Another flood

david52_gwNovember 12, 2012

Two large weather systems combined to produce some of Venice's worst flooding in decades. A large area of low pressure over the Mediterranean joined forces with high pressure over the Balkans (extending all the way into Russia) to push wind and water up the Adriatic Sea.

"The median level of the Adriatic Sea swelled to about 1.4 metres (1.5 yards) above normal - the highest in nearly two years - sending water from the lagoon into St. Mark's Square and many narrow alleyways," Reuters reported.

The converging atmospheric flow also produced torrential rains in parts of northern Italy.

"In Tuscany, 23 centimetres (9 inches) of rain fell in four hours, causing the Ricortola and Parmignola rivers to flood, according to the regional government," Reuters said.

Here is a link that might be useful: link

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ohiomom

"it is called weather"

Okay, that was snarky, the "devil made me do it" :)

Actually I was wondering if anyone follows the stuff going on around the planet or is the election and now post-election the only interest.

Guatemala has had two significant earthquakes, I believe there was another one off of the west coast of Canada ... there is a growing sinkhole in Louisiana, a minor earthquake in Kentucky (fracking?).

    Bookmark   November 12, 2012 at 1:56PM
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david52_gw

Its stuff like this: 9 inches of rain in 4 hours.

For us here in the high desert, thats close to our annual precipitation.

    Bookmark   November 12, 2012 at 2:01PM
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ohiomom

Meanwhile it is mid November and we have been having balmy 60+ degree days with a light rain today in the city by the lake ... my sweet allysum that I planted (in the landlords's planters out front) are still blooming :)

    Bookmark   November 12, 2012 at 2:04PM
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lily316(z5PA)

It's balmy here too , OM, at 67. My begonias on the porch are still blooming ,and my bees have been out for days.

    Bookmark   November 12, 2012 at 2:10PM
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kswl2

Climate change. When people in the northeast experienced the summer and winter extremes of weather in the space of seven days---a hurricane and a snowstorm--- that is indicative of climate change, as is the 9 inches of rain in four hours. That is an incredible amount of rain! Maybe this time Venice will really "marry the sea" in reality, and not just symbolically as during their annual ceremony dating back to Medici times that signifies their dependence on the water for commerce.

    Bookmark   November 12, 2012 at 2:53PM
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jillinnj

Here in central NJ it is 67 degrees. I think the average for this time of year is mid 40s. Very strange.

    Bookmark   November 12, 2012 at 2:56PM
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momj47(7A)

"Acqua Alta" as its known by the Venetians is a natural, regular occurrence in Venice. There are numerous factors that can play a role in creating the high waters that flood the city of Venice. The main culprit is the tidal flow of the Adriatic as it pushes water into the Lagoon. This tidal flow tends to be at its most influential at the beginning and end of the full moon cycle.
Although, typically, Venice if it does flood tends to flood around the changing of the seasons in the Fall and the Spring. November is normally the worst month for flooding in Venice, although, flooding is not uncommon through out the winter months. In 2004, we even had high water flooding the streets of Venice in July. The worst was 1966.

It's been going on since time immemorial, but wasn't a problem until people settled the area. Rising sea levels and sinking soil in the lagoons contribute to the flooding.

    Bookmark   November 12, 2012 at 3:11PM
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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

And unseasonal freeze warnings in Southern California...

and we're weather sissies (except for the hardy Marshall).

    Bookmark   November 12, 2012 at 3:14PM
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althea_gw

We had our first light snow sometime early this morning. Last night there were 2 tornadoes in the southern suburbs, only the second time MN has had a tornado in Nov.

Some Venetians pictured seem to be enjoying the flood.

    Bookmark   November 12, 2012 at 3:52PM
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rob333

AAHHHH, you said a four letter word althea. s-n-o-w. (wink, wink)

David, this is more of that global warming thing. The close folks are to the ice caps, well, they'll be first. Poeple will start listening when it gets to be closer and closer. Nah. I doubt it. (remember, I don't think it's humans doing the global warming, but that doesn't mean it isn't happening). Who'll be next? Who else is on the same latitude as Venice? Are they suffering similarly? I'd like to see those stats. More severe weather would be enough of a parameter. Of course, we all think everywhere is suffering worse weather.

