Do as I say, not as I do?

jon_in_wessex(z8/9 UK)November 22, 2012

Recalling President Obama's blanket endorsement of Israel's right to 'self defence' the other day:

Obama said peace in the region must begin with "no missiles being fired into Israel's territory."

"No country on earth would tolerate missiles raining down,"

It did seem a rather strange remark from a President who orders missile strikes on Pakistan.

In fact, it could almost be taken as justification for Pakistani retaliation elsewhere . . .

Best wishes

Jon

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Brushworks Spectacular Finishes(5)

Does it surprise you that the oppressor supports the oppressor against the oppressed?

    Bookmark   November 22, 2012 at 7:22AM
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lionheart_gw

Well, it's hard to argue that sort of equivalency. I agree with the OP's observation. There are some nuanced differences, but the general metaphor stands pretty well.

    Bookmark   November 22, 2012 at 7:28AM
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pnbrown

I agree indeed that it's a hypocritical position, but not strange. It's rather an entirely expected attitude now from the rulers of the Anglo-conglomerate and Israel.

    Bookmark   November 22, 2012 at 8:04AM
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hamiltongardener(CAN 6a)

Dropping bombs or firing rockets are horrendous breaches of human rights and terrible crimes against civilians.

Unless you wave the right flag. Then anything you and your allies do is completely moral and right.

    Bookmark   November 22, 2012 at 8:19AM
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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

It did seem a rather strange remark from a President who orders missile strikes on Pakistan.

Indeed.

    Bookmark   November 22, 2012 at 10:21AM
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jodik_gw

What Nancy said.

    Bookmark   November 23, 2012 at 4:13AM
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tobr24u(z6 RI)

We have to destroy them so that they may gain an appreciation of the American way of life...

    Bookmark   November 23, 2012 at 4:58AM
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october17(5chgo)

Yes, yes. There must be another way. Just hunker down in the rain of rockets and think, man, think.

    Bookmark   November 23, 2012 at 6:32AM
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pnbrown

.....hmmm, yes, maybe not let these Zionists continue to run the show?

    Bookmark   November 23, 2012 at 6:49AM
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elvis

...hmmm, yes, absurd concept, allowing THAT.

    Bookmark   November 23, 2012 at 3:24PM
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pnbrown

Just like we "allowed" Bush to invade Iraq and Afghanistan......

    Bookmark   November 23, 2012 at 6:45PM
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david52_gw

And it never occurs to anybody that the justifiable fury shown by the Israeli's when they're hit by missiles and the nearly unquenchable urge to retaliate - just might show up among the Pakistani's and Yemeni's and Somali's and Libyans and who knows who else targeted by our missiles.

And the rockets that hit targets in Gaza might just illicit the same response.

Because thats ok because they're terrorists. Never a miss, those women and children are collaterals, the bad guys hide in houses and schools and hospitals and so thats why.

This is where I should ad something poetic about merchants of war and all that, but its just too disgusting.

    Bookmark   November 23, 2012 at 7:59PM
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hamiltongardener(CAN 6a)

And it never occurs to anybody that the justifiable fury shown by the Israeli's when they're hit by missiles and the nearly unquenchable urge to retaliate - just might show up among the Pakistani's and Yemeni's and Somali's and Libyans and who knows who else targeted by our missiles.

Yes, it has crossed my mind. Many times.

I get weary of pushing that point though. It's either ignored, or somehow justified as "them or us"... Ironic how when GW Bush took that viewpoint he was an evil warmonger but now the "them or us", "collateral damage" viewpoint is perfectly fine.

Will the family members of the drone bombing victims also take a "them or us" attitude? Would they be justified in doing so?

    Bookmark   November 23, 2012 at 9:24PM
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david52_gw

I was listening to some reporter who had covered Yemen for years, and was talking about how the drone strikes had increased the ranks of the terrorists there 4-fold: 500 to 2,000.

