Another school shooting - this time an elementary school in Connecticut.
They are not saying on the news yet, but it appears around 20 kids have been shot.
This is just too much. It's time to ban guns. Now.
It was time to ban guns when that incident at a McDonald's occurred in San Ysidro. I've pretty much given up on this country becoming a civilized society. Cowboys rule.
At least one child is dead now. I guess some say guns don't kill children.........
This post was edited by fouquieria on Fri, Dec 14, 12 at 13:13
People kill other people, guns or no guns. It's strictly the fault of the persons who hold them in hand. We can't penalize everyone for the actions of a tiny minority... even though children were involved.
We go over this and over this, and very few seem to understand that laws are only effective if everyone follows them. Clearly, this is not the case. Murder is already against the law, but it just happened.
I'm not willing to throw our rights and freedoms out the window out of fear or anger at the actions of one or two other individuals.
It's horrifying and sad that children were involved, but banning guns is not the answer. Do you think that shooting would not have happened if there were a gun ban? Think again. Weapons are a part of our world, our culture, and will remain so regardless of laws or restrictions.
Guns are already a part of our world... it can't be taken back. We can't go back to a world without weapons, as much as we'd like to. In spite of the shock at what just happened, we have to remain calm and think it through.
My personal observation is that no citizen needs to own or carry any weapon that can discharge a large amount of ammunition in short order... or machine guns, or automatic weapons.
Obama just said that today is not the day to talk about gun control. He's absolutely correct. Such talks need to be held without such commotion, without anger or fear, with reason and cool heads prevailing.
Not going to happen, jerzee.
I'm just waiting for the argument for putting MORE guns out there...
"If the principal, vice-principal, teachers and janitor were armed, they coulda shot back at this guy"
Hell, might as well arm the children too... it's never too early to teach these kids to shoot bad guys, right?
26 dead (18 children and 8 adults). The kids were 5-10 years old and now they are gone. And the kids who lived through it will be traumatized forever.
We need to get real about this. There has never been this much violence in this country. It's time to stop this insanity.
The shooter kills 28 people, then kills himself and that's it. And then another one takes his place and does it again. There are also the Stand Your Ground idiots who apparently think they can kill someone who looks at them the wrong way.
They are saying there's a second shooter who was caught. Dressed in black. Shades of Columbine. Except these were little kids.
Time to stop this once and for all.
"People kill other people, guns or no guns. It's strictly the fault of the persons who hold them in hand. "
True , so time to stop calling it GUN control and call it PEOPLE control. Strict controls aren't need on the gun, they are needed on the persons who owns the guns.
One only needs to look at the escalating amount of gun violence to understand that something is very, very wrong and it needs to be addressed.
One of the viewer comments on CNN was "the vast majority of mass shootings that have taken place are from people who obey the law when they purchase weapons."
Well YES! That doesn't clue people in that not everyone should have the right to own a gun? That stricter controls on gun ownership and purchase are needed?
Guns are tools, limiting access will help cut down the 'insane' incidents yet the vast majority of shooters very well know right from wrong. It's the mindset of might makes right.
Gun control? Good luck at that.
This just insane. Those dear little dead kids and the trauma all the rest will have for the rest of their lives is just unimaginable . Only in this gun loving wild west country. Every other freaking day in this country it seems there is a shooting like this. Two days ago all the focus was on the Mall killings, and now this...the worse shooting in our history in public schools and second only to VA Tech. We live in a world gone mad. Little kids getting ready for Xmas , and now the parents will be having funerals instead. This didn't occur in some backwoods school by a deranged hunter, but it was a suburban school in a metropolitan area.
I'm all for gun ownership/possession control.
Thanks, chase, for the change of language. Now we can quit having stupid arguments about whether guns or people shoot other people.
Where's bill? Cant have gun discussion without his loud belligerance elbowing out everyone else, can we?
As I just noted in the other thread, this sounds very much like a 2 or 3 man fire team, with horrible cases of PTSD, carrying out a planned execution, with no intentions of getting out alive, able to skillfully and accurately assault women and children without hesitation. Where do you find guys willing and able to do this kind of thing?
