Refuse Flu Shot...You're Fired

brightonbornNovember 26, 2012

How do you feel about the firing of 150 employees of TriHealth in Cincinnati being fired for refusing to get a flu shot?

Take that along with some talk about smokers possibly being required to get a license to buy cigaretts. I would say America is on its' way to becoming the land of the once free.

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Circus Peanut

Ugh. The one year I was talked into getting a flu shot, I was sick more often than any other year. Pure, paranoid, anecdotal-ness here. :-)

    Bookmark   November 26, 2012 at 8:51AM
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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Don't know about making it mandatory, but I volunteer for a flu shot every fall and at most have had a couple days of discomfort (aching arm where shot was given). And I rarely get sick in the winter--except the one year I forgot to get my shot--got really sick that winter. I urge everyone to get an annual flu shot.

License to buy cigarettes? As an ex-smoker, I oppose that idea. Somebody obviously thinks it is a good idea, but I don't know why. I think some people actually just want to punish smokers rather than honestly helping them to stop smoking. Which is fine--if they would just be honest about it and skip all the goody-goody justifications.

Kate

    Bookmark   November 26, 2012 at 9:18AM
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labrea_gw

Prescription for cigarettes sure why not if you need scrpits for the drugs to help you breath after years of smoking why not for a substance that is carcinogenic & addictive & cause the malady in the first place!

Corporatist US has many inroads into the private lives of their workers!

"In Indiana, Janice Bone was fired because she smoked cigarettes in her own home. At least 6,000 American companies now attempt to regulate off duty smoking and other private behavior."

    Bookmark   November 26, 2012 at 9:31AM
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thegreatcob

they got fired for a reason since it makes sense for health care workers to get flu shot. since they are common disease carriers in outbreaks

    Bookmark   November 26, 2012 at 9:33AM
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hamiltongardener(CAN 6a)

Are they front line health care workers? If so, I can sort of understand this.

Working in hospitals, you are around the elderly, the very young, and those whose immune systems are compromised. For you, getting the flu is a few miserable days in bed. For them, it might be a death sentence. You'd be spreading it to them before you even realize you have it.

    Bookmark   November 26, 2012 at 9:41AM
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Circus Peanut

About 12 years ago I wanted to quit smoking and asked my doc about it. Turns out that my insurance company (a variant of Blue Cross) would not cover a prescription for Zyban, a common cessation aid, but would cover the exact same medication marketed as Welbutrin, an antidepressant. So I officially went on "anti-depressants".

Amazes me to this day that they were willing to shell out for any heinous health side-effects of smoking but not for helping a person quit. I hope that's changed.

    Bookmark   November 26, 2012 at 9:56AM
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PRO
Brushworks Spectacular Finishes(5)

TriHealth is a hospital and health care community.

Don't you want to be assured that your healthcare professional isn't contagious?

After all, some folks here at HT worry about pizza delivery drivers not be immunized. Well...well....well....

    Bookmark   November 26, 2012 at 10:13AM
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jodik_gw

I've never gotten a flu shot, and I never will. It has nothing to do with paranoia from conspiracy theories, and everything to do with my already compromised immune system. I'd rather not take a chance.

License for cigarettes? That'll be the day. I bet corporate bigwigs are just salivating to add alcohol to that little plan on a train to nowhere. You license one gateway, you have to give equal time to both.

    Bookmark   November 26, 2012 at 10:16AM
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momj47(7A)

I get one every year, and it's now mandatory at the Medical Center I work for, and the Health Department I work in. One episode of the flu should convince you a flu shot is necessary.

Anyone in health care should be required to get a flu shot. I agree with HG, the flu could be a death sentence for these people. Employers can set conditions for employment, and this is a legitimate condition.

A few exceptions will be approved, mostly for allergies, and those people must wear a mask, at all times, while at work, during flu season. And if you don't get a flu shot and have not been approved for an exception, you won't be allowed in to the facilities during flu season. Which means you are fired.

    Bookmark   November 26, 2012 at 11:05AM
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ohiomom

America is on its' way to becoming the land of the once free.

....wrong, already happened. Don't believe me, start a protest about this and see how quickly the militarized police state will beat you down in the street.

Never had a flu shot.

    Bookmark   November 26, 2012 at 11:11AM
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lily316(z5PA)

If they are health care workers, then I don't have a problem because of transmission of the flu to patients. Personally I would never not get one . The sickest by far I ever was was when I had two bouts of the flu years ago. I was bedridden which never happened in my life since I had the measles at 7. Sick enough I wished I was dead.

I have never had a reaction to the shot. In fact in Sept, I not only had the shot I had a tetanus one the same day. Not as single reaction with either. I also have had the pneumonia and shingle shots.

    Bookmark   November 26, 2012 at 12:14PM
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david52 Zone 6

The medical profession tells me I can't take them, what with the historical relationship between egg-based vaccines and Guillan Barre Syndrome, they say just don't risk it.

I had the flu 2 winters ago. Knocked me flat for 6 weeks.

Which, all things considered, is better than knocked flat for years.

    Bookmark   November 26, 2012 at 12:28PM
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marquest(z5 PA)

I had a flu shot 40 years ago because it was a company requriment. I have never gotten one again, I was so sick I was afraid I was not going to die. I have not had a cold or flu since that incident I am not going to start taking shots now.

    Bookmark   November 26, 2012 at 12:36PM
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jillinnj

Healthcare workers should have to get one for the reasons everyone stated above.

I have never gotten one and won't until I am at the point where if I get the flu it's likely to kill me. Right now, I'll be unhappy but chances are I won't die. I've had the flu and it wasn't fun but I'm not willing to get shot. And, as Jodi said, it's not the conspiracy theories, I just don't like putting anything in my body that I don't have to. When I'm old and frail, I'll get the shot.

    Bookmark   November 26, 2012 at 12:36PM
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labrea_gw

Some years I get them some years I don't I haven't had the flu since 1988 there are some reports that the shots we get often don't match the strains that are prevalent & are useless.

    Bookmark   November 26, 2012 at 1:30PM
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dublinbay z6 (KS)

I had a flu shot 40 years ago .... I have not had a cold or flu since that incident ...

Gee, marquest, that's quite a testimony to the potency of the flu shot--good for 40 years!

LOL

Kate

    Bookmark   November 26, 2012 at 1:38PM
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steve2416

When I was working in manufacturing, I didn't have the time or inclination. Never sick, but there was a lot of free air moving around.
Advance time to working in the prison in my 50's. They offered Flu shots and the Hepatitis B series of shots free. 200+ inmates in dorms with the bunks crammed in as close as legally possible. Everything is common, from the bars we all touched, personal strip and locker searches, etc. All spaces including our bathrooms were cleaned by inmates with disinfectant approved by the State (IOW, you couldn't get high or poison your self with it - how many germs could it kill?). HIV was a given among a certain proportion of our clientele. By law we were not allowed to know who. Any inmate locked in Segregation had ample opportunity to toss a cup of urine/feces or spit at us 12 or more times a day. The others rubbed shoulders with us all day, a pair of handcuffs and a can of pepper-spray aren't much protection.
Common colds and flu would sweep that institution in waves.
I accepted any protection they would provide because I returned nightly to family/friends.

    Bookmark   November 26, 2012 at 1:49PM
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jerzeegirl(9)

So the workers will be reinstated if they get their shot by December 3. They are healthcare workers - of course, they should get a flu shot.

    Bookmark   November 26, 2012 at 1:57PM
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chase_gw

No question as far as I'm concerned. Front line health care workers should get the shot.

More for the safety of their patients than for them.

As far as licencing smokers, wonder where that one got started.......never gonna happen.

