Got a notice today about my paycheck...

cornopeanDecember 26, 2012

Got this notice today in my email:

"For year 2013, the temporary decrease in the employee tax rate from 6.2% to 4.2%, last extended under the Middle Class Tax Relief and Job Creation Act of 2012, will expire on December 31, 2012. This means that the Social Security tax employee rate will increase to 6.2% effective with the first pay in January."

Thanks George Bush. No thanks Obama. Oh well. Here comes the cliff.

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marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

Well they didn't rescind the employer's share of the tax assessment, at least I haven't heard otherwise from my accountant. Social security is the major withholding from many of my employees, especially those with more than 3 dependents.

    Bookmark   December 26, 2012 at 6:59PM
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PRO
Brushworks Spectacular Finishes(5)

A wage earner should applaud the return to the 6.2% SS contribution. A payroll tax cut only hurts your future, and the current retired folks.

    Bookmark   December 26, 2012 at 7:10PM
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alexrander

Dear Stupid people. George Bush had nothing to do with the payroll tax cut. It happened- that is, it was added under President Obama Dec. 2010 by Congress as part of an extension of other Bush tax cuts. Obama signed it, and then Obama worked hard last year-Feb 2011 to get it extended for another year.

It it doesn't get passed it will be because Congress doesn't want it to. When we had it - for 2 years, it was because Obama wanted to help people during the recession.

You should thank Obama and Congress for passing it for 2 years.

    Bookmark   December 26, 2012 at 7:21PM
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alexrander

Dear folks- especially those that know not what they talk about. George Bush had nothing to do with the payroll tax cut as I remember it. It happened- that is, it was added under President Obama Dec. 2010 by Congress as part of an extension of other Bush tax cuts. Obama signed it, and then Obama worked hard last year-Feb 2011 and signed it again, to get it extended for another year. The Republicans were not much help but someone can look up the bill for both years.

It it doesn't get passed it will be because Congress doesn't want it to. When we had it - for 2 years, it was because Obama wanted to help people during the recession.

You should thank Obama and Congress for passing it for 2 years.

    Bookmark   December 26, 2012 at 7:27PM
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fouquieria(10b)

Thanks George Bush. No thanks Obama. Oh well. Here comes the cliff.

Hey, somebody's got to pay for Bush's two wars.

-Ron-

    Bookmark   December 26, 2012 at 7:30PM
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chase_gw

You are confused......

Bush had zero to do with the temporary "payroll tax" holiday it was enacted in 2010 and extended in 2012.

.....

    Bookmark   December 26, 2012 at 8:13PM
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jmc01

"A wage earner should applaud the return to the 6.2% SS contribution. A payroll tax cut only hurts your future, and the current retired folks."

Boy, am I thankful (sic) to be supporting the current retired folks...especially the ones who are adding to their wealth through my efforts at work.

NOT!

    Bookmark   December 26, 2012 at 8:22PM
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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Thanks George Bush. No thanks Obama.

Perfect example of when to use the new edit feature!

    Bookmark   December 26, 2012 at 9:23PM
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Embothrium(USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA)

When do I get to edit posts made by others?

    Bookmark   December 26, 2012 at 10:02PM
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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

When do I get to edit posts made by others?

When you read a bunch of comments by various contributors all saying how wonderful and intelligent Nancy is, you'll know that I've figured out how to edit posts by others. Because I really am so wonderful, I'll share the secret (when discovered).

    Bookmark   December 26, 2012 at 10:12PM
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esh_ga

Nancy is so wonderful and intelligent.

    Bookmark   December 26, 2012 at 10:45PM
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marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

Nancy is insightful and brilliant and a beautiful paisana.

    Bookmark   December 26, 2012 at 10:47PM
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Campanula UK Z8

Nancy......well, words fail me - no hyperbole too fanciful to fully express the sheer unadulterated genius emanating from her keyboard. Truly, a visionary renaissance woman for our times.

That sort of stuff, Nancy?

