What's the Democrat ACA line today?

adoptedbyhoundsNovember 14, 2013

This is a fun read from Mickey Kaus. You'll recognize these laughable "lines" as the same ones the true believers post here every day, in their zeal to ensure we all understand how GREAT obamacare is!

FTA: "I’d like to toe the party line on insurance cancellations, but it keeps changing!

Old line: These are all “junk” plans! They deserved to die! People are better off without them!

Problem: There are lots of people on plans that seem reasonable that they were happy with.

New line: Aha! Yes, it’s true, “some of the people getting cancellation notices had generous coverage.“** But if they only could go on the web site they’d see they’ll wind up paying less!

Problem: No,a big chunk"maybe the whole 40% or so who won’t get any subsidies, maybe an even greater share"will be paying more.

New line: Of course they will! Who said they wouldn’t? They should pay more! They’ve unfairly “benefited from … discrimination’ because, for example, they don’t have preexisting conditions. They deserve a premium increase. Anyway, they’re disproportionately “younger, healthier, and richer.” Screw ‘em!"

He ends with this: "We’re the people who thought Obamacare would save us! Now Cohn & Ezra Klein tell us we’re the people Obamacare is out to punish.

Freelancers, always the suckers."

Full article at link below.

PS Popcorn time! The president will appear on TV today at 11:30 EST. The believers will tune in to get their marching orders, and whatever he promises will be their new line! Whether it makes sense or not.

Here is a link that might be useful: source

Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

nonononononononononono... not another ACA thread. NO

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 11:08AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
Circus Peanut

O ferchrissakes. Nik, even if you aren't getting paid for these thousands of threads, you sure do a bangup imitation of it. Troll.

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 11:14AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

nonononononononononono...

Just the warm up for the deluge when immigration reform gains more traction.

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 11:21AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
heri_cles

If you are going to pimp for the Health Insurance companies to this degree (literally dominating this forum now for weeks), I at least hope that you, like Wendell Potter, are being paid by someone.

The Health Insurance industry and their paid shills will go down eventually like other organized crime syndicates. Tens of thousands die prematurely every year because they do not have access to preventative care. That is often because they have been thrown off their policies by Health Insurance companies for pre-existing conditions, for technical errors on applications, or by being priced out of access to health insurance.
The deadly spin you have championed here reminds me of a line that a critic of Wendell Potter used:
"May your God be a merciful one."

Here is a link that might be useful: You will be defeated again

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 11:34AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

It is all about google ratings. Millions of hits on opposition to ACA to convince Americans that there is overwhelming opposition to ACA.

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 11:45AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
mrskjun(9)

Keep goin nik...you have a long way to go to catch up to the Sarah Palin threads!

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 12:01PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
dublinbay z6 (KS)

I already answered this question at the end of the previous ACA thread--and therefore don't care to repeat myself here. Go there, if you really want an answer--but of course, you do NOT. You just want to poke and prod.

Kate

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 12:05PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
lily316(z5PA)

Good God..another thread on ACA. Do you actually have a life, or are you a paid shill for the teaparty?I have scrolled on by every one.

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 12:12PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

What the new ACA process has highlighted is that many of the existing policies were junk and would not stand up to scrutiny of more universal standards of insurance and health care. That seems to be ignored, following the principle and your can fool many people most of the time; just to highlight the fact.

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 12:13PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
jlhug

And another stunning example of the pile mentality exhibited by so many posters here.
. Great work, folks!

This post was edited by jlhug on Thu, Nov 14, 13 at 12:17

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 12:15PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
david52_gw

Pardon me for once again questioning the sincerity of this sudden, deep and compassionate concern for those of our fellow citizens in the individual market, who have been exploited by insurance companies for decades now with far higher premiums, dropped coverage, refused payments, and many black-balled out of the market with pre-conditions.

Now, seeing the proposals the teaparty republicans have put forward to replace, nay improve on Obamacare, all these incessant posts from Nik detailing these improvements, I'm just grateful to be an American. Yes, now I see clearly that we, together as a nation, have recognized this sad plight of the individual entrepreneur in the American Health Insurance market, and are working so hard to improve it: together, one nation, under God.

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 12:20PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
demifloyd(8)

Posted by mrskjun 9 (My Page) on
Thu, Nov 14, 13 at 12:01

Keep goin nik...you have a long way to go to catch up to the Sarah Palin threads!

*

You're on a roll mrskjun!

Looks like Obamacare is making the kitchen kind of hot!

WE TOLD YOU SO!

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 12:42PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
ninamarie(4Ont.)

Whine, whine, complain, compain, lather, rinse and repeat.

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 12:44PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

AS THE PRESIDENT MENTIONED A FEW MINUTES AGO IN HIS PRESS CONFERENCE, THE VAST MAJORITY OF INSURED AND ALL THE UNINSURED AND ALL THE MEDICARE AND MEDICADE FOLKS HAVE KEPT THEIR INSURANCE; JUST SOME OF THE 5% OF THE INDIVIDUALLY INSURED HAVE HAD THEIR ANNUAL POLICIES NOT RENEWED.

THE PROBLEM IS NOT IN KEEPING INSURANCE BUT IN THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THE WEB-BASED ENROLLMENT PROCESS. THAT LAST IS A DOG BECAUSE GOVERNMENTS ARE INCOMPETENT BECAUSE GOVERNMENT HAS OUTSOURCED MOST OF ITS EXPERTISE IN PURSUIT OF CHEAPER GOVERNMENT. YEAH, RIGHT, HOW'D THAT WORK OUT FOR YOU FOLKS?

SINGLE PAYER INSURANCE

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 12:52PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
heri_cles

Oh I am all for single payer, but that is not an option unless the Democratic party gains control of the Presidency and both Houses of Congress, including a filibuster proof majority in the Senate.

However, as marshallz pointed out, the ACA has exposed the fact that the out of control private health insurance industry is beyond repair. That is the problem, not our people or our government. What needs to be junked is the entire Health Insurance industry, nut the ACA which is a mighty attempt to regulate them.

This post was edited by heri_cles on Thu, Nov 14, 13 at 13:05

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 1:03PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
demifloyd(8)

Posted by ninamarie 4Ont. (My Page) on
Thu, Nov 14, 13 at 12:44

Whine, whine, complain, compain, lather, rinse and repeat.

*

How original.

I guess when trying to answer the Trainwreck of Obamacare, a decades old little tired saying is better than not posting, eh?

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 1:15PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
sleeplessinftwayne(z4-5 IND)

I am pretty sure most of the Obamabots won't bother to read this because it is from Fox but I have no doubt the same info is out there without the Fox teeth if you care to look.

Talk about money laundering. If it wasn't so disgusting it would be funny. They just keep getting richer and richer.

Here is a link that might be useful: Obama's cronies and favorites keep winning

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 1:41PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Congratulations, Nik, you've reduced Marshall's resistance to the point that is he yelling at us. (btw, I agree with his comments.)

When you've lost / broke Marshall, we know that you've passed a milestone.

lather, rinse and repeat

This repetition recalls the gloating in thread after thread that Mitt Romney would win the presidential vote in 2012.

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 1:42PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
fancifowl(5Pa)

Did anyone really expect his latest fiasco to actually work?? Look back at some other failures he has promoted, how about the old auto buy back! That was a signal of what else was to come, and pass into a failed venture. My, what lies ahead? This administration is simply a failure.

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 1:46PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
heri_cles

You are concerned about health insurance lobbyists and cronies now?
From Michael Moore's website:

"According to the Center for Responsive Politics (www.opensecrets.org), in 2005 there were 2,084 health care lobbyists registered with the federal government. With 535 members of Congress, that's 3.895 lobbyists per member. "

But this is all about Obama to you, not about the travesty of the private health insurance industry which he and Congress are trying to regulate in a meaningful way for the first time in our history.

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 1:53PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
adoptedbyhounds

"Keep goin nik...you have a long way to go to catch up to the Sarah Palin threads!"

That's the beauty of a share forum! We're all equals. Posters don't have to ask other posters for permission to post whatever they like. Posters who don't find a topic compelling are free to scroll on by, or start their own thread on what interests them.

That's what this person could have done. Should have done.

Instead, for introducing a new thread based upon an article written by a Democrat who voted for Obama last year, I was repaid with an intolerant personal attack that went like this:

Posted by circuspeanut coastal 5 (My Page) on
Thu, Nov 14, 13 at 11:14

"O ferchrissakes. Nik, even if you aren't getting paid for these thousands of threads, you sure do a bangup imitation of it. Troll."