    Bookmark   November 26, 2012 at 2:04PM
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althea_gw

I'm opposed to mandatory vaccinations as a condition of employment. In regard to flu shots, it's been shown that they aren't really very effective, maybe 59%. A couple of weeks ago The New York Times had this news in their Well column:

Last month,, in a step tantamount to heresy in the public health world, scientists at the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota released a report saying that influenza vaccinations provide only modest protection for healthy young and middle-age adults, and little if any protection for those 65 and older, who are most likely to succumb to the illness or its complications. Moreover, the report�s authors concluded, federal vaccination recommendations, which have expanded in recent years, are based on inadequate evidence and poorly executed studies.

"We have overpromoted and overhyped this vaccine," said Michael T. Osterholm, director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy, as well as its Center of Excellence for Influenza Research and Surveillance. "It does not protect as promoted. It�s all a sales job: it�s all public relations."

The article goes on to say:

The Cochrane Collaboration, an international network of experts that evaluates medical research, concluded in a 2010 review that the vaccines decrease symptoms in healthy adults under 65 and save people about a half-day of work on average, but that they do not affect the number of people hospitalized and have minimal impact in seasons when vaccines and viruses are mismatched. (When the vaccine matches the circulating viruses, 33 adults need to be vaccinated to avoid one set of influenza symptoms; when there is only a partial match, 100 people must be vaccinated for the same effect.) It was also concluded that the vaccines appear to have no effect on hospital admissions, transmission or rates of complications. A separate Cochrane review on vaccines for the elderly determined the evidence was so scant and of such poor quality that it could not provide guidance. Dr. Bresee of the C.D.C. pointed to only one randomized controlled trial of influenza vaccine in older people, and it looked at people age 60 and over in the Netherlands healthy enough to not be hospitalized or in a nursing home.

Another Cochrane review found no evidence that vaccinating health care workers who work with the elderly has any effect on influenza or pneumonia deaths.

By all means, get a flu shot if you want one, but people should know about the shortcomings, and actual evidence of their effectiveness.

Here is a link that might be useful: nytimes

    Bookmark   November 26, 2012 at 2:17PM
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Elly_NJ(NJ z6)

I can't find this on a real news site. Link?

    Bookmark   November 26, 2012 at 4:22PM
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jodik_gw

Since flu bugs mutate so often, I don't see a reason to keep pumping more of the unknown into large populations. I think a better way to attack the issue is to take better care of our immune systems... if not already compromised.

It's not necessary to sterilize the world with anti-bacterial everything... that's what prevents our systems from creating their own antibodies.

    Bookmark   November 26, 2012 at 5:03PM
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vgkg(Z-7)

The last and only flu shot that I've ever had was back when Gerard Ford was prez in late 1975, the Swine Flu scare of that era was the hot bugaboo. I recall the news blitz pushing images of the 1918 pandemic where people dropped like flies. My shot was at a local grocery store and was given to people waiting in the check out line via a military assembly line style injection. It hurt like hell and the flu scare fizzled out. Never got another one after that.

    Bookmark   November 26, 2012 at 5:22PM
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jodik_gw

Never got that one... never got any. Only the usual ones necessary for school entrance at that time... polio, diphtheria, etc...

    Bookmark   November 26, 2012 at 5:54PM
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ohiomom

We received some type of vaccination in school in the 50's, have no idea what it was but since I would not let anyone near me with a needle mom had to take me to the doctor.

I remember the "chase the patient" scene and my blood curling screams and mom saying "your scaring all the children in the waiting room". Yeah like I cared :) Anyway the "shot" did not take and they ended up doing it again and left a scar that still shows to this day.

Then we stood in line at a local school for our "sugar cube" polio vaccine.

I never had any childhood illnesses (measles, mumps, chickenpox) but all my siblings did, shrug.

    Bookmark   November 26, 2012 at 6:29PM
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momj47(7A)

Here's the link for CIDRAP.

Herd immunity is just as important as getting vaccinated, even the unvaccinated are protected from the flu, and in a hospital, that's really important, since so many patients can't or don't get the flu vaccine. So while it may not be 100% effective, it still protects from the flu, and it's the best we've got right now. And being part of the group that seems to have been protected from the flu for many years now, all I can say is Thank You for the flu vaccine.

    Bookmark   November 26, 2012 at 6:39PM
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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Anyway the "shot" did not take and they ended up doing it again and left a scar that still shows to this day.

Smallpox vaccination? I still have the scar.

    Bookmark   November 26, 2012 at 6:45PM
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ohiomom

I really don't know Nancy, probably. I do know that the doctor made my mom bring me back in because I "guess" it did not take/react the way it was supposed to?? So long ago I just remember the fuss I kicked up :)

    Bookmark   November 26, 2012 at 7:04PM
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momj47(7A)

Everyone born before 1971 should have gotten a smallpox vaccination and we all have a scar. You might have gotten two different vaccines, with smallpox being done at the second visit. It's not a nice vaccination.

The military still gives it, as protection against bio-warfare.

It's not a shot, but a series of pricks to the skin.

    Bookmark   November 26, 2012 at 7:35PM
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elvis

Smallpox vaccine always left a scar; a small one in my case.

    Bookmark   November 26, 2012 at 7:45PM
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elvis

Ohio, this excerpt from Wiki describes the smallpox vaccine. You probably didn't react as expected, so they repeated. If you google smallpox and look at a few pics, you'll probably not mind the scar.

"The current formulation of smallpox vaccine is a live virus preparation of infectious vaccinia virus. The vaccine is given using a bifurcated (two-pronged) needle that is dipped into the vaccine solution. The needle is used to prick the skin (usually the upper arm) a number of times in a few seconds. If successful, a red and itchy bump develops at the vaccine site in three or four days. In the first week, the bump becomes a large blister (called a "Jennerian vesicle") which fills with pus, and begins to drain. During the second week, the blister begins to dry up and a scab forms. The scab falls off in the third week, leaving a small scar.[35]"

    Bookmark   November 26, 2012 at 8:01PM
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jodik_gw

Last shot I recall having was Tetanus... and that was well over 15 years ago.

I take that back... last shot I had was Tequila... about 3 years ago...

    Bookmark   November 26, 2012 at 8:14PM
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Circus Peanut

Watershed moment in my relationship with Mr. Peanut, who is a decade younger than I: when we realized he didn't know what my smallpox vaccination scar was. Eek!

    Bookmark   November 26, 2012 at 8:16PM
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patriciae_gw(07)

While the flu shot may seem unnatural and perhaps unnecessary, death sets the gold standard for both natural and inevitable.

    Bookmark   November 26, 2012 at 8:22PM
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ohiomom

I have a strange immune (?) system, I also do not have a normal reaction to the TB test.

No I had the same vaccine "twice", that much I remember, it was probably because I did not react in a normal way to that either.

I have been blessed by rarely being ill, but have broken just about every bone in my body except my ribs (knock on wood) :)

    Bookmark   November 26, 2012 at 8:44PM
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jodik_gw

Death IS natural and inevitable. Who wants to live forever, anyway? Not I.

I guess I would have to take a pass on a job that forced me into medical procedures I was not comfortable with.

Broken, fractured, cracked ribs are incredibly painful, Ohiomom... I'll knock on wood for you!

    Bookmark   November 27, 2012 at 10:19AM
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chase_gw

"Death IS natural and inevitable. Who wants to live forever, anyway? Not I. "

One thing to make that choice for yourself...another to make it for someone else.

Health care workers , especially those working with the very young, the elderly or those with immune deficiencies risk the lives of their patients if they don't get the shot.

    Bookmark   November 27, 2012 at 10:23AM
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haydayhayday

"Death IS natural and inevitable. Who wants to live forever, anyway? Not I. "

Me! Me! Me!

Retire at 65 and let Obama take care of me for the rest of my life!!!

Issac Asimov once calculated that, if we didn't die of "natural causes", then our life expectancy, because of accidents and the like, would be on the order of about 450 years.

I've been seeing a lot of recent headlines about "new ways to make a vaccine", "new approach to making vaccines", that sort of thing. I hate being a guinea pig. So, although I have always lined up to get a Flu shot, I will certainly reconsider if and when they suddenly introduce a newfangled way. It'll be a tough call for me.