This was planned. I think it's a case of our military not in control, a case of revenge for some unknown reason, or possibly a case of gang related/personal revenge.
Though, how you think an entire nation will simply hand in all weapons is beyond me...
Jodi, sometimes you can be so obnoxious. You know damn well that this country can never ever be disarmed. Don't play gun-loving martyr at a time like this.
If I have offended you, good. Your attitude and statement are beyond offensive.
It's been done, when a country has finally become so nauseated with this kind of slaughter. All the same arguments were deployed on both sides, and yet now nobody would think of going back. Same thing with controls on hunting.
How much longer will rich, Western nations go on pretending to be intrepid frontier states, red in tooth and claw? Want meat? Go to the dam**ed supermarket like everybody else. Put your toys away and grow up.
Well yes... just like all the other mass shootings that have gone on. They were all 3 man fire teams from a military out of control and trained to hunt women and children. No other explanation.
I don't pretend to have any answers. But God be with these parents. It's less than two weeks before Christmas. These children were still being good for Santa. My heart is breaking in two. Don't argue about gun control or anything else. If you believe in prayer, now is the right time.
Incidents like this are rare in countries that have stricter gun laws but of course we arent doing anything wrong nor can we learn anything from other countries. that is not the Amurakin way
One child said the teacher told them to hide in her office, then the police came and led them out, telling the children to close their eyes as they led them through the room and out of the school.
We know what that means. The kids were led past the bodies of their classmates. The police were sparing them the horror of seeing that.
Thanks mrskjun. I can't begin to imagine the pain those families and that community feeling. My heart is breaking for them.
I had this very thought. If the kids/teachers had been armed (isn't that the usual pro gun response) then this would not have happened. I am sure every parent wants their child sitting in a classroom with a teacher that has a gun strapped to their side. Talk about behaving in class. And then there is always the possibility of the same said teacher having their own "meltdown".
Why is anyone surprised about the "clinging to the gun crowd" when we read posters saying someone will get their food when "the ammo is gone".
They will give up their guns when all the babies have "cold dead hands".
My heart is going out to those parents, that community, and to your whole country.
The BEST HELP you guys could EVER give the parents of those dead children is to FIGHT TOOTH AND NAIL to change the laws and the mindset and the total crap that surrounds this whole "right to bear arms"...
I wish you the best. I want to see the day when these shootings are no longer making headlines every couple of months.
This shooter had a child in the school per the Chicago News Tribune - which seems to have updates every handful of minutes.
This is all mystifyingly horrendous. All that "motivation seeking" doesn't seem to do a da**ed thing to prevent the next act of savagery. What drives these people to kill seems to be as varied as the people themselves. And what on earth has anyone learned from staring at Charles Manson through the bars for decades? Better these killers should be dead.
Reminds me of breaking a clock so the inside is the outside; look at all the spilled bits and parts. Do you then understand the nature of time?
All that "motivation seeking" doesn't seem to do a da**ed thing to prevent the next act of savagery.
Attempts to understand killers are important. One day, perhaps it will lead to finding and treating killers before they kill.
But in the meantime... we either find a way to limit access to weapons, or we get comfortable with mass shootings like this.
Latest news is his mother was a kindergarten teacher and it is possible that the children and her killed were in her classroom. He killed his father in NJ and then drove to the school. 24 years old and his name has been released.
As long as guns are being made, people will find a way to get them. Making them illegal isn't going to help much.
Don't know why life has so little value to some. don't know a solution either. Maybe someday things (and people) will change.
Suicide by murder?
Suicide by murder?
Wasn't that a key factor in the theatre shootings and others? 15 minutes of fame by becoming "The Worst" mass murderer? That guy had planned it out, bulletproof vest, military gear, more ammo and weapons than a small army needs?
Dunno. Wish I understood.
It's a fallacy that it's unconstitutional to have gun control. If you read the appropriate clause in the constitution, it's pretty obvious that they are referring to militias - like the military or the "police".
Here it is. It refers to citizen militias when people were called on to bear arms to fight the British.
