Hi,
I realize only too well the enormity of your job, however, it is necessary for us to know the name of a violet so we may enter it into the collection class of a show. Sometimes it is impossible for us to truly identify a plant even with the descriptions you have posted on the Optimara web site. With so many violets in the MVL and so many look alikes the task is daunting especially since all your descriptions don't have photos.
I appreciate the fact that you guarantee the leaves you ship to be labeled but many of us prefer to see the blossom in real life before we purchase it. At our local show we have ordered your minis in water wells for quite a few years now and depend that they are named correctly. I often wonder, however, if the labeling is accurate there since so many other plants are not labeled in places like Wal-Mart, Lowes and Home Depot.
Could you please clear up a question that I have about the Optimara violets. Are the many plants that are sold in the above super stores grown by Optimara in your greenhouses or are they shipped to large growers in plug form. I wonder if many of these are incorrectly labeled.
It still would be helpful if your greenhouse would slip in a stake to give us a clue as to what the plant may be. After all in order to win an Optimara rosette one must have the original stake exhibited with the plant according to your rules. Are we always expected to purchase from Selective Gardener just to get a correctly labeled plant.
Fred in NJ

Hi again,
I just reread you message and would like to comment about the Wisconsin which has 3 different blooms on it. If this plant were labeled aa O. Wisconsin and entered into a show the judges would not give it a ribbon simply because it does not conform to your description which is registered with AVSA.
Hopefully plants such as this are kept from violet growers because they are incorrect.

Optimara Wisconsin (6606) 05/25/1987 (Holtkamp) Single blue-purple. Dark green, plain. Standard

Plants of the type you have described should not be sold because they are unstable.
Fred in NJ

Hi, Fred;
I am reading and responding to both responses at once. You must realize that most of the violets that are shipped out are not being received by collectors, in fact, many people purchase them because they are "pretty" or would make a nice gift for mom; Those people aren't really concerned with the exact name of the variety, although they might access the website to see what they might have. We are exposing them to the AV world, putting plants out there that are easier to grow than they were 30 years ago, showing them that it is as easy to grow them as it is to kill them, and thereby helping the AV societies with new members and support. That is the good that I see coming out of that. It is impossible to have 100% stability in all the plants produced with a genus so heavily manipulated. Life has a unique way of getting those odd ones in there. I appreciate those oddities, the ones that do not conform to any set rules. That is exactly the reason why that odd Wisconsin is sitting on my desk, because I was attracted to the uniqueness of the flower. I don't want anyone else to have it. I shudder to think show rules should be applied to this particular plant. While they have their place, they are yet so rigid, unseeing, and unappreciative of anything outside the little box. Many collectors purchase leaves from selective gardener so they are assured of the properly identified plant and that stake that is coveted. Many are repeat customers, I am happy to hear. Curious how you would appreciate "Surprise"; variety #745, where the blooms vary from a solid blue with a silver rim on only 2 petals, to a pink with lilac mid-striping, to a pink with purple splashes, all on the same plant. I am always cleaning those out. Once a stock plant displays one color solid flowers, it is pitched. I am unsure what collectors call it, a sport, perhaps? Questions regarding souce of Superstores. Many large stores order directly from the greenhouses, while others order from people who purchase our bush or plug trays. I am trying to stress that there is no way to guarantee that a finished plant has the correct labeling. No matter who you purchase from, there is a margin of error on a finished plant. I understand that you need to have a correctly named and labeled plant to enter into shows, although I have only scratched the surface of the show world. That is why I suggested to purchase from selective gardener. I understand that sometimes the difficulty in ID'ing from online sources, as the pictures are filtered through the camera, PC for processing, online storage, and then ultimately through your PC, and this can lead to some changes in the colors. HOWEVER. If you are looking for, let's say, a bi-color, pink and white, 3 primary and 2 secondary petalled, pink rimmed. (go ahead, look it up) what would you say that it is? From the charts, you will see that the only flower that fits that description is Susi. Although Harlequin and Susi favor each other and are closely related in genetic sources, there are distinct differences. Aside from that, we are working on getting physical descriptions in words, which, as a palmer, I greatly appreciate. "Slipping a stake" in falls into the margin of error. I am thinking that I would rather take my chances with the website rather than depend that the hodgepodge of non-English reading/speaking people that handle the plants from week 1 as a leaf to around week 38 that these plants are shipped out would really have the right stake. My girls, who have been working with Optimara for 15+ years each, can identify the varieties pretty much by leaves, but even they error at times with the stakes. Also, please understand that we also have facilities in Zimbabwe, China, and Brazil and receive weekly shipments from at least one of them. There are sooo many hands involved from leaf to FP. So we are back to square one. So often when I walked into the generic super centers and was irritated by the labels calling palms "1 gallon tropical foliage", I didn't realize exactly why it was done like that. Now, working in the production end of the industry, I understand, and I modify my purchases accordingly: If I MUST purchase from a supercenter, or unreliable source, I am not particularly worried about the variety, but rather, am looking for general plants. HOWEVER: if I am worried about the particular variety, such as if it's going to be planted outside here in Nashville, I pay a little extra for that reassurance. For the collector, that is what it takes.