Hay

    Bookmark   November 27, 2012 at 1:04PM
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rob333

It's easy. Say you're allergic. I don't know if I am, but I'm not willing to find out since my mom and I are both allergic to the same thing, often, and she ended up in the ER. I too work in the health industry. Never had the flu, hope I never get it, but getting the shot and ending up in the ER would certainly bring on something that seems avoidable.

    Bookmark   November 27, 2012 at 1:09PM
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momj47(7A)

Good article from BBC.

The Medical Center I work for just sent out their "final warning". If you don't get your flu shot by Saturday, you will be on a one week suspension. If you don't get a flu shot during that week, you will have resigned.

They said only 70% of Medical School faculty and staff have gotten the flu shot, while 87% of Health System employees have gotten their flu shot.

Here is a link that might be useful: Do flu vaccines give you the flu?

    Bookmark   November 27, 2012 at 1:12PM
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fouquieria(10b)

Get your flu shots.

-Ron-

This post was edited by fouquieria on Fri, Nov 30, 12 at 1:34

    Bookmark   November 27, 2012 at 1:45PM
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Embothrium(USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA)

Small pricks for small pox.

    Bookmark   November 27, 2012 at 2:12PM
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momj47(7A)

Why would we sue? I like not getting the flu.

I think the person most likely to sue would be the patient who got the flu from an unvaccinated staff member.

People are always saying they would stay home if they got sick, but they never do. We've sent sick staff home, only to have them come back the next day, even sicker, and we send them home again, and again. People don't want to use sick leave, and if you get the flu, you'll be out for at least two weeks, and maybe many more.

Even giving a cold to someone with a compromised immune system can be catastrophic, but people come to work anyway, and I work in a clinic that cares for people with HIV/AIDS.

    Bookmark   November 27, 2012 at 2:28PM
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terriks

People are always saying they would stay home if they got sick, but they never do.

Plus, you are usually contagious before you develop symptoms.

People spend millions of dollars on so called "immune boosting" supplements, yet are skeptical of the flu vaccine, which really does boost your immune system, by causing antibodies to develop in the body against the flu. I think that they need to change the name of the shot from a vaccination to an immune booster.

Here is a link that might be useful: CDC flu information

    Bookmark   November 27, 2012 at 3:04PM
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terriks

Once the vaccine is inside you, it stimulates your immune system into thinking it's been infected by the flu recently. Therefore, your immune system produces antibodies against the virus. These antibodies bind to the virus and target it for destruction. Then, when you actually do come in contact with the real live virus, your body is armed and ready to fight off the illness before it even starts. However, keep in mind that the flu vaccination only contains three strains of the virus, when there are many more lurking in the real world. If you get infected by a different flu strain, most likely you will still experience symptoms and become ill. Also, the vaccination is not 100% effective, and it has been noted to be less effective in the elderly and young children

Here is a link that might be useful: How does a flu shot work?

    Bookmark   November 27, 2012 at 3:06PM
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jodik_gw

Now we're gonna sue someone who we think gave us the flu?

What a country...

    Bookmark   November 27, 2012 at 3:30PM
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rob333

I thought Ron was telling me to sue, after I ended up in the ER from my shot. HA!

    Bookmark   November 27, 2012 at 3:38PM
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hamiltongardener(CAN 6a)

Outside of the issue of lawsuits, I would think that as health care providers, nurses and doctors would take all steps that they could to prevent causing illness or death to the people they care for... not because they could be sued, but because it's the right thing to do. Not just as a doctor, but as a human being.

If I had the flu just as a member of the public, I would not go and hang around a hospital where there are vulnerable people. If I had a job where it was necessary to be around them, I would take any steps, including vaccinations, to minimize being the cause of their harm.

    Bookmark   November 27, 2012 at 3:40PM
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jerzeegirl(9)

I would be very dismayed indeed if I were sick and my health care worker did not believe in one of the most basic practices in medicine - immunization. You kind of hope that the person treating you if you are sick actually believes in science.

    Bookmark   November 27, 2012 at 6:48PM
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lavenderlver

Agree with the sentiments above. Sad that it doesn't go without saying.

    Bookmark   November 27, 2012 at 7:21PM
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terriks

You kind of hope that the person treating you if you are sick actually believes in science.

Ditto

    Bookmark   November 27, 2012 at 8:44PM
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elvis

I get the flu shot; but I don't think it should be required. If you are sick you shouldn't be at work or out and about at all. If taking too much time off because of being sick causes job loss, well...too bad.

It should be the choice of the individual, IMO, as long as they don't come to work sick.

    Bookmark   November 27, 2012 at 9:07PM
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momj47(7A)

But "they" do come to work sick, and everyone knows that, and everyone does it. And since you can spread the flu before you have symptoms yourself, it's a specious argument.

If you want to work at certain medical centers, you have to get a flu shot every year. That's the condition set for employment.

Most places now require drug testing and criminal background checks, which I find much more intrusive than a flu shot.

    Bookmark   November 27, 2012 at 9:12PM
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tishtoshnm Zone 6/NM

It is the choice of the individual. If they choose not to get the shot, they have a choice to also seek employment somewhere that does not require a flu shot.

    Bookmark   November 27, 2012 at 9:34PM
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eibren(z6PA)

"I've never gotten a flu shot, and I never will. It has nothing to do with paranoia from conspiracy theories, and everything to do with my already compromised immune system. I'd rather not take a chance."

It's my impression that immunizations are safe for the immune-compromised as long as they are made with a killed virus. The live virus ones are the ones to avoid. Additionally, the immune compromised, notably those with HIV, are often advised to obtain killed virus vaccinations to boost what immunity they still have.

I don't have a lot of sympathy for those who circulate freely in society that nevertheless do not contribute to herd immunity, which is the only thing that makes immunizations effective. Most vaccines vary in effectiveness among different individuals, and it is only if all are immunized that there is much protection for most. Those who lead a totally isolated existence are a different issue--if they are not around others, they will neither catch nor transmit infections irregardless. How many are really able to live in total isolation?

Vaccines made with live viruses are a separate issue, as they are more risky for some, but despite that, few would have wanted to be around those not immunized against polio during polio epidemics experienced in the last century.

Despite having a flu shot this year, for a couple of weeks I experienced body aches and debility a month or so after the shot. I suspect if I had not had the immunization, I would have experienced a severe case of the flu this fall. I'm glad I obtained the shot.

Additionally, despite being in several environments over the past several months where numerous people were coughing, I have as yet not come down with anything else.

I also use the Zicam formulations that are still on the market whenever I experience early cold symptoms.

I used to be sick all the time when cigarette smokers were able to pollute any public environment, amd I tend to resent the non-immunized as much as I used to resent the cigarette smokers (I had to have two nasal polyp operations specifically because of others' selfish smoking behaviors. My exact opinions of such selfish behaviors are not printable in this forum--I would be banned).

IMO, the selfish parents who refuse to immunize their children against whooping cough etc., that cause severe outbreaks of disease should be liable for damages. In the case of measles, this could lead to paying for a lifetime of misery for an unborn child that is born with birth defects.

IMO the unvaccinated today are the cultural equivalent of the uncovered sewers and throwing of "night soil" from windows experienced by society in the Dark Ages.

    Bookmark   November 27, 2012 at 9:41PM
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elvis

I'm all for the classic childhood vaccinations. But this thread is about the "flu" shot. Like Tish said, one can choose employment elsewhere; same as if you don't want the drug screen, which IS required where I work as a condition of being hired.

JMO.

    Bookmark   November 27, 2012 at 9:56PM
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fouquieria(10b)

Most places now require drug testing and criminal background checks, which I find much more intrusive than a flu shot.

It's absolutely no different and I find them both disgusting. Obviously most lost the intent of my comment. Thank you George Orwell.

-Ron-

    Bookmark   November 27, 2012 at 10:17PM
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rob333

No, everybody doesn't do it. I don't go to work sick. Of course, I don't get sick very often, once every other year or so. We have sent home employees who come to work sick, but it's usually the entire group saying, we don't want our kids to get what you have, so go home! It's not mandated from above. It's stopped happening.