    Bookmark   November 12, 2012 at 4:05PM
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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Some Venetians pictured seem to be enjoying the flood.

Turisti.

    Bookmark   November 12, 2012 at 4:13PM
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rob333

yes, incredibly turisti! Gotta wonder if they were American. I say that as a fellow American.

    Bookmark   November 12, 2012 at 4:53PM
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kswl2

Momj, as one who has been to Venice over the years, I can tell you without doubt that the flooding has become worse since the 1970s when I first visited. Nine inches is about one third of the average rainfall for the entire month of November--- and it fell in four hours. This is not the storm of 1966 but a pervasive rise in the flood levels year round.

...The mean water level (calculated on the basis of the daily maxima and minima over twelve months) is now at least 25cm above the zero reference level. This means that it is frequently at or above what is officially considered a very high tide (i.e. 80cm above reference zero), the point at which chronic damage to the building fabric is exacerbated. 2010 was the worst year since records began for high tides: looking at figures for every year since 2000 the average number of times the water level went above 80cm is 92 times a year, which is 13% of all tide peaks and about 232 hours per year?. The variability is noteworthy: in 2007, this occurred only 59 times.

Experts are also now beginning to arrive at estimates of what future sea level rise caused by climate change will mean for Venice (qv; The Ecological Implications of Climate Change on the Venice Lagoon Unesco, Venice, 26-27 May 2011) and the most conservative figure is a rise in the mean water level relative to the city of 50cm by 2100�but it may well be considerably higher. At 50cm, it would be at the level of what is considered today a very high tide. The barriers would have to close almost daily should everything else remain unchanged, and buildings would crumble at an even faster rate.

See www.veniceinperil.org for more about the subject. (Climate change doubters don't bother as no amount of fact will be convincing.)

    Bookmark   November 12, 2012 at 4:54PM
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hamiltongardener(CAN 6a)

Speaking of tourists enjoying a flood...

I heard on the radio this morning that there are actually "disaster tourists" going to the regions hit hard by Sandy to gawk and take pictures. And that the locals are getting annoyed by them.

    Bookmark   November 12, 2012 at 4:56PM
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lily316(z5PA)

That is just so wrong...people driving in the damaged hurricane areas to gawk. Tell them to get out of their cars and HELP!!

    Bookmark   November 12, 2012 at 5:04PM
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ohiomom

What about the "bus tours" down in New Orleans of the 9th ward?

    Bookmark   November 12, 2012 at 5:18PM
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jodik_gw

Yeah... it's only weather... what's to worry about? ;-)

Why some people are so interested in rubbernecking the blood, gore, suffrage, and other ills of their fellow human beings is beyond me... maybe it's ingrained behavior from years and years of media input straight to the cranial cavity. I don't really know.

    Bookmark   November 12, 2012 at 6:26PM
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althea_gw

Sorry Rob. It has already melted.

Turisti!

Are natural disaster tours the next logical step after reality tv?

    Bookmark   November 12, 2012 at 7:25PM
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pnbrown

Average Venetian precip for November is 27 inches? That does't seem right.

    Bookmark   November 12, 2012 at 8:18PM
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kswl2

PNbrown, I beg your pardon, I did not even notice that the decimal was missing! That's 2.7 inches, and the amount that fell in four hours was more than three times the average November rain! Sorry, I am not deliberately diseminating false information!

    Bookmark   November 12, 2012 at 10:11PM
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elvis

Warm out east? Get ready. It was 56 up here yesterday; some flooding. Woke up to snow and 23F.

Good thing I pulled the broccoli yesterday.

    Bookmark   November 13, 2012 at 12:12AM
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lily316(z5PA)

It almost hit 70 here today, and now it's raining and 45.

    Bookmark   November 13, 2012 at 2:17AM
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jodik_gw

"Are natural disaster tours the next logical step after reality tv?"

Gawd, I hope not.

    Bookmark   November 13, 2012 at 3:21AM
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jerzeegirl(9)

It happened in Florence in 1966. I went there for the first time three years later and the rooms still smelled moldy and waterlogged. It was a total disaster for the city's art; restorers from around the world were called on to come to Florence to help. Some of the buildings still have marks indicating where the water reached - which was astonishingly high.