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 2:18PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
lily316(z5PA)

Thanks for shouting, Marshall. Maybe they will be able to read caps.

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 2:19PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
demifloyd(8)

Posted by fancifowl 5Pa (My Page) on
Thu, Nov 14, 13 at 13:46

Did anyone really expect his latest fiasco to actually work?? Look back at some other failures he has promoted, how about the old auto buy back! That was a signal of what else was to come, and pass into a failed venture. My, what lies ahead? This administration is simply a failure.

*

"As just one example, consider the infamous “Cash for Clunkers” program, the $3 billion federal plan that allowed people to trade in an old car in exchange for about $4,000 off the purchase of a new one. The administration argued it would stimulate the U.S. economy and improve the environment. Critics saw it as a way for the government to prop up the car companies it had recently bailed out. But whatever the motivation, the program was a bust. Economists at the think tank Resources for the Future have found in a new study that the program did not stimulate the economy, and that 45 percent of the money went to people who would have bought a new car anyway. In other words, the administration could have cut out the overhead and simply handed out $1.35 billion to random people on the street.:--NRO 9 25 12

And let's not forget the STIMULUS....

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 3:11PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
heri_cles

The Stimulus worked and the economy is starting to accelerate.
Look at the latest economic numbers.
The auto loans worked and saved our auto industry.

Your side LOST the election by 5 Million votes and since then you have proven to be an extremely bitter sore loser.

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 3:27PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
ninamarie(4Ont.)

"I guess when trying to answer the Trainwreck of Obamacare, a decades old little tired saying is better than not posting, eh?"

Thank you demi, for supplying the frothing right on schedule. I trusted you to lather and lather and lather and lather and lather and repeat and repeat and repeat. I knew you'd come through.

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 3:53PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
demifloyd(8)

You're welcome.

Anything to expose the liar Barack Obama and what and the Democrats have produced.

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 3:55PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

IOW, let the delusions continue through another thread, even incoherently expressed.

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 3:58PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
jerzeegirl(9)

When the spittle starts flying, I tend to back away.

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 4:09PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
fancifowl(5Pa)

Americans have short memories.

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 4:10PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
chase_gw

i think all this vitriol will come back to haunt those who are just about wetting their pants in anticipation of a failure for this president.

One only needs read the posts to know that's all it has to do with. It's all about bringing hm down and nothing to do with healthcare.

Read the posts......just one rant after another about the President and very little about the issue of healthcare that works for the American people.

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 4:37PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
jerzeegirl(9)

They could not care less about healthcare, chase.

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 5:02PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
demifloyd(8)

Oh, I care about health care and have voiced my opinions.

No one is interested in my opinions, least of all Barack Obama.

So, he has the power--he was given the power, and so were the Democrats, and this is their solution.

We are forced to accept Obamacare.

Let's do it.

If it doesn't work and you all have insisted that it will and that Barack Obama and the Democrats say it will and someone is interested in my opinions and those of other conservatives, we will voice them.

But you knew best, as always.
Obama knew best, as always.
You have to pass the bill to read it.

Until then the die is cast--Obamacare is here and ready for Prime Time !

A little over 106,000 people signed up for health care insurance (mostly on state exchanges) and over 5 MILLION people have lost their health care insurance.

BANG UP JOB BARRY!

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 5:08PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

They reflect the attitude: "have mine"

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 5:09PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
mrskjun(9)

They reflect the attitude: "have mine"

And "they" are paying for it!

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 6:15PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
ninamarie(4Ont.)

Troops could march through American cities killing citizens and it wouldn't garner as much outrage as conservatives are mustering now.
I say, save just a little of that outrage for a truly rainy day.
Now take a deep breath. Worse things than a new health care plan will befall you and everyone else.
Oh, and stop listening to the television hosts and radio talk jocks and going to internet sites that outrage you so much and so often about so very little.. It truly is not healthy.
There are all sorts of addictions, and apparently, outrage is one of them.

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 6:27PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
dublinbay z6 (KS)

There are all sorts of addictions, and apparently, outrage is one of them.

Wonderful observation, ninamarie! I may borrow it in the future, if you don't mind. : )

Kate

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 6:53PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
fancifowl(5Pa)

The addiction appears to be , gimme gimme, Take their money and give it to me.

A great many Americans are simply against the further creep of socialism. We don't want the govt in health care, or much of anything else. That's the problem. Maybe having a president who is a liar doesn't help either. Or a president who has shown himself to be a total failure, and one who appears to not know anything about anything, as he has admitted. Its about a hell of a lot more than government run health care.

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 7:12PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
mrskjun(9)

How about what he didn't know. A much longer list than what he did know.

IRS
Benghazi
NSA
Fast and Furious
Failure of ACA website testing

These all seem important...but maybe not.

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 7:19PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Dio mio!

I wish there were this much outrage regarding the effects of global climate change.

And speaking of outrage, and lies, it would be quite the experience if the usual suspects ever voiced so much outrage because of the following lies: George W. Bush
Address to the Nation
March 17, 2003

Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised.

Dick Cheney
Speech to VFW National Convention
August 26, 2002

Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction.

Ari Fleisher
Press Briefing
March 21, 2003

Well, there is no question that we have evidence and information that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, biological and chemical particularly . . . all this will be made clear in the course of the operation, for whatever duration it takes.

Gen. Tommy Franks
Press Conference
March 22, 2003

There is no doubt that the regime of Saddam Hussein possesses weapons of mass destruction. And . . . as this operation continues, those weapons will be identified, found, along with the people who have produced them and who guard them.

Defense Policy Board member Kenneth Adelman
Washington Post, p. A27
March 23, 2003

I have no doubt we're going to find big stores of weapons of mass destruction.

Pentagon Spokeswoman Victoria Clark
Press Briefing
March 22, 2003

One of our top objectives is to find and destroy the WMD. There are a number of sites.

Donald Rumsfeld
ABC Interview
March 30, 2003

We know where they are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat.

Neocon scholar Robert Kagan
Washington Post op-ed
April 9, 2003

Obviously the administration intends to publicize all the weapons of mass destruction U.S. forces find -- and there will be plenty.

Ari Fleischer
Press Briefing
April 10, 2003

But make no mistake -- as I said earlier -- we have high confidence that they have weapons of mass destruction. That is what this war was about and it is about. And we have high confidence it will be found.

George W. Bush
NBC Interview
April 24, 2003

We are learning more as we interrogate or have discussions with Iraqi scientists and people within the Iraqi structure, that perhaps he destroyed some, perhaps he dispersed some. And so we will find them.

Donald Rumsfeld
Press Briefing
April 25, 2003

There are people who in large measure have information that we need . . . so that we can track down the weapons of mass destruction in that country.

George W. Bush
Remarks to Reporters
May 3, 2003

We'll find them. It'll be a matter of time to do so.

Colin Powell
Remarks to Reporters
May 4, 2003

I'm absolutely sure that there are weapons of mass destruction there and the evidence will be forthcoming. We're just getting it just now.

And someone who was too candid: Paul Wolfowitz
Vanity Fair interview
May 28, 2003

For bureaucratic reasons, we settled on one issue, weapons of mass destruction (as justification for invading Iraq) because it was the one reason everyone could agree on.

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 7:35PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
elvis

Nancy, your (very nice!) list has nothing whatsoever to do with what the current pres is/is not responsible for. You know that, so why the deflection tactic? To your credit, you are at least transparent.

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 7:42PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
jodik_gw

Were I pimping so hard, I'd be getting tested...

