was a right wing whack job. Who could've predicted that would happen?
What took you so long?
I just read it.
Wondered where everyone was.
One more mad male.
Probably too many bowls of fruitloops in superman underwear with no parental attention.
I thought he was anti government..sort of like Bill Ayres, but then I thought maybe he was just a nut...but then...oh well.
Posted by mrskjun 9 (My Page) on
Sat, Nov 2, 13 at 18:30
Nah, he hasn't hosted Barack Obama in his home yet.
what skin color was the victim? Did ya check on that?
I've been getting my breaking news increasingly from HT; maybe I need to get out more...
At least this one's alive; maybe we'll get some insight.
This is the gist of what was in his note:
"Black, white, yellow, brown, I don't discriminate," the note read, according to a paraphrase by a law enforcement official briefed on the investigation. The official spoke on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak publicly.
The suspect's screed also mentioned "fiat currency" and "NWO," possible references to the New World Order, a conspiracy theory that foresees a totalitarian one-world government.
I thought he was anti government..sort of like Bill Ayres
The radicalization of youth happened because the government was forcing young people via the Draft to head into a meat grinder and a death trap, a place on the other side of the globe from which we were seeing dozens of our young teens and twenties kids being shipped home in body bags.
To compare that catastrophe with nut jobs, skin heads, and New World Order types is beyond belief, but I guess for an Obama hater, it is a standard Fox News talking point.
You mean this guy heri?
Bill Ayers, whose relationship with President Obama was the subject of much intrigue during Obama's 2008 presidential campaign, now says the president should be tried for war crimes.
Ayers, the former Weather Underground member and University of Illinois at Chicago professor, told Real Clear Politics that Obama is "absolutely" engaged in terrorist activity by using drones and "absolutely" should be tried for war crimes.
Here is a link that might be useful: link
•Posted by mrskjun 9 (My Page) on
Sun, Nov 3, 13 at 6:54
You mean this guy heri?
Bill Ayers, whose relationship with President Obama was the subject of much intrigue during Obama's 2008 presidential campaign, now says the president should be tried for war crimes. "
What does Bill Ayres have to do with this?
This is why I don't frequent this forum anymore.
At least as much as "right wing whack job".
You and me both elly ... and the next time some of the liberals on here are accused of "pack mentality" I suggest you read the first 5 posts of this thread.
Point out those personal attacks om?
MrsK perhaps you could re-read what I said. Please point out to me where I said "personal attacks"? I said Pack Mentality ... sometimes the truth hurts, but it is still the truth. I have seen it played out by both sides here on HT and have sometimes felt drawn into it .... which is why I post seldom anymore.
Of course a lot of it starts with the title of an OP .. but it does not mean we all have to jump on the bandwagon does it?
Lock up all the men!
"What took you so long"
(AKA invitation to a broken bottle fight)
The invitation was extended at the gate. Noone thought "right wing whack job" would ruffle any feathers?
You are absolutely correct hosta, which is why I pointed out that a lot of these threads disinegrate (sp?) from the beginning.
Me? I am working on not becoming part of a pack :)
om, maybe you should read some of the comments of the "pack mentality". There is no correlation. And I'm really surprised that you don't see the difference.
"Me? I am working on not becoming part of a pack :)"
I will add that I honestly don't see the pack mentality on this thread - just several posters taking umbrage to the manner in which the OP was phrased.
will add that I honestly don't see the pack mentality on this thread - just several posters taking umbrage to the manner in which the OP was phrased.
That is exactly the way I see it.
Posted by jlhug 6 (My Page) on
Sun, Nov 3, 13 at 9:10
Dish it out but can't take it is how I see it.
Double standard is how I see it.
This is the dopiest thread in a long time. The guy kills at least one person and this nutty place turns into talk about right wing crazies and Bill Ayres. What compassion and insight.
•Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on Sun, Nov 3, 13 at 7:29
"You and me both elly ... and the next time some of the liberals on here are accused of "pack mentality" I suggest you read the first 5 posts of this thread."
