dictating what is and isn't considered a marriage, whether same sex marriage is legal or not, equal rights for gays.

But, oops, no government interference in what size drinks can be purchased by residents of a particular state.

Personal freedom? Sorry, Demi, but the GOP, the party you support, the candidate you believe is the best candidate to win the election, well he and that party believe in "personal freedom" as they define it and it is not much of personal freedom, certainly not what you are implying as personal freedom in your post.

Such strange words you used.

    Bookmark   September 14, 2012 at 6:07PM
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epiphyticlvr

I'm going to dinner, I won't kill a human fetus with a face this evening, and I won't be drinking a 20 ounce drink.

Those of you in New York, however, can do one of those.

What a vile post and probably one of the lowest I have ever read on HT.

    Bookmark   September 14, 2012 at 8:39PM
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labrea_gw

hey Demi what magic happens between 3 weeks & 24 weeks you have an arbitrary number somewhere If I remember correctly ?

    Bookmark   September 14, 2012 at 9:48PM
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jodik_gw

How do fetuses and 20 oz. sodas connect together, you might ask? I want to know, myself. So, let's see if I got this...

Oh my, it's so simple... it's about personal freedom, don't you know. I am apparently not capable enough to manage my own uterus, but by golly, I should surely be capable enough to drink as many gallons of soda as I can possibly consume! And that, folks, is personal freedom.

Okay... and now that I've got that straight, I think I'll go to dinner and have a 20 oz. glass of fetuses... wait, I mean soda! What was I thinking? I can't handle my own uterus. A bunch of Republican men said I can't.

    Bookmark   September 14, 2012 at 10:17PM
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greatgollymolly

Does anyone here really think this ban on a large soda is going to slim down the fat people of N.Y.? Come on now this is the most ridiculous, useless piece of legislature. Even democrates are saying it. Like my local disc jockey said today, why stop there, take away the cupcakes too. LOL

epi, LOL you sure have a lot of drama with you. If that is the lowest post you've ever read on HT's than you are obviously picking and choosing which ones you read.

Bill O'Reilly made a very profound statement the other night, he said "The government wants to control you from the crib to the grave, but the hard part with them is getting to the crib."

    Bookmark   September 14, 2012 at 10:24PM
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littleonefb(zone 5, MA)

Bill O'Reilly made a very profound statement the other night, he said "The government wants to control you from the crib to the grave, but the hard part with them is getting to the crib."

You call this a profound statement? It isn't even "profound" from Bill O'Reilly. But then again the only knowledge of I have of what he says is from either the news or a post here on HT.

I wouldn't waste my time to listen to that hot air idiot.

    Bookmark   September 14, 2012 at 10:27PM
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epiphyticlvr

epi, LOL you sure have a lot of drama with you. If that is the lowest post you've ever read on HT's than you are obviously picking and choosing which ones you read.

Sorry GGM, you don't get to decide for me what I find abhorrent. Just so there isn't any confusion, that is a fact, not an opinion.

    Bookmark   September 14, 2012 at 10:57PM
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greatgollymolly

I was going to say it was a funny statement, but the FACT is it's a true statement.

FYI, that hot air idiot has the number one news program for many years now and has many #1 best selling books. That hot air idiot makes and donates millions of dollars to charity too.

Once again, calling names and showing ones fear of the truth. I watch other news channels and don't come here and call those people names, yet I see a lot of FOX bashing and if you don't watch how can you form that negative opinion?

    Bookmark   September 14, 2012 at 11:05PM
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labrea_gw

Bill O'Reilly's an idiot as are most of his viewers! He does setups not news!
Feeds his flock what they love to hear & they snap it up!
That steak post reminded me of one of Dans he's only a few miles from you you like figs?

Here is a link that might be useful: Outfoxed

    Bookmark   September 14, 2012 at 11:54PM
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jodik_gw

Facts and opinions are swapping places again, I see... well, 'tis that season... election season, that is.

    Bookmark   September 15, 2012 at 12:06AM
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greatgollymolly

So you just called me an idiot like Bill O'Reilly?? Thank you very much. I tell you the entertainment factor here is better than comedy cenral. LOL

    Bookmark   September 15, 2012 at 12:19AM
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lily316(z5PA)

The great philosopher Bill OReilly. What an ass. I caught him again at the gym tonight. Fox does not give news...only their interpretation of it, and always throw in Romney's comments on whatever. He's a blustering idiot. Yes, you Repubs love the little zygotes and fetuses, it's just when there is a real live baby that might suck taxpayer money away from you when it has a life threatening illness and doesn't have health insurance, then you complain.

    Bookmark   September 15, 2012 at 2:45AM
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labrea_gw

I contend anyone who watches Bill O'Reilly & doesn't believe that it's anything like fixed wrestling is and idiot yes! Need only listen to all the people who had worked for FOX before & watch what he does.