But hey, look at it from the point of view of Raytheon, or who ever makes the drone missiles.

    Bookmark   November 24, 2012 at 12:01AM
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Brushworks Spectacular Finishes(5)

and we are told by the current administration that this is a war of necessity, not a choice; that can't be won by military power, but diplomacy, development and good governance.

After 11 years of military power, when does the diplomacy and good governance begin? Do we expect to accomplish in two years what we couldn't accomplish in 11 years?

    Bookmark   November 24, 2012 at 6:52AM
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elvis

The drone strikes bring to mind wasp stings. It takes an awful lot of stings to kill an organism; usually the thing being stung gets pissed off and sometimes even seeks to destroy the source.

Around here, we wait till dark and hit the nest with killing spray.

    Bookmark   November 24, 2012 at 11:18AM
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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

The drone strikes bring to mind wasp stings. It takes an awful lot of stings to kill an organism

Not a good analogy.

Organisms are being killed - and the civilian casualties are under-reported, if they are mentioned at all.

As far as hitting the nest, that is what the U.S. military believes it is doing. If ground troops are proposed - and I doubt that U.S. troops would be deployed - you have the example of the Pakistan army in the Swat Valley and the resulting refugee crisis. And the radical Islamists were better organized at offering aid to the refugees than the Pakistan government.

Swat valley could be worst refugee crisis since Rwanda, UN warns

    Bookmark   November 24, 2012 at 11:52AM
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david52_gw

At the link is an article about the Obama administration and the drone policies, worth a read. Short excerpt:

"The matter may have lost some urgency after Nov. 6. But with more than 300 drone strikes and some 2,500 people killed by the Central Intelligence Agency and the military since Mr. Obama first took office, the administration is still pushing to make the rules formal and resolve internal uncertainty and disagreement about exactly when lethal action is justified.

Mr. Obama and his advisers are still debating whether remote-control killing should be a measure of last resort against imminent threats to the United States, or a more flexible tool, available to help allied governments attack their enemies or to prevent militants from controlling territory.

"Though publicly the administration presents a united front on the use of drones, behind the scenes there is longstanding tension. The Defense Department and the C.I.A. continue to press for greater latitude to carry out strikes; Justice Department and State Department officials, and the president's counterterrorism adviser, John O. Brennan, have argued for restraint, officials involved in the discussions say."

Here is a link that might be useful: link

    Bookmark   November 25, 2012 at 10:55AM
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hamiltongardener(CAN 6a)

As far as hitting the nest, that is what the U.S. military believes it is doing.

Actually, if you follow the analogy, the source of all those stings (drone stikes) is the USA (nest) and the organism getting stung(Pakistan, Yemen) may seek to destroy the source.

    Bookmark   November 25, 2012 at 11:09AM
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marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

I remain troubled by the easy application of death-by-drone as public policy as if the actions were advancing US international relations. The idea of "loaning" out the technology to friends and allies of today is equally troubling. Talk about bringing the shades of The Terminator down to earth.

    Bookmark   November 25, 2012 at 11:13AM
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elvis

Nancy: "As far as hitting the nest, that is what the U.S. military believes it is doing."
Hamilton: "Actually, if you follow the analogy, the source of all those stings (drone stikes) is the USA (nest) and the organism getting stung(Pakistan, Yemen) may seek to destroy the source."

----------------

That is my point. Thank you, Hamilton :)

    Bookmark   November 25, 2012 at 1:03PM
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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

the organism getting stung(Pakistan, Yemen) may seek to destroy the source.

And what part of the organism would that be? The official military of the governments, or militias, or non-regular military? Are you speaking of symmetriacal or asymmetrical warfare?