Thank you very much for your extensive work with Optimara.

Optimara products, when named correctly, present to us reliability with foliage. The grower is sure to have a nice, flat foliage, that grows in a wheel fashion which is our ultimate goal with show plants. And this happens with natural light or no matter where the Optimara sits on the light stands, center, left or right.

For the most part, flowers, once identified correctly do not sport often--that is, the solids. Naturally the bi-colors and fantasys will sport on ocassion as do the same from other hybridizers. Sports or mutants are not something that should be neglected since oftentimes the sports become chimeras or other excellent plants.

I do agree with Fred concerning using Optimaras at show. I suspect the rule of having the original name stake accompaning the plant for the Optimara collection would be directly from Optimara and not from AVSA rules. These ridged rules can and should be changed by Optimara.

Having Optimara products correctly named is of extreme importance to all growers who show plants.

I would also like to address the fairly recent method which Optimara has developed of naming a great plant such as Optimara Ontario then when it sports slightly, naming this Optimara Ontario II. Alabama II is another, Alaska II, etc. I would much prefer these plants with II attached to be given a different name once the sports are found to be sturdy for three generations.

Thank you for excellent work on excellent products.

Nancy from Montreal

Hi, I just joined! Thanks Nancy for letting "us" know.

Dear Lorriane,

I can see how its very difficult to keep plants properly labeled! I am a sucker who falls for the most instant-gratification and cheap buys - department/grocery store plants! At least most Optimaras have the sticker saying such, as opposed to not even knowing the hybridizer.
I have been kind of researching Optimara variety descriptions from several locations: the Optimara website, First Class 2 (MVL), and the US patent office website. Which of these are most accurate? I have found major discrepancies between all three, most especially at the Optimara Website. Are there any plans to update the site for more accuracy? I've even found some 70's patents that aren't even listed anywhere and I've never heard of. The AVSA does have a Vintage Violet Program for promoting vintage varieties. I definitely don't know much about business, but would it be good PR to promote older Optimara/Rhapsodie varieties with the AVSA? Also, again I don't know about feasibility, but would it be possible for Violet hobbyists to perhaps mail/e-mail someone such as yourself to help in identification since you can tell varieties nearly just by looking at leaves? Nancy and Fred - Hi! - I didn't know about show requirements for needing an original tag on Optimaras (you know I am no where near to showing anything!). Lorriane, would it be possible for a hobbyist to get a tag for maybe a small fee for an accurately IDed plant (such as one you or similarly knowledgeable person could attest to?)
Thanks for reading, I hope some of this is helpful.
Thanks,
Rebecca

