That's if you believe it exists and you get there. Ted Turner said it would be like Montana in the summer. For me it would be RI in the fall now, at a younger age it would have been in the summer on the water...
A place where there is no baseball offseason ;-)
(I don't believe but I answered anyway)
The old hymn, "In the Garden" says it all for me.
I come to the garden alone
While the dew is still on the roses
And the voice I hear falling on my ear
The Son of God discloses.
And He walks with me, and He talks with me,
And He tells me I am His own;
And the joy we share as we tarry there,
None other has ever known.
He speaks, and the sound of His voice,
Is so sweet the birds hush their singing,
And the melody that He gave to me
Within my heart is ringing.
I’d stay in the garden with Him
Though the night around me be falling,
But He bids me go; through the voice of woe
His voice to me is calling.
And of course being reunited with all those that I love.
MrSkjun, Ah … so long ago my mother and i would sing this song together as she played the piano. What a heavenly memory.
Heaven for me will be when I can be with my brother again and share in a way we only began.
I look forward to and hope that I'll get to cheer and marvel when truths are revealed and some understanding of the organization of creativity is made known, when questions will be answered and ignorance put to eternal sleep.
Will there be music? Will there be an atmosphere to carry sound? Music, music, music. A symphony of drums. Singing and playing in harmony
I hope to be in a place where I can witness the elevation to understanding, peace and joy for those that suffered in this life.
I have no clue, but I can only trust that there is someone at the helm that has thought the whole thing out and has the will and ability and proper tools to … what? …. make or do what …
Candy Crush without having to wait.
I'm an atheist, so I can't go with any of the traditional hype from the imaginations, or machinations, of religionists.
But I'm not ashamed to admit that I just don't know what happens next. I'll find out when I cross that bridge, I guess.
What I do know is that, logically, death is nothing to fear... we all have to die. I also know that the physical bodies our energy is currently housed within are only for temporary use, so we won't be needing them beyond this life, this journey. They will decompose and continue feeding the endless cycle of life, the ecosystem on this planet.
But where the energy within... some might call it a soul or a spirit, or self... where that goes once it parts ways with this physical world and body... I'm not sure. Perhaps to another plane, another dimension, or maybe it just joins with and becomes part of the positive and negative energy cycles that ebb and flow within this world, or the Universe... or, maybe nothing happens. Maybe we are silenced forever and this is our one shot at living, at finding love and peace and joy.
Or is the question really... what would we each WANT our afterlife to be like?
Here is a trick . When you run out of lives set the date on your computer/Ipad/phone one day ahead.. Go back into Candy Crush and then go back and reset date to today ;)
Heaven for me would be right here on earth with no war, hate, discrimination or poverty.
I'd be able to give my mom a hug and ask "How are you?"
All of my dogs will greet me at the gate. No heaven without them too.
Candy Crush? It must be something fabulous to be the answer to this question.
What heaven would be like for me:
Leaving my body and instantly knowing I still exist, being aware of overwhelming love and light and the assurance that I was returning to the Source of All.
Knowing that I was forgiven for my failures and shortcomings in life because I tried and because I accepted the gift of salvation. Knowing that my Creator loves me, all of me, the good and the bad and wants me to be happy. Knowing that I would spend eternity in the presence of the Creator.
I would hope that I would have access to the secrets of the universe and human behavior that I have wondered about since I was a very small child and throughout my life and an understanding of the whys of life that have perplexed me and sometimes caused me to question my faith.
In heaven, I want to see and know my husband and instantly know that he too, now understands all these things. I want him to feel my love in a way he never had before and I want us to have a relationship of some sort in heaven--whatever the Creator will allow, as I want with all of the loved ones that I have known before. I want to see everyone that I ever exchanged a knowing glance with when I was in a store or on the street throughout my life and share love and understanding with them.
I want people that do not believe in God, and people that are not sure, to cross from this life into the next and instantly know that there is a God and a life everlasting and to have the choice right then and there to accept or reject God, with the loving light all around them.
I have not considered much what a physical heaven would be or what souls would do, only a spiritual heaven. But of course I trust God to provide what we need in the way of a physical heaven--perhaps it is an individual heaven, and perhaps an individual hell--what our minds or souls conjure or deserve.
In that case, it would be beautiful, verdant mountains and valleys, flowers, water, and music and fragrant breezes.
I would like it if all animals were in heaven too, but I'm not sure about the roaches.
This post was edited by demifloyd on Wed, Nov 20, 13 at 10:43
The biggest, cleanest, and most beautiful library ever.
A vast, smooth-as-glass outdoor ice rink (better yet, a natural river), endless sunny and chilly days, friendly fellow skaters who help each other up, plenty of hot coffee and rum stations along the way, and the skating is free and fast.
Ahhhhhhhh....I can only dream.
All encompassing light and no more need for emotions, the last being part of punishment of Adam and Eve and their descendents. Love is but belonging and believing in something or someone. Ephemeral for many in this imperfect world.