Okay; this will make doing so convenient:
OP: "Posted by lily316 z5PA (My Page) on Sat, Nov 2, 13 at 18:03
1) mrs: What took you so long?
2) lily: I just read it.
3) demi: Wondered where everyone was. One more mad male. Probably too many bowls of fruitloops in superman underwear with no parental attention
5) demi: Nah, he hasn't hosted Barack Obama in his home yet.
So where is the "pack mentality?"
2 posters, demi & mrs, responded to lily's challenge. Tell me that wasn't a challenge and I've got a bridge to nowhere to sell ya.
So what, Elivs? This thread is so third-grade. No one is required to answer a "challenge," and all those, including the OP, who want to turn this tragedy into a political tennis match are literally ridiculous.
IMO you're right, pidge.
I guess instead of a right wing whack job, I should have described him as a poor misunderstood follower of Glenn Beck with a manifesto in his pocket and was really a good Christian person at heart.
I started this thread because I think there are a lot of these home grown terrorists (and this guy is one of them ) and we have more to fear from them, than Al Qaeda. They are way too hard to track , and since they are "normal" looking Americans and not swarthy mid easterners, they can blend in.
I was so glad the NYC marathon went well because my daughter plans on running Boston again since she was a block away from the bombs last spring and wants to show solidarity. Boston Strong!
Love that you righties castigated Bill Ayers as Obama's best friend when they were neighbors( though he was in kindergarten when Ayers was protesting in the 60's). Now since Ayers is criticizing Obama, is he your new best friend?
Thanks Pidge, spot on.
That wasn't a "challenge". It was a question albeit in an op and one that was intended to provoke. A challenge is when one is told to prove something or find something.
There is always the choice to ignore posts like that instead they CHOSE to respond and add their own provocation with the Ayers nonsense. If they didn't this thread could have fallen off the board quickly as it should have.
They foolishly took the bait and added to the nonsense.
"There is always the choice to ignore posts like that instead they CHOSE to respond and add their own provocation with the Ayers nonsense. If they didn't this thread could have fallen off the board quickly as it should have.
They foolishly took the bait and added to the nonsense."
Absolutely. Anyone could see that this is utter BS: "I started this thread because I think there are a lot of these home grown terrorists ..." blah blah blah.
But they fell for it. Where are those words from Marshall about adolescents?
Thank you for the reality check/commonsense observations, epi.
Lily, you might have expressed a scintilla of concern for the guy who was shot instead of jumping in with a political jab before his body was cold.
But they fell for it. Where are those words from Marshall about adolescents?
I didn't fall for anything, Elvis, and I am betting neither did mrskjun.
Sometimes you're just in the mood to hand back what is slung, sometimes you're not.
Thanks for playing, though.
Check with the peanut gallery for your consolation prize.
You did fall for it, demi, led by mrsk. Play any game you want, but you can't slide out of this one no matter how many times you wiggle.
Could it be possible for even one moment to recall that a man was shot to death by someone who was so eager to have him dead that when the shooter saw he was still moving that he returned to the man and shot him more times to make sure he was really, really dead?
Lily, demi, mrsk: you make me sick.
Posted by pidge z6PA (My Page) on
Sun, Nov 3, 13 at 16:56
I'm so sorry of all the things you have read on this forum that this is what makes you sick.
To suggest that I have a need to "slide" or "wiggle" in or out of anything suggests that I am affected by what you or others here think about what I post.
You are sadly mistaken.
Here--here's an emesis basin.
What is sickening to me is that some guy killed people and Lily turned it into a free for all against the right.
A little levity helps to alleviate such silliness.
I guess this type of humor isn't your forte.
This post was edited by demifloyd on Sun, Nov 3, 13 at 17:03
What's so funny about the killing of someone who was just doing his job?
Nothing is funny about the death.
The levity was in response to Lily's attempt to politicize the death.
The levity was in response to Lily's attempt to politicize the death
There is anothing humorous about either or adding your own partisan nonsense to the mix.