Glad to be getting feed back, here. I do not know of the MLV/First Class 2. If you have a website for it, then please post it. I would imagine that perhaps those websites don't keep up with our improved varieties. We do offer discontinued varieties through the leaves through selective gardener. Now,they aren't the original versions of the improved varieties, such as Michelle, Ontarior, etc., but rather discontinued names, such as South Dakota, Sabrina, Arizona, etc. are offered, in addition to present production varieties. Also offered through Selective Gardener are our variegated Victorian series, Harmony, Affection, etc. You can feel free to email me at LMarbury@Comcast.net or Lorraine@Optimara.com with any pictures or questions. Or even mail via postal at 1501 Lischey Avenue, Nashville, TN 37207. I wouldn't mind at all to help you were I can. I have spoken to Mr. Holtkamp Jr.'s wife regarding the "required tag" for the show. She agrees that we should discontinue that requirement and will tend to it when he returns from Germany. I will be happy to bring this situation up to his attention. However, if you are looking for a name stake, and just have to have one feel free to send me an SASE with the specified name, and I will pop it into the mail for ya anything I can do to help, within reason. (on to the second posting) Regarding the Ontario II, etc. Those are improved varieties, not sports. For an example. Glacier was improved by Research and Development. When registered, it had to be Glacier II, not Improved Glacier (which wasn't allowed, not our doings). It is assigned a new serial number. It is not a sport, but improved for one quality or another, such as maybe not so prone to agrobacterium, or a fungus, or ships better as in a sturdier plant, or something. A sport of Glacier, that held the characteristic for more than 3 generations, was then registered as Hiroshige. So, the Alabama II, Ontario II, Alaska II, Glacier II, etc., are not sports as I understood the implication, but rather improved varieties. In the late 90's and early 2000's, most varieties were crossed with space babies to improve their quality. The sports that hold a characteristic for more than three generations are registered as another name. When I get these new stock plants in from R&D they are marked as "improved ______ " on greenhouse stakes, not "_______ II". I hope that I have cleared this matter up.

This angers me! It really does! As a consumer, I know that there are mistakes! I know that! BUT only 75% accuracy in labeling is very very poor by any standards. I know that mutations occur. But--Optimara should hold its standard as high as other nurseries in making sure it represents a true clone before sale. I micropropagate several different types of plants and know that mutations come without warning--BUT I still find it my duty and responsibilty to ensure that my plants are in fact true to type--Or they will be listed as mutants. I am highly saddened by your response. I am in fact disgusted with Optimaras apparent "Sale the plant not the product" attitude.

The African Violet is revered as being an easy to grow houseplant. One that is sold in almost every store. A lot of your revenue comes not from "one time owners"--but "lifetime enthusiasts". It is a great disservice being informed that 1 out of 4 plants I have purchased under the Optimara name are labeled WRONG! That is not acceptible. This needs to be fixed!

You asked on what you can do? Simply grow out the plants to ensure trueness. Or stop selling them under the Optimara name.

I cannot reiterate more, that in order for your plants to be held up to a high standard, those of us who are in fact members of the AVSA would not be able to trust in your labeling. This would take away our ability to show these plants that do have great qualities. We should not have to got to a "special place" to order our plants as you have suggested. If you "personally" pick the leaves, you obviously have the ability to ensure that propagation stock used in the mass production also has the qualities of the "named variety"...YOU DO HAVE THIS ABILITY--YOU ALREADY SAID SO! I know that mutations occur later on in production as well--But as an industry standard you need to grow out your plants to insure the clone. This may force costs to go up for some plants. But--my recommendation is you can still sell "non-blooming" plants without a label. Those of use who require names will be willing to pay a bit more for TRUE TO TYPE especially from your company.

I understand that a massive operation like yours is difficult to keep up with mutants...But the business you are in requires scrutiny. Meticulous labeling. If you were only selling AV, and not named violets I would not have an issue. But you are placing labels on plants without being sure of its characteristics.

Optimara needs to make a choice on what its goals are. Part of naming a violet is "selling the product". Interesting names, catchy series, etc sells the plant. Why even bother with a plant patent when the tag on the plant would not match that description.

You mention your website as being a help to determine the varieties. With AVSA in mind, this plant would still be considered as a "self named" variety and should not be shown in a show. As you are in fact NOT SURE! Also, the website that Optimara provides does in fact contain great helps, but I have found several issues particulary with the naming of varieties. In fact under two names, the same picture is shown. That tells me I can't trust your website. I know mistakes are going to happen. But how dare you tell us that we must rely on the website to name our plants...It doesn't work.

What the rest of us AV growers have to do now it determine if Optimara holds its standard high enough for us to grow your plants. I agree--your plants are some of the best---But without a name in the hobby--it is worthless. Unless of course we use your work in breeding(by using your plants as parents) to hybridize our own which we can register and keep its characteristics true.

I know I sound very harsh. I really do appreciate all that Optimara has done for the African Violet Community, and I really really appreciate your willingness to come here to be faced with these issues. I do THANK YOU! I REALLY DO! But I am frustrated.