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 7:49PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
mrskjun(9)

"The community of nations may see more and more of the very kind of threat Iraq poses now: a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction, ready to use them or provide them to terrorists. If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps woill be emboldened tommorrow." - President Bill Clinton 1998

"Saddam's goal...is to achieve the lifting of U.N. sanctions while retaining and enhancing Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs. We cannot, we must not and we will not let him succeed." - Secretary of State Madeline Albright, 1998
,br> "Iraq is not the only nation in the world to possess weapons of mass destruction, but it is the only nation with a leader who has used them against his own people." - Senator Tom Dashle, 1998

"There is no doubt that...Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear weapons programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of allicit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies." - Senator Bob Graham, December 2001

"Iraq does pose a serious threat to the stability of the Persian Gulf and we should organize an international coalition to eliminate his access to weapons of mass destruction. Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to completely deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power." Former Vice President Al Gore, 2002

"I share this administration's goals in dealing with Iraq and its weapons of mass destruction." - Richard Gephardt, September 2002

"There is no doubt that Saddam Hussein's regime is a serious danger, that he is a tyrant, and that his pursuit of lethal weapons of mass destruction cannot be tolerated. He must be disarmed." - Senator Edward Kennedy, September 2002

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country." - Fomrer Vice President Al Gore, September 2002 br> "In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Queda members, though there is apparently no evidence in his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. Should he succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security landscape of the Middle East, which as we know all too well affects American security." Senator Hillary Clinton, October 2002

"I will be voting to give the president of the United States the authority to use force if necessary - to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadlt arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." Senator John Kerry, October 2003

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retained some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build his chemical and biological warfare capability. intelligence reports also indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons, but has not yet achieved nuclear capability." Senator Robert Byrd, October, 2002

"Saddam Hussein's regime represents a grave threat to America and our allies, including our vital ally, Israel. For more than two decades, Saddam Hussein sought weapons of mass destruction through every available means. We know that he has chemical and biological weapons. He already used them against his neighbors and his own people and is trying to build more. We know that he is doing everything he can to build nuclear weapons, and we know that each day he gets closer to achieving that goal." Senator John Edwards, October 2002

"Iraq made commitments after the Gulf War to completely dismantle all weapons of mass destruction, and unfortunately, Iraq has not lived up to its agreement." - Barbara Boxer, November 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction." - Bob Graham, December 2002

"Without question we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppresive regime...He presents a particularly grievious threat because he is so consistantly prone to miscalculation. And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction...So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real." - Senator John Kerry, January, 2003

"I am absolutely confident that there are weapons...I saw evidence back in 1998 when we could see the inspectors being barred gaining entry into a warehouse for hours with trucks rolling up and then moving those trucks out." Clinton's Secretary of Defense, William Cohen, April 2003

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 8:04PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
sweeby

For what it's worth Nik --

My plan did get cancelled. Hubby's too.
But they were junk plans and they did deserve to die.

I can understand why people thought their old policies were pretty good. That's what we thought when we bought them.
I'm betting those people didn't get sick and actually need to use their non-compliant plans. If they did need to use them, they'd have found the loopholes.

We're not eligible for subsidies --
But I found out today that the cost of our new Platinum level plan is about $200 per month less than our old crappy plans.

As for who's subsidizing who?
After the ACA required a rebate from insurers who underpaid claims, we got over $1,800 back last year. -- So we weren't being subsidized by anyone, even the insurance company.

The web site launch was a disaster. Admittedly.
But now that the web site is working, I found it LONG, but very clear about what the process was, what the plans did and did not cover, and how to find a plan that fit our needs. A much nicer process actually than the fruitless health insurance shopping I did over the past few years.

But most importantly - For the first time in 10 years, thanks to the ACA, we've got some measure of financial security again.

Starting January first, my family is no longer one blood test away from potential bankruptcy.

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 8:26PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
elvis

•Posted by jodik 5 (My Page) on Thu, Nov 14, 13 at 19:49

"Were I pimping so hard, I'd be getting tested..."

You want to explain what that means, jodik? I did, of course, look it up, but none of the definitions were helpful.

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 8:38PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

Thanks, sweeby, for a most heartening post. Thanks for sticking to the process and not get bogged down in ideological angst.

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 8:41PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
october17(5chgo)

•Posted by heri_cles (My Page) on
Thu, Nov 14, 13 at 13:03
However, as marshallz pointed out, the ACA has exposed the fact that the out of control private health insurance industry is beyond repair."

It does not point that out. We already knew that - including you. No credit due to the AHCA for that.

"What needs to be junked is the entire Health Insurance industry,"

Wow, that's a good one heri.

" nut the ACA which is a mighty attempt to regulate them."

No it isn't. Not in the least. The AHCA is REQUIRING us to buy insurance from those insurance companies. They are extremely happy with the law, charging us for insurance we will never use. Pediatric dental????? Maternity??????? Can't wait to find out what else we are paying for that we will never use. They couldn't be happier, heri.

Doesn't matter how many times you say/claim it heri, still ain't true.

What a bunch of idiots to require all full-time WORKING people to pay for insurance they don't need. I won't vote for anyone who voted for this law - and then exempted themselves from having to follow it!!! If it's so great, if it's the almighty law, why did they do that?

It's gonna be a real chore to vote next election. I hope Nader runs one more time (With a better running mate than last time.)

Good thread nik. Thank you.

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 8:47PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
fancifowl(5Pa)

well, as the latest grab to socialize the country fails I assume we can stand by for a lot more vicious attacks on conservatives from the left. They will bring up race, children, war on women or just about anything they can dredge up. Very spiteful lot they are. and their ship is sinking, their wondrous leader has proven to be as forecast, an empty suit. Look at a few posts up, I mean, Bush and Cheney once again!! That's how bankrupt their arguments are becoming.

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 9:25PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
demifloyd(8)

Posted by fancifowl 5Pa (My Page) on
Thu, Nov 14, 13 at 21:25

well, as the latest grab to socialize the country fails I assume we can stand by for a lot more vicious attacks on conservatives from the left. They will bring up race, children, war on women or just about anything they can dredge up. Very spiteful lot they are. and their ship is sinking, their wondrous leader has proven to be as forecast, an empty suit. Look at a few posts up, I mean, Bush and Cheney once again!! That's how bankrupt their arguments are becoming.

*

Intellectual bankruptcy or cornered rats with no retort to "we told you so?" The MSM is scrambling to show us which.

This post was edited by demifloyd on Thu, Nov 14, 13 at 21:54

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 9:52PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

30+ days into the current phase of ACA and the opposition is generating an unprecedented amount of hand flapping and hyper ventilating.

We're seeing our share on HT. Rant after rant after rant, shrill and loud. (I'm saving a few for examples for when the usual suspects accuse others of being shrill.) The forum is being spammed like never before, and the Washington Times -- Moonie central -- is being used as an authority. This has surpassed the fever pitch which gave birth to the giddy victory predictions for Romney.

Harping on the supposed lies of President Obama regarding what he thought the insurance companies would do -- act in good faith (was he dreaming?) -- and yet the lies that led to thousands of deaths of U.S. soldiers, tens of thousands of wounded, and hundreds of thousands dead Iraqis is non-starter.

Priorities, I guess.

MsK, I debunked your "Clinton did it too" so many times, that I've saved my reply.

Here we go: Posted by nancy_in_venice_ca SS24 z10 CA (My Page) on Thu, May 30, 13 at 22:20

As for those speaking of WMDs, who do you think supplied them with the intelligence briefings on Iraq?

That's right, the Bush Administration.

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 10:31PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

Nancy, you are right. The shrillness is masking deep fears about losing control of this country to a majority of "others" occupying a small part of East and West coasts and part of the upper middle west. There is no cure for this in open and frank discussions based on realities. The obvious cure for those afflicted with these fears is to disenfranchise as many "others" as possible so as to delay transition of national power to these "others."

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 10:52PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
demifloyd(8)

Pathetic.

I wouldn't even try if that was the best I could come up with.

Democrats' hearts aren't in this enough to come up with anything remotely feasible to go to the inboxes for regurgitation.

To answer--tonight's Democrat ACA line is blame the people who are being hurt by Obamacare and taunt them for daring to say the truth--something Barack Obama wouldn't know if it bit him in the behind.

Nancy's been listening to Barry too much--she's now gone to blaming Bush! ROTF

This post was edited by demifloyd on Thu, Nov 14, 13 at 22:58

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 10:54PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

Oops hit a bit nerve there, Nancy. Bon mot!

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 10:57PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
demifloyd(8)

NO nerve, I'm not vested in Bush.

He's not had a duck in the pond for five years.

But that Barry still won't take the reins unless he's taking credit for something good.

That explains why we've only heard Bush Bush Bush from Barry and his minions, now in regard to Obamacare.

I think it's just so darned sad.

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 11:05PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
elvis

nancy: "The forum is being spammed like never before..."

Spammed? Spam is unwanted email. Do you mean that there are unwanted posters? That would mean that there are postings that disagree with your pov more than ever before, I suppose. How about that.