Here are some pictures of the flood and, if you can understand it, you might enjoy the song too which was a big hit for Riccardo Marasco.

Here is a link that might be useful: L'Alluvione

    Bookmark   November 13, 2012 at 7:10AM
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ohiomom

34 degrees currently ... it was fun while it lasted. Moving the truck this morn I saw a daisy in bloom, time for it to take a winter's nap.

    Bookmark   November 13, 2012 at 7:56AM
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chase_gw

We were in Venice last year, high tide in Piazza San Marco is bad enough!

I simply cannot imagine the devastation this flooding will cause. One really has to marvel at the fact Venice has survived as well as it has but how much longer is another question.

Sunday it was 16 C here today it's -2 C and snowing : (

    Bookmark   November 13, 2012 at 8:06AM
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kswl2

Jerzee, you are missing the point.

    Bookmark   November 13, 2012 at 8:56AM
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jerzeegirl(9)

That's possible since I am not quite sure what the point is. Venice was built in a marsh and the buildings sit on wooden piles. Supposedly the city is sinking. Flood tides are common in Venice so I don't think that pointing to Venice's plight is necessarily an indication of climate change as much as it is an indication that it was a crazy place to build a city!

The flood in Florence was historical. No one imagined it could happen. Maybe it shows that climate change has been happening a long, long time but now we can see a pattern.

    Bookmark   November 13, 2012 at 10:03AM
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vgkg(Z-7)

ok, that's enough of a tipping point........#92

    Bookmark   November 13, 2012 at 10:06AM
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david52_gw

Didn't Italy spend a fortune on sea gates to protect Venice? Or did this storm just dump water behind the gates?

    Bookmark   November 13, 2012 at 10:16AM
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ohiomom

it is an indication that it was a crazy place to build a city!

Which is the problem we face here also, I am sorry that people lose their homes/livelihood in these disasters but it is time to "think" about where we build/live. These "storms of the century" will continue to be annual (or more) events, how many times do you rebuild in the same place?

2 cents

    Bookmark   November 13, 2012 at 10:25AM
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marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

Years ago I watched a special program on the history of Venice and the fact that the original buildings have been raised over the centuries by abandoning lower floor(s) and building up. Will the city do the same thing? Doubtful because many of the historic buildings are not owned by superwealthy people. The city is a tourist mecca, not home to a thriving city.

    Bookmark   November 13, 2012 at 10:51AM
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david52_gw

Rebuilding in these places may not be feasible much longer, the Federal Flood Insurance thing is still broke from Katrina.

Here is a link that might be useful: link

    Bookmark   November 13, 2012 at 10:52AM
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kswl2

I guess you did not read this:

"the most conservative figure is a rise in the mean water level relative to the city of 50cm by 2100 but it may well be considerably higher. At 50cm, it would be at the level of what is considered today a very high tide. The barriers would have to close almost daily should everything else remain unchanged, and buildings would crumble at an even faster rate."

The above means that by 2100, the most conservative estimate of water level rise due to climate change will put the daily, "normal" tides at the level that is considered very high today.

    Bookmark   November 13, 2012 at 1:34PM
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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Didn't Italy spend a fortune on sea gates to protect Venice?

Four or five years ago the work was in progress. The local politicos were complaining that it was a waste of euros on a project that benefited a contractor with ties to Berlusconi, and would do little to actually protect the city. Local politicos belonged to the opposition party, but from what I know of Berlusconi and his patronage, I tend to believe the claims of the Venetians.

The city is a tourist mecca, not home to a thriving city.

The resident population is decreasing. The government is on the hook for the maintenance of the historic buildings as most are not privately owned. And all the churches as well. Plus the infrastructure.

    Bookmark   November 13, 2012 at 1:50PM
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jodik_gw

Unfortunately, Ohiomom, there really isn't a place that doesn't experience some kind of natural disaster... as safe as we think we are here in the Midwest, there are tornadoes, wicked storms, flooding in some areas, and the ever present threat of a giant earthquake as the whole Mississippi River area is giant fault line... there just hasn't been an earthquake here for a very long time... one that did any damage, that is.

But I don't think it's something one can really get away from. This is why it's so very important that we take care of our planet.

    Bookmark   November 13, 2012 at 2:34PM
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