I really hope that some good changes are made in the company that would insure its continued succes. But success for us as your buyers means that we need assurance of the prodcut that we buy. I am willing to buy an occasional plant that is mislabeled. It can happen, will happen and does happen! I know! But 1 in 4 mislabled is way too much of a gamble for my money!

Your comments would be appreciated!

Thanks again!

Ryan

Hi Lorraine,
Thanks for the time you have spent explaining the way things work at Holkamp. I am happy that Optimara is thinking about stopping the requirement for the original stake when a collection is submitted for the Optimara rosette. If you need info on the MVL/FC2 you can find it at the AVSA.org site. FC2 is the MVL on disk and can be purchased from AVSA for about 25 dollars. We who grow for show find it a necessary tool which we use to keep our plants identified and listed. There are already 263 Optimaras listed and registered as of March 2005. I am surprised that Holkamp does not have a copy on their computer system.
Please understand I am a supporter of Optimara AV's and in fact have my favorites and have kept them growing for years. Funny that you should mention Glacier because it's one of my favorite whites along with my most favored, Optimara Hawaii which I will never be without in my collection.
Sincerely,
Fred Hill

Hello all,

Lorriane, thanks for your fast response! First Class 2 (often refered to as FC2) is a computer program that the AVSA puts out for purchase ($25 for members). It contains the entire Master Variety List (MVL). That is, all the cultivars of african violets that have been registered/listed with AVSA, their descriptions, hybridizer, and date of registration. "Holtkamp" has something like 308 I think varieties listed in it. It is kind of an essential encyclopedia for hobbyists. To add entries, it is my understanding that the hybridizer must submit the appropriate info plus a fee ($5 or something). You can probably get more info from the AVSA website (www.avsa.org) and the people there are helpful and can probably work with you in anyway.
I am curious if you know any stats on violet consumers as hobbists vs. general population? I know at my local Lowe's and Walmart violets go fast, and it seems hardly any of those are going to hobbyists. It is true that many hobbyists aviod these violets because they often carry disease and I know that personally! (thrips! broad mites!). Still many cannot resist a pretty little noid (a common nickname for a "no-id") plant and enjoy it as it is. I think it is fair to sell plants with no tag to the masses who buy them. I also think it is fair to cater to Hobbyists, too. Thanks for mentioning the Selective Gardener as a place to get named Optimara. However, I find that $6 for two leaves a little steep. Are there other places to get named Optimaras? Does Optimara have its own "in-house store" (not sure what to call it) that could sell direct to interested people/groups? That way, middle-men mix-ups would be minimized.
And thanks for talking to Mrs. Holtkamp Jr. about the label requirements for show. I'm sure many Show-ers will appreciate this.
Thanks,
Rebecca

I forgot to mention:

The Optimara website is useful to "check" for trueness, not to determine what variety you have!

Ryan

Rebecca, I was going to ask that same question, the one about hobbyists versus folks who just pick them up because they're pretty and blooming. If those folks far outnumber the hobbyists, what can I say? Seems like as a business decision, it might not be worth the trouble for Optimara to improve

Dear Lorraine,

Did Optimara order you a flame proof suit to wear at the show? There might be so many hot words and tempers flaring that you could catch fire if you don't have at least something on that is flame retardant.

However, I have to say, it does sadden me that Optimara is choosing to no longer label their plants. It appears to me that Optimara is at a place where it has to decide if it wants to be associated with the Wal-Mart crowd or it wants to maintain its position as a long time reputable grower of African violets. My question is if the majority of your purchases come from the "gift for Grandma" crowd, why would you care that they end up mislabeled 25% of the time? Why not just stick the names in as you always have? The chances are, granny wonÂt care. The only time that mislabeling is an issue is for the people who really are African violet collectors, etc. That raises the question of how many calls, letters, or e-mails did Opitmara get per year about incorrectly labeled plants. From what your saying, only one in a thousand or maybe several thousand would notice or care. So, in to my ears, it really sounds like Optimara is trying to reduce the cost of production, not really being concerned with the incorrect labeling.

You asked for suggestions, so I have several.