    Bookmark   November 14, 2013 at 11:15PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
duluthinbloomz4

There's always "attention spam".

A condition resulting in a failure to process basic facts or comprehend common knowledge, due largely to having a mind full of useless information.

It's on the internet so it must be true. :-)

    Bookmark   November 15, 2013 at 12:04AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
elvis

"There's always "attention spam"."

Speaking of which, no one's said "oh, look; shiny!" for awhile.

"A condition resulting in a failure to process basic facts or comprehend common knowledge, due largely to having a mind full of useless information.

It's on the internet so it must be true. :-)"

No kidding ;-) There's got to be a synonym for "comprehension" that they could use; I'm so tired of reading posts where someone is telling the world that someone else is "lacking comprehension." Why not just say "you misunderstand..."

Not inflammatory enough, I guess.

    Bookmark   November 15, 2013 at 12:37AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Oops hit a bit nerve there, Nancy.

Of course -- the dead and wounded from Iraq are still on the conscience of conservatives, if they're not still in deep denial about the unnecessary death and destruction unleashed by their own. The Iraq war and occupation is the biggest and deadliest foreign policy blunder in a century, maybe longer.

    Bookmark   November 15, 2013 at 12:39AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

agreed

    Bookmark   November 15, 2013 at 2:24AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
mrskjun(9)

What about the dead and wounded still coming home from Afghanistan? Do you think Obama knows there is still a war going on over there?

    Bookmark   November 15, 2013 at 5:14AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
demifloyd(8)

Posted by mrskjun 9 (My Page) on
Fri, Nov 15, 13 at 5:14

What about the dead and wounded still coming home from Afghanistan? Do you think Obama knows there is still a war going on over there?
*

He wasn't told, he didn't know anything about it.

That is, unless something good happens over there so he can take credit for it.

IN the meantime,

Obama says he did know nuthin bout no spying on citizens

Obama says he didn't know nuthin bout no monitoring of personal cell phone calls of world leaders

Obama says he didn't know nuthin bout no Benghazi pleas for security and nuthin bout no orders to stand down while our people were murdered. Obama just knew bout some video causing all that nasty little ruckus.

Obama says he didn't know nuthin bout no IRS monkey business with applications from conservative groups being held before election

Obama says he didn't know nuthin bout no insurance going to be canceled

Obama says he doesn't know nuthin bout no website not working right

Obama says he didn't know nuthin bout no hate and racist speech from his good friend and spiritual counselor Rev. Wright after listening to his sermons for years.

That Obama.

He sure doesn't know much for such a supposedly smart man, does he?

    Bookmark   November 15, 2013 at 7:59AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
jodik_gw

"You want to explain what that means, jodik? I did, of course, look it up, but none of the definitions were helpful."

It's often difficult to explain humorous cynicism to those with different world views... if, looking at the bigger picture, the satire wasn't clearly notable, nothing I could say would explain it adequately.

Bon mot, indeed, Marshallz!

    Bookmark   November 15, 2013 at 8:11AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
labrea_gw

Thanks Sweeby & once again there is an awful lot of howling from those who don't need it.
In a city of freelancers & temps I am more aware of folks who have plans like yours than the cadillacs that won't change.

In January I will also have a decent plan no government subsidies, no break paid for by me & it will save me thousands & insure that I am not cleaning out my retirement savings because of caps or worse "we believe that you had this condition previously so we are cancelling your policy.

The new histrionics drown out the old FACTS

"An investigation by the House Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations showed that health insurers WellPoint Inc., UnitedHealth Group and Assurant Inc. canceled the coverage of more than 20,000 people, allowing the companies to avoid paying more than $300 million in medical claims over a five-year period.

It also found that policyholders with breast cancer, lymphoma and more than 1,000 other conditions were targeted for rescission and that employees were praised in performance reviews for terminating the policies of customers with expensive illnesses.

"No one can defend, and I certainly cannot defend, the practice of canceling coverage after the fact," said Rep. Michael C. Burgess (R-Tex.), a member of the committee. "There is no acceptable minimum to denying coverage after the fact."

Rescission was largely hidden until three years ago, when The Times launched a series of stories disclosing that insurers routinely canceled the medical coverage of individual policyholders who required expensive medical care.

This is a 4 year old story.
Obviously it doesn't apply to Nik or K or any of the howlers making political hay.

    Bookmark   November 15, 2013 at 8:31AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
maggie2094

Our insurance broker at work said our old plan (I am not on it), was a greaT plan...if you didn't have to use it. Only an insurance person could say something so insane!

Great point, Labrea. It is as if suddenly the insurance industry before Obamacare was perfect!

The republicans think everything is a talking point to be jumped on in our 24 hour news cycle. We are 30 days in...lime Romneycare in MA, this will take 1-3 years to access and we have Romneycare to look to to know this will work.

    Bookmark   November 15, 2013 at 9:18AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
jerzeegirl(9)

In the first month of Romneycare only 123 people enrolled. It makes sense to me. It takes time to do the research and since it doesn't start until January, people do not feel compelled yet to take the leap.

    Bookmark   November 15, 2013 at 9:29AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
chase_gw

One thing I find amusing is the the anti Obama crowd never talk about the plans , the policies, the direction healthcare should take. Never a serious discussion about healthcare.......just Obama bashing.

This will work. It will take time to get going but it will work especially if the right would put their energy into helping improve it.

There is no unwinding this......time to move forward.

    Bookmark   November 15, 2013 at 9:36AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
adoptedbyhounds

"30+ days into the current phase of ACA and the opposition is generating an unprecedented amount of hand flapping and hyper ventilating."

More like 40+ days, and that "opposition" now includes the Democrats who voted for it.

"Starting January first, my family is no longer one blood test away from potential bankruptcy."

Sweeby, Thanks for sharing your reasons for supporting obamacare, and how much better it will be for you and your family. Everybody who supported obamacare was expecting to get the same happy news you did, and if it had worked out that way, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Posters sharing their stories here have exposed the great disparities in how obamacare is "working." The middle class is finding out it can't afford what obamacare requires of it. You are one of the "winners," and Citywoman is one of the "losers." The disparities illustrated by the gulf between the two of you cannot stand. The middle class simply doesn't have the money to pay for the padded policies the president and his party ordered them to buy.

    Bookmark   November 15, 2013 at 9:51AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
maggie2094

Sweeby is in the majority. The plans in the problematic individual market that everyone is making political hay about are 5% of the market.

Give it up.

    Bookmark   November 15, 2013 at 9:56AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
jerzeegirl(9)

Citywoman is one of the "losers." No she isn't. She is 69. Instead of having two payers, she will switch completely to Medicare and be done with it.

    Bookmark   November 15, 2013 at 10:28AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
jillinnj

There are all sorts of addictions, and apparently, outrage is one of them.

Wow, maybe the best line ever on HT! And to think, some that have this addiction say we should put a gun to the heads of those with addictions to see if it's really an addiction. I wonder if they would support that same method on this addiction? ;-)

Nancy - some of us appreciate you pointing out the hypocrisy of the conservatives here in regards to this supposed lie vs the one that directly killed hundreds of thousands of people.

And most of us are smart enough to understand what hyprocits they are. They can ROFL (something only conservatives seem to do around here) thinking we blame Bush for the ACA but anyone with a brain knows the deal.

Chase nailed it:

i think all this vitriol will come back to haunt those who are just about wetting their pants in anticipation of a failure for this president.

One only needs read the posts to know that's all it has to do with. It's all about bringing hm down and nothing to do with healthcare.

Read the posts......just one rant after another about the President and very little about the issue of healthcare that works for the American people.

100% correct. Nothing about healthcare. Only about hating the President. And, of course, their giddiness at the prospect that the ACA could fail (which it won't) and hurt a lot of Americans. They'd be thrilled to have that happen if it will hurt Obama. That is the saddest part of this whole thing. And they have the nerve to call themselves compassionate. Disgusting.

    Bookmark   November 15, 2013 at 10:55AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
epiphyticlvr

Wow, maybe the best line ever on HT!

I agree!

I also agree with the rest of Jill's post.

And Nancy, I applaud your patience and ability to ignore the inane and asinine.

    Bookmark   November 15, 2013 at 11:01AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
jodik_gw

And I have to concur with Epi... well stated, all of you.

It's been nothing but a bashing party turned pity party turned bashing party since the day the poor man was elected as President. It's a hope for failure... though, why?