As others have noted, this thread is a perfect example of why many have cut back or stopped participating on this board. Your antics aren't amusing nor do they add anything of sustance to discussions except to provide some personal entertainment. You and your cohorts will seize any opportunity to insert nonsense and irrelevant quips into threads simply to disparage Obama or others you don't like. Not interesting to most to put it mildly.
pidge, you are absolutely right...should not have allowed myself to be baited. But I did...I'm human.
om, the pack did arrive.
ROTF pot kettle Epi
Practice that insipid lecture in the mirror.
Trying to stir the pot once again Demi but sorry to disappoint you, I am not playing.
Contrary to your false claims I don't play the games you play and have been avoiding partipating in most threads of late because the nonsense has grown old. I don't start threads to create turmoil or call out other posters, defend the indefensible, or insert partisan carp to detract from discussions. Nor do I feign victimhood at the drop of a hat. I don't need the attention like some. Move on to someone else to play your silly games with.
This post was edited by epiphyticlvr on Sun, Nov 3, 13 at 20:08
You played the game you addressed me
Look in the mirror chum
I responded to your post that there was any levity in the death of a person.. That is what one does on a message board. That is not a game. Provocation and what you have posted on this thread is including addressing me as "chum"..
This post was edited by epiphyticlvr on Sun, Nov 3, 13 at 21:53
Pidge, what gives you the right to say I was not sympathetic to the widow and family of that beloved father who was shot and shot again by the killer? What in the world would make you say something so meaningless? I got tears in my eyes watching his wife give a statement. Don't presume to know how I feel.My heart goes out to that family. I'm just glad he was stopped because he could have killed many more.
I am so sick of these random workday shootings. Since I recall some conservatives here pointed out different times about the politics of killers...saying the navy shooter voted for Obama. Most of the random shooters aren't particularly political, but this guy was. This thread was to say how dangerous that element of society is. Skinheads,KKK, the homegrown terrorists who would like to overthrow the government. There are many groups out there. Ask the Secret Service.
I never raised Bill Ayers or quipped about whether this killer hosted Barack Obama in his home.
I am not defending Bill Ayers but if you think the violence during the Vietnam era is equivalent to this New World Order nonsense, you are crazy. The anti-War movement was not partisan and it continued through both Democratic and Republican administrations.
Like Lily, I am sick of these shootings. And I am concerned about Right Wing wack jobs (What else do you call the NWO?) easily gaining weapons, like the .223 caliber assault rifle he used. The killer mentioned in a letter found on him how easy it was for him to get that assault rifle. When they searched his duffel bag after the shooting they found 5 30 round clips and hundreds of additional rounds in a box.
This was so tragic but it could have been a lot worse.
I did not say that you were unsympathetic, Lily, but you never implied that you were. This thread started with a comment about right wing crazies, not a word in sympathy with the man who was brutally murdered. I can only follow what appear to have been your priorities.
I can understand why we despise a murderer, but there is no excuse to connect other innocent people to this crime.
By all means lets talk about what lily should have posted and what everyone thinks about her because of what she did not choose to post about.
This little game is inane
To accuse lily mrskjun me or anyone of not caring about people because we discussed other and related aspects of the shooting is childish play.
What is this always announcing character and personal judgments about posters giving their opinion and for what they do not discuss?
Petty and irrelevant.
Thanks, mrsk, for your reply. Very generous of you.
Pidge, I did not feel it was necessary to give a long diatribe about the death of the TSA agent and the wounding of others. I was horrified it happened and so sad for the family as I was for Aurora , VA tech, Gabby Gifford's wounding and the deaths of those around her, the recent killings at the Navy building, and the saddest of all(and they all are) are the Newtown 26 children and teachers. I grieve for them all.
I was going out and left that thread to a brief statement. It in no way says anything about anyone on HT, and I will always use the term, rightwing whack job, in describing a despicable nut case like this killer.
Such a red herring. Eyes off the curtain so we don't have to talk about the thousands of innocents murdered due to the incredibly easy access to guns.
