Northern Arrowwood, V. recognitum

newyorkrita(z6b/7a LI NY)July 30, 2003

I posted this yesterday and had a nice helpful response from ging but since all the posts got lost because of the server problems and I couldn't even get on the Garden Web site last night because it was down, I figgured hardly anyone actually saw it, so I am posting again. Don't have a copy so just have to write it from memory. Guess it will be close enough.

The place I get my conservation seedlings has the Northern Arrowwood, V. recognitum listed. I do have the more common V. dentatum Arrowwood but I am not familiar with the Northern Arrowwood. Is this a good shrub for bird attracting berries, is it an understory shub that grows in the shade and does it cross polinate with dentatum? Basicly what are the differences between the Northern Arrowwood and the dentatum?

Thanks!

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vonyon

According to Elaine NJ on another thread Arrowwood is V. dentatum. She says it is a species not a hybrid though. See "Still about Viburnum berries"

    Bookmark   July 30, 2003 at 1:52PM
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viburnumvalley(z5/6 KY)

I know you've got Kevin's treatise on V. dentatum and friends nearby. Review it, and realize that many of these listed species of viburnum (recognitum, bracteatum, deamii, molle, rafinesquianum, obliquum, etc.) are all very closely related to V. dentatum (thus the moniker for V. recognitum as northern arrowwood). As stated often before, the variations are geographic origin (north to south, and east to west), not so much in what the plant looks like or how it behaves. The variations will show up in WHEN IT BLOOMS, which is what you care about most!

Predicting that, in comparison with plants you already have, is like herding cats. If you are purchasing seedlings, then multiples from the same source will likely get you the genetic diversity and cross-pollination that you so richly deserve.

    Bookmark   July 30, 2003 at 6:48PM
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ging(7a)

Hey newyorkrita!
My luck to post on the day the site wipes everything. Maybe it's a hint. ;)
Viburnumvalley is quite correct about the different 'species' of these viburnum. Most of the ones in question are for the most part all 'dentatum'. The differences are so minor in most cases that if you got a bunch of leaves together you would have a truly difficult time making any i.d.'s. I believe the exception to that is the rafinesquianum. They do prefer sun to partial shade and heavy shade would have an effect on the flowering and fruiting like any other shrub. A lot of sun? A lot of response. In a way it's a pity you can't purchase the shrubs when they are older and in their fall foliage; some are stunning and others are positively dull for no apparent reason. In Dirr's manual he mentions a V.bracteatum named 'Emerald Luster' that is evidently a true knockout. If you should come across one of those I'd grab it!
Just FYI, Dirr also says that the flowers are basically the same on all of these 'dentatum-a-likes' with any differences coming down to the bud scar, slight leaf shape, etc level. Unless you start getting into hybrids, cultivars and the rest I wouldn't worry about significant flowering differences in appearance or quantity.
Best to you and hope they are all lovely,
Ging (I don't get to enjoy the berries much on my Blackhaws. The birds strip them in a split second. Of course, that is the point, but geez... .)

    Bookmark   August 3, 2003 at 1:53AM
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kevin_5(z5)

What I suspect are wild V. recognitum are growing here in my woods in deep shade, as well as in the full sun wetlands. I would say "quite adaptable"! Unfortunately, the deer make sure they never get big enough to bloom.

    Bookmark   August 5, 2003 at 8:21PM
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newyorkrita(z6b/7a LI NY)

Ok, so they will cross pollinate with my V. dentatum if they bloom at the same time. That would be absolutely fanastic! But are V. dentatum called Southern Arrowood and V. recognitum Northern because they bloom at different times or just because they are mostly found each in the northern or southern sections of the country???? Are they good berry setters?

Now, in case they don't overlapp the bloom time of any other Arrowwoods here at my place, will muliple V. recognitum bought in a conservation package pollinate each other? I doubt very much these were seed grown as I bought elderberry and shrub dogwoods from the conservation nursery this past Spring and I am sure from looking at the shrublets I received that they were grown from cuttings.

    Bookmark   August 13, 2003 at 12:12PM
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newyorkrita(z6b/7a LI NY)

So, would the Northern Arrowwood be expected to bloom before the Southern Arrowwood? Or does that have nothing to do with anything and I just expect something with the word south in it to bloom before something with the word north?

    Bookmark   August 27, 2003 at 1:07PM
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kevin_5(z5)

I suspect it has nothing to do with anything. As you are now realizing, there is tremendous variation in arrowwood bloom times. The cultivars will bloom in a consistent ORDER, but seed grown species can be all over the map. It sounds like you are gathering up enough varieties to ensure overlap in bloom times. That was my solution. Get as many as you can squeeze in. They are tremendous fruit producers, and most all the cultivars also have wonderful fall color('Chicago Lustre' being a glaring exception). Throw in some related natives if you so desire. Add the peeling bark of V. molle, or the almost fake-looking glossy leaved V. deamii. V. rafinesquianum is nice, as is V. recognitum. In this case, you can't possibly go wrong! I was admiring the dark, dark green glossy leaves of 'Autumn Jazz' just this afternoon, thinking what a nice plant it has grown into. It's a useful family.

    Bookmark   August 27, 2003 at 9:58PM
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newyorkrita(z6b/7a LI NY)

I pretty much figgured out that I was just going to have to get more Arrowwood clones, maybe more species. They don't have anything like 'Autumn Jazz' or 'Rasbery Tart' around the local nurseries. Of course I will still be looking this Fall.

Some of the Viburnums lesser known you mentioned certainly aren't going to be found at any local nursery.