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
The clause that modifies the sentence is NEVER taken into account by the second amendment fanatics.
The second amendment refers to a different time and place in our history and needs to be changed.
When are we going to be ready for an ADULT conversation on guns? The two intractable sides NEED to get together to halt this madness.
HG - I don't seem to be as hopeful that this kind of collective knowledge might someday be a deterrent. We're loathe to trample someone's rights by calling attention to behaviors we might consider outside the norm. With all the various forms of disenfranchisement people feel, real or imaginary - exactly what is the norm nowadays?
Here are some related factoids:
It's easier for a mentally-ill person to buy firearms to kill others than it is for that same person to get appropriate mental healthcare.
The Michigan Legislature is considering or has passed a bill to allow guns in schools.
This country is doomed in so many ways. Until we recognize and address our problems, instead of thinking we are so "exceptional", they will continue.
I don't seem to be as hopeful that this kind of collective knowledge might someday be a deterrent. We're loathe to trample someone's rights by calling attention to behaviors we might consider outside the norm.
Perhaps we are a long way from it, you are right.
The question is... what do we do in the meantime?
Just sit back and get used to gun violence like this? Or take action to get control?
"It's easier for a mentally-ill person to buy firearms to kill others than it is for that same person to get appropriate mental healthcare."
This needs to be posted and reposted and reposted.
I just ran across an article in the Washington Post. It has eleven facts related to gun violence, which I found interesting. There was only one correlation (not causation) between something and the lower incidence, per capita, by state, of gun violence. That correlation? Gun control laws. No correlations between immigration, education, mental health, etc., etc.
Here is a link that might be useful: An interesting read
My wonderful President, wiping tears from his face, gave a moving speech about this horrible crime. Equal time should be given to Wayne LaPierre to defend the gun culture which has permeated this country. More guns were bought since Obama was reelected than in any month ever.
Was only a matter of time....
Gun control debate erupts on Twitter
josefsmith2011, @josefsmith2011, posted, "Guns don't kill people people do! Practice the 2nd amendment keep your gun loaded with you at all times the younger you are the better."
So the answer is "arm the children". What could possibly go wrong with a classroom of five year olds armed to the teeth.
I guess the actions of the shooter can all be put down to lack of personal responsibility.....
In your country, and mine, we have to provide open access to mental health services...and that means we as tax payers have to pay for it!
If we have no other obligation surely we have an obligation to provide mental and physical healthcare to all who need it.
You won't get gun control we are a savage nation when it comes to murder!
The mother was killed in the classroom but now they are reporting that his brother is the one that was found dead in the residence in hoboken new jersey.
It's easier for a mentally-ill person to buy firearms to kill others than it is for that same person to get appropriate mental healthcare."
This needs to be posted and reposted and reposted.
Indeed it does kwoods.
Some people say everything happens for a reason. Really?
And this is the time to pray to God but not the time to discuss gun violence and gun control? How dare you. Listen, God is not stopping these assassinations and massacres so maybe it is time that we as a society pull our praying heads out of our azzes and actually do something rational that turns this out-of-control gun culture around on its ear.
Baby caskets everywhere. Now, when is enough enough?
People kill other people, guns or no guns.
I'm so tired of reading "guns don't kill people, people do".
What a crock!!!!
Often a killing is done in the heat of the moment and had a gun not been available the outcome might have been different.
The killer, in this case, without a gun, might have just attacked one person. Instead, because he was armed he was able to kill 27.
As far as I'm concerned there is no good reason for the average citizen to own a gun.
Although I am shocked beyond the pale at what has taken place YET AGAIN in an American school and again, shocked and deeply saddened beyond the pale as we all are that now it's very young children who were victimized - small children not yet even old enough to perhaps know how to try to run and hide had they needed to -
-I would like to have this very necessary conversation perhaps next Monday or after Christmas or after the New Year, today really is imo an inappropriate a day as could exist to attempt a discussion about the heated gun control issue, when we need to take and keep into our hearts all those who have been affected in that town today.