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 7:02AM
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PRO
Brushworks Spectacular Finishes(5)

especially the ones who are adding to their wealth through my efforts at work.

I think you're confused. If not, please edit my post accordingly.

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 7:10AM
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mrskjun(9)

Don't edit your post brush. I think confusion is the correct word. I wonder how many people are putting that 2% into some other kind of retirement account?

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 7:18AM
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Brushworks Spectacular Finishes(5)

Unfortunately, it was given with the intent to encourage spending and for the most part, most people did.

They spent their SS benefit early with no immediate penalty. Not a wise thing to do.

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 7:26AM
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tobr24u(z6 RI)

Nancy you are my goddess...

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 7:54AM
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rob333

A wage earner should applaud the return to the 6.2% SS contribution. A payroll tax cut only hurts your future, and the current retired folks.

Uh no. The corporations should be paying instead of receiving refunds. And when I make less, I'll spend less. It only helps out retired folks, it's not doing me any favors or the economy. Wrong fix! When my son only got a coat for Christmas and we're headed into an even less productive fiscal year at my house, I shudder to think what we'll do without next year. Some better change that does NOT affect the "wage earners" is needed--go after those who have capital gains. Tax them instead. "Everyone" is tightening their belts? Yea, right. WRONG!

This post was edited by rob333 on Thu, Dec 27, 12 at 9:46

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 9:34AM
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haydayhayday

I love Nancy, too.

Commie women are Hot!!!

Hay

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 9:56AM
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haydayhayday

Dear Mr. Prez and Representatives from the proud state of Connecticut,

How about I just keep my contribution to the Social Security Fund and let my employer pay me the share that he pays into it on my behalf? You won't need to be taking care of me anymore and we'll call it even.

It's pretty clear you've got too much on your plate, too many things to think about, and, I hate to say it, but you seem to be doing a pretty lousy job with what you do already.

Sincerely,

A Concerned Tax Payer.

PS. I've vote for you next time if you do this.

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 10:07AM
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mrskjun(9)

rob, you'll be 65 one day, don't you want Social Security to be there for you? Or would you prefer passing the cost on to your son?

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 10:11AM
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rob333

I already pay my fair share. Why do I have to pay the way for 65 year olds who got to pay for a much smaller generation than the one for whom I am paying, while, at the same time, paying for mine (which I won't get back all I am putting into it, I'm 45 and I'll get to tighten MY belt, yet again), BOTH groups... all while the cost of living is growing exponentially more than my paycheck (which isn't growing at all, raises have been minimal and/or non-existant)... Maybe it's time for the retirees to tighten their belts. No? Or maybe, just maybe, the corporations and capital gains earner's can tighten their belts. I'm not interested in my son and I beginning starving now and continuing on into my retirement while others live off the fat of my earnings.

Don't you want what's fair MrsK? I realize a poor man can't hire someone, but when the rich ones aren't hiring either, then it's time for the corporations to do something more with their money rather than hoard it. I find not hiring and hoarding as UN-American as it gets.

I work as hard as can be, never miss a day of work, never late--with a decent job and have little debt, and still don't have enough to buy a new car (much less the insurance on it) or can save enough for a downpayment on a house. What's wrong with this picture? We didn't even have Christmas gifts this year. Not because we were being frugal, we couldn't. When a child doens't get toys for Christmas from lack, something is wrong with America. My mom gave me $30 for the heck of it last month, and I remember thinking, "New shoes? I haven't had new shoes in 2 years." $30 new shoes. And that's what I got 2 years ago. That is ridiculous. When I can't even afford real shoes (that I'll probably have to wear for at least 2 years) and I work a full time, more than median income job, it's gone too far.

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 11:10AM
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adoptedbyhounds

Nancy is, at the very least, bi-lingual. How cool is that?

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 11:15AM
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dockside_gw

I notice corn didn't come back to apologize for his "mistake" of lauding Bush for something Obama did. Hmmm.

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 11:59AM
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jerzeegirl(9)

I already pay my fair share.