[hmmmm, i seem to be starting this day a bit rocky]
Sounds like heaven will be like the earth on a good day for many of you. If upon death all universal truths are suddenly known to us then I suspect we'll all be quite surprised. Maybe Purgatory is first step, used as an indoctrination school on how to handle the truth? Me thinks we'll be shocked at learning the level of our earthly life ignorance. But hey, it's always nice to think that better things are ahead of us.
I'd be happy if my version of afterlife didn't include physical pain, and I could once again unite with the people and animals I've loved, and I could view all the plants and flowers I've ever wanted to grow.
Oh, and all the chocolate and other sweets I could ever taste without the effects of the real deal. That would be cool, too. ;-)
This is an interesting thread, tobr.
I must admit that I am surprised that the physical pleasures of the world seem to be on the forefront of the list of a heavenly heaven.
The late Christopher Hitchens described 'heaven' as a Celestial North Korea:
"There's very little evidence that I'll see you all again in some 'theme park'- one nice and one nasty."
"Do I think I am going to
Paradise? Of Course Not. I wouldn't go if I was
asked. I don't want to live in some ++++++g
Celestial North Korea for one thing. Where all I
get to do is praise the dear leader from dawn till
"“The offer of certainty, the offer of complete security, the offer of an impermeable faith that can’t give way, is an offer of something not worth having. I want to live my life taking the risk all the time that I don’t know anything like enough yet; that I haven’t understood enough; that I can’t know enough; that I’m always hungrily operating on the margins of a potentially great harvest of future knowledge and wisdom. I wouldn’t have it any other way.”
Here is a link that might be useful: short link
Fields of wildflowers, lakes, and mountains and a big rainbow bridge where all nineteen of all the pets I have had are standing on the other side waiting for me, meowing and tails wagging. That would be heaven to me. Then we would search for our human family and friends.
Well I guess Christopher Hitchens has found out by now whether or not Heaven exists and whether he was right or wrong about it.
To me, Heaven is a place of peace, joy and happiness. No more no pain, no sorrow, no wars, no separation from loved ones, no more sin. I want to see all my loved ones and animals who have gone before me. I hope they have seminars as I, like Demi, would like answers to unanswerable question which I have now. I want to stroll through the gardens and enjoy the beauty of the trees and flowers there. I want to be able to take my animals and hike the mountains with them, to run with them through the fields and to swim with them in the rivers, lakes and oceans like we used to do before arthritis and other medical problems set in. But first and foremost I want to meet my God and Creator.
Posted by Lady_Brat none (My Page) on
Wed, Nov 20, 13 at 13:37
But first and foremost I want to meet my God and Creator.
And serve HIM or HER or IT as they want if and/or as they want.
"I must admit that I am surprised that the physical pleasures of the world seem to be on the forefront of the list of a heavenly heaven."
Seems natural, Demi. We can relate to the physical and so naturally use physical metaphors to describe the spiritual.
When this soul with its body off (thank you, W.B. Yeats) arrives at that place we have only our human senses and experience to describe, I'd expect there to be nothing between me and the face of God.
The good Dominicans of my youth always told us we would want for nothing more than that. That seemed logical to me then. If I had to believe in a Heaven now that would still seem the most logical.
Endless mountain running trails along the river and the peace that comes from being there.
Interesting that so many brief images of heaven have human beings edited out. :)
For me, humans would be there -- enlightened, best versions of themselves -- but it would definitely be without that all powerful nonhuman who loves me without human limits but will send me to eternal torment in a lake of fire if I don't join the right church and chant the right words. Whenever my Bible Belt neighbors talk of their Heavenly Kingdom, I always cynically wonder if there's a tunnel under the wall. Just in case.
And, yes, in physical terms for me it would also be a wonderful library (my very first thought, TxanGoddess), set in beautiful gardens and meadows where all our pets would play and laze in the sun through eternity.
I don't know why some people wonder if their pets will be there. Isa 11:6 The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together; and a little child shall lead them.
Rosie: I was thinking of my husband and my kids while I was thinking of my heaven but I was afraid that if I had them there I would jinx their lives and they would be there before me. I don't want that to happen. I will wait for them there. :)
I find it interesting that as far as the idea of "heaven" goes, everyone describes what, for them, is an ideal of perfection.
The bible talks about how God's favorite angel, along with some others, defected. If we are to assume that God is perfect, I could never figure out why those, some who were favored above others (another imperfect inconsistency to me) would have rebelled against the perfection of God. How and why would a thinking being reject perfection?
And, since he created their very manner of existence, the angels then rebelled also against the manner of their existence with God. Why? Would God not have been aware that he created imperfect angels who would turn against him? That would not be a perfect creation. Why would perfection deliberately create imperfection? What would be the gain?