I have nothing to loose by ordering the V. recognitum next spring. The plants are cheap and I am ordering from the nursery anyway. Might as well try some and hope for the best as far as fruiting is concerned.

    Bookmark   August 28, 2003 at 4:43PM
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newyorkrita(z6b/7a LI NY)

Well, I was looking around at the conservation Nursery website and I found the information that they do grow everything from seed. I had thought that maybe they did cuttings but aparently thats not so. It's better that they grow from seed as the Northern Arrowwood seedlings could all bloom at different times. My, my, this is going to be interesting as they get old enough to flower. Good news for pollination for the things I have already planted from the nursery such as my Silky and Grey Dogwoods and Red Elderberries.

I am going to go for more Silky and Grey Dogwood, American Black Elderberries, maybe more Red Elderberries and the Northern Arrowwood next spring from them.

    Bookmark   September 5, 2003 at 12:27PM
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newyorkrita(z6b/7a LI NY)

I am still waiting for my new 2004 Catalog from New Hampshire State Nurseries to decide on what all conservation type seedling shrubs to order for Spring.

    Bookmark   November 29, 2003 at 1:38PM
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newyorkrita(z6b/7a LI NY)

Anyone order this shrub from NH State Nursery? I am waiting on my order for common elderberries and more shrub dogwoods from them.

    Bookmark   March 23, 2004 at 4:26PM
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macrep(z5 NY)

Hi All! I'm new to this forum, so please bear with me. I had purchased 3 arrowwoods from a local landscaper, and have enjoyed them for 10 years. All of a sudden they're dead! I was told that there has been an invasion of beetles that have pretty much wiped out the arrowwood population in our area (Ithaca, NY). Has anyone else had this happen?

    Bookmark   May 17, 2004 at 1:59PM
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vonyon

Rita: I ordered, received and now planted 10 V. recognitum. I already posted a few times and mentioned to everyone I know that I have been extremely pleased with the quality of these plants. I sure hope that I don't get hit with these beetles.

    Bookmark   May 17, 2004 at 9:50PM
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LauraZone5

What beetles?

    Bookmark   May 18, 2004 at 10:01AM
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newyorkrita(z6b/7a LI NY)

Viburnum Beetles. Moving South from Canada. Already in upstate New York.

    Bookmark   May 18, 2004 at 2:32PM
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vonyon

ARGH!! I just planted about 100 different viburnums of varying species! I thought deer and rabbits would be my biggest problems.

    Bookmark   May 18, 2004 at 4:20PM
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LauraZone5

Special! I just planted about 100 Viburnums too. My favorite being V. tomentosa "Shasta".

    Bookmark   May 19, 2004 at 5:35AM
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roseunhip(z5b QC)

Thanks vonyon for the heads-up!
My V. dentatum (variety unidentified by the producer) LOOKS like slowly recovering this spring from his fierce beetle attack of last year. Had been recently transplanted BTW, therefore more stressed I suppose, plus from that chokingly hot summer perhaps... FYI, the whole of my other Viburnums (that is, trilobum, cassinoides, lentago, alnifolia and lantana, and whether they're specimens from nurseries or from the wild), all in the same 100x75 ft suburban patch, is totally unaffected so far by that specific beetle.
BTW, the dentatum-related species that is native in the area here (S-W Quebec) is raffinesquianum... which I have never even seen in my life, but that looks so lovely on the photos! Bet it's resistant!!

    Bookmark   May 19, 2004 at 8:17AM
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viburnumvalley(z5/6 KY)

See nearby thread on Blue Muffin arrowwood for more about the viburnum leaf beetle pest, and Cornell's extensive website link.

Here is a link that might be useful: VLB: the viburnum leaf beetle

    Bookmark   May 25, 2004 at 6:54AM
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newyorkrita(z6b/7a LI NY)

I think Arrowood Viburnums are supposed to be one of the ones most decimated by the Viburnum leaf beetles. Figgures as I have many Arrowood Viburnums in my yard now!

    Bookmark   August 13, 2004 at 6:24PM
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newyorkrita(z6b/7a LI NY)

I still did not order any of these because I didn't order from NH State Forest Nursery this year. I have a spot I could put them but it still needs work before I could plant there so I haven't gotten around to it as yet. The yard improvement projects never seem to end around here!

    Bookmark   January 23, 2005 at 6:04PM
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viburnumvalley(z5/6 KY)

Thanks for continuing to bump these threads. How has the blizzard treated you and your viburnums?

    Bookmark   January 24, 2005 at 6:44AM
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newyorkrita(z6b/7a LI NY)

It's COLD outside and lots of snow in the yard. I hope all my shrubs and plants make it thru the winter!

    Bookmark   January 24, 2005 at 11:30AM
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lesleynd(z3/4 ND)

Are the viburnum leaf beatles still around?

    Bookmark   February 23, 2005 at 5:48PM
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sarahbn(z6Pa.)

They have invaded Pennsylvania but in the forest. Sarah

    Bookmark   February 23, 2005 at 6:41PM
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Flowerkitty(Z6 or Z5 SE MI)

I ordered the Wetlands Package from NH State Forest Nursery this year, which includes 5 each viburnum recognitum, elderberry, winterberry, buttonbush, wetlands rose. The web site says shipping begins this week. I can't wait until they come. I had planned to buy V.dentatum but could not resist the great deal

    Bookmark   April 7, 2005 at 2:49PM
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vonyon

Flowerkitty: I hope you like the stock. I ordered about 100 shrubs from them last year and was very pleased with the size of the plants. I ordered more this year too. As far as I can tell (and it is still early) most seem to have survived the winter. Please let us know how they look when they get there.

    Bookmark   April 9, 2005 at 9:00PM
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