Well, I have been paying my fair share for 45 years and my DH for 50 years. In fact, I am *still* paying and will continue paying for the foreseeable future. So what's your point, rob? That's the way social security works.

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 12:30PM
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rob333

My point was, to tell MrsK I don't need to pay more than my fair share, but it is time for the corps to pay theirs. Do you not agree? It's tipping to beyond my fair share. Which is anything but fair.

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 12:32PM
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tishtoshnm Zone 6/NM

I am with Rob. In my household, that little tax break was indeed spent, on groceries. For Christmas, all that I purchased my kids was 1 work of fiction and something for their stocking (scotch tape for the 6 year old, a pocket calendar for the 8 year old, nail polish for the 11 year old and gloves for the 14 year old).

I can appreciate the problem of Social Security in the future and I have no desire to see the elderly living on dog food but I think it is rather callous to suggest that one should be thankful there will be less take home pay when one is trying to survive. That extra $25 or whatever it amounts to has absolutely helped and will definitely be missed.

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 12:40PM
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fouquieria(10b)

I wonder how many people are putting that 2% into some other kind of retirement account?

I lost 40% of my retirement account under Bush II...in a short six months...August 2008 to January 2009...during the post-dated Great Recession. Only about 20% of it has come back under Obama. Bad Obama!

-Ron-

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 12:55PM
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chase_gw

Perhaps I don't understand how SS works in the States. I was under the impression it was similar to our CPP.

Both employer and employee contribute a certain percentage...to a maximum amount...and then at age 65 you collect an amount on a scale relative to your contributions.

In our case ( my husband and I) the amount we collect, assuming one lives to a reasonable age, is greater than what we contribute, significantly greater.

It amounts to forced savings, and that annoys some, but if it wasn't for SS how on earth would people in the financial situation that many are ever live in retirement?

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 1:05PM
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marquest(z5 PA)

I am with Rob. I keep saying I feel like my Mom. What happened to the good ole days. Todays' Corporations, and the rich are the only ones that count. It is easy to see what happened....the corporations have lobbyists in Washington with the bag of money in hand to make sure they get more money. The average working poor do not have anything to offer Congress.

Rob, tishtoshnm my heart breaks when I hear parents talk about how they are struggling to put food on the table and give their children just a little joy and basic needs. You would think that the ones with so much would not fight so hard to give so little.

Do anyone think 2% increase in taxes would hurt anyone that has enough to buy whatever they want?

I am my brother's keeper.

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 1:10PM
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fouquieria(10b)

It amounts to forced savings...

Which amounts to 25%+ of government income, which earns no interest which suddenly becomes an 'entitlement' in some minds.

-Ron-

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 1:13PM
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chase_gw

Ron are you saying you only collect what you and your employer put in? Once that amount is reached your SS cuts out?

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 1:16PM
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rob333

I love my fellow man Chase, but when I can't even feed my family, and it's about to get even harder, I just want to give up. Really, this shi- is keeping me up at night. Makes me cry! What's the point? At this rate, I'll be on the streets anyhow. Why can't we get the funds from someplace else now since it's sucking us dry? When I live in a state where the cost of living is far lower than the rest of the nation, I have to wonder what it's like other places???

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 1:18PM
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jerzeegirl(9)

It IS an entitlement, ron. It's money that you are entitled to by rights because you contributed to it. Entitlement is a word that is very misunderstood and for many has a pejorative connotation, but that shouldn't be the case.

I agree, rob, that the capital gains rate needs to be raised.

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 1:26PM
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fouquieria(10b)

Ron are you saying you only collect what you and your employer put in? Once that amount is reached your SS cuts out?

I wasn't saying that at all. What I was doing was giving sarcastic inference. I do that a lot these days. I've lost patience for what passes as 'debate'.

I knew there was a reason why I had a distaste for those "Cancer Treatment Centers of America" commercials. Now I know why. It does seem like the extreme right has morphed into some kind of growing cancer in America...how appropriate.