In any case, 'destroy the source' is hardly possible given the security surrounding the bases, and the U.S. money flowing to our leaders of choice in Pakistan and Yemen. More likely - and this is loosely speaking even as a possibility - is that another military power will use drones on suspected whatevers within the U.S. borders. Not that such an action would stop escalating development and use of drones for warfare. If we haven't made much progress in limiting the stockpile of nuclear weapons on the planet, I don't hold much hope for abolishing drone warfare. Instead we will see the an anti-drone equivalent to President Reagan's 'Star Wars' aka more money down a rat hole.

I forgot to mention -- there is a virus that infected the drones run out of Creech in Nevada. If a virus could be introduced to disable the system, perhaps that would 'destroy the source' temporarily.

    Bookmark   November 25, 2012 at 1:27PM
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hamiltongardener(CAN 6a)

And what part of the organism would that be? The official military of the governments, or militias, or non-regular military? Are you speaking of symmetriacal or asymmetrical warfare?

That's where terrorists (or freedom fighters, depending on who you ask) come in. They strike back at the nest any way they can. Roadside bombs, missles fired at drones or planes, attacking military bases or soldier patrols are only one way to destroy the Nest.

Funding groups that offer protection, hijacking airliners and flying them into the Nest's financial and military structures, or Bin Laden's preferred way to destroy the Nest... he wanted to bankrupt the Nest by making them spend billions of dollars on warfare and homeland security.

So far, I'd say that is the most effective way to kill the nest. He proved that it works. New generations now just have to continue on with the plan. And these drone strikes are creating plenty of new generations...

    Bookmark   November 25, 2012 at 3:27PM
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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

So far, I'd say that is the most effective way to kill the nest.

And then comes the next wave of U.S. fighter jets to bomb some hinterland back to the Stone Age.

    Bookmark   November 25, 2012 at 3:31PM
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hamiltongardener(CAN 6a)

And then comes the next wave of U.S. fighter jets to bomb some hinterland back to the Stone Age.

Until the money runs out, at least. Which seems like it will be sooner rather than later, judging by the way the debt is climbing.

So what happens when you're on equal footing with all the countries that you've bombed, killed, maimed, raped, and wasted over the years?

I guess... hope they have a more forgiving nature.

    Bookmark   November 25, 2012 at 4:05PM
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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Until the money runs out, at least. Which seems like it will be sooner rather than later

The military-industrial-intelligence complex is alarmed about a possible reduction in the Pentagon budget due to the so-called fiscal cliff. I'm afraid money will be found for war defense. Just listen to the right-wing rhetoric regarding the U.S. social safety net, as reduced as it is; bunch of lazy louts with their hands out, it's no use spending more money on education, etc.

We'll be the praetorian guards for the next super power -- sort of like the day laborers looking for work in front of the big-box home improvement stores, or storage complexes.

    Bookmark   November 25, 2012 at 4:14PM
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hamiltongardener(CAN 6a)

I'm afraid money will be found for war defense.

I guess we (as in both your country and mine) are going to have to find leaders who are no longer willing to put the war machine ahead of the well being of the citizens.

Easier said than done, I know. But at some point the money WILL run out.

    Bookmark   November 25, 2012 at 5:11PM
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jon_in_wessex(z8/9 UK)

This interesting site gives some information on who is using whose drones at the moment.

As to my original post - it was just an observation on how blatant the doublespeak has become.

There have been some interesting discussions on the morality of national self-defense - particularly relating to the mistake of equating it with the concept of 'domestic' or personal self-defense.

Self-defense as an argument for military aggression fails if it is disproportionate, if there are other unexplored means of solving the conflict, or if the action in fact brings the likelihood of increased casualties to your population due to retaliatory actions.

Best wishes
Jon

Here is a link that might be useful: Drone wars

    Bookmark   November 25, 2012 at 6:52PM
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PRO
Brushworks Spectacular Finishes(5)

"The CIA and the military use drones to drop bombs on our suspected enemies and no one denies that innocent people have been killed in the process. The only debate is how many."

Here is a link that might be useful: Killing the innocent.

    Bookmark   November 26, 2012 at 5:07PM
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