All that will get said today is the same old points in the same old way, accomplishing not one person to see even a single point that MIGHT be valid from another, and certainly not in any tone but anger/disgust.
-I wish people would not refer to Bill or Jodi as they have. they both are as passionate about this constitionally ruled issue as are we women and men in here who feel as passionately about our own contitutionally ruled issue regarding the right to an abortion should we deem it a necessity for our life .
-Because of the vitriolic nature that always accompanies the gun control issue, on this, the day that small children and some adults and even the mother and brother of the shooter died, I really can't think of a worse day to discuss this issue than on this day of violent death caused by guns and most likely angry mental illness.
I believe that the complications of this issue are so vast and great and divisive that we simply HAVE to be willing to LEARN how to discuss it - and abortion - or the type of violent incidences surrounding both issues will become an important part of what defines us as a people to the rest of the world which we share. I suspect that for many countries, it already has. That type of definition of an entire people can take decades - or longer to shake.
-For those who don't care what the rest of the world thinks of us, then no skin off your noses but for those of us who do care - because we share this world with the rest of humanity - we must come to some sort of agreement about what we are going to do or keep or change about the gun laws in this country - we MUST.
("for those who don't care" remark is in general about the general population of our country and there are too many - not specifically anyone in this forum)
I have put forth an idea once before after Congressman Gifford was shot, in the shock of that time it was never commented upon (although I might remmber that incorrectly) except with my own husband, who doesn't necessarily think it's a workable idea.
I would like to come back when the time is more appropriate - be that tomorrow or next week or Jan 2nd, and maybe have some sort of discussion where everyone's thoughts on the issue can be respected, or be pretended to be respected, as maybe a practice session. I would like to discuss with Bill and Jodi and anyone else who feels that gun ownership rights must not be violated - and see what they think of the most general idea I have been mulling. It's at least a start to a conversation - one that must take place and one that must start somewhere.
-I do not fool myself with the pretense that this forum has ever discovered any answers or even better defined any questions about our country, but if a rational discussion is ever to take place, it must begin with the effort of each of us, the individual American.
We must try and try again and then try AGAIN - or we will continue to be a people who are so locked in our position, unable to even concede a point we might even AGREE with - or worse, move forward on, for fear of being the "loser" or the loss of face or pride - sometimes I fear that the issue we discuss aren't really being discussed - a power play is taking place and the loss of face is uacceptable, no matter the consequences.
-At what point do we make the individual, honest and deep effort with each other, realizing and accepting the sacrifices of careful wording which would be required and the ability to let go of a point - of sacrifices in general that always must necessarily take place in the resolutions of issues - in order to come together as a country and be the people that we like to pretend we are to the rest of the world?
-It must begin with each one of us as an individual, I believe that from the bottom of my heart and always have.
But, not today. And, probably not tomorrow.
All, my opinion only, I speak for no one but myself.
I'm not sure mental health would've helped. It sure didn't help Seung-Hui Cho at Virginia Tech. Not just signs, they knew, without a doubt! They sent him to treatment and the shooting still happened. He was considered mean and a bully.
Knowing isn't even enough. What more should be done? I don't know, but more. Gun control won't even do it.
Until the National Rifle Association changes their stance on guns, nothing will change. The politicians who accept their support need to be pressured by the voters to start representing the rights of people who are opposed to being shot by these lunatics who have "rights" to have guns. I feel sick from what has happened today & as a parent I can't even imagine what the parents of those 20 dead children and the families of the adults who died are feeling. It's just unimaginable that people can continue to insist on such limited regulation of such lethel weapons.
I agree, the President's press conference re this horrible tragedy was very touching, natural and human, his words and reaction was the perfect mirror reflection of we, the people. I'm glad he allowed his own grief to show rather than being the stoic and overly calm nation's leader, in this shocking day of violent death of so many children and the adults in that grade school - his natural reaction was exactly what we needed.
Step back and hug one another at a time like this.
Today in China a man attacted school children with a knife.
22 were INJURED. Not DEAD. Terrible enough in itself.....