I find it all intrusive. Why should drug screening or background checks be run? How about credit checks? Since when has it become "common practice" to have these things done? It's getting ridiculous how much information is out there now. Information that is no one's business. These are things that shouldn't be addressed until there is a problem. It's like stopping everyone on the street all the time everywhere they go, to ensure they're not up to criminal behavior. How can it be seen any other way? I thought we lived in a more private society than this is becoming. I've only worked 27 years, but this has all been becoming more and more invasive for the past ten years. It's off the chart ridiculous! Not only is not my employer's business, it's not the public's business. Why are they trying to stop something before it happens? I mean, really, I understand anyone working with children being checked for drugs and or a criminal background. But when one works in, let's say, a real estate office, why is it necesary?

    Bookmark   November 28, 2012 at 10:56AM
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jodik_gw

It appears as though a certain contingent is more worried about a citizen's private life and what it contains...

It contains a whole lot of not your business, is what it contains... no wonder more and more people are becoming expats or living off the grid... what I do within the confines of my private life, my bedroom, and on my own personal time is my business. End of story.

I choose not to share my bodily fluids to get a factory job, and my credit rating has not a thing to do with job performance. When I'm sick, I remain home... it's the courteous, and wise, thing to do.

Some jobs should require background checks and whatnot... but I think intrusion into personal life, in general, has gotten to be a little much.

    Bookmark   November 28, 2012 at 11:33AM
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Circus Peanut

I mean, really, I understand anyone working with children being checked for drugs and or a criminal background.

And even that I find spurious to a large extent. Say I shoplifted once as a teenager, does that mean I'm a worse teacher? A few of the most gifted childcare workers I know have a troubled history with the law, and its taught them a lot that they are able to pass on in the form of maturity and life wisdom. I also don't really care if my health worker smokes pot on the weekends as long as they are not doing it at work. Lord knows I've had enough healthcare workers that are dangerously obese -- it's a case of 'do as I say, not as I do', and in this context I'm actually OK with that. Nobody's a saint.

Both of my grandmothers were schoolteachers in the 1920's, and both left their job when they married. It was felt unseemly for a married woman to teach, the presumption being that they would now be serving their own man's and children's needs -- and there was definitely an undertone of 'moral' concern about having someone now possessing carnal knowledge teaching tender young minds. Times change.

I got sick much more often every winter when I was teaching. Kids are hot little breeding grounds for everything from sniffles to ebola. The healthcare worker argument strikes me as valid, but in terms of teaching, a flu shot (presuming it's at all effective) would seem to protect the teacher more than the children. ;-)

    Bookmark   November 28, 2012 at 11:44AM
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rob333

Yea, I agree with spurious, just saying I "sort of" understand that one.

    Bookmark   November 28, 2012 at 12:01PM
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elvis

A criminal record might not necessarily nix the job. In a child care/teaching situation, I would think what is being looked at is prior criminal behavior which might endanger children. Like sexual assault or other violent behavior.

    Bookmark   November 28, 2012 at 8:06PM
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frank_il

"No, everybody doesn't do it. I don't go to work sick."

I know many people that would see someone as a bit "lazy" or "soft" if they did not go to work sick. They would question that person's work ethic. I know that I have went to work sick. I am not saying that it is right, but I am saying that I am guilty of it. I believe that it is part of the older generation's work ethic that has been passed down.

    Bookmark   November 28, 2012 at 8:18PM
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elvis

It's not necessarily the flu, is it, Frank? A lot of people do go to work sick--especially when they don't get paid sick days, and many don't get those. If they can do the job, and they're not contagious (like allergies or pain), I don't have a problem with that, except if it involves consumables and they're having allergy attacks of coughing/sneezing. Blech.

    Bookmark   November 28, 2012 at 8:48PM
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frank_il

My Dad has only taken 2 sick days in the 35 or so years that I can remember. That is just the way he is. He (Mom as well) has also passed some of that work ethic to me. Not once have I said that this is the right thing to do, but it is the reality. To bring it all back to the beginning, as a teacher (since I don't use sick days) it is essential, in my opinion, to get the immunization.

    Bookmark   November 28, 2012 at 9:03PM
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elvis

"... it is essential, in my opinion, to get the immunization."

So you can go to work. Makes sense to me. Same reason I do it. If I get the flu with or without the vaccine, then I stay home. Knock on wood, I haven't gotten the flu since 1988, and back then I didn't get flu shots (mostly because I did get the Swine Flu shot in 1976, and got very, very sick).

    Bookmark   November 28, 2012 at 9:28PM
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demifloyd(8)

I don't believe in people being forced to do much of anything, certainly medical procedures, but surely this is part of a contract for hospital and medical personnel, I would think, where they agree to be subject to required flu shots and other preventative measures?

Posted by frank_il z5Illinois (My Page) on
Wed, Nov 28, 12 at 20:18

"No, everybody doesn't do it. I don't go to work sick."

I know many people that would see someone as a bit "lazy" or "soft" if they did not go to work sick. They would question that person's work ethic. I know that I have went to work sick. I am not saying that it is right, but I am saying that I am guilty of it. I believe that it is part of the older generation's work ethic that has been passed down.

*

Yes, I know people with that work ethic.

Other than being hospitalized for minor surgery, my husband only missed two days of work due to illness in a twenty-eight year career.

Of course he went to work sick.

We're the buck up family.

I'm considering the flu shot this year--three years ago I had the flu, bronchitis, and was close to pneumonia after thinking I could shake off what I thought was a little upper respiratory problem. I'd never been that sick before.

Now I've had three rounds of bronchitis since then and my lungs hurt and I cough a lot. It's difficult to recover and I wish I hadn't been stubborn and refused to go to the doctor until after a month had passed of being so tired and sick I could barely take care of business.

But I do know my grandmother got very, very ill after taking the flu shot and would never take it again.

When is the latest you should take the flu shot?

    Bookmark   November 28, 2012 at 11:44PM
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marquest(z5 PA)

Gee, marquest, that's quite a testimony to the potency of the flu shot--good for 40 years!
LOL

Kate, I was so sick my daughter called my mother and I did not remember her taking care of me for 24 hours. I swore the company tried to kill me. They said I probably had the flu when they gave me the shot. I was not sick before they gave me the shot.

I drink herb tea, take vitamin B and C. I have not had any shots since and I have not had a cold or flu since that incident 40 years ago. It probably scared my body so much it is afraid of the flu. LOL

    Bookmark   November 29, 2012 at 1:50AM
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jerzeegirl(9)

I don't understand how anyone can work with flu. I have had flu and I was flat on my back and practically delirious with fever for three days. There is no way I could have driven to work, much less done anything when I was there. Having a cold on the other hand is quite different. You don't feel great but at least you can still function.

    Bookmark   November 29, 2012 at 7:27AM
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ohiomom

Frank when my father retired from the police force he had 3 years of sick time accumulated.

    Bookmark   November 29, 2012 at 7:35AM
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dublinbay z6 (KS)

I don't think it is too late to get the flu shot, but I'd do it right away--before the Jan-Feb flu season. One year I forgot to get the shot--went rushing in about this time and they said there was still time for it to help.

For those of you who haven't had the flu in years, neither did I--and I always went to work when I was sick. But in my 50s, flu symptoms starting appearing nearly every winter and I'd be sick for 2-3 weeks! A couple times the symptoms were bad enough that they kinda scared me. It was during that time period when I started getting the annual flu shot, and I haven't had the flu since (though I'm fighting a bad cold/upper-respiratory thing right now--but hey, 3-4 days isn't bad.)

Kate

    Bookmark   November 29, 2012 at 8:01AM
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demifloyd(8)

I don't believe in people being forced to do much of anything, certainly medical procedures, but surely this is part of a contract for hospital and medical personnel, I would think, where they agree to be subject to required flu shots and other preventative measures?