-Ron-

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 1:26PM
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chase_gw

OK I still don't understand .....do you get more than you put in or don;t you?

Rob, I hear you loud and clear and my heart breaks for your situation especially given how you really have done it "by the book" It is nuts how the American tax system favours the wealthy......and worse yet how many NOT wealthy conservatives are rabid about keeping it that way!!!

But SS is important for those of moderate means and, while it needs some serious tweaking, it should be protected.

For my part, I would gladly have our CPP (same as your SS) means tested even though I contributed to it and would likely not get anything.

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 1:44PM
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jerzeegirl(9)

That would be a difficult question to answer, chase. It would depend on how long you collect it. There are some people never get back the money they put in.

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 2:07PM
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rob333

SS pays for more than just retirement. It pays for people on disability. So there are some who have never paid into it. The tweaking is the problem. If one generation pays for the other, then the one currrently on it, can't possibly live like the last one did- the sheer numbers alone account for that (rising costs, but not rising savings added). Right? Needless to say it's f-ed up, and regardless of how we got here, they still can't get it from the "wage earners" and it be enough, we'll all be broke.

My bigger problem these days are Medicare and Medicaid (also from payroll taxes)--the way they have to bill in order to get reimbursed is really messed up. I won't even go into the conversation my cousins and I had about how their providers charged them vastly different amounts than they had when they were on private insurance. That's another one I can't fund. It's supposed to have already been funded and we need to find ways to extend that trust, not boost it from drained turnips. Cutting medical care costs is going to have become a reality. Those costs are rising faster than any other cost in America.

We're in a real pickle. It's time to pay the piper. Not my son's generation, mine. Now. And I didn't even do it! Wish I could've at least gotten drunk before getting the hangover.

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 2:08PM
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duluthinbloomz4

Chase - in a word, yes - if you live a scant handfull of years after you start to draw SS, you will be in the position of getting more out than your combined self and employer contributions.

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 2:10PM
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marquest(z5 PA)

Chase it is possible to collect and never contributed. My mother was a housewife all her life. My dad/her husband contributed of course but she did not. She collected SS according to his contribution.

If you are divorced you can even collect on the highest earner of your ex. Which determines your monthly payments. Most times because of the disparity of women making less than men the male income is usually higher. So the ex-wife would collect more monthly. Again making it higher payment vs what was contributed. I think if you were married 10 years you can collect on the spouse.

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 2:10PM
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chase_gw

JZ there must be an answer based on averages, plus as I understand it, it goes to surviving spouses and maybe even dependent children...how long does that go on for?

Don't get me wrong I am a FULL supporter of programmes like SS and am willing to contribute to them even if I don't personally collect.

I just find it somewhat disingenuous when some suggest they they are only getting what they paid for. Unless that is true but I still can't seem to get an answer to that question.

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 2:12PM
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chase_gw

Thanks folks, I posted before seeing your responses.

That's the way it is here too. Given a reasonable life expectancy you get way more than you put in and that's the problem! Something has to change here...and I suspect there.

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 2:21PM
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duluthinbloomz4

I don't know about Canada, but our Social Security is taxed - mine both Federal and State, so I'm "giving back" to the tune of 20% Fed and 7 point something % to Minnesota.

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 3:17PM
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chase_gw

Ours too but we have a progressive tax system so the % tax you pay is based on total income. So the more income you have the greater % is taxed back...I'm OK with that.

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 3:35PM
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ohiomom

....and from one who is working to supplement her social security, no way can I live on the small amount I receive (would not even pay rent/utilities let alone food) I can tell you no one is making me wealthy.

DH paid into PERS, all his money went to the doctors/hospitals when he got sick and then died. Nothing was left for me.

I am sorry that some feel resentful about paying into the system, but I do know that there are many more in my situation than some people may realize.

I promise you that I will work until I also drop dead, and even collecting I am still paying into social security and paying taxes.

I never once in my life resented paying into social security for my parents, mom lived to age 90 and dad lived into his early 80's.