Lily, I am generally not critical of you because I share many of your political beliefs. But in this case I did feel that you were throwing red meat to the conservatives who will take any and every opportunity to play political games no matter what the circumstances. I have offended you and for that I am sorry, but the thread did not begin in a way that reflected your real concerns.
"rightwing whack job" killed one man.
How many deaths do you think we can attribute to just these "leftwing whack jobs"?
While you're counting, I'll see if I can't find a few more.
why can't he just be a "nutjob"? Not that I even condone that. I cringe hearing/saying it. It can't be correct.
Why it must forever be "rightwing", is beyond my understanding. I don't think I'm dumb? But how we can tell anyone's reasons for doing what they do, and is relatable to political affiliation is beyond my understanding. Maybe I am dumb. I think people are people. All humans have hurt in their lives. Some act on their hurt. And I bet some are left leaning, but even then, it didn't prompt them to act on their hurt. Why drag that into anything?
Pidge, I accept your apology. I just was surprised by your comment, because I think we are in general agreement about most political views.
Hay..I agree that these lefties are as despicable as the rightwing ones.
Rob , the left certainly has it's share of whack jobs too. I am just afraid these current crazies are getting all this propaganda off the web and from people like Beck, Hannity, Limbaugh , Savage,Levin. New World Order and such propaganda can manipulate disgruntled young men living in their mother's basements to do evil to make a name for themselves.
Well, according to a speech by Joe Biden today, we are divided into two groups. That would be mainstream, (democrats) and extremists (republicans), so it should be no surprise that lily would make an OP like she did. According to this democrat administration, republicans are, Extortionists and Terrorists, Saboteurs, Anarchists, Squealing political pigs, Hostage-takers, Arsonists, and Murderers.
So for every person out there that is standing on the mental cliff, there is nothing like a little shove. I have no way of knowing what the political affiliation of the LAX shooter is, but I do know that this administration is alienating an entire and large group of people. Even the most sane is disgusted by the rhetoric and lack of bipartisanship in Washington. Those that are living on the edge react in ways that normal people don't. And the victims and their families are paying the price
How do you know they're getting all their propaganda from anyplace? Much less which sources? That's the part that has me confounded. Maybe they're just paranoid schiz and they didn't need much of anything to get them to where they are, with NO political affiliation. It maybe he wanted a free range chicken at the store, and it set him off they were out. All I've seen is that he was trying to "instill fear into traitors' minds" (mostly paraphrasing, but his words, instill and traitor). The FBI being the traitors. How does one come to the conclusion of left/right leaning from that? Why did he think that?
Is it any more rational than the lady who drove to the White House because she was sure Barak Obama was stalking her. What? Why would anyone think that? They hurt and why they pick whom they pick to hurt back typically makes little sense. How you can pick out their affiliations when they don't even identify with anyone else's reality, is puzzling.
Sorry, meant to clip the article I saw:
"There had been no indication the 23-year-old was struggling, or that he may have harbored anti-government sentiments, Cummings said. "We don't really know what happened out West," he said. "We don't know where he got his ideas or where that came from."
Ciancia, who moved to Los Angeles about 18 months ago, was carrying a signed, handwritten note in his duffel bag referring to TSA officials that said he wanted to "instill fear into their traitorous minds," according to the FBI."
This post was edited by rob333 on Mon, Nov 4, 13 at 14:42
The women shot in DC clearly had mental issues and was off her meds , and there was not a political motive. The Gifford shooting was political as was this one. For Pete's sake, he had a manifesto in his pocket about the New World Order. Who is the biggest propagator of this but the insane Glenn Beck?
MrsK..I would disagree with Biden. We are divided into three groups, the Democrats, Republicans, and the Tealiban.
I was disturbed too, by the manner and wording in which this topic was offered for discussion Lily. I believe that the wording and 'attitude' can completely derail threads, making them nothing more than poop flinging free for alls, unworthy of discussion because they end up as personal insult flinging threads between only a few members.