Why, after rejecting all that had been perfection and then being barred from his presence, did not the fallen angels quickly discover how terrible it was to live without the presence of God and the manner of existence of perfection they had with him? Would they then not fall to their knees in true repentance, begging for forgiveness? Or, were they content with the absence of God? And, how could that be?
It makes no sense to me.
I used to question ( primitive questions as I was very young) my religion teacher on some of these thoughts and was never given any answer which made sense but was given the distinct impression that continued questioning in that vein could bring about a reassessment of my good standing in her eyes. At the time it was very important to me to keep my good standing with all my teachers and with pretty much all authority figures. But I did wonder about things.
I dont know about other religions, but I do know of many Catholics around my age attending Catholic schools who also learned the wisdom of not asking certain questions. When I was much older, to question too deeply what I was taught in religion class meant that my seat could instead be given to someone who did accept the teachings- it was hard to get into the school so I knew to keep my questioning mouth firmly shut.
From my questions about those fallen angels and the why of it all and never given logical answers, I came to the conclusion as very young adult that although God might, indeed, be very good and very loving - perhaps he was not perfect after all. That if we are made in his image, that also meant some of our natural inclinations to faulty behavior was a reflection of faults he struggled with, also.
But then I finally rejected the idea a God, so unlike Jodi, I really do believe that when we die, that is it - no "energy" or left over whatever will be continuing to exist. We live and then we die.
So, I believe we must find our bits of joy ( "heaven") in snatches while we are alive, leaving behind the best possible "footprint" of who we were and what we did for others to elevate their lives. That will be our legacy for as long as there is a single person left to remember us.
Trying to live a life which enriches others is what I believe gives us a sense of peace about who we are and what we do. That peace allows for a kind of joy.
My heaven is found in the varied but fleeting moments of joy I experience throughout my life, I so savor them and remember them as I go about living my daily life.
Just a simple answer to your question mylab. No where in the Bible does it say that angels do not have free will. They were cast out of heaven because they rebelled against God. Of course we don't know if any of them repented.
Would God not have been aware that he created imperfect angels who would turn against him? That would not be a perfect creation. Why would perfection deliberately create imperfection? What would be the gain?
Your idea of perfection and God's aren't necessarily one and the same.
God's idea of perfection is most likely closer to someone CHOOSING to stay with him and love him.
God never forces anyone to love him, and loves us enough to give us the choice to accept and enjoy a relationship with him or not.
Perfection is the choice--what kind of God want would a love that is forced?
That does not remotely answer what used to be my questions. Free will had nothing to do with the subject. Of course they had free will and they freely exercised it.
Your answer is in the same vein as those which were given to me and left me feeling like I had asked a "wrong"question.
I know you werent being argumentative, Mrsk. You believe what you believe and you get a personal gain through your belief.
As finally, do I.
Its all good as far as Im concerned - unless I decide you must practice my belief my way or you decide I must practice your belief your way.
So what does free will have to do with your idea of perfection?
As I said, you can't think like God.
That's why it doesn't make sense to you.
So what about Heaven? Just fields of flowers, wispy grass, soft white clouds and rainbows every day?
No material goods, wining and dining, dating, sex, or other sinful behavior or earthly indulgence?
What about the joys of motherhood/fatherhood, child rearing, the excitement of watching or participating in competitive sport? How about having dogs and cats? And no iphones and internet or is everything going to be kind of telepathic, where you just know what everyone is thinking?
And what about some of the challenges that life poses that make us want to strive to better ourselves and overcome adversity? No more of that, just one large silver platter?
And for Republicans isn't the notion that everyone is gonna be taken care of and given whatever they need or want the kind of supersocialisticespialadocious that makes them all batsh1t crazy here on Earth? And also too, what if Jesus turns out to not only be kind, fair and socialistic but also half black?
OM G right?
This post was edited by heri_cles on Thu, Nov 21, 13 at 3:49
I feel so sorry for you sometimes heri.
Would it be OK for God to be gay?
If God wants sexuality I am sure he can and will have any sexuality he wants.
I don't care about anyone's sexuality unless is causes them distress, and then I care about them. But it's all their business.
I would imagine heaven would have it's own experiences, something different or more intense than the ones we have here.
I don't know and don't care as long as I can be in the presence of The Creator to some degree.
I'll take whatever is supposed to be.
I don't need any Candy Crush (still don't know what that is!) or library or mountains or running brooks. I trust God to know what I need. I try to do that here, why wouldn't I do that in heaven? So to me this question was just an imagination, or idea, or what we might like.
I want all our souls to reach perfection to the extent that they are capable of doing so.
lol demi...I know what Candy Crush is, I'm on level 303, and I kind of understand what jz means.
Actually, blfenton, I was pretty sure "people" had to be close behind that first "brief" pastoral image for most. I didn't think of your reason, but of course.
I thought of this a bit more and decided all people should be there. The best versions of some might still be gravely lacking, but they'd add a little spice and provide something to talk about. What would heaven be without some pleasant gossip?