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 3:46PM
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rob333

I would be ok with Canadian modeled system. There are too many loopholes, not just for corporations. How about that? Mitt was right about something. Course, he had no idea which loopholes were worth it and which weren't.

Ah, all this is temporary anyhow. But a moment in time. There's more than $ to life.

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 3:46PM
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rob333

I don't resent paying in. I'm sorry if that's how I am coming across. I just think middle America is dying and we need to change the funding so that more of upper America is paying more, helping more. You deserve it and more. So do I. We all deserve it.

:)

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 4:06PM
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jillinnj

I just think middle America is dying and we need to change the funding so that more of upper America is paying more, helping more.

If only everyone felt that way. More of that and less of the why should I pay more attitude from those that can most afford it.

I have never once regretted paying into SS. It sure helps my almost 94 year old dad and almost 90 year old mom. It sure doesn't come close to paying for their very frugal lifestyle (my brother and I make up the difference) but it does pay for food and a few other necessities.

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 4:12PM
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marquest(z5 PA)

SS was not suppose to be an income but a supplement. Corporations had pensions and when the dollar became more important to the corporations than their employees the 401K was invented. As the years went by the corporations that matched dollar for dollar became less and less of a match and some contribute nothing. It is sad.

SS is so little we all have to help our parents if that is all they have as a income. Because my daughter was single and living in my house she purchased a house for my mom. She did not have any housing expenses except food. This helped so she could buy whatever she wanted with her small pension and SS.

The average monthly Social Security benefit for a retired worker was about $1,230 at the beginning of 2012.

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 4:44PM
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chase_gw

"DH paid into PERS, all his money went to the doctors/hospitals when he got sick and then died. Nothing was left for me."

That is just so wrong. I don't get the resistance to universal health care any more than I get the preoccupation with fire arms.....its just so bizarre too me

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 4:50PM
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marquest(z5 PA)

That is just so wrong. I don't get the resistance to universal health care any more than I get the preoccupation with fire arms.....its just so bizarre too me

Chase it is the government. If you notice regardless of the discussion it comes back to fear of the government.

That is my puzzlement. The very fiber of our society has been government is what they do not trust or want. They only want to live by what the Government that they do not trust said in this Amendment or that Amendment. Why do they trust and respect these Amendments if the government is the problem? Confused you think?

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 5:04PM
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ohiomom

Marquest I just wish I was in the "average" ... not even close.

As far as the hospitals/doctors, do you have any idea what a month in the hospital cost? And himself was in FOUR different hospitals in that month's time and of course each one ran the same battery of tests that the previous one did.
Plus all the "specialists" they pulled in.

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 5:18PM
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marquest(z5 PA)

do you have any idea what a month in the hospital cost?

Ohiomom, I know what you went through. My mom past last year and between the hospital and 7 months of long term health care it was criminal to the cost. I performed as private duty nurse, patient advocate and daughter. I was at her bedside from 7 am until midnight every day and I did not miss one day. I signed everything and my sisters stood on the sidelines so you know who got the bill at the end.

Somethings I demanded and was told insurance did not cover and I demanded it and promised to pay. How anyone compares money as being more valuable than their parent or child is beyond my imagination.

Ohio because I know what you went through I offer my sympathy and I wish our society was more empathetic to the people in need.

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 5:32PM
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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Our priorities as a society are so messed up.

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 5:37PM
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ohiomom

Ah so you know that the insurance industry gets to decide what they will pay for and what treatments you get ... talk about "death panels".

Not looking for sympathy, but thank you, I have my children who help me where they can. I will pull my weight as long as my body can and have decided that when my time comes they will not go through what I did. That is my final choice.

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 5:43PM
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chase_gw

OM....I call my DH "himself".........never heard anyone else do that....: :-)

At the risk of having the flag wavers stone me........you guys have got a seriously messed up society given you are the most powerful, most generous, greatest nation on earth......or at least some think so

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 5:45PM
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marquest(z5 PA)

At the risk of having the flag wavers stone me...