State-run news agency Xinhua has reported that Min Yingjun, 36, was arrested after he went on a stabbing rampage that left children and an elderly woman injured as they were walking to school on Friday morning. A post on Weibo, China's top microblogging site that's similar to Twitter, described the "vicious incident" that unfolded.
"One mental patient charged into a group of students on their way to school, hacked and injured one resident and 22 students," the post read.
Two incidents of mass attacks on primary school children on the same day on opposite sides of the world.
What the hell is going on?
Not just a regular gun either. These things that fire off multiple rounds a second and then are reloaded with snap of a magazine. Some must need a lot of firepower to stave off all those crazed muslims, hoodies, and illegals. Of course I could be wrong and maybe they just like to hunt for venison that way...you know, to feed the family.
By the way, the mother was a kindergarten teacher and most of those killed were kindergarteners. I want to go after the NRA with a sledgehammer.
This post was edited by fouquieria on Fri, Dec 14, 12 at 17:48
How fortunate for the Chinese students that they don't live in the USA. Their assailant had a knife. They were wounded. He could have killed them all in seconds with a GUN.
Of COURSE this is about GUNS!
I want that Amendment changed NOW!
The horror! True horror. Babies and Mothers and Fathers without their babies.A nightmare.....
And this was the week that Florida, aka The Land of the Loony, announced, with pride, that there are very close to 1 MILLION, yes, MILLION, carrying concealed weapons. They are issuing 10,000 to 15,000 permits per month.
Yes sireeeee... couldn't get them out fast enough with the old system so now they 'fast track" 'em. Turn over time is 35 days.
And check out this bit of convoluted policy.
There is a background check but not NICS. Your permit is currently issued by the Department of Agriculture which is not a law enforcement agency, and therefore cannot do the NICS check required by federal law. Only "law enforcement agencies" can access NICS, and therefore the federal exemption that normally applies to concealed weapon permits, does not apply to those issued in Florida.
I would think this bit of lunacy designed to make an end run around the law should be easy to fix...
Amend the federal statute/law..to say that ONLY law enforcement agency can issue these permits. I'm pretty sure that it what was intended, but as usual, they took advantage of the fact that it isn't SPELLED out!
Apparently, Florida has the same type God figure as Grover Norquist with his NO TAX HIKES pledge...goes around TELLING and THREATENING anyone who runs for office or is thinkin' about it or wanting to get reelected that they MUST keep their hands off of these crazy gun laws..that goes for law enforcement, too. They run for office down here.
'Course, you know that the bogus "commission" that was set up to study the ULTRA LOONY Stand Your Ground Law basically has said they see no reason, what-so-ever, to change a thing!
If I could sell my house, I would be out of this nutcase State in a flash. Biggest mistake of my life, moving here.
I find it to be a truly frightening place!
Here is a link that might be useful: FlorIDIOTS
What's the crime rate in Florida? shall we look at facts? or just spout feelings?
Here is a link that might be useful: Crime rates in Fl.
This post was edited by cornopean on Fri, Dec 14, 12 at 18:33
Have you ever written anything on this forum that couldn't be seen as "spouting feelings"?
I reference real statistics and get accused of spouting feelings. Ok.
Here is a chart of the entire US crime rate. appears to be dropping as gun laws are loosened. Hmmmmm.....
Here is a link that might be useful: Crime in the US
Real statistics such citing a 2003 study of gun violence in England...
My father was a policeman and he always commented how suburban police departments "deflated" crime numbers (this was way back in the 60's), he was a City of Cleveland cop. This article seems to confirm what he said.
Violent Crime Up In the U.S. For First Time In Nearly 2 Decades, Despite FBI Claims
Violent crime rates across the U.S. jumped by about 18 percent, and property crimes rose by 11 percent between 2010 and 2011, according to a report released Wednesday by the Bureau of Justice Statistics.
It's the first increase for both crime categories since 1993, according to Michael Planty, an analyst with the bureau. The annual report compiles data from a nationwide survey and captures many crimes not reported to police.
The survey estimated that nearly 6 million people were victims of a violent crime in 2011, while roughly 17 million were the victims of a property crime. The largest increase in the survey was seen in assaults, which rose 22 percent.