Eternity, though? I want to amend -- a heaven that could also be a pleasant time out before being reborn on earth - for those who chose a little less eternal joy, or just wanted another chance to meet the challenge.
For folks who have this belief are your heavens eternal or everlasting?
Good post, heri.
"I dont know about other religions, but I do know of many Catholics around my age attending Catholic schools who also learned the wisdom of not asking certain questions. "
mylab, I lived through the same schooling circumstances. I didn't stop asking questions and the non-answers usually came with a big dose of the Doubting Thomas story and a dash of Job tossed in for admonishment to humiliate me and as a stick to the script(ure) lesson to the others in the classroom.
A good long nap. Forever. Mmmmm.
Given that God apparently gave me free will why can't my heaven be of my own choosing or has it already been chosen for me. However, being agnostic, my heaven is probably going to be one heck of a party.
If the 40 posts above yours are any indication; your choosing, hoping, imagining the likes of Heaven are only limited by your creativity.
I wonder if people that don't believe in God, or rather choose not to accept God, just get what they want--no God, and if people that do choose to accept God into their lives, will go onto a heaven with their pets, their loved ones, and existence with the Creator.
Those who choose nothing get....nothing.
Demi, I read a book once by Piers Anthony called On a Pale Horse. It was about a guy who gets drafted to be Death and has to collect the souls of the dying and send them to their final destination (Heaven, Hell or Purgatory, which I thought lacked imagination but that's me :) ).
In one case, he was called to the side of an athiest (sp?) who didn't believe in the afterlife and when he went to collect the guy's soul, it evaporated. Your last post reminded me of that story. Was the guy better off? Maybe he was.
In my opinion, I doubt any afterlife is something we could comprehend in this life. I believe that all life forms are part of a universal life force. We rejoin it when we die and contribute our experiences to a bigger consciousness, the mind of God, if you like.
I'm with Jodi about hoping there is no pain. The closest I ever came to heaven in this life was taking Percocet after back surgery - no pain and a feeling of great well-being. No wonder that stuff is so addictive to some people. I hope no one takes offense at this statement. It is not meant to make light of drug issues, only to acknowledge a wonderful feeling.
I used to say" when I die I am goin to heaven cause I spent my time in hell".
But really, xcept for my 2 years in hell(1967-1968) Ive been living in heaven. I don't consider a few bad days to be hell, just stumbles. I really cant imagine anything better. When I exit this place, I'll just be ashes somewhere. Life is what ya make it.
" wonder if people that don't believe in God, or rather choose not to accept God, " from demi
once again you make the assumption that your "beliefs" are more than just that...
As usual, YQ.
But will get on that very high horse when she feels her own belief system to be in any way slighted. There are a ( very few) here who never fail to live down to certain expectations when the subject of God is brought up.
Watch what happens.
dreaded dbl post deleted
This post was edited by mylab123 on Thu, Nov 21, 13 at 16:30
Oh I thought demi asked a good question and as an agnostic, but a curious one, it is one I've often wondered about.
So if I don't believe in God do I then just go into nothingness?
However, because I lead a kind, giving and caring life, although one bereft of religion, do I get a Heaven at the end?
Questions, questions, questions, to which no one really as an answer. You can believe that "God" has given you an answer but really, no one knows for sure.
Just kind of musing here... on all that rejoining and recaptured togetherness in the Great Beyond. Do you think there'll be a separation of your good and your faithful from someone else's? Maybe that despised ex spouse and the dog that bit your kid (that was somebody's beloved pet) will be there too.
I don't want, nor would I even attempt, to dissuade someone from envisioning the after life as a Thomas Kinkade rendering or that filled with the tumbling putti in a Francois Boucher masterwork. You (generic) get to decide for yourself and not for anyone else.
I want to be pleasantly surprised.
If it's Thomas Kinkade, I ain't going!
mrskj saidI feel so sorry for you sometimes heri.
What the he11 does that mean and why shouldn't I take that personally?
If anyone is interested, here is yet another view. It's Randy Alcorn's book Heaven, a scripturally based description of what heaven will be like...right here on this new earth. Really interesting.
For those of us who don't believe, there's nothing to choose or accept... so demi's supercilious musings don't really compute, in the sense that atheists are somehow lacking something, or on the losing end of anything. That's clearly not the case.
It's safer to say that not one of us knows for a concrete, vetted, factual surety exactly what happens to us after we cease to exist as living, breathing humans on Earth.
We can hold a belief, or imagine anything we want... but we won't find out for certain until that time comes and it actually happens. Every one of us is in for a surprise... and that's the reality of life and the great unknown of death.
No offense taken, Kitcatclub... and if I do say so, you were very fortunate, indeed, that the Percocet completely masked your pain and took away the discomfort... which is actually an essential part of healing, allowing the body to truly rest during the process, thus hastening it.