    Bookmark   September 15, 2012 at 8:25AM
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ninamarie(4Ont.)

"...you give yourself and everyone here way too much credit to even consider that I even think about what is posted here... "

You just can't make this stuff up.
Let the insults begin.

    Bookmark   September 15, 2012 at 11:20AM
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greatgollymolly

Lily writes

Yes, you Repubs love the little zygotes and fetuses, it's just when there is a real live baby that might suck taxpayer money away from you when it has a life threatening illness and doesn't have health insurance, then you complain

========================================================

Your statement is a prime example of someone who does not understand the objections to the Obama care plan. It has nothing to do with what you just posted.

    Bookmark   September 15, 2012 at 11:38AM
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Circus Peanut

All that response but no capitalizations. I must be losing my touch.

    Bookmark   September 15, 2012 at 1:49PM
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dockside_gw

Your statement is a prime example of someone who does not understand the objections to the Obama care plan.

I didn't interpret that as anything to do with the Obama care plan. Have you not been following the news the past couple of years? Virginia requiring invasive, medically unnecessary vaginal ultrasounds? Arizona allowing employers to fire people who use birth control? Mississippi legislators putting out a constitutional amendment saying a fertilized egg is entitled to constitional protection (which the MS voters wisely rejected)? Arizona legislators saying conception occurs the day of the last period in counting weeks for the cutoff of abortions? "Personhood" bills being introduced in several states (so many I'd have to research it) giving rights to zygotes? Georgia legislators trying to force women to carry a dead fetus to term, just like one legislators pigs and cows? It's mind boggling.

You need to get out more.

    Bookmark   September 15, 2012 at 2:34PM
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demifloyd(8)

Posted by ninamarie 4Ont. (My Page) on
Sat, Sep 15, 12 at 11:20

"...you give yourself and everyone here way too much credit to even consider that I even think about what is posted here... "

You just can't make this stuff up.
Let the insults begin.

*

What's your point? Make what up?
That's the truth.

I in fact don't sit around thinking up cute things to say here and wait for an opportunity to do so--I don't care enough to do that. I find it strange that not only would anyone do that, but that anyone would speculate that anyone else would do that.

Who cares why other posters do what they do or not?

The rest of the quote is, "...once I sign off and leave the computer desk."

It's true, out of sight, out of mind!

Sorry--I couldn't care less where you live, what socioeconomic group you are, whether you are an atheist or a Christian or Wiccan or anything else. I don't care where you work or who you work for, I don't care if you live in a tent or a McMansion or a bungalow or a palace.

I have no need to insult you or anyone, ninamarie, because you give your opinion about a topic.

There is no need for animosity here and there won't be any if people stop answering opinions with personal insults.

    Bookmark   September 15, 2012 at 3:09PM
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greatgollymolly

dockside you are painting all people who oppose Obama with one big paint brush. You are saying we (I'm including myself even though I'm an indepen and I will be voting repub this time around) all think like those nut cases out there trying to pass crazy legislation. Just like the democrats cannot contain their zealots, neither can independents or republicans.

I apologize for not following your thought process on that post. That's what I said on another thread, it is sometimes difficult to interpret what we write. I thought you were saying Republicans don't want to take care of babies who are ill with their tax payer money and I thought you were saying Repub's didn't want their tax dollars that would go to Obama care to go to help sick babies.

    Bookmark   September 15, 2012 at 4:33PM
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dockside_gw

ggm, it was lily who said what you were responding to. I interpreted what lily posted to mean that Republicans don't give a darn about babies after they are born. They are only concerned about the zygote, embryo, fetus until it is born. Once they have to pay taxpayer's money for its health care, etc., they no longer have any concern for that fully human being. At least not if it costs them money.

    Bookmark   September 15, 2012 at 7:38PM
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jodik_gw

I know how difficult it might be, but maybe some people should simply close their eyes and imagine that every penny they pay in tax goes toward the program or to the part of government they like best. That way, it wouldn't cause such headaches, ulcers, and it would lessen the complaints regarding the very tiny slice of funds that actually do go toward public assistance.

Personally, I think "life" begins when a fetus is able to survive without the umbilical connection to its mother. Before such time, it can't be a legal "person" because it can't survive on its own. As people, why do we celebrate birth days and not conception days if our lives do, indeed, begin at that point?

I guess what confuses me the most is the Republican idea that "smaller" government is better, yet more control is needed through more laws... enforcing all that control and law would require bigger government, though. So, right off the bat we have a discrepancy.

And then, we should legislate to protect dividing cells at all costs, but negate any legislation that might help keep actual living people healthy and safe. Discrepancy number two.

Are there any Republican ideas that don't negate themselves through contradiction? I'm not sure. Just today, we learned that Santorum thinks conservatives are not intelligent, that the collection of people involved do not contain within their ranks any smart people.