Posted by frank_il z5Illinois (My Page) on
Wed, Nov 28, 12 at 20:18

"No, everybody doesn't do it. I don't go to work sick."

I know many people that would see someone as a bit "lazy" or "soft" if they did not go to work sick. They would question that person's work ethic. I know that I have went to work sick. I am not saying that it is right, but I am saying that I am guilty of it. I believe that it is part of the older generation's work ethic that has been passed down.

*

Yes, I know people with that work ethic.

Other than being hospitalized for minor surgery, my husband only missed two days of work due to illness in a twenty-eight year career.

Of course he went to work sick.

We're the buck up family.

I'm considering the flu shot this year--three years ago I had the flu, bronchitis, and was close to pneumonia after thinking I could shake off what I thought was a little upper respiratory problem. I'd never been that sick before.

Now I've had three rounds of bronchitis since then and my lungs hurt and I cough a lot. It's difficult to recover and I wish I hadn't been stubborn and refused to go to the doctor until after a month had passed of being so tired and sick I could barely take care of business.

But I do know my grandmother got very, very ill after taking the flu shot and would never take it again.

When is the latest you should take the flu shot?

    Bookmark   November 29, 2012 at 9:10AM
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demifloyd(8)

Weird. Why did my post appear again this morning when I'm just now signing onto this thread?

Thanks, Kate. Next time I go to town I'll get a flu shot I guess.

    Bookmark   November 29, 2012 at 9:19AM
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rob333

That's sort of my delination, like jerzee. If I have a fever and can't function, I stay home.

I if I have sniffles and/or congestion, I go to work. I don't touch anything without my sleeve touching it instead and stay put. At the end of the day, I wipe it all down and at the beginning of the next day, wipe it all down. I also don't shake hands or join in at lunch. I stay put. But I go. If I have a fever of any sort, I know to stay at home even if I feel ok after taking fever reducer and feeling "reasonable". I won't go in with a fever regardless. I just don't get those stomach bugs except every other year for 24 hours. If I did feel like my mom does when she gets her twice a year pneumonia, I wouldn't go in. There are limits. I had 6 years of "perfect attendance" (their name for it) through junior high and high school. Would've been longer, but we went on a trip in 5th grade and mom took us out of school for a week. I could afford to miss a few days.

I don't have to go to work, but I do unless I am so dizzy I shouldn't drive (twice in the past year. Fixed now that we know what causes it and I just do the very light steroid thing when I feel it coming on) or feverish. If I got that seasonal flu thing described above, I think I'd start risking the ER. Until then, I won't.

    Bookmark   November 29, 2012 at 9:37AM
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haydayhayday

I always get the flu shot.

I think I've had the flu once in my life. I'm in the group that can't believe anyone could do anything other than lie in bed if they get a real case of the flu. Go to work? I don't think you had the flu.

I'm always amazed, too, how few times I get colds and the like from my dancing. On Friday and Saturday nights, I'm in the middle of a crowd of maybe 500 or more people who are shoulder to shoulder on a dance floor. I don't get many colds.

And, when I go contra dancing, the nature of the dance is that, all night long, you're constantly going from one person's hands to the next person's hands. I am SUPER careful about washing my hands and not touching my hands to my face at contra dances.

Still, when I go to the BIG Contra dance festivals, where 1000's of people from all parts of the country will gather, I will inevitably come back with a new version of the cold.

I'm also a believer in, "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger", so I don't mind exposing myself to all these germs out there. I'll be stronger going into my old age.

Hay

    Bookmark   November 29, 2012 at 10:53AM
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marquest(z5 PA)

jerzeegirl 9
I don't understand how anyone can work with flu.

You are right. If they went to work they did not have the flu. If they did manage to get there the company would send them home because you would do something that would make them send you home.

    Bookmark   November 29, 2012 at 11:18AM
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jodik_gw

Since I changed my eating habits and detoxified myself of "foods" that aren't food, I haven't been seriously flu sick... I can't recall the last time I had all the major symptoms indicating flu. And I already have a compromised immune system. Of course, I don't deal with the general public on any sort of daily basis, so that may help.

I've never bought into the idea of sterilizing everything, and don't buy anti-bacterial products to wipe down the world with.

When we were kids, my Dad used to say, "a little dirt never hurt anybody."

    Bookmark   November 29, 2012 at 11:32AM
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jillinnj

It's my understanding that once you've had a particular cold, you're usually immune to the same strain. That explains why as we get older we get less colds (we've already had the ones we're exposed to again). I used to get one really bad cold per year. Now if I get a cold it's not nearly so bad. It also explains, hay, why when you go to those dances with people from other parts of the country you get sick but not when you go to local ones. You're exposed to strains you haven't been exposed to before.

The one time I had the flu there was no way I could have gone to work. I was pretty much useless for almost 2 weeks. Good news was I just happened to have taken those 2 weeks off work (end of year and was using up vacation days). Bad news was I was sick my entire vacation.

I have the advantage of being able to work from home. When I'm not feeling well and don't want to subject myself to the long commute and subject others to whatever I have, I just work from home. I still get my work done and nobody has to be around my sneezing, coughing, etc.

    Bookmark   November 29, 2012 at 12:28PM
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FingNugSnug

Why is it that so many health care professionals refuse the flu shot? Is it possible that maybe, due to the nature of their training and background, they do not feel comfortable injecting themselves with foreign substances that have been proven to be detrimental to the human body? I'm not talking about just the immune system-boosting component of the vaccine. The flu shot is loaded with additives that are toxic. This is fact. Medical professionals are educated and trained based on scientific facts. They are also the ones who take care of people who have been damaged by these "safe" vaccines. No one knows what kind of long term effects these shots will have on us. The incidence of autoimmune diseases has risen over the years. Is it due to the increase in available and/or mandatory vaccines? We don't know. I believe that vaccines have their place. Certain people can definitely benefit from being vaccinated against certain diseases. However, to mandate vaccination of employees is irresponsible. At best, with a good virus match, the flu shot is about 50% effective, depending on which study you read. That decreases with the age of the vacinee. You can still get the flu from someone who has been vaccinated if they are sick with a virus that was not in the flu shot that year. The pharmaceutical companies producing the vaccine, as well as the mandating state and/or institution, are not able to be held legally responsible for any injuries incurred as a result of their product. So, you can be required to take a flu shot that has limited effectiveness, unknown longterm consequences, contains known toxins, comes with no guarantee, and you have no legal recourse if you suffer severe debilitating effects. What year is this? What country do we live in? Yes, I am an RN. I love my job. I put my patients first every single day. I stay home when I'm sick. I wash my hands so much it hurts. BUT...I have one body, and I am lucky enough to be healthy. I know from first hand experience that once your health is gone, you have nothing. I am a reasonable person, but I want scientific facts that these flu shots are safe for me. I need to know that the benefits of the flu shot outweigh the risks. I do not take comfort in the fact that even if I assume the risk and take the shot, my patients can still get the flu from me. I have refused the flu shot, and will wear a mask per my employer's regulations. This will be very difficult for me. I sincerely hope that we have a mild flu season. Last time I checked, we live in a free country. Please respect my right to refuse the flu shot, just as I will respect your right to choose to vaccinate yourself and your children.

    Bookmark   November 5, 2013 at 12:32AM
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Pidge

I've been getting a flu shot every year since 1996. I once had a sore arm from getting it, no other repercussions of any kind--except I also never got the flu.

Equating being required to get a flu shot to some kind of big loss of freedom seems kind of silly to me. But one must do what one feels is the right thing.

    Bookmark   November 5, 2013 at 6:42AM
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momj47(7A)

You can refuse to get a flu shot, but, if you work for my employer, you'll have to resign. You will not have the option of wearing a mask.

Flu shots save lives, it's as simple as that.

    Bookmark   November 5, 2013 at 7:52AM
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jodik_gw

I will continue to pass on the flu shots... thanks, but no thanks.