Many people with high level chronic pain are only able to knock the edge off pain, even with the strongest of modern medicines, which at least helps allow for a better quality of life. But if I had to choose between quantity of life or quality of life... I'd choose quality in a heartbeat, and wouldn't even care how much that might shorten my time on Earth. Suffering continually with physical pain is very wearing on both the body and the mind.
Personally, I can imagine many different scenarios for an afterlife that I might like... but I'll just wait and be surprised... like everyone else.
Well, hell would be in the company of nasty people I have met here on earth!
I wonder if people that don't believe in God, or rather choose not to accept God...
It's ok for you to say that those that don't believe in god are just not willing to accept your truth. But if someone says that they think that people that believe in god are believing a fairy tale, that's not ok and you're insulted.
I'm on level 303
mrsk: I am very impressed! I haven't made it off level 3 yet!
"Personally, I can imagine many different scenarios for an afterlife that I might like... but I'll just wait and be surprised... like everyone else."
I'm pretty sure this is one party we're all invited to.
When you get older..you realize you blinked at birth and a few blinks later you are already here...........heading for the last blink of this life.
For some who have lived a life of hell at times......I am sure it seemed like forever.
For others.....it has been too fast.
I think its called Heaven because God has made it as our forever haven and I'm looking forward to a billon years of happy.
When I think of the concept of time as here on earth.....just a blink of the eye...........and I think of Heaven ...This song always comes to mind because of
the time frame referred to.
The first time I heard this song my first thought was ........
wonderful..........millions of years of happy!
You asked Tobr..........
LOOK FOR ME (FOR I WILL BE THERE TOO)
by Daybreak Quartet
When you finally make your entrance to that city,
Of jasper walls and bright golden avenues:
As you behold all of its beauty and its splendor,
Remember, there's just one request I make of you.
Look for me, for I will be there too,
I realize when you arrive there'll be so much to view;
After you've been there ten thousand years,
A million, maybe two, look for me for I will be there too.
As you go down your list of firsts, there's no question,
You'll want to see your precious loved ones waiting there for you;
Oh, when you've finally shared your story with the last one,
That wants to hear you tell just how you made it through;
Look for me, I'd like to hear it too,
I realize when you arrive there'll be so much to view;
After you've been there ten thousand years,
A million, maybe two, look for me for I will be there too.
Look for me for I will be there too.
I'll be strong like him and she'll be my sweetheart.
How people think -- it's just plain fun.
Anyway, the subject got me to thinking about the words 'perfect' and 'perfection'. Mylab's posting prompted me to wonder what those expectations of a 'perfect' god would be -- as a youngster compared to the now adult. To me, those words are relative to a person's exposure/experiences/learning/progression. What about beauty -- that is also relative to interpretation.
When I see a baby or young child what comes to my mind is the beauty of innocence, and also the idea that they're perfect. Some art or music could be considered something of beauty or perfection. A refreshing breeze on a simmering, hot day is experienced as perfect. The tangled, calloused hands from many years of hard work are beautiful.
Is there any such thing as perfect or perfection? Progress should fit into the subject. Somewhere in the Old Test. it mentions that God (my paraphrase) lamented/repented that he had created man. I remember reading that and thinking -- well, he had THAT right. I can see where I'm going with this and so I'll stop and hope I awake in the morning.
"If you get to heaven before I do just bore a hole and pull me through..."
tobr, what do I do if the manties won't fit?
Rainbow Bridge - with my soul mate dogs waiting for me. Otherwise, forget it. But as a lapsed Catholic I know I am going to "H" - the nuns made sure to drum that into us in the early 1950s.
I agree with so much already stated. But yours hits me the most vgkg: "Me thinks we'll be shocked at learning the level of our earthly life ignorance."
Why? I think we live our lives with a sort of shroud, blanket, covering. One that keeps us from knowing the true depth of misery and love and knowledge. I think we only have a taste of it all, including the phyiscal world with animals, plants, etc. Why would He create man in his image, but the earth be totally different than heaven? Aren't we taught to pray on heaven as it is on earth? And doesn't the bible say that the rocks can cry out? So I think all of this, the verdant hills, the autumn leaves, all the colors, objects, lives, it's all a lesser version of the true (for emphasis) reality. I cannot fathom what it is like, but I do think it is MORE.
And doesn't the bible say that the rocks can cry out? So I think all of this, the verdant hills, the autumn leaves, all the colors, objects, lives, it's all a lesser version of the true (for emphasis) reality. I cannot fathom what it is like, but I do think it is MORE.
rob........this is why I continue to drop in to HT.
I loved how you worded your thoughts and like you I also think it is MORE
More than what we can wrap our minds around.
Different thoughts and feelings on a subject but basically
for a believer.........the same vision.
I have enjoyed the insight.
For me, the concept of Heaven, or Nirvana, is impossible to get my mind around. The eternity and changeless thing, you know?
