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shallons

Recovery from over bad water and fertilization?

shallons
9 years ago

A handful of plants are suffering from (I believe) over fertilization and/or off balance PH. These look to me like they will recover if I'm right and it's a nutrient / water issue. The young foliage is crunchy hard, and seems pinched with too much quilting. Also, the affected plants are not growing well ... just sort of maintaining ... the variegated plant has rust spots on the leaf edges and one other appears overly hairy. I'm confident this is NOT bugs!

I've switched to bottled spring water for the time being until I can get to the store for a PH test kit and chemicals to correct the PH.

So ... I'd sure appreciate your opinions and suggestions for PH adjustment chemicals as well as how long you think it might take for the plants to recover, assuming they can.

Here is the "garden" as of this morning. Individual plant pictures to follow...

Comments (19)

  • shallons
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Variegated plant with rust spots. This foliage is appropriately flexible but the spots are recurring and growth is not vigorous. This shows the rust on new growth. The next picture is of rust / brown spots on the outer leaf tips.

  • shallons
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Outer leaves with brown spots.

  • shallons
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Hairy crown

  • shallons
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    This is the plant with the hairy crown

  • shallons
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    This is a crunchy crown - a good example of over quilting. This plant happens to be one that has strong quilting (Princess K Rei) but the foliage should be softer.

  • shallons
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    I hope that's enough images for you to see what I'm talking about.

    And yes, I know the plants look overpotted, so I'll mention that they were larger and I've removed leaves. The plants would be in appropriately sized pots if they had all the foliage they've produced.

  • aegis1000
    9 years ago

    Well, you certainly look like you know what you're doing.

    Because a crown foliage problem COULD BE MITES, I would isolate the affected plants until I was sure that it was something else. You don't want Mites spreading into your larger collection.

    Hopefully it's just a case of overfertilization ... or perhaps the PH is off for these plants.

    You might consider repotting the plants in the near future (to reset the PH), while you keep an eye on them to see what the problem might be.

  • terrilou
    9 years ago

    You surely have some nice looking plants on your stands!

    Other growers have reported brown spots on their variegated leaves. I don't know if there is one specific cause, but one grower said his disappeared when he used warmer water on his plants.

    Your crunchy plant could be too heavy fertilizer or too much light. Violets have an ability to adapt to a wide PH range but when water quality is off it could be a problem.

    Terri

  • Karin
    9 years ago

    I have the same issue with the brown speckles appearing on a variegated plant. It could be fertilizer (MG perlite) but I am thinking its likely something cultural that I haven't figured out yet - possibly too much light, or too cold... The leaf tips are fine on my plant though...

    As aegis said, most of your symptoms COULD point to mites. Crunchy could be too much light, or ferts, hairy could be too cold...
    Probably best to isolate, repot and observe.
    Change one thing at a time and give it a few weeks to show results.

    So the "m" word has been used, how about "c" for chloramine? Have you checked into you water supply to see if it contains them? Are you treating your water? (I found too many conditioner-drops were as bad, or worse, as not adding any)

    Good luck :-)

    Karin

  • shallons
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    I've not checked for chloramine and I believe it is a good possibility that's part of the problem. I looked up our water supply analysis on the utility's website and it shows a PH too high for violets - hence my switch to bottled water - but it didn't clarify whether it was treated with chloramine so I would have to have it tested to know about that.

    I've watched aquarium residents respond to water treatment and sometimes it's not pretty - overtreatment being as bad as no treatment. :( Plants take longer to show the effects of water quality but, clearly sometimes that's not pretty either. It is interesting that some of the plants are quite happy and others not at all.

    The hairy plant I've had for nearly a year and it's a furry critter but this extra crown fuzz is a recent development and isolated to this plant...I started fertilizing with Schultz about a month ago and the fuzz has appeared since then. I'm confident the issue is chemical / nutrient based. Nonetheless, I will move it out of reach of it's siblings for a while...and I will repot those I'm concerned about tomorrow. Thanks for that suggestion!

    What I'm hoping is that growers on the forum with greater experience than I, can offer suggestions for PH test and treatment products that work for the violets so I avoid treating with something that creates a new set of problems. Also, I know that extreme or long term over fertilization can cause permanent damage to the plant's tissue, so it will never recover normal growth.

    Given the appearance of the plants pictured, I wondered if anyone had an idea how long it might take for recovery...if I'm able to restore balanced conditions...I don't think they are too far gone for rejuvenation, but have no experience with this kind of healing.

    Thanks for the compliments ... I've learned a TON reading on this forum and much of my success is from your generous sharing! :)

    This post was edited by Shallons on Sun, Jan 11, 15 at 1:03

  • fortyseven_gw
    9 years ago

    Chlorine and chloramine are two different disinfectants. Local county or municipal water utilities are req 'd by law to disclose. The info is often available on the public utility website. Chloramine damage is severe, it rots most of the outer portions of a leaf. Usually, older leaves.
    You would know it if you had it. Spring water doesn't have chlorine or chloramine. This info has to be disclosed . Both chemicals have a scent and a taste. A search on the forum will dig up info on how to adjust pH as the topic comes up often.

    This post was edited by fortyseven on Sun, Jan 11, 15 at 21:03

  • marty-1
    9 years ago

    Dear Shallond,
    It's probably a cultural issue. No need to test and correct ph. You can check water and the mix(http://www.optimara.com/doctoroptimara/diagnosis/pottingsoil-phimbalance.html) if you want. How long since repotting, and what soil and fertilizer are you using? I would repot into the correct size pots after pruning, and also start new leaves and see what happens. Sometimes the damage is not reversible.
    Marty

  • shallons
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Joanne - I checked the utility site again and found an analysis page I had missed before. Our water is treated with chlorine and, if I read it right, the analysis says it leaves some residual chloramine...? That might account for the rusty leaf tips.