I will not be one throwing stones at you. I would have to take a bat to my head if I tried to say you are wrong.

I saw what the insurance company do and will do when the cost of something is going past what they think will take from their bottom line. There are going to be a lot of people that are screaming ObamaCare death panels are going to suffer because they do not have a clue.

But that hatred of Obama will be to their detriment as they lay on that death bed at the end of life. The insurance co will not put them or their parents in intensive care like they are doing for Bush. They will lay in the room and burn with fever until death.

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 6:54PM
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dockside_gw

rob wrote: "SS pays for more than just retirement. It pays for people on disability. So there are some who have never paid into it"

Although there are some, like widowed or divorced spouses over age 62 or dependent children under age 18, who may receive benefits without paying into it, to get S.S. disability, one must have worked 40 quarters in the recent past (I no longer know the exact requirements) to get S.S. disability. If you don't qualify, then you apply for SSI, almost always a much lower benefit. I think it is $542 per month. And your medical, if you qualify, is covered by Medicaid, not Medicare.

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 7:21PM
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jmc01

Over the last few years, I've read enough of your posts griping about the 1% or 2% or people being rich if they earn more than $250,000. And, mrsk, at the same time you are now asking who might have put that 2% into another retirement account?

Put 2 and 2 together. Loads of people collect Social Security and save every damn penny of it. I know dozens who do this.

And yadda yadda yadda...they are entitled to it. Rob has it right...seniors are the biggest entitlement whiners out there and maybe, just maybe, as a group they'd just possibly consider putting up or shutting up as well...for the sake of this country.

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 8:54PM
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PRO
Brushworks Spectacular Finishes(5)

I will be saving my SS benefit when I receive it. It's mine. So if you don't mind, I'll keep it.

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 9:03PM
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marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

This is a sad thread, highlighting small and large struggles to pay bills and prepare for aging and assuming elder care with little help from family or community.

Hugggggs to all that need or want them.

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 9:57PM
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esh_ga

By the way, my company announced a change to the way 401K corp-matching will behave in 2013 - company contributions will not be paid at pay period time (currently twice a month) but instead will be paid in a lump sum in December ... as long as you are on payroll as of 12/15 of the year.

So now we will lose the compounding interest of the payments throughout the year and if for some reason your employment is terminated before Dec 15th then one would get zero company match for the time period one was there in the current year.

Not a good trend and I expect other companies will follow suit (my employer is a major employer in the US).

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 10:31PM
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jillinnj

Rob has it right...seniors are the biggest entitlement whiners out there (my bold emphasis)

Wow.

Not at all what I got from Rob's posts.

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 10:38PM
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elvis

Posted by marquest z5 PA (My Page) on Thu, Dec 27, 12 at 17:04

Chase: "That is just so wrong. I don't get the resistance to universal health care any more than I get the preoccupation with fire arms.....its just so bizarre too me"

marquest: "Chase it is the government. If you notice regardless of the discussion it comes back to fear of the government.

That is my puzzlement. The very fiber of our society has been government is what they do not trust or want. They only want to live by what the Government that they do not trust said in this Amendment or that Amendment. Why do they trust and respect these Amendments if the government is the problem? Confused you think?"

------------------

"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the American
Government take care of him; better take a closer look at the American Indian."

Henry Ford

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 11:10PM
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marquest(z5 PA)

Wow.

Not at all what I got from Rob's posts.

I went back and read Rob's post again because I thought I missed something.

Not what I got either.

    Bookmark   December 27, 2012 at 11:18PM
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marquest(z5 PA)

Wow.

Not at all what I got from Rob's posts.

I went back and read Rob's post again because I thought I missed something.

Not what I got either.

    Bookmark   December 28, 2012 at 12:10AM
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rob333

marshall, you're right. We're struggling, not just indivdiually, but as a nation. We really need to pull together.

    Bookmark   December 28, 2012 at 7:49AM
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