    Bookmark   November 5, 2013 at 7:56AM
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Pidge

Jodi, no one is forcing you to get a flu shot, including me. But I believe just as strongly in the need for them as you reject them. I work in an environment where I am in contact with lots of people, many of them young, several days a week. I take care of myself by getting the shot and I take care of them at the same time.

    Bookmark   November 5, 2013 at 8:06AM
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david52 Zone 6

IMHO, The dramatic increase in auto-immune diseases, allergies, asthma, etc. is far more likely caused by the enormous, constantly growing chemical and toxin load we are exposed to.

(Which is why we need to abolish the EPA and squash all those CDC studies that clearly link breathing polluted air with diseases. Like, DUH)

With, of course, the notable exception of the famous flu vaccines in the 70's that were statistically linked to Gullan Barre autoimmune disease, but that had to do with contaminated eggs used in the vaccine process, something they've cleared up.

    Bookmark   November 5, 2013 at 10:46AM
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lily316(z5PA)

As I said above in this old thread, I never miss getting a flu shot. Got mine a few weeks ago. I didn't even have a sore arm. Never ever got the flu when I got the shot.

It definitely should be required for health care workers who are around sick people.

    Bookmark   November 5, 2013 at 12:04PM
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Pidge

And for teachers, grandparents, etc., who are with the young on a regular basis.

    Bookmark   November 5, 2013 at 12:26PM
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dublinbay z6 (KS)

I second everything Lily just said.

Kate

    Bookmark   November 5, 2013 at 12:36PM
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Circus Peanut

Curious about the civil liberties aspect of this debate, I was googling around and found this nice little article summarizing most of the issues at stake from a law perspective:

excerpt:
I. Health Care Workers are Critical to Protecting Public Health

"Upon the principle of self-defense, of paramount necessity, a community has the right to protect itself against an epidemic of disease which threatens the safety of its members8."

HCW are limited in number; their health is a priority. HCW "have a responsibility to protect their own health and well-being, grounded in their professional commitment to ensure adequate availability of care9." Influenza can disrupt continuity of care and vaccinating health care personnel reduces influenza infections, resulting in fewer working days lost10. Furthermore, HCW provide care for vulnerable populations11. Pro vaccination advocates argue that HCW have a duty "not to harm a patient when [they] [know] there is a significant risk of harm through infection" and the vaccination's benefit outweighs its burden and risk12. HCW need to be vaccinated to protect public health, and research has indicated they will not do so voluntarily in larger enough numbers13. For example, surveys conducted in early 2009 indicated that voluntary pre-pandemic vaccination levels among HCW in Hong Kong were below 50%14. Therefore, mandatory vaccination of HCW may be warranted to prevent a pandemic.

II. Civil Liberty Issues of Mandatory Vaccinations

Mandatory vaccinations create concerns over individual autonomy over one's body. As long ago as 1905, arguments made in Jacobson v. Massachusetts15 summarize the most basic reasoning behind such concerns: "[mandatory vaccination is] hostile to the inherent right of every freeman to care for his own body and health in such a way as to him seems best . . . .16" However, there is not an absolute right for an individual to be entirely without restraint17. There are restraints placed on all people for the common good, without which organized society would be unsafe18. Individual rights must be balanced against public safety. In fact, the Court found there is no
element in the liberty secured by the Constitution of the United States that one person, or a minority of persons, residing in any community and enjoying the benefits of its local government, should have the power thus to dominate the majority when supported in their action by the authority of the State19.

The State's power is not absolute when it comes to vaccination. A court may strike down vaccination regulatory enforcement if "the police power of a State . . . [is] exerted in such circumstances or by regulations so arbitrary and oppressive in particular cases as to justify the interference of the courts to prevent wrong and oppression20." How far a regulatory scheme must go to be arbitrary and oppressive is unclear, but it shows the Court is cognizant of potential issues with implementation of vaccination regimes21."

Here is a link that might be useful: The Mandatory Vaccination of Health Care Workers

    Bookmark   November 5, 2013 at 1:13PM
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mylab123(z5NW)

I agree with Lily.
We will be getting ours this Friday when he gets off work. We both had the flu the first year we lived here - I never want to go through that again. We both were so sick it scared us. Once we were finally on our feet and back to our jobs, it took us over 3 months before we had old energy back.
Never again.
Flu shots every single year in early November - we will never skip a year ever again.

    Bookmark   November 5, 2013 at 1:18PM
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lily316(z5PA)

You're right, mylab. Flu is AWFUL!!. I had it maybe ten or twelve years ago at Xmas time, and it took me till the end of January to be half way normal. I was a dozen years younger than I am now, and the first time out walking a month later, I was exhausted at a block and was walking at the speed of a 90 year old. Scratch that...my mother at 90 could walk really fast.

Mr Lily and I go in early October, and I nag my kids to get theirs. They're always too busy, but when grandson was going to Quebec for a week with his French class last winter, daughter took him and they both got flu shots. Son ignored me, and guess who came down with a roaring case of it. You can bet this year he'll not be too busy.

    Bookmark   November 5, 2013 at 1:56PM
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david52 Zone 6

After having Guillan Barre, they've told me to avoid getting the flu vaccine.

I had the flu two winters ago - same thing, just flattened for a month.

    Bookmark   November 5, 2013 at 1:58PM
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mylab123(z5NW)

Lily, be careful not to go too early.
My Dr. Told me just recently that the shot has its greatest effectiveness for three months following, but pharmacies begin the advertising and robo calling way early in order to avoid a crush and have an idea of how many inoculations they should have on hand in Nov- Dec. Because the end of Dec through March are the worst outbreak months for the flu, he advised that we get then early to mid November.

I suspect the timing of getting the shot doesnt matter so much for people up to their early 40's but after that it could make a difference. Im 62 now, so I approach things differently than I did when I was late 40's. I feel terrific and take good care of myself but who knows how spiffy my immunity system is feeling * LOL*

Stay away from crowds David and Jodi! But maybe it would be a safer thing if your spouses got it?

    Bookmark   November 5, 2013 at 3:04PM
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jodik_gw

Like David, I have a good reason for avoiding flu shots... and since I'm not exposed to large crowds on anything resembling a regular basis, and I don't work in the health care industry, I see no reason why I should take the risk... the risk being getting the shot.

    Bookmark   November 5, 2013 at 9:01PM
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FingNugSnug

Pidge, I actually feel like it is a loss of freedom...the freedom to make my own health care decisions and to decide what I put into my own body. This isn't the polio shot we are talking about, where polio was finally eradicated in most parts of the world. The flu shot will never stop the return of flu season every year, thus we have to be re-vaccinated and must re-introduce the adjuvant toxins into our body year after year.

David52, you mention the enormous and constantly growing chemical and toxin load we are constantly exposed to. Have you looked at the list of chemicals and known toxins that are in your flu shot? You are not only breathing them in my friend, you are injecting them into your bloodstream year after year. Like DUH! And this provides you with about a 50% chance of not coming down with the 3-4 viruses in the shot out of the many in the air you breathe. I'm sorry, but this is a no-brainer for me. I am simply asking for the right to make my own decisions, and for you to respect my choice.

    Bookmark   November 6, 2013 at 11:26AM
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momj47(7A)

It may be a "loss of freedom", but if you want to work for an employer that requires a flu shot or Hep B, or even a TB test, you have to decide where your priorities lie. No one is forcing you, against your will, to work for a particular company.

    Bookmark   November 6, 2013 at 11:45AM
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lily316(z5PA)

Considering all the deaths and serious life threatening illnesses resulting from the flu, the vaccine certainly is the route I always take with negligible risk. Never ever had a reaction after many years of getting the shot, and didn't get the flu.

    Bookmark   November 6, 2013 at 12:09PM
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FingNugSnug

You are right, momj47. Over 80 people in the hospital I work for have declined the flu shot already, and we are still 1 week away from the deadline to decide. Over 300 people have yet to decide, which means they are waiting until the last minute in the hopes of a change of the policy. These include physicians, PAs, nurses, and employees from all departments. We will all wear masks, but many of us are prepared to find other employment. I just find it ironic that so many people in the healthcare field are uncomfortable with something that the general public accepts so easily.