"Attitude" in posting in this forum is much like describing porn. Hard to describe but recognized by all, despite often furious protests to the contrary. Most are guilty, most certainly myself.
Lily, I think it is a mistake to attempt to ascribe a nut job's violent actions as an unintended result of either political party's message or style of message, as much as I know you deeply believe it to be.
Without the mental health disconnect already in place before the violence takes place, the conservative or liberal wont commit such violent acts.
If a thread is desired to discuss how each party can reform its practices, messages etc to attempt to discourage violence, I think that might work, depending on a whole lot - probably too much.
My personal opinion is that it would end up as another poop flinging free for all because it would probably be denied that any changes would be worthy of discussion - even when specific incidences could be offered up as exhibit 1 "what a bad idea" in the thread. I can think of one already which was most furiously debated in hot topics after terrible violence with grave injury and death took place. Many pointed furious fingers, many furiously jumped to defense and the dead and injured still remained dead and disfigured. No changes that I ever noticed took place.
Until the tone and attitude of the members of hot topics forum changes, this will be a place for one upmanship and people behaving badly, all in order to 'win'. Along with a place to have fun by stirring the pot and then declaring ones self to be a victim - all done imo, out of boredom.
The best thing anyone can do here to lower the level of animosity is to be careful that when the pot is stirred, individuals who are sick of it all make darn sure they arent one of the spoons in the pot. along with practicing SOB as often as is possible. Every snark doesnt require a response - to me, the best response is none. It leaves the snarker out there for everyone to make the mental note of.
That way, awful or mean statements stand stark, without additional comment allowing for further softening or refinement. Everything floating to the top of the pot becomes easily identifiable. And in time, things will perhaps change, perhaps out of personal shame, embarrassment or best of all, an actual desire for a better discussion forum by the vast majority.
If enough of us stop trying to one-up the other half of the forum members and, especially, pay particular attention to how we choose to word what we say in here, I really believe it possible that this forum might begin to have interesting and mature discussions.
Each of us are capable of at least great effort on a regular basis, understanding that there will be some fails along the way.
"I do know that this administration is alienating an entire and large group of people. "
The entire and large group you refer to chose to fight Obama on every front from day one, so save it. You hated this guy to the bone from day one. You must really be seething after he trounced Romney.
How many deaths do you think we can attribute to just these "leftwing whack jobs"?
Castro.Lenin Stalin MaoPol Pot
That is a false analogy - just like the comparison of the Vietnam era anti-War movement to the current Right Wing or the New World Order. Why not throw Hitler in while you are at it?
I guess it is too easy to deflect the topic of easy access to assault rifles and 30 cartridge magazines by the likes of this kid, Jared Loughner, and Adam Lanza.
Some of us see a deadly pattern and want to do whatever we can to break it. That is what Lily was concerned about, not offending the sensibilities of Right Wingers or anyone else on this message board. Yes we are frustrated and " right wing whack job" is generous in the context of the bloody massacres we have seen.
New World Order? That's a idea whose roots were tossed out by Woodrow Wilson, a democrat. Guess your "nut" is left leaning. Oh well. I am kidding about your nut, but it is a leftist idea. Well, it at least started with Wilson. I suppose there will always be someone who wants a new world order.
I get your point Heri, and Lily's too. Almost all of us know that this is how you would probably think about this subject, just as we could reasonably reach the conclusion that some specific posters here feel Obama has been a failure in his presidency, and thought so within 6 months of his first term, if not much sooner.
What do they accomplish with those threads they have repeatedly made regarding their insistence that he is a failure? Do they convince anyone by their postings - anyone not already in agreement with them in the first place? What they believe is as much truth to them as how you and Lily and anyone agreeing with you both feel this is truth to you both.
So - what was accomplished? What was left to be discussed?
I would like to see the forum become a place where ideas can be rationally discussed without rude remarks or combative stances taken from right from the outset of the thread.