    Bookmark   November 15, 2013 at 11:24AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
chase_gw

Again I am confused....

I thought I recall Demi saying she would have to give up her private insurance when she qualified for medicare. I may be wrong but I recall a discussion about whether that was the call of the insurer not the ACA/Medicare.......

Now what CW says contradicts this. She has both a Cadillac plan and Medicare.

BEFORE anyone goes off the edge thinking I'm taking shots at someone....I AM NOT...I

I truly am confused but to tell you the truth I do find medicare and all it's options and restrictions very confusing.

    Bookmark   November 15, 2013 at 11:31AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
Circus Peanut

I, too, am as always in admiration of Nancy's ability to remain unflappable on her moral line. She walks the walk she talks.

    Bookmark   November 15, 2013 at 11:35AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
demifloyd(8)

Still trashing posters on hot topics and talking about them

I wouldn't want to discuss the train wreck either if I were you people that support Obama blindly but how petty to trash people for disagreeing with you.

So much speculation and clluck cluck clucking and tsk task tsking
This place has become a gossiping little henhouse, intolerant of other views and devoid of responses to criticism of the Obama administration.

    Bookmark   November 15, 2013 at 11:56AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
mrskjun(9)

Ah no demi..they have responses...he is just wonderful, and if you don't think so, you are a racist, devoid of a moral compass, lack reading comprehension, a liar, and now an addict. I'm sure I'm missing quite a few, but you get my jist.

    Bookmark   November 15, 2013 at 12:00PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
adoptedbyhounds

"Sweeby is in the majority.?

What majority?

    Bookmark   November 15, 2013 at 12:17PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
duluthinbloomz4

Chase, you do not have to give up your private insurance when you become Medicare eligible. This came up before on one of the too numerous to go back through threads. The one where citywoman first mentioned her plight.

I'll speak for myself - since I know my situation best. I have employer sponsored health care insurance as a benefit of retirement. I used that between retiring at 55 and turning Medicare eligible at age 65. Medicare gave me Part A (hospitalization). I voluntarily enrolled into Part B (medical - dr's appointents, preventive screenings, etc.) and the premium is well worth it. My employer provided insurance is an additional policy which I use primarily for the creditable Rx coverage. Without that supplemental policy, I'd have to seek out another drug plan - one of the Medicare Part D plans, perhaps.

Not to muddy the water with needless explanation - but my employer provided insurance would have been "Cadillac" if I had stayed in Maryland. Here not so much. To make it pay, I'd have to travel down to Mpls/St. Paul where participating providers of all types are a dime a dozen.

Once Medicare eligible, health insurance becomes infinitely less labrynthine. Might sound complicated from the outside looking in, but it's not.

    Bookmark   November 15, 2013 at 12:26PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
mrskjun(9)

One of the 106 thousand out of 7 million needed maybe nik? You know who that sounds like a majority to right?

    Bookmark   November 15, 2013 at 12:28PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
jillinnj

I have never said Obama was wonderful. I do not think he is wonderful. I did think, and continue to think, he was the better choice given what our choices were.

I have never said the ACA is wonderful. Far from it. What I have said is it's a start. I would prefer single payer and I still hope we will get there one day in the not too distant future. But, at least Obama was willing to try and do something. Too bad the regressives in Congress (and here on HT) were not willing to have honest discussions about the best road to take. All they ever did and said was "No". From the moment Obama was elected, that is all they (and you) have said.

In fact, there is perhaps only 1 poster here that I can say thinks Obama is wonderful. The rest of the democrats/liberals/progressives here have often disagreed with him on many things.

But, we did all agree that he was the obvious choice to us given the option offered up by the other side. In fact, some didn't even vote for Obama! Go figure!

If you take that as personal insults and cluck clucking and tsk tsking, that's your problem. In my opinion, it's just you deflecting from the fact that you're caught up in the manufactured hysteria over the ACA.

As Chase said, none of you say what you want to see happen other than Obama failing and going back to doing nothing.

    Bookmark   November 15, 2013 at 12:29PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
chase_gw

Thanks Duluth.

So am I to understand that you can keep your private insurance for the medical expenses not covered by Medicare but that you must use Medicare for your "basic" coverage?

It may seem clear to you but I'm used to the same coverage from cradle to grave.......no changes ....except that after 65 prescription drugs are covered.

    Bookmark   November 15, 2013 at 1:17PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

So am I to understand that you can keep your private insurance for the medical expenses not covered by Medicare but that you must use Medicare for your "basic" coverage?

My comment is based on my experience pre-ACA. For an individual who is currently employed and covered by the company's group plan, the insurance that pays first (employer's or Medicare) depends on the number of employees in the group plan. I have had to respond to CMS questionnaires regarding employees over 65 years of age, and company coverage / number of employees. What struck me was the fact that if there was a problem and the private insurance carrier received reimbursements due Medicare, it was entirely *voluntary* for the carrier to make restitution. (If this had happened, it wasn't revealed to the employer.) Again, I don't know if this has changed.

    Bookmark   November 15, 2013 at 2:12PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
jerzeegirl(9)

The issue with Citywoman wasn't whether she could keep her private insurance (she could). She was complaining about the price of her new private insurance policy.

    Bookmark   November 15, 2013 at 2:27PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

I missed these earlier comments by Marshall. There are so insightful that they deserve to be repeated: The shrillness is masking deep fears about losing control of this country to a majority of "others" occupying a small part of East and West coasts and part of the upper middle west. There is no cure for this in open and frank discussions based on realities. The obvious cure for those afflicted with these fears is to disenfranchise as many "others" as possible so as to delay transition of national power to these "others."

In addition to the coastal "others" there is also the problem of the demographic doomsday facing those who fear losing the reins of power: A population more diverse in race, ethnicity, religion, and that has progressed beyond the culture wars prized by today's GOP.

    Bookmark   November 15, 2013 at 3:52PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
elvis

jill: "As Chase said, none of you say what you want to see happen other than Obama failing and going back to doing nothing."

You think that the president was doing nothing before? What do you mean by "doing nothing?" I don't understand why you would say that; that's interesting.

    Bookmark   November 15, 2013 at 8:18PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
chase_gw

......too bad you didn't understand the context Elvis.

    Bookmark   November 16, 2013 at 12:30AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
heri_cles

As Nancy pointed put, the intelligence concerning Saddam Husseins WMD came from the Bush administration who embellished old intelligence and propagandized it or even fabricated evidence of WMD.

Bush was the primary driving force seeking to invade Iraq. His administration and his party decided that they had to march lock step behind their single minded leader.

President (then Senator) Obama was not among those so easily convinced by the Bush propaganda and neither was I.

Here is a link that might be useful: Bush leading our country to War

    Bookmark   November 16, 2013 at 1:28AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
mylab123(z5NW)

Nancy, I agree - Marshall distilled the essence of the bitterness that has been going on in this forum into a nutshell.

Your added thoughts are, imo, right on target.

It is astounding to me that the conservatives, who are after all fellow Americans, are in what strikes me as an hysteria of glee over something they have convinced themselves will be harmful to this country.

Maybe this is finally the anxiously anticipated really great bad news they have been waiting ( praying?) for since President Obama won the first election?
For them, like all the other false starts which withered on the vine this will too, in time.

    Bookmark   November 16, 2013 at 1:28AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
adoptedbyhounds

"One of the 106 thousand out of 7 million needed maybe nik? You know who that sounds like a majority to right?"

Right. The ACA is working for Sweeby. If I were in her shoes, I would be delighted. She's getting better insurance and saving money at the same time! Yayyy!

The problem for Democrats is all the people getting very bad news. While Sweeby gets to keep an extra $200 a month, Countrywoman has to pay out and extra $400 a month. That's not going over well with the folks getting such big increases, and losing insurance they liked.

Everybody was supposed to be a winner. Democrats have not delivered what they said they would, and now they're having to deal with millions of angry voters who simply can't afford to keep them in office. The time to listen to constituents was before they passed this turkey, and as a party voted against the wishes of the electorate. Now they own this mess and they're caught in their own trap.

    Bookmark   November 16, 2013 at 8:17AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
chase_gw

Just for regular posters on this little forum the ACA is working for Sweeby, Labrea, David, Jodi and my niece. That's a significant percent.

it is also working for those here on Medicare that had their doughnut hole closed on Medicare,,,,,,,,,couple of rebates as I recall as well.