Contradiction and discrepancy are hardly good ways to attract intelligent, cogent people to join a group or think in a like-minded way... in my opinion.

    Bookmark   September 15, 2012 at 8:46PM
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greatgollymolly

Jodik writes,

Personally, I think "life" begins when a fetus is able to survive without the umbilical connection to its mother.

========================================================

So you don't think that living breathing baby in the womb is alive? You'd murder a baby that is 8 months old in the womb? Just want to get clarification on that.

About government spending, we want to know our money is not being thrown away. Do you like throwing your money away? Do you take your money and go throw it out the window and say "oh well I won't worry where it goes, it's just money?" What you are saying isn't logical. I don't get it. No intelligent, hard working individual would have that attitude of not caring where their money goes. Maybe you could understand it better if someone told you "Ms. Jodik we're sorry we can't help with your medical expenses because this woman is stealing food stamps and we don't have enough to go around so you're out, you understand don't you? We're going to just continue to let her steal the food stamps and you'll have to continue to suffer."

That little slice as you call it of fraud totals into the billions so it's not such a little slice!! $1 is too much AFAIC because I hate a thief.

I'm just trying to understand this logic of throwing money away. I don't have enough to do that. LOL

    Bookmark   September 15, 2012 at 9:10PM
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lily316(z5PA)

A baby isn't breathing in the womb. I am pro choice but I would not be in the final trimester unless the health of the mother was in jeopardy or the baby was brain dead or would live just minutes.

    Bookmark   September 16, 2012 at 2:20AM
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dublinbay z6 (KS)

According to the Supreme Court (Roe v Wade), "viability" is when a fetus is able to survive without the umbilical connection the woman. The viability date is, according to modern science, when the fetus is around 6 months old which is about 24 weeks. That is the point, therefore, at which the choice of abortion is severely restricted to rape, incest, or life/health of the woman.

So, no--no one advocates "murdering" an 8-month old fetus.

A fetus is not considered a "person" (a being capable of living--breathing--independent of the umbilical cord or outside the womb") before the 24 week "viability" date. It is not developed enough to be considered a "person" before that date.

Before "viability"--fetus
After "viability"--person

So says modern medicine/science and the Supreme Court.

As to when "life" begins (a totally different issue), there are many different "beliefs" out there. The Supreme Court (in Roe v Wade) studied that issue thoroughly and concluded that there were so many different beliefs (based on "belief," not on empirical science) that it was impossible for them to declare whether any one "belief" was correct or not--which is why they did not rule on "beliefs" which would mean they would have to promote some religious "beliefs" and censor other religious and nonreligious "beliefs"--which would be a violation of the 1st Amendment.

Please be more precise about your language on these matters. The language of certain religious "beliefs" is not arguable or provable--it simply indicates no more than a "belief" -- which is contradicted by many other "beliefs."

Kate

    Bookmark   September 16, 2012 at 5:01AM
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jodik_gw

Whatever language is used, I hold with the same opinions on the issue, and think the ruling in Roe vs. Wade was well thought out and decided.

"Viable", meaning "having reached a stage of development at which further development can occur independently of the mother", is the current definition offered by the medical and Ob/Gyn community at large.

"Life" is described as "The properties or qualities that distinguish living plants and organisms from dead or inanimate matter, including the capacity to grow, metabolize nutrients, respond to stimuli, reproduce, and adapt to the environment. The definitive beginning and end of human life are complex concepts informed by medical, legal, sociological, and religious considerations."

Since church and state are still separate entities, and beliefs are individual and personal, I think it wisest to allow the individual to make the choice or choices that best suit their own beliefs and individual situations, and not force opposing beliefs to interfere. Our Supreme Court seems to agree.

The idea that no one is pro-abortion is mentioned every time we go through this subject matter discussing the various facts, laws, and opinions... but very few seem to acknowledge this point... nor is it acknowledged very often that education and prevention are ways to lessen the occurrence of abortion. If we wish to lessen the occurrence, we must provide information and alternatives.

One would think the average intelligent individual would see a large difference between livestock and human lives, for instance... or know that fetuses gestating within the womb are not actually breathing, as Lily mentioned; they receive oxygen via "the mothers blood by diffussion across the placenta".

I think if a mother's life is in imminent peril, the removal of a fetus would be an acceptable action to take, regardless of gestation. I also think it wise to remove expired fetal matter from the mother in a timely manner. Both actions can serve to save a woman's life. Both actions can also make it possible for her to reproduce again at a future time.

A lot is possible within today's medical world. I don't think anything should be ruled out, keeping in mind that each situation can vary greatly from another. There is no "one size fits all" answer to pregnancy and birth. And this is precisely why I think the decisions and choices are best left within the hands of the individual. It's a private matter between patient and medical staff.

Kind of like choosing how much soda one wishes to consume, what the individual does or does not do with their very own body is a decision best left to them.

    Bookmark   September 16, 2012 at 10:12AM
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