    Bookmark   November 6, 2013 at 6:00PM
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momj47(7A)

I just find it ironic that so many people in the healthcare field are uncomfortable with something that the general public accepts so easily.

I don't find it ironic at all. I've found that people in the healthcare field are just as nutty as anyone else, following bizarre diets, believing discredited ideas, denying scientific facts in favor of pseudoscience and buying the potions and elixirs of snake oil salesmen. Why, many of them even smoke!

There's no good reason not to get a flu shot. It's a lot safer and a lot less painful than getting the flu, for you and your family, and your friends and your patients.

I got the shot the first day it was offered, I needed to make sure I got it before the grandkids brought the flu home from school.

    Bookmark   November 6, 2013 at 8:17PM
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frank_il

"There's no good reason not to get a flu shot. It's a lot safer and a lot less painful than getting the flu, for you and your family, and your friends and your patients."

I agree, especially if you work in a hospital. As a teacher I get one every year.

    Bookmark   November 6, 2013 at 8:42PM
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jodik_gw

Like I said before, unless I am physically present to watch my own son, who is a doctor of pharmacology, actually compound the flu injection explaining every ingredient and why it's necessary, I will not be getting that shot.

I already have a compromised immune system. To me, it's a choice I'd like to be able make, myself. Medical personnel should be able to make their own choices, too.

Just because someone doesn't think blindly trusting in modern medicine 100% of the time is the wisest thing to do, doesn't mean they're stupid, or anything of the kind.

Some vaccinations are wonderful things... but I have my doubts about something that's needed yearly to keep up with mutating strains of flu that I may never come into contact with.

    Bookmark   November 6, 2013 at 8:45PM
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frank_il

"Like I said before, unless I am physically present to watch my own son, who is a doctor of pharmacology, actually compound the flu injection explaining every ingredient and why it's necessary, I will not be getting that shot."

Let me get this straight. If your PhD son told you to take the injection, you would make him take the time of explaining it to you in detail. You would not just take him at his word?

    Bookmark   November 6, 2013 at 9:29PM
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FingNugSnug

"There's no good reason not to get a flu shot. It's a lot safer....than getting the flu...."

Says who? The manufacturer? The government and private agencies that may benefit from the billions of dollars generated from the pharmaceutical industry? This is a huge BUSINESS. Their primary objective is to make money. Think about how many new vaccines have come onto the market in the last decade. Some good and very beneficial, others questionable. HPV and chicken pox are on my questionable list. This is the topic of a whole new thread, but the chicken pox vaccine and the rise in shingles are not surprisingly linked. Was it really necessary to mandate the varicella vaccine for healthy children, thereby robbing them of lifetime immunity? And guess what? Not only does Merck make a fortune on the varicella vaccine, but they also now have a booster shot and shingles vaccine.

I am not a nutcase, no more than the person who blindly stands in line waiting for the next vaccine that is deemed necessary. I am open to changing my position on this if I can be assured of a safe and effective vaccine. I will not be injected with toxins on a yearly basis to conform with popular opinion. Show me scientific, unbiased facts. We will never agree on this issue. Just open your eyes, do your own research, see who is funding the study that you are taking as gospel, keep an open mind, and respect the views of others that may differ from yours.

    Bookmark   November 6, 2013 at 9:59PM
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frank_il

"I am open to changing my position on this if I can be assured of a safe and effective vaccine. I will not be injected with toxins on a yearly basis to conform with popular opinion. Show me scientific, unbiased facts. We will never agree on this issue. Just open your eyes, do your own research, see who is funding the study that you are taking as gospel, keep an open mind, and respect the views of others that may differ from yours."

I don't even know what to say after all of the contradictions in that passage. You will change your position if you can be shown proof of a safe and effective vaccine. Then you say that we will never agree on this issue. Then I am told to open MY eyes and do some research, but then you tell me that the studies that I am looking at are funded by big pharmaceutical companies. I am told to open MY eyes and "respect the views of others that may differ from yours."

I have a question for you. Do you think there is a link between vaccines and autism?

    Bookmark   November 6, 2013 at 10:43PM
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patriciae_gw(07)

Of those of you who decline flu shots-how many do not drive or ride in cars? Surely it is more dangerous to your precious body to expose it to auto accidents.

    Bookmark   November 6, 2013 at 10:51PM
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FingNugSnug

Frank, I don't know if there is a link between vaccines and autism. Do you? Does anyone? My kids received the required childhood vaccines and are ok. My friend's child was healthy until his 15 month shots. He had a seizure within 5 minutes of the shot, spent a week in the hospital, and has since been diagnosed with autism, among a few other things. I don't know if that was a coincidence or a direct result of the shot. I worked in a major children's hospital and saw this scenario more times than I wanted to....the seizure or high fever after a vaccine, don't know if these kids were diagnosed with autism later.

I didn't mean for my thoughts to be seen as contradictory. I think there will be people that are for and against the flu shot for a long time to come, but I'm trying to say that I am keeping an open mind about its value. I haven't seen anything yet that convinces me that the potential adverse effects are worth the questionable gain.

When I said open your eyes I meant don't take everything at face value. This was not meant to insult you. I don't know what study you are reading, so how can I tell you it is funded by a big pharmaceutical company? There are definitely studies that are biased both ways--for and against, in favor of the entity funding it. This is true about all studies, not just ones on vaccines. It's hard to know what is independent and accurate. In the end we just have to make the best decision we can for ourselves. The reason I said "respect the views of others that may differ from yours" is that I find there is much hostility on both sides of this debate.

Patricia, my body IS precious to me. I have seen too much to not appreciate my good health, which is exactly why I find myself in this position. I won't even waste my time commenting on your question.

    Bookmark   November 7, 2013 at 12:37AM
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mylab123(z5NW)

Luckily, everyone can exercise their freedom, as far as the op goes.

Take the shot and keep the same job you probably had last year - which is the choice of that particular institution, or choose to decline and search for employment elsewhere, which would be exercising your own freedom.

The medical institution takes responsibility for it's patients who's health is already compromised, by doing what is currently available to prevent the flu infection from sickening their patients. They firmly believe this is the course to take.
If any employee feels firmly that they are at greater risk of injury to their own good health by being inoculated with the flu shot every year, then it's their responsibility to leave the institution and find employment in a place which makes no such demand.
I dont get where the debate comes in. EVERYBODY is exercising their freedom of choice in this case.

What I dont understand is: why it is suddenly an issue with any employee if they have worked at the institution for more than a single year. After all, they went through the same drill last year and the year before. No surprises, there. If this is actually the first flu season of their employment well, - now they know. Time to find another job if they choose to decline.
I wonder if those declining employees would refuse chemo or radiation or that combo if they were told that without them, death was likely?
Maybe some would. If so, it would be their freedom of choice.

Ill get the inoculation, this Friday afternoon, in fact.
I fully expect to be here, healthy and flu free next week and next month and next year!
;)

    Bookmark   November 7, 2013 at 12:30PM
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jodik_gw

As a matter of fact, I don't drive... and we don't go anywhere very often, truth be told... but I wouldn't inject the fluids from our automobile directly into my vein, either.

Kind of like eating certain processed foods, or being prayed over, I don't feel comfortable being injected with a substance I'm not absolutely certain is necessary.

No, Frank, I probably would not... I love my son dearly, but he's a well paid product of the medical industry.