The sharp divergence between the Bureau of Justice Statistics' report and the FBI's data, which is compiled through crime data submitted from state agencies and police departments across the country is troubling, O'Donnell said.
Experts have raised concerns for years that police departments face pressure to show continually falling crime rates, leading to underreporting of crime.
Here is a link that might be useful: source
Pretty charts claiming violent crimes are less as gun laws loosen are utterly useless.
What gun laws? When? Here's a graph that shows that when gun laws were tightened 1990 - eg using a weapon during the course of a crime, gun crimes went down:
This is not the first unnecessary crime of these proportions to be carried out, and it won't be the last. The cat is out of the bag, and there's no putting it back in. That's the simple truth... though some people don't want to hear it.
Don't need a hug, Brush... I'm not a touchy-feely kind of person. I'm simply realistic enough to realize that this kind of thing is bound to happen when all the stars align, so to speak, as they did... and that you can't ensure the safety or lives of everyone.
It's very unfortunate. There's no doubt about that.
I don't expect things to get better... I expect them to worsen, actually. Take a good look at our society, worldwide... death is an integral part of it, and has been since the dawn of time. It's unrealistic to think we can save everyone and everything. Children die in large numbers every day in other countries... often to line the pocket of someone or some company... and we seldom hear about it, and no one wants to discuss it... but if a few happen to get in the way of some nut, here... it's worse, for some reason?
I'm not sure I understand all the sputtering and screaming, or what good it does, or will do. In my world, death is something we're prepared for, whether it happens naturally or not. I'm glad that more didn't die in an explosion from a homemade bomb or grenade. That whole school could have been leveled. Lack of a gun doesn't stop someone on a hellbent mission to cause mayhem and death. And that's the simple truth.
If giving my opinion on a controversial issue makes me obnoxious because someone doesn't share my views, so be it. Everyone is entitled to hold their own views.
I'm not sure I understand all the sputtering and screaming, or what good it does, or will do. In my world, death is something we're prepared for, whether it happens naturally or not.
Ugh. I can't believe you can't hear yourself.
Marshall, I find you an extremely bright and intuitive person and most of the time don't find the need to challenge what you've written, but in this case, sorry, obnoxious doesn't even scratch the surface.
Keep the veiled insults coming... or unveil them if it helps. Am I supposed to be offended, or something? Should I pretend to be?
I have just read all these threads. Thank you, marshall, HG and lavender.
I have been crying about this all day, each and every time it came up. And I initially agreed with President Obama, that perhaps, we ought to err on the side of caution on not exploiting these families tragedy as a political talking point, but, it's come up here now. So since that bell cannot be unrung ...
I have to say that I really think people on both sides of this issue need to care less about being right than they do about a solution.
I think the pro-gun lobby ought to care enough to stop and consider that while people do kill other people, that maybe guns do it so dynamically that they merit special controls at the very least, maybe even an outright ban.
And I think the anti-gun lobby ought to care enough to stop and consider that while people with guns do kill people, that there is probably an underlying cultural component of violence that is equally important, if not even possibly more relevent to address.
So the question is, do we care enough about trying to stop 5 year olds from being shot at school enough to be willing not to be completely right and look at the other side too, or do we not? Would we rather be smug that we are right (correct, not politically leaning), or have kids keep getting killed in schools?
As always, jmho.
I haven't seen anyone from the gun control side who hasn't advocated a comprehensive solution. Gun control, mental health and cultural issues ALL have to be addressed to make a dent in the problem.
I've spent more than enough time looking at it from "the other side's" point of view. Ultimately, the insistence is always there that "Guns don't kill people"...
We must just move in different circles.
I've seen and heard plenty of people who stated unequivocally that banning guns would solve our (the United States) violence problems. But I am glad to know my point doesn't apply to anyone you know.
If we can't control the guns, maybe we can start to control the bullets.
Jodi--ignore the trolls.
Guns are the tools. It's the mindset that pulls the trigger. And again, good luck with changing that.