You ( generic 'you' intended) will never convince anyone who might agree with a single point in your take on the matter if you word yourself so obnoxiously that nobody can see past that. So, you might as well not have posted because you devalued everything about your position rather than inspiring anyone to pause to consider a valid point you might have made.
You could be 100% provably correct but make no headway because of your delivery. If you ( again, generically speaking) offer remarks in here and the purpose of making the effort is to perhaps inspire a change of thinking or perception, I would believe that the wording and tone you employ is probably as important to this group as is the idea you are trying to convey.
Unless it's either too late for any real discussion on most threads with this whole bunch - or unless Im missing that for the most part, most everyone likes how everyone likes the manner of participation thus far just fine- an idea which honestly never occurred to me until just now.
mylab, I would also like this place to be as you suggest. Everytime I read a post like yours I resolve to be more reasonable, less thin-skinned. Hope I can manage it.
I would also like this place to be as you suggest
Pidge, I agree. Ufortunately some people have only one agenda and until the majority of posters voice their displeasure with this type of op, on both sides, it isn't going to happen.
Great post, Mylab. Too many times someone's very good point gets lost in the vitrol. I will try to be less confrontational in my posts.
There is nothing vitriolic in characterizing this murderer and a host of others like him as right wing wack jobs because the fact is, that is precisely what they are. Actually to be more precise, they are right wing wack jobs with assault weapons.
The LAX killer is linked with the Patriot movement* which has been a concern of watch groups like the Southern Poverty Law Center for a while. How else would you describe that grouo other than Right Wing wacko?
* From Wikipedia:
The patriot movement is a collection of various conservative, independent, largely rural, small-government, social movements in the United States that include organized militia members, tax protesters, sovereign or state citizens, quasi-Christian apocalypticists, or combinations thereof. Adherents describe the movement as centered on a belief that individual liberties are in jeopardy due to unconstitutional actions taken by elected government officials, appointed bureaucrats, and some special interest groups outside of government, to illegally accumulate power. Journalists and researchers have associated the patriot movement with the right-wing militia movement and some in the movement with illegal acts of violence."
Here is a link that might be useful: The Year in Hate and Extremism
Count me in that camp mylab. It's why I'm gone from here so often; it's just too hard to watch. I've voiced my disagreement to both sides, and I'm not getting through, but my conscience is clear.
Enjoy your day (truly mean this) to everyone!
You guys make me blush! Its hard I know, especially when it becomes between you and a couple in a war of words.
Im with Rob- everyone, enjoy your day!
I'm game, too. This site has, believe it or not, taught me a lot about self expression, but more importantly, listening. I am thankful to have found HT and said "what's this?". Been on GW since 2001 and I really thought everyone on GW was interested in gardening on some level.
I've since realized that many found their way to HT via searches on controversial subject matter.
It's difficult for me to bite my tongue sometimes, but I'm doing it. A lot.
Mylab's post is certainly not the first of its kind, and I hope it's not the last. I think it's important that we keep posting more like it from a variety of posters so that no one poster comes off sounding like a lecturer.
Thank you, Elvis. I also hope other's will continue to state what they wish this place could be like as some of us already have on this thread - and certainly make suggestions for how to accomplish that goal.
For those who think its fine as it is and would be boring any other way, they should speak up also as everybody gets to choose to have their say.
I believe the site becomes whatever tone the participants create it to be.
Too late for that ! ;)
My sentiments too, and have been since the beginning.
I'd like to see much less of the back and forth "defending honor" type posts. I'm sure it's interesting and maybe even fun for the few participants who engage in this so frequently.
After the first few volleys, it becomes pretty much useless prattle.
Even before the first few volleys thats all that can be hoped for.
I would like to see less holier than though posts and those characterizing a poster as vitriolic or too partisan for ones sensibilities. Lily has been here for years and is no more partisan than any of the other long time members here.
IMO, if one does not have the stomach for partisan politics or is too timid to confront others with strong opinions or to debate the very divisive issues that present themselves, you are entitled to stroll on by. Otherwise the rules and even description of the Hot Topic forum by GW put one on notice of what one can expect here.