    Marty - some of my plants have been repotted in the last month, others it has been as many as three or four months. I can certainly go through that exercise again. If I remember correctly, the potting soil is Miracle Gro AV mix to which I added almost an equal amount of perlite. I believe both had fertilizer already added by the manufacturer. I've used Schultz liquid AV fertilizer. The last time I watered, I used bottled spring water.

    I'm planning to pick up some peat moss, perlite and vermiculite at the garden store so I can blend my own potting mix which will be free of fertilizer additives and switch to Dyna Gro liquid AV fertilizer. The Schultz has Urea Nitrogen, which I didn't realize is bad until reading on this forum. I've seen many suggestions for potting mix combinations / proportions and plan to do a roughly 50% peat, 25% perlite, 25% vermiculite - any suggestions there?

  • fortyseven_gw
    9 years ago

    Hi, It could just be the winter blahs that are affecting your plants in various ways. I have read on this forum that MG and Schultz are not the best, however, I use both. Also, some said that the amount of urea is negligible, not to worry about. While others with large collections won't use it and make their own mix. They don't use any of the commercially prepared mixes to protect the longevity of their plants.
    But I am still in the amateur league, so I just use the store bought brands.

    Personally, I don't use too much vermiculite as it tends to hold water and puts the plant at risk of crown rot if the soil stays too wet. The perlite is just the opposite, it keeps the soil porous and airy.

    Maybe try reading some of Karin (Froeschli"s) older posts as I believe she tried something called coir. People in my club use it, also.
    What you have in mind to try sounds good. Just experiment with the vermiculite. It depends on your humidity, etc. I use approx. 40% soil mix, (basically, peat), with 60% perlite and a very light dusting of vermiculite. I cut back on the fertilizer and go with plain spring water, perhaps refreshing the potting mix, when the plants look iffy.

    Those utility websites are written to be quite technical, it is sometimes difficult to discern what they are saying about the chemicals and combinations.

    Bottled spring water and some measure of humidity are good. I don't know, but the rust spots might be due to air dryness.

    The Optimara plant food is supposed to be a good one. I use it, switching off with the others.

    Maybe you already do this, the plants benefit from attention, being brushes and lightly washed off and dried now and then. Joanne

  • shallons
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    I'm a newbie amateur compared to many and haven't switched off fertilizers. The plants looked great for months and then started this discoloration, though the larger plants I repotted do seem to be improving. The younger plants are not due for a repotting based on time in the soil, length of neck or plant size, but I suppose it is possible that the fertilizer in the mix is used up and they have a ph or nutritional imbalance. I know our tap water's ph is between 7 and 8 - high for AV's. Could be a lot of things, I suppose.

    In any case, I'll mix up some (light on the vermiculite) potting medium and give all of them fresh soil this weekend. Also, I found an easy local source for Dyna Grow so will pick it up too.

    It is frustrating that the plants most effected by problems are either my favorites or chimeras (which are also favorites).

    I DO wish it was just winter blahs, but don't think it is. :( I'll give them all some fresh soil and balanced urea free fertilizer in spring water for a while and we'll see what happens. I realize that's a lot of change at once, but all of those things should be good changes. The one I'll be glad to do away with will be the bottled water - using the tap is easier as well as less expensive.

  • fortyseven_gw
    9 years ago

    Irina, who used to share on this forum, an expert, restarts her plants each year for some of the reasons you mentioned. Plants have cycles of growth and rest that are genetically programmed by Mother Nature. So, it is normal for plants to slow down in the winter. Plants also show their age differently. All the symptoms seem to be of aging. They have less light and less warmth, and as you noted, trying to increase their humidity can backfire during winter. By "winter blahs," I meant that the combination of reduced light and colder, fluctuating room temperatures seems to cause AVs to not be at their best. They will begin to improve in March or whenever spring is in your area. The problem is probably not the water you are using because the symptoms are different on the various plants. The symptom of ammonia damage from tap water is necrosis of older leaves showing signs first. The leaves turn black and die, starting at the edges.
    Freshening the potting medium helps.
    Some people put their plants on heat mats in winter months. When I grew on shelves with artificial lighting and used heating mats, my plants still knew it was winter and did not do well. I also usually cut down on fertilizing during winter when they are not growing as it does not seem to help them. It is a good time for grooming them while they take a rest. They do respond to your attention .
    Then they will be ready for a spring growth spurt once the outdoors warms up and the sun is stronger.

    Chimeras are " high maintenance." I think of them like overbred puppies that look beautiful but have genetic weaknesses. They can exhibit many unstable qualities.

    This post was edited by fortyseven on Thu, Jan 15, 15 at 18:28

  • shallons
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Thanks for the encouragement Joanne. I'm making the pilgrimage to the garden center tomorrow for potting medium supplies and Dyna Grow. I'm hoping they have some squatty 4" pots too, rather than the version that's taller than it is wide, which is what I have now. These are okay, but not ideal.

    Even though I have it on hand, I may follow your lead and hold off on the fertilizer or use it veeery sparingly.

    Sunday is potting day and we'll see how it goes after that.

    Our house temperature is pretty stable because our thermostat doesn't have day / night settings - it's always the same and the plants are in an upstairs room which is in the high 60's. They never get much light in there, but you're right - in summer they would at least get some bright light.

  • fortyseven_gw
    9 years ago

    Then it is a light issue most likely

  • dwarfmatergal61
    9 years ago

    I know exactly how you feel I lost everyone of my avs last winter and this winter is horrible too plus the place where I live now stays too cold for them and im glad im moving to south Carolina and wont have to worry much about the cold thanks to jesus our lord and savior....-

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