Therefor I figure if it exists, there must be no minds, at a minimum, and probably no individuals.
Well, the entire question of a heaven is predicated upon the idea that one believes the bible or other religious text to be non-fiction... and since there is no physical evidence of a deity existing, and no human being on Earth has died, gone on to experience whatever is next, and then has come back to life in original physical form to tell the rest of us what to expect... we are all in for a surprise, aren't we?
We can imagine, suppose, or believe any ideas we want... but the reality of the situation is that until we actually cease to live, we won't and can't know for certain what might happen.
I suppose that's one of the reasons religions and their accompanying texts exist, though... to help quell that fear of the unknown.
The way I look at it is... if we all have no choice but to die... and so far, that's the case... what is there to fear? We all have to do it... so, how bad could it be?
Posted by jodik 5 (My Page) on
Sat, Nov 23, 13 at 9:05
Well, the entire question of a heaven is predicated upon the idea that one believes the bible or other religious text to be non-fiction.
No, it's not.
I know people that believe in Heaven that do not believe much of anything in The Bible.
I would prefer to put the emphasis upon the here and now, upon this fragile planet earth and how we could make things better. I believe in doing good for its own sake, not for some future "reward" that may prove to be fictional.
I choose not to spend my time wondering about a mythological "heaven." I want to focus upon today and the next moment.
If I bend to wishful thinking, I could allow myself to be crushed by grief over my deceased husband and beloved dogs, longing to "see" them again. No one of us knows what will happen after death. Life is too short not to focus upon what is in front of me,and who is in my presence, here and now.
"Do not be daunted by the world's grief. Do justly now. Love mercy now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it."
Albert Camus is one of my favorite philosophers/writers:
"If there is a sin against Life, it consists perhaps not so much in despairing of Life as in hoping for another life, and in denying the implacable grandeur of this Life."
Nicely stated, Woodnymph.
I see no reason that one must preclude the other. I see the grandeur of this life as a prelude to an even more grand one.
Maybe that's the big difference between believing and not. Believers in an afterlife can appreciate the grandeur of the here and now, when they can see it, and look forward to even better. Non-believers say "this is it."
Not a criticism or rebuttal of Mr. Camus, who is after all a famous dead guy. Guess one can tell that absurdism holds no charms for me. ;-)
Considering another life does not preclude one from appreciating and enjoying this one.
In fact, it can enhance this one.
I dont understand the need for " more and better."
Of course if you poor and have dependent children you are unable to decently feed, clothe, finely educate, then an afterlife might be the only thing to look to for comfort.
I would add chronically ill without a decent, stable and reliable health coverage, thus threatening the existing roof over one's head, the same may apply but hopefully in no more than in a few short years, that will no longer be the huge issue it has been for decades.
Camus was an atheist which probably shaped his opinions of life and the afterlife.
It's not the more and better as in things. It's the possibility of seeing all the grandeur of nature, no fog, no smog, no aching feet. What He created here is wondrous to behold, and I wouldn't want to miss a moment of it. But I'll have no objection to seeing it in it's purest state, and mingling with wolves and bears and all manner of creatures.
I don't think that whatever exists after death has anything to do with Christian or Islamic or any other religious beliefs of heaven or God or virgins or whatever. Those were all made up by humans. Also, although I think there are reactions to our actions, I don't think there is reward system for "good" people, and punishment for "bad" people, but believe that in the spiritual world love and forgiveness prevail.
Whatever happens after people die, I am fine with it being a mystery. That said my idea of heaven is a beautiful Garden of Eden, overflowing with life and beauty and including all the enjoyment of the senses and more, and yet there is no need to actually feed a physical body.
This post was edited by terrene on Sun, Nov 24, 13 at 3:44
On my way out to dance last night, listening to the radio, I was reminded that there were something like 60 million people killed in WWII.
Compliments of your omnipotent God that you want to get so close to for an eternity.
I think I'll like to stay as far away as I can from such a creature.
Have fun in church.
You are predisposing that God doesn't want us to die hay. To be absent from the body is to be in the presence of the Lord. Death holds no fear. What some don't seem to understand is knowing there is a next life makes this life free from fear. Living life to it's fullest, and participating in all that it offers. Dancing like no one is watching so to speak.
" Dancing like no one is watching so to speak.'
I like to show off.
"What some don't seem to understand is knowing there is a next life makes this life free from fear."
Fear of God seems to be a common expression that I've heard plenty of times. Thinking I might be judged for any wrong that I might commit would make me more fearful. I'm pretty fearless as it is.
"To be absent from the body is to be in the presence of the Lord."
I'd rather hang out with my friends on Saturday night. Your God doesn't sound like a fun loving kind of guy to me.
Now, you need to put on a little last bit of makeup and head out to church.
Say a little prayer for me. Just in case.
Lot of people are speaking of survival of their characters egos, historical memories & connections. There is an understanding that the soul & the person are one & the same.