    Bookmark   November 16, 2013 at 8:46AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
maggie2094

I think most democrats and most Americans are keeping their eye on the prize and are remembering why we are doing this and knowing how hard this is and why it has not been done before. Every person needs health care. The idea that so e people want to choose crappy insurance is ludicrous. In the end this is about healthcare, not insurance.

  • There are 45 million people uninsured. With a $2.7-trillion annual tab for health care, Americans spend about twice as much per capita as other advanced nations, with no better health outcomes. Until slowed by the recession, those costs were increasing annually at a double-digit rate. Health insurance premiums doubled over the last decade. Medical bills are the leading contributor to personal bankruptcies.

People with pre-existing conditions were denied insurance. The amount insurers would spend for a policyholder's care, was routinely capped. Policyholders were dropped by their insurance carriers after they got sick, abandoned in their time of greatest need. Obamacare ended those insurance practices. The collapse or repeal of the law is not the answer to the nation's health care woes. Republicans should bring their ideas for improving the health care system to the table and genuinely engage with Democrats.
The public has been disillusioned by the recent government shutdown, flirtations with default, fiscal cliffs, and the botched debut of Obamacare. As a result the approval ratings of Congress and both parties are in the toilet.

Rather than remaining locked in a mutual death spiral, Democrats and Republicans should work on making life better for the American people.

Sadly, the republicans on this forum mirror their party as the rejoice in failure and even gloat at one senator looking haggard. Roll up your sleeves and spend as much time doing the work! Stop listening to the noise machine.

The heart of reform is care so please care!

But as the parties slug it out, we should keep their eyes on the prize: an affordable, accessible and sustainable health care system. That's what the nation desperately needs.

Here is a link that might be useful: Link

    Bookmark   November 16, 2013 at 8:52AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
demifloyd(8)

Posted by maggie2094 (My Page) on
Sat, Nov 16, 13 at 8:52

I think most democrats and most Americans are keeping their eye on the prize and are remembering why we are doing this and knowing how hard this is and why it has not been done before
*

Tell that the millions of people like Citywoman who are wondering how they're going to come up with extra HUNDREDS of dollars per month.

What do you think is going to happen to the economy, Maggie, when those dollars aren't going back into the economy?

But yea, keep your eye on that prize.

Turkey is more like it, as you said, Nik.

Unfortunately this fiasco is not just a serious political miscalculation, Obamacare is financially devastating families and individuals who already stressed in this economy and trying to do the right thing by working and paying their bills and saving a little.

As usual, the Democrats punish those with personal responsibility that are pulling the weight with their intrusive legislation.

The Democrat Party did this--ALL OF IT, and is ENTIRELY RESPONSIBLE for this MESS.

    Bookmark   November 16, 2013 at 9:12AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
sweeby

That my new health insurance under the ACA costs less than my pre-ACA health insurance is a nice little surprise. A happy bonus. Lagniappe.

The real meat is that it's a comprehensive health insurance policy that provides reliable health coverage. It provides financial security for my family in case one of us gets sick. We did not have that before. I tried and tried, but couldn't buy it.

I'm genuinely sorry that the price tag for Citywoman's policy went up. But odds are good that the higher price comes with a much more comprehensive benefits package that may well pay for itself it she ever gets really sick.

The trouble with the kinds of health insurance policies being discontinued is that they were lousy policies. The companies that offered them chose not to improve them to the point where they could qualify. They had loopholes, exclusions and limitations that did not protect their policyholders.

For example, my husband's old policy advertised 80/20 on lab tests. But what the small print said was that they'd cover 80% of [allowable] lab expenses [up to a maximum of $1,000 per day] after the patient's deductible [for lab expenses] was met. In practice, when he was admitted to the emergency room, this translated into thousands of dollars of uncovered expenses for us because: a) our hospital ER charged more than they deemed 'allowable', b) lab expenses for a middle-aged man with chest pain far exceeded $1,000 and those tests needed to be run in one day, and c) there was a whole new $2,500 deductible for lab expenses? (who knew?) At the end of the day, our so-called "health insurance" paid about $900 and we owed about $9,000.

Does anyone really think this policy should be allowed to survive? It was a sham, pure and simple. But after the chest pain incident, Hubby became 'uninsurable' with reputable carriers for 5 years; so dropping it wasn't an option.

My point is that BAD health insurance hurts not just the people who have it (astounding and unaffordable medical bills, delayed diagnoses, ineffective treatments), but also their heath care providers (who don't get paid reliably) and the taxpayers who have to pick up the slack.

BAD health insurance should not be allowed to be sold any more than unsafe cars or foods should be allowed to be sold. It's fraud.

Do I think everyone is entitled to equal health care?
Actually no. I think everyone is entitled to an acceptable minimum level of care and that those who can afford it should be able to buy better.

Those crappy policies people are screaming about generally fall below the acceptable minimum. The ACA guarantees that health policies meet or exceed those bare minimums, and assures that most people can afford them.

    Bookmark   November 16, 2013 at 9:45AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
demifloyd(8)

Do I think everyone is entitled to equal health care?
Actually no. I think everyone is entitled to an acceptable minimum level of care and that those who can afford it should be able to buy better.

*

I agree with you.

That's why I've always said people should have basic care, subsidized if they cannot pay for it themselves because of physical or mental limitations.

People with intelligence and time on their hands can make money to pay for their own health care.

Even if it means getting out and doing something they don't want to do.

    Bookmark   November 16, 2013 at 9:49AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
chase_gw

"That's why I've always said people should have basic care, subsidized if they cannot pay for it themselves because of physical or mental limitations.

People with intelligence and time on their hands can make money to pay for their own health care. "

That's actually a step back from where the States is today. Even more people would be in the ER's courtesy of the taxpayer.

    Bookmark   November 16, 2013 at 9:59AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

Sweeby, very well put. As a sole proprietor small businessman, I lived with that same experience of fraud-larded health insurance, most of the companies registered in Texas or Florida, for what that is worth. The insurance companies would pay pennies on the dollar while I and my workers would be left with the largest share of health care costs. Let one of my workers or family members run up a largish billing, the company would close the account for all, claiming that that kind of policy was being withdrawn! But no offers for replacement plans were forthcoming.

    Bookmark   November 16, 2013 at 9:59AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
maggie2094

Demi, you keep pushing this idea that ACA is some sort of welfare, which it is not. In fact, it was the personal mandate that republicans used to champion as personal responsibility.

The idea that 40 plus million Americans dint have insurance simply because they don't work hard enough or are not smart enough is despicable.

    Bookmark   November 16, 2013 at 10:20AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
jerzeegirl(9)

Countrywoman has to pay out and extra $400 a month.

Nonsense. What do you pay for Medicare, nik? City Woman can be covered at $104 per month. If only she would do the research.

    Bookmark   November 16, 2013 at 10:32AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
demifloyd(8)

They don't have health insurance because (a) it is too expensive
(b) even if it was not, most people prefer to have their lattes and cell phones and worry about health care if and when they get sick--we are an instant gratification society, and if you can get the government to pay for it--by showing up in ERs or getting on Medicaid or getting your income supplemented through housing and food stamp payments, you might be able to pay for a doctor.

The reason health care is so expensive is because of the government.

Medicare and medicare have forced the health care industry to charge more to pay for those that don't pay. When the government pays, it's rack it in city--unnecessary tests to rack in the gov'mint money, and unnecessary tests because of the lawyers that are ready to sue at the drop of the hat--and which Democrats have protected against legislation to rein in frivilous suits within the health care industry.

How any commercials have you seen for, "Have you taken ____ drug? Call this number you may be entitled to a settlement."

All of these factors, and no true competition, and when people don't actually pay the money out of their own pockets and question these outrageous bills, has set up for fraud every which way.

I remember before the government was involved in health care people could actually afford an operation and doctor visits.

I know we have more technology and unfortunately, more people that just are never going to pull their weight in society and with more treatments and procedures available, insist on access to them with someone else footing the bill.

It is an untenable situation and I don't think there is any good and acceptable solution.

But people should not depend on the government for their health care. I think that is wrong, because they are depending on their neighbor.

    Bookmark   November 16, 2013 at 10:35AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

most people prefer to have their lattes and cell phones and worry about health care if and when they get sick--we are an instant gratification society

Not true.