    Bookmark   November 7, 2013 at 12:59PM
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patriciae_gw(07)

When you ride in a car you are subjecting yourself to not only your own ineptitudes and chances of fate but also the ineptitudes and so forth of others. Since 35,000 people die on average in the US from car accidents every year-not to mention the many thousands that are maimed or just somewhat damaged it is a serious risk to your health to ride in a car. We pretty much do it without thought-it is an acceptable risk for most people. Frank thinks I am foolish for bringing this up-but Frank I think you cant come up with anything to refute my point that you most likely also engage in this risky behavior.
Having said that I also think it is prudent to do your homework and don't just take big Pharma's word for everything but unfortunately they are the ones with the studies. Childhood vaccines have proven themselves over the years in obvious savings of lives-you cant get around that. Where is polio, the deaf and blind who had measles, Diphtheria deaths and so on? I have also thought that Flu shots are over sold as to the benefits for many people but at the same time I don't see any serious repercussions except for the few people who are sensitive to the carriers used. Since I do know that you are shedding virus for 2 or 3 days before you have any symptoms those who work in the health care system are in a unique position to infect the health impaired before they can take the prudent step of staying home. I support companies who make you get your shots since I don't want to be on the receiving end since I am asthmatic. Selfish of me I guess.

    Bookmark   November 7, 2013 at 3:30PM
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kacee2002

Everyone born before 1971 should have gotten a smallpox vaccination and we all have a scar.


Not true. I was born in 1951. Got the smallpox vaccine but have no scar. Not sure why.   
As a side my older sisters got their vaccine (in the late 40's) on their backs so they could wear sleeveless clothes and have no scar show.
    Bookmark   November 7, 2013 at 3:48PM
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jodik_gw

I have a lot more control over the automobile than I do over an injection once it's injected. If I don't feel comfortable driving, or I don't feel comfortable about the cars around me, I can exit and take a different route, or stop the car and get out.

Once injected, I'm at the mercy of whatever is in the concoction and however it decides to react with my body and its systems. There is no stopping, or going back.

For the record, neither my son nor my own doctor push flu shots. They will give them to patients who ask, of course, but they've never tried to convince us that this is the best thing to do. And surprisingly, neither one is alarmed that we don't feel getting a flu shot is necessary.

    Bookmark   November 7, 2013 at 4:13PM
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terriks

Jodi, since you have a compromised immune system it is more important for you to get a flu shot, since your weaker immune system will have more difficulty fighting the virus.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) recommends that everyone, 6 months and older, should receive the flu vaccine. Some people are more likely to get the flu or to have a severe infection if they catch it. People at risk of more serious flu infections should always get a flu vaccine every year. The CDC recommends making an extra effort to vaccinate:

Pregnant women or women who will be pregnant during the flu season
Children 6 months to 5 years of age, especially those under 2 years of age
Household contacts and caregivers of children under the age of 6 months, including breastfeeding women
Health care workers and those who live with health care workers
People who have chronic lung or heart disease
People who have sickle cell anemia or other hemoglobinopathies
People living in a nursing home or extended care facilities
People living with someone who has chronic health problems
People who have kidney disease, anemia, severe asthma, diabetes, or chronic liver disease
People who have a weakened immune system (including those with cancer or HIV/AIDS)

Here is a link that might be useful: NIH link

    Bookmark   November 7, 2013 at 7:52PM
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FingNugSnug

Mylab, I live in New York State. This is the first time we are mandated.

I don't understand how you can compare the flu shot with chemo and radiation. Death is not likely from getting the flu. The benefits of chemo and radiation far outweigh the benefits of the flu shot.

In regards to your comment about the medical institution believing this is the course to take, at least in New York, it is big government that has mandated this. Granted, some hospitals already had that policy in place, but many didn't. They are now scrambling to meet the deadline set by the politicians. I have to wonder why NY felt compelled to intervene in this matter, when other states haven't.

I just came upon an article that looks interesting, to me at least. I haven't read it yet, just skimmed over it. It is dated today, and it looks like the CDC conducted the study.

http://healthimpactnews.com/2013/cdc-study-mandatory-flu-vaccinations-of-health-care-workers-offer-no-protection-to-patients/

    Bookmark   November 7, 2013 at 8:58PM
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kittiemom

I work in healthcare & I don't know anyone who works in the field who doesn't get the flu shot. I got an email today asking for verification that all of our doctors & NP's had gotten the shot. They all had. DH forgot to get his once & of course got the flu. He was out of work for over a week. He hasn't forgotten again.

    Bookmark   November 7, 2013 at 9:42PM
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FingNugSnug

Terricks,

I have in front of me the manufacturer's package insert for the Fluvirin Influenza Virus Vaccine by Novartis, 2013-2014 formula. Under Pregnancy section 8.1:
"Pregnancy Category C: Animal reproduction studies have not been conducted with Fluvirin. It is also not known whether Fluvirin can cause fetal harm when administered to a pregnant woman or can affect reproduction capacity. Fluvirin should be given to a pregnant woman only if clearly needed."

Also says a little lower under pediatric use that safety has not been established in children under 4 years of age.

Under Warnings and Precautions:
"5.2 Altered Immunocompetence
If Fluvirin is administered to immunocompromised persons, including
individuals receiving immunosuppressive therapy, the expected
immune response may not be obtained.
5.3 ....The tip caps of the Fluvirin prefilled syringes may contain natural
rubber latex which may cause allergic reactions in latex sensitive
Individuals."

This is the brand given by my employer.

Quite a contradiction from the CDC recommendations, don't you think? I would love to have access to the product info for vaccines from other manufacturers.

Don't know if there are "safer" vaccines for pregnant women and children. I know there are thimerosal-free vaccines, but what about the other toxins? If "safer" vaccines are available for those younger than 4 and for expecting moms, why aren't they given to everyone?

    Bookmark   November 7, 2013 at 9:59PM
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FingNugSnug

Didn't see this contradiction the first time:
"8.3 Nursing Mothers
It is not known whether Fluvirin is excreted in human milk. Because many
drugs are excreted in human milk, caution should be exercised when
Fluvirin is administered to a nursing woman."

    Bookmark   November 7, 2013 at 11:00PM
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FingNugSnug

FYI: Sanofi Pasteur is the only company I can find that makes a vaccine for children as young as 6 months. I feel better now knowing that there is a vaccine approved for them. Can't find info on pregnant women yet.

    Bookmark   November 7, 2013 at 11:37PM
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plaidbird

"During 1976--2007, annual estimates of influenza-associated deaths from respiratory and circulatory causes ranged from 3,349 (in 1986--87) to 48,614 (in 2003--04), and the annual rate of influenza-associated death for all ages ranged from 1.4 to 16.7 deaths per 100,000 persons;

during seasons when influenza A(H3N2) circulating strains were prominent, 2.7 times more deaths occurred compared with seasons when A(H3N2) was not prominent."

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5933a1.htm

    Bookmark   November 8, 2013 at 1:29AM
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momj47(7A)

If a person doesn't support getting flu shots, they'll produce research and supporting information that paints the shot as dangerous, ineffective and worthless.

If a person supports getting flu shots, they'll produce research and supporting information that paints the shot as effective and harmless and worth getting.

For the rest of us there's a reasonable middle ground that discusses the benefits and risks of the flu shots in a rational, fair-minded way.

I had the flu once, I never want it again, ever. I got the super-duper old people's flu shot this year.

If your employer mandates flu shots - it's up to you to decide if you want to continue in your current job. Can you get another job easily?

    Bookmark   November 8, 2013 at 7:50AM
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jodik_gw

Terriks, if my doctor thought I should get a shot, I know he would convince me it's the thing to do... but he's not your typical industry owned physician. He sees the holes in health care, and knows the establishment isn't always right. I trust his judgment.

With the current state of my disease, I think it would be a big mistake to add another unknown ingredient to the mix. And besides, I am not a part of the normal crush of public near any urban or suburban areas... I'm exposed to the same 3 people every day... and beyond that, the very rare trip to town for supplies.

    Bookmark   November 8, 2013 at 7:56AM
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lionheart_gw

As much as I think that the flu vaccine is the best course for most people, and that most of the politically active anti-vax folks are nuts (not counting those who genuinely can't take the vaccine), my reflexive anti-authoritarian streak absolutely despises these sorts of decrees.

So my sympathies lie with the folks who hate being pushed around.

    Bookmark   November 8, 2013 at 8:00AM
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