Some traditions see a process of Theosis or the soul (the true self) attains divine unity with all that is aka god.
The process is catharsis.
It harkens back to Hear o Israel the Lord God is One.
Can't be some THING other if god is ONE.
Western intellectualism vs eastern orthodoxy & a more mystical understanding.
It gets muddled after awhile are paradise & heaven the same, is there purgatory, limbo?
“I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know-God knows.”-2 Corinthians 12:2
What's this third heaven?
Or 7th Heaven? ( The Throne of God is supposed to be in the 7th heaven)
Even during the time of Aquinas it was believed the term that indicated heaven was one & the same as the sky firmament & there was argument as to if it was solid or fluid.
According to St. Thomas Aquinas, the firmament had a "solid nature" and stood above a "region of fire, wherein all vapor must be consumed." HUH?
Augustine thought is a solid.
" “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day."
Why all this? Because this is a literal place and had a lot of time and effort put into conceptualizing ing by the great (western) theological minds of their time.
Again for believers Everlasting and eternal are very different!
One is bound in time the other is outside of time!
Excellent post, Woodnymph.
We are mere humans who use only a fraction of our brain's capacity... the concepts of heaven, hell, or even a purgatory can be very different from person to person, but the basic idea of those terms are rooted in religious belief or other mythologies.
What's important to me is living in today, and doing so without regret for yesterday, and without worry or fear of tomorrow.
I don't require a reward tomorrow for something I do today, or did yesterday. If it turns out that this life is all there is, that's okay. If there's more, so be it. I have no expectations beyond right now.
Love your post labrea; thanks.
Terrene, I wish I'd said this:
"I don't think that whatever exists after death has anything to do with Christian or Islamic or any other religious beliefs of heaven or God or virgins or whatever. Those were all made up by humans. Also, although I think there are reactions to our actions, I don't think there is reward system for "good" people, and punishment for "bad" people, but believe that in the spiritual world love and forgiveness prevail."
Iris Dement - Let the Mystery Be Lyrics
Everybody's wonderin' what and where they all came from.
Everybody's worryin' 'bout where they're gonna go when the whole thing's done.
But no one knows for certain and so it's all the same to me.
I think I'll just let the mystery be.
Some say once you're gone you're gone forever, and some say you're gonna come back.
Some say you rest in the arms of the Saviour if in sinful ways you lack.
Some say that they're comin' back in a garden, bunch of carrots and little sweet peas.
I think I'll just let the mystery be.
Some say they're goin' to a place called Glory and I ain't saying it ain't a fact.
But I've heard that I'm on the road to purgatory and I don't like the sound of that.
Well, I believe in love and I live my life accordingly.
But I choose to let the mystery be.
Everybody's wonderin' what and where they all came from.
Everybody's worryin' 'bout where they're gonna go when the whole thing's done.
But no one knows for certain and so it's all the same to me.
I think I'll just let the mystery be.
I think I'll just let the mystery be.
Here is a link that might be useful: utube link
You'll never find an answer to these kinds of questions, so give it up.
Deal with what you know:
I can't wait til Saturday night. A little beer, a hardwood floor... you know the routine.
Heaven, right here on Earth.
Nope, Not giving it up here, the journey is too much fun, lots of dancing time left over fer sure. We may be on the verge of discovering that there is a Supreme Being and an Afterlife....just not exactly the way we dreamed ;)
Aside from joining my loved ones, I would be able to sing without everyone telling me to shut up.
John Denver thought West Virginia was pretty close.
"let the mystery be" and "not exactly the way we dreamed"
Yep! Works for me.
The question was, "What does heaven mean to you?. It means different things to different people. If one doesn't believe in heaven, it means nothing. Not even an excuse to knock religion.
•Posted by mrskjun 9 (My Page) on Sun, Nov 24, 13 at 18:52
"The question was, "What does heaven mean to you?. It means different things to different people. If one doesn't believe in heaven, it means nothing. Not even an excuse to knock religion."
Not exactly. The question was: "What would heaven be like for you?"
"Would" implies "if". "If" you are/might be/were a believer in the existence of heaven, what would it be like? For you? It's conditional; anyone can answer.
I'll enjoy it fully here and be even more dazzled, blown away even!, that a better version is coming later. I'll take both.
As stated, I plan to focus on planet earth, here and now.
Tonight is Argentine Tango and you want me to think about 'heaven"?
As I was heading over to get my heavenly fish for my lunch, I was thinking about what sort of person is religious, what sort of person spends a lifetime looking forward to heaven.
Not a happy camper, I think.
With few exceptions, Swanz being right at the top, most religious people don't seem to be happy-go-lucky people. The most religious, bible-toting person I ever knew was the sourest, most miserable woman on earth. Never a smile.
Not fun to be around. Certainly not for an eternity.
Religious, bible toting people aren't necessarily the ones that truly know God.