Misanthropic opinions reveal more about those who have them than any truth about "them" -- the people subjected to scorn.

My opinion.

    Bookmark   November 16, 2013 at 10:53AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
elvis

maggie: "But as the parties slug it out, we should keep their eyes on the prize: an affordable, accessible and sustainable health care system. That's what the nation desperately needs."

Maggie, I agree with this paragraph. The problem is that there is major disagreement about what "afffordable and sustainable" means to various subgroups. The issue is further complicated because of the emotional factor. Some are very disappointed, some are embarrassed, some are inappropriately gleeful. The gleeful are easy to pick on because they look silly chortling over and over again with variations of "I told you so."

These posters can't seem to help themselves because the same posters who chortled over the AHCA being passed and upheld can't shut up either. So on the cycle goes. Posters on both sides seem to thrive on this; nothing else to do I guess.

I notice that lily doesn't show up nearly as much as the rest of us, and I'm guessing she really does spend a lot of time at the gym, taking care of herself, as she has says she does. We should probably follow her example in this.

    Bookmark   November 16, 2013 at 10:58AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
adoptedbyhounds

So the ACA line today is that Countrywoman doesn't know what she's doing and that's why her bill is $400 more a month. If only we could be as smart as the liberals here!

They know EVERYTHING! Still trying to figure out how all these geniuses never saw that train coming...LOL!

    Bookmark   November 16, 2013 at 11:00AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
demifloyd(8)

If I had bragged about Obamacare that much I'd make myself scarce around here, too.

    Bookmark   November 16, 2013 at 11:05AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

[chortling] [[unbecoming]]

    Bookmark   November 16, 2013 at 11:06AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
david52_gw

Stopping the frivolous lawsuit is a red herring.

Well, California and Colorado have both, for several years now, had legislation that strictly limits punitive damages in health care lawsuits. Colorado has a $350,000 limit. So if the surgeon cuts out the wrong kidney, or that artificial joint turns out to be leaching chromium and it kills you, you can collect for what it costs to fix it up, actual losses, and a maximum of $350,000 as punitive for being so negligent or stupid as to cut out the wrong kidney.

Its made no difference at all in prices for malpractice, in prices for insurance, or for anything for that matter.

When you see the big class-action suits advertised on television, its worth while looking into whats behind it. Far more often then not, its some company selling a known-to-them-to-be-defective-and-deadly-to-you drug or device. I don't know why anyone would want to get rid of the ability to sue the jerks. See celibrex, Oxycondin.

    Bookmark   November 16, 2013 at 11:09AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
jillinnj

......too bad you didn't understand the context Elvis.

And I'm not about to do reading comprehension lessons for an adult on the internet. It's like dealing with a 10 year old, although both my kids by 10 could certainly understand context way better.

Nancy and Marshall - thank you for your posts. I just get sick to my stomach reading the dribble here about personal responsibility. I always feel better after your posts on this subject.

    Bookmark   November 16, 2013 at 11:17AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
labrea_gw

Just got my notice from COBRA the premium is gone up $70 a month.

Glad I'm leaving them come Jan 1

    Bookmark   November 16, 2013 at 11:23AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
evenshade(8)

I had promised I'd get back to everyone about the state of my healthcare insurance. My premiums were to increase 100% and my deductible would have increased to $5500. My state announced yesterday that I will be able to have my BC/BS policy reinstated as it was for 2014. I am grateful.

This whole program needs to be rethought and revamped. I think it should be rolled out gradually. Those people who need better healthcare access should have it now while the other 85% of us who are insured should be able to keep what we have if we want it.

Here is a link that might be useful: Blue Cross to reinstate canceled insurance policies as price increases spur outcry

    Bookmark   November 16, 2013 at 11:34AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

Jill, I am in favor of personal responsibility, especially when posting on boards such as this. Some people posting on HT are being terribly irresponsible in their remarks and intentions. The fears and phobias are apparent and rationality does not serve their purposes.

Then there is real life...

In a community of people sharing common interests and resources, personal responsibility is the insurance that people will look after themselves and take interest in the welfare of the larger community. We mostly do not live in that kind of community but one dominated by powerful special interests that increasingly make "personal responsibility" limited to bathing at least once a week or some such tokenism. It takes very strong personal and community resources to apply personal responsibility to the totality of one's life, to be successful.

Too many lack those kinds of resources and values and end up victimized by others applying "personal responsibility" in their own lives.

    Bookmark   November 16, 2013 at 11:56AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
maggie2094

Truth, Nancy

Evenshade, I am sadly not surprised you live in NC where the gov has blocked Medicaid expansion and is not on board with the things they should be doing under ACA.

it the point of dems chortling over ACA....I don't know any. Most I know support single payer which is 20% more cost effective to deliver and as in Medicare has a high approval rating.

Nobody said this would be easy, but it necessary and I am glad we fought for it and won.

We could throw up thread after thread of all the.benefits which far outweigh the small percentage of people the right is talking about, which most will be better off but can't accept it!

    Bookmark   November 16, 2013 at 12:06PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
elvis

•Posted by jillinnj (My Page) on Sat, Nov 16, 13 at 11:17

"......too bad you didn't understand the context Elvis.
And I'm not about to do reading comprehension lessons for an adult on the internet. It's like dealing with a 10 year old, although both my kids by 10 could certainly understand context way better."

Of course; they would have to, wouldn't they. That's fine; what you post to the world doesn't have to be plain or even correctly stated in a way to get your meaning across in a straightforward manner. As long as your 10 year olds understood what you wanted them to, you were all set. Of course, that was then and this is now, but no matter.

    Bookmark   November 16, 2013 at 12:08PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
epiphyticlvr

It's like dealing with a 10 year old, although both my kids by 10 could certainly understand context way better.

Which is why that poster and a few others have become SOB's. It doesn't pay to respond to the nonsense or the provocation. Many good, intellligent people have stopped posting because they are tired of this. Your post was crystal clear to the majority of people who read it.

It would be refreshing if some who have other opinions would respond iinstead of the usual who only use the rhetoric they are spoon fed and are motivated by their own bias' so there could be a real conversation. Inane questions and parsing others posts aren't that.

I too thank the posters who add genunine information to these threads and not the usual babble. They are the only reason I haven't given up this board entirely. There are still intelligent, informed people who post including Nancy, Marshall and others who I can and do learn from.

This post was edited by epiphyticlvr on Sat, Nov 16, 13 at 12:31

    Bookmark   November 16, 2013 at 12:11PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
evenshade(8)

maggie2094,
In the interest of full disclosure, I am not a supporter of the ACA in its current form. What a fiasco.

    Bookmark   November 16, 2013 at 12:18PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
adoptedbyhounds

Democrats own the law. Only half of the states thought expanding Medicaid was a good idea. The other half disagreed. With the bulk of newly signed up going on Medicaid, those states are going to be giving away what other people will have to pay for...along with overpriced policies the Democrats order them to purchase for themselves.

Evenshade is not looking for free stuff like Medicaid. Not everyone thinks like that. Obamacare is giving away health care for free at the same time it demands the middle class overpay for their own policies. What could possibly go wrong is a question Democrats never thought about. Now it's too late.

    Bookmark   November 17, 2013 at 11:46AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
david52_gw

Isn't it funny how the doctors and hospitals in the state w/o medicaid expansion are among the strongest voices in asking for the expansion?

Because …..once again from the top, boys! …. they're now stuck with the ER costs and indigent care costs, which in turn are passed on to the state gvts and insurance holders. In Texas, one of the states with the highest rates of uninsured, this tacks on over $2,000 a year to insurance premiums.

With the expansion, they stand to be reimbursed, saving the state gvt and the insurance holders lots of money.

    Bookmark   November 17, 2013 at 11:56AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

David, where's the profit in saving money? The health care scam is designed to extract as much profit for "beneficiaries" as is possible while governments will continue to underwrite health care for the poorer people. How many "middlemen" can we afford in this downgrading economy for 90% of the population?

    Bookmark   November 17, 2013 at 12:38PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
jillinnj

Oh, David, those darn facts keep getting in the way of ideology. I hate it when that happens ;-)

    Bookmark   November 17, 2013 at 2:18PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
chase_gw

All the BS aside........

Simply put , how can anyone...I mean anyone.....justify the physical, financial and emotional suffering of the poorly insured or the uninsured in the interest of exorbitant profits and salaries in the health care insurance business?