Moving on from that diversion, I am concerned about the fact that not enough is being done to stop these gun massacres. To do that one has to admit that there are some similarities or patterns to these crimes, and then try to formulate some solutions.
First consider the gun massacres that are mainly being committed by white men in their twenties, many of whom have mental issues or adhere to right wing groups. Most of them seem to have accumulated assault weapons, military fatigues, and enough ammunition to massacre an army. The LAX gunner, Jared Loghner, and Adam Lanza come to mind.
Similarly there are inner city gang bangers, drug dealers, and thugs who kill one another, our police and even innocent bystanders. These murderers are mainly black or Hispanic and have easy access to weapons and ammunition.
You can cream puff either one of those categories if you like and claim sensitivity about profiling or partisanship but, it is what it is. And, you know what they ALL have in common?
1.) Easy access to guns, assault weapons and large clips of ammunition.
2.) Young males primarily late teens or twenties with a lot of testosterone and a confused or immature thought process.
We are all frustrated with the gun violence that seems to only be getting worse. In order to begin to solve these problems we have to stop trying to sugar coat the issues or use politically correct terms to describe these wackjobs, thugs, psychos assassins, or whatever you want to call them, and face the facts.
And if you want to exempt these Right Wing nut job groups like the Patriots, that would be as naive as ignoring Al Queda or a group of Muslim men acting suspiciously at an airport terminal.
I am sorry if I have offended left leaning posters with my view on profiling for law enforcement purposes (such as forming a strategy to address certain categories of crime) but so be it.
This post was edited by heri_cles on Tue, Nov 5, 13 at 15:32
You think partisianship is the issue? I take no issue with Lily being the polar opposite from me. And almost all of the time, I take her posts with great respect.
It's the broadstroke slandering with what I take issue. Speaking purely for myself. It's not that Patriots or Al Queda aren't bad, they are, but they're just bad because they're bad. It does not require tossing "rightwing nutjob" to get across that they're ultra bad (which is what seems to be implied!) and using that as the underscore.
Is it not possible to say it without the rightwing part? I'd settle for just seeing nutjob. I'll even agree! I might even agree the problems lie in extremely conservative, skewed eyes on their part. But to see that little dig the knife in, twist it, kind of jab, not necessary to get across how angry one is about what happened.
I agree that it's the choice of wording and tone that can make a difference. Heri, if you want to inspire someone to see at least a bit of your point of view as being valid, how you word the point of view is vital.
I agree with both Lily and you, Heri, to a great degree about many issues. I dont always agree with the choice of wording or tone as I know that it will likely be the wording and tone that will be many reader's take away rather than valid points you might have made.
As far as Im concerned, this is not personal with either if you, I hope you both believe me on that score. It isnt.
I would like you both to be so persuasive in your arguments that you might occasionally convince someone to re- think a point of view. I feel so strongly because I so often agree with either the total or at least the general idea of what you are saying.
If those you are trying to convince are turned off, then what's the point? What have you accomplished with your argument, you might have lost someone who might have suddenly found themselves in agreement with a point, but for the wording and tone.
Its not only about 'tender sensibilities' although with me it must be admitted that it has become an issue. I am sick of the ugly digs, the vitriol, of how I behave often in this forum - and I know I cant be the only one. We have lost some really great members on both sides of the fence - not by the differences of opinion but by the manner of behavior and by the general attitude and tone.
I believe it could be a much better forum if most of us took out the personal, ignored the inserted little insults and instead, made our points mostly with persuasive writing, inspiring one single person to reconsider one single ingrained idea that is perhaps in need of challenge. Wording and phrasing is everything.
We need to convince a lot, especially those who are readers only, to perhaps do re- thinking and re- evaluating. Maybe they would be willing to participate on a board where the fights were few, the arguments refined and to the issue, without the constant baiting.
After all, elections are ahead and nothing's a sure bet. There's a lot of persuasion to be done.