I do and I'm about as far from sour and miserable as you can get.
I manage to laugh multiple times a day, no matter what is going on.
Confidence in your faith and a personal relationship with God will not make you dour, sour, or mean.
"Confidence in your faith and a personal relationship with God will not make you dour, sour, or mean."
Broad sweeping and presumptuous!
a personal relationship with God
A very Protestant concept.
No, it's not Protestant for me.
My relationship with GOD was forged before I ever set foot in a church and has nothing to do with religion.
It is personal.
As to "broad sweeping and presumptious" perhaps but if you're sour, dour and mean you might try a personal relationship with God.
Well of course I get to the end of this to find someone preaching.
Heaven for me would have no greed-heads, no racists and no
There would be lots of plants and scenery.
•Posted by nancy_in_venice_ca SS24 z10 CA (My Page) on Tue, Nov 26, 13 at 22:17
***a personal relationship with God***
" very Protestant concept."
Is it? Huh. VERY Protestant, not just a teeny bit Protestant. Maybe the phrasing throws you off, Nancy. I daresay a lot of us consider our relationship with God personal on some level, I know I do, and I'm not anything-ant. I think you should know that Protestants have no monopoly on personal relationships with God. If you're interested.
"A personal relationship to God" is the hallmark of Evangielican Protestantism. I imagine in some areas of the U.S. that is the predominant concept of religion, and one would asorb it as one would breathe the air.
That's not a phrase heard very often, if at all, from a Catholic, Armenian Apostolic, or followers of one of the Orthodox religions.
The idea of being part of the mystical body of Christ would be a foreign concept to those preaching a personal relationship.
Edited to add: Within my lifetime, evangelicals have come to dominate the discussion and narrative of Christianity in the U.S. Even the mainline Protestants seem to have lost their voice in public discussion of religion.
It's not just the Christianity tends to overwhelm other religions in the U.S., but that within Christianity, one strain has so completely drowned out other voices.
I expect that the latest religious criticisms by of free market capitalism and the inequalities that result, will be quietly ignored for the most part.
This post was edited by nancy_in_venice_ca on Tue, Nov 26, 13 at 23:27
"The idea of being part of the mystical body of Christ would be a foreign concept to those preaching a personal relationship."
You mean you THINK "The idea of being part of the mystical body of Christ would be a foreign concept to those preaching a personal relationship."
As to "preaching;" I don't see anyone urging you to embrace their beliefs. Not here.
Buona notte, e sogni d'oro.
Charming. Like probably 99% of the other posters here, I don't speak/read/write Italian, but of it's anything like Spanish,
"Good night and dreams of gold." I take it the latter's an idiom. Good night to you, too.
The big mystery is that we exist at all.
To expect another existence after this one...it's a nice dream.
"The big mystery is that we exist at all.
To expect another existence after this one...it's a nice dream."
Especially in the concept of what this life has been like.
"Heaven for me would have no greed-heads, no racists and no ZEALOTS. There would be lots of plants and scenery."
I'll drink to that, Bboy! I might add "no ignorance" to the list, though, if you don't mind.
But seriously... I can't even imagine what sort, or if any, kind of consciousness might follow the death of the physical body of the here and now. So, I find it better to go forward without expectation.
but wood, can one not enjoy the here and now AND look forward to hopes for later?
Why are they mutually exclusive?
That mr Bin Laden had a very personal relationship with god as did all those asses that flew themselves into the Pentagon & the world Trade Center.
That there Bryan Fischer has such a Personal relationship with God that he delivers all the doom and gloom about his wonderful Lords plans to smash us into dust because of a treaty with Iran or Marriage equality.
Sour Dour & mean is often merely modified by personal relationships with some mental constructs that tell them to run for office!
Rob, since I have only so much physical, emotional and spiritual energy at this point in my life, I prefer to focus all my energy upon making my corner of this earth a better place. The concept of "heaven" is such an unknown. The "precious present" is really all we have.
For whatever it is worth, Jesus said, "The Kingdom of Heaven is within you."
rob, it should actually make this life even better. Jesus said, "Fear not for I am always with you". I take that as meaning, live life to it's very fullest, seek all the knowledge you can cram in your little pea brain. As they say..live, laugh, love and there is something even better when you have given this life all that you have. I love this life, it's wonderful. But, it's comforting to know that when I have used up this body and it's time to leave this world, I still have eternity.
woodnymph: "For whatever it is worth, Jesus said, "The Kingdom of Heaven is within you."
One of my favorites; sums up my belief in God. Covers everything. Others have said basically the same thing using different words.
>That mr Bin Laden had a very personal relationship with god as did all those asses that flew themselves into the Pentagon & the world Trade CenterHa ha ha!
Right on target - and so were they, unfortunately.
I think MrsK hits on it. Believing in later doesn't detract from the current for me. It enhances what I am already enjoying. Guess I got lucky!