I don't get it and I'm glad I don't.

    Bookmark   November 17, 2013 at 2:29PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

But Chase, what you have described is "so American", profits AND high salaries being hallmarks of successful business. How can a loyal American be against such high values? (asked in high irony)

    Bookmark   November 17, 2013 at 2:50PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
chase_gw

Actually I am an avowed Capitalist....nothing wrong in my mind with high profits and salaries .

What is so very wrong to me is when those things are achieved trough the suffering and exploitation of others. It doesn't have to be that way.

    Bookmark   November 17, 2013 at 2:57PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

No, it doesn't have to be that way but that has been the hallmark of capitalism for much of its history... the stuff of history and novels and films and other art forms.

    Bookmark   November 17, 2013 at 3:23PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
elvis

"What is so very wrong to me is when those things are achieved trough the suffering and exploitation of others. It doesn't have to be that way."

It's not "just wrong to you;" it's probably the reason so many stories such as "A Christmas Carol" are always popular. Most people feel likewise.

    Bookmark   November 17, 2013 at 3:29PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
chase_gw

No arguing with you there Marshall...what you say is so true.

However, many, many prosperous, free, nations which are basically capitalistic...no matter Hay's mantra.....have managed to figure out a decent health care system for all their citizens.

I will never understand those who would deny another human being access to health care any more than I would education. Ones financial status , age or employment status should never dictate access to both those basic human rights.....at least not in my world.

    Bookmark   November 17, 2013 at 3:33PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
chase_gw

Most people may "feel" that way but they do nothing to support programmes that move in that direction..

Sorry I 'm not in the watch a movie and feel good camp.......

I am willing, and thankfully the vast majority of my countrymen, are willing to put our money where our mouth is to ensure health care for everyone....no matter their financial status, employment status or age.

It's not hard and it's not expensive and it's not an affront to ones freedoms...it's just plain right.

    Bookmark   November 17, 2013 at 3:58PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

Chase, as you have seen on these boards, the mantra from the conservatives has been that health care is a personal matter and not a human right and government should not be involved. Of course they'll hedge about regulations to save us from charlatans and snake-oil sales and cite laws requiring emergency hospitals to treat anyone with serious illnesses or injuries.

    Bookmark   November 17, 2013 at 4:04PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
evenshade(8)

I am willing, and thankfully the vast majority of my countrymen, are willing to put our money where our mouth is to ensure health care for everyone....no matter their financial status, employment status or age.

If you wouldn't mind telling us, chase....how much do you (or the average family) pay per month to support the medical care system there?

    Bookmark   November 17, 2013 at 4:17PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
chase_gw

i've posted it many times and am glad to do so again....

Each Province approaches their health care premiums in a different way. I can only speak for Ontario.

In Ontario every business with more than 50 employees pays a payroll tax. Generally they are OK with that because it is much cheaper for the corporations than paying for health insurance as an employee benefit.

Attached is the health care premium chart for residents of Ontario. The plan does not include prescription drugs but it does include all medical services from doctor visits to heart transplants with NO co pays or deductibles.

The premium is charged based on total income not on the number of family members . So no extra charges for children or aged parents and no charge for the unemployed or poor.

Not perfect but it works.....

    Bookmark   November 17, 2013 at 4:30PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
elvis

"...how much do you (or the average family) pay per month to support the medical care system there?"

I couldn't find a definitive answer, like what % of income goes to health care, for Canada, but did find that information about other countries, linked below.

"So, how exactly does the Canadian health care system work?

The Canadian health care system was built around the principle that all citizens will receive all "medically necessary and hospital physician services." To that end, each of Canada's 10 provinces and three territories finance and run a statewide health insurance program. There is no cost-sharing for the health care services guaranteed under federal law.

While Canadians are guaranteed access to hospital and physician services, it is up to each province to decide whether to cover "supplementary" benefits, like dental care and drug coverage. About two-thirds of Canadians take out private, supplemental insurance policies (or have an employer-sponsored plan) to cover these services.

While Canada is traditionally thought of as a publicly financed system, spending on these supplemental benefits means that 30 percent of health spending comes from private sources. One 2011 study found that nearly all Canadian spending on dental care came from non-government dollars, 60 percent covered by employer-sponsored plans and 35 percent paid out of pocket. Some Canadian legislators have made pushes to increase the scope of Canada's public health plan, to cover more services, but have so far proved unsuccessful."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/07/01/everything-you-ever-wanted-to-know-about-canadian-health-care-in-one-post/

Here is a link that might be useful: How 5 Capitalist Countries Do It

    Bookmark   November 17, 2013 at 5:05PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
chase_gw

Silly me I forgot the link that shows what we pay for health care premiums.....

As I said in my post above, this does not include prescriptions drugs , except for those over 65 or the poor, but it does cover every doctor appointment, diagnostic test and surgical procedures from broken arms to birthing babies to the most catastrophic of cancer care. With NO deductibles or co pays.

Here is a link that might be useful: Ontario Health Careinsurance premiums

    Bookmark   November 17, 2013 at 5:24PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
evenshade(8)

As I said in my post above, this does not include prescriptions drugs , except for those over 65 or the poor, but it does cover every doctor appointment, diagnostic test and surgical procedures from broken arms to birthing babies to the most catastrophic of cancer care. With NO deductibles or co pays.

Thanks for the reply. I could be like minded, too, if my premiums were this cheap.

If the United States could do the same thing, you wouldn't hear a peep out of me because it would be comparatively free instead of many hundreds of dollars per month. If I go with the BC/BS new policy rate to comply with the ACA (as I mentioned in another post, my state's BC/BS says they'll reinstate the old policy for a year but I'm waiting to see how that all shakes out), I would be paying 12 times more than what the people in Ontario pay. Can you see why the people who had their policies canceled are upset?

I'm assuming we either have many more people to support than Canada or that we're just doing a really bad job of it....or both.

    Bookmark   November 17, 2013 at 6:01PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
elvis

Thanks, chase, I think you posted that chart last week. It's my understanding that the health care costs are paid for mostly from the income tax on your earnings. What percentage of your earned income goes to health care, i.e., 48%, 39%, etc.?

    Bookmark   November 17, 2013 at 6:09PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
jerzeegirl(9)

I would be paying 12 times more than what the people in Ontario pay. Can you see why the people who had their policies canceled are upset?

There is something so fundamentally wrong with us having to pay 12 times more. Our medical care isn't 12 times better than anywhere!

Evenshade: If you wouldn't mind sharing, I would be interested in knowing what your old insurance was lacking to make it unacceptable for the ACA.

I just want to say (apropos of nothing) that it really bothers me that dental care is such an afterthought in the health insurance world. I think having good teeth is one of the keys to good health! Why isn't dental insurance part of a comprehensive health insurance policy.

    Bookmark   November 17, 2013 at 6:14PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
chase_gw

Elvis the chart is self explanatory. Pick an income and do the math.

Our premiums are based on income and paid via our income tax process.

What is on the chart is all that we pay...nothing more.

    Bookmark   November 17, 2013 at 6:15PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
chase_gw

Elvis, having given your question some thought I think you may mean how much of our federal budget goes to health care expenses.

About 10 % of the Federal budget , which is funded through both corporate and private taxes, goes to health care.

That is not to say it is 10 % of any one persons income tax but rather the percentage of the entire Federal budget.

This money is downloaded to the Provinces from the Federal government and is used for hospitals, subsidies for medical studies in universities, new equipment, research and the like.

Our personal healthcare is paid by the chart I attached up thread.

    Bookmark   November 17, 2013 at 6:34PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
elvis

Well, that's good to know; thanks.

    Bookmark   November 17, 2013 at 8:08PM
Sign Up to comment
More Discussions
Signature salute to Leonard Nimoy
Dead at 83; cause given as end stage COPD. Though not...
duluthinbloomz4
The President has vetoed the Keystone XL Pipeline Bill
Obama vetoes Keystone XL bill "Because this act...
momj47
And now Gov. Walker - is it "pile on the President" week?
Gov. Scott Walker: ‘I don't know’ whether Obama...
momj47
Boris Nemtsov Assasinated
Shot a few days before he was to lead a peace March!...
labrea_gw
What goes around ...
.....comes around "It wasn't supposed to be like...
ohiomom
People viewed this after searching for:
© 2015 Houzz Inc. Houzz® The new way to design your home™