First, I would suggest that Optimara put together a website that offers really good plant identification. Even the old ones you donÂt sell anymore so that people who collect the old ones can even identify the ones they have.
(For a very small investment, you could make huge gains in public relations, and possibly brighten OptimaraÂs currently tarnished reputation.)

Second, with this up-to-date web site you could offer people who get incorrectly labeled plants, corrected labels for the price of a self-addressed stamped envelop. (Have them send you the incorrect label, in order to get the correct one as proof of purchase.) LetÂs face it, the person bought the violet because they liked the looks of it, is not about to give up their violet just because the name is wrong. They just want the correct name. Here again, the PR value would outweigh the irritation of sending corrected labels. And be really positive PR for the company.

Third, if the cost of labeling the plants is really prohibitive, sell correctly labeled plants on your store site (Selective Gardener). That would be a place that collectors could count on getting what they want----correctly labeled plants. (But, I would price them competitively. I just bought a bunch of the space babies for $9.99 (big pots) and Selective Gardener sells them for something like $24.50. (Probably plus shipping.) ThatÂs a big difference.) Anyway, making labeled plants available at a reasonable price to: people who really care, clubs, and groups could buy Optimara a lot of positive PR and wouldnÂt be competing with Wal-Mart. It would also be a selling point for the club to have correctly labeled violet that are hard to come by.

Fourth, another possibility is to create two lines of plants. One for the K-mart crowd and one for the nursery trade. Do what you do now for the K-mart crowd and for the nursery trade offer the option of slightly higher priced plants that are labeled. (Work hard to make sure they are the ones that are labeled correctly.) I'l bet most collectors would pay an extra dollar or two for a correctly labeled plant.

Lastly, I have to add that I will not buy unlabeled plants unless they are really pretty and dirt cheap. I just bought 6 for $1.99 each from Home Depotand, and just for the record, they came from Oberlin, Ohio--- probably not Optimara. On the other hand, I just put in an order from a reputable violet grower for around 80 dollars and recently went to a show and bought about 70 dollars worth of labeled plants. If I go to the national, I will probably buy more, but probably not OptimaraÂs if they arenÂt labeled correctly.

Just my two cents.
Wear something flame resistant,
Trish

Rebecca, I was going to ask that same question, the one about hobbyists versus folks who just pick them up because they're pretty and blooming. If those folks far outnumber the hobbyists, what can I say? Seems like as a business decision, it might not be worth the trouble for Optimara to improve on the accuracy of their naming.

But how about this just as an idea? I'm not totally sure why having the plants come from non-English speaking countries would be a huge problem. Brazil and Zimbabwe use the same alphabet; they would only have to copy the names, not understand what they mean. Is it that the stakes keep falling out? Maybe if the stakes are a problem, what about putting a label on the actual pot or flat? Would that help anything at all?

Well, I've never seen an Optimara sold at any store I went to with any kind of tag at all. I have bought them labeled from smaller growers, and I trust them a bit more because they generally grow them out and check them to description before selling. So I never really thought of a problem of not being able to show my Home Depot-bought plants because they never had names anyway, and there are so many varieties that look alike on Optimara's website, I don't even bother trying to assign a name to my no-id.

So I don't see a big problem with this arrangement: Don't label the ones at stores if you can only provide 75% accuracy because it's misleading for those who show (and may spend months growing out a plant only to discover on show day that it must be disqualified because it's improperly named) and for those who trade (whose trading partners might be upset that they traded and got something they didn't want). Just be sure that the ones you sell through Selective Gardener are accurate, though I personally don't intend to buy from them because they are way overpriced; we can get plenty of other named varieties from other hybridizers for 1/2 the price that Selective Gardener charges for their Optimaras. And sell the ones to the smaller growers as named varieties who, hopefully for their own reputation, will double-check to be sure you sent the right thing. And I'm okay.

Thanks for coming here and talking with us.

OK I AM HOT! LOL---

When I bought a Chevy Nova, my first car, I was under the complete assumption that is was a chevrolet. Come to find out--the motor was made by Toyota. Fact of the matter here is--I had no idea what my Chev Nova actually was. It is misleading!

I agree that many buy AV without caring what the name is. In fact--many dont even look at the tag--they just throw it away. I have done it myself before. I could care less about Optimara selling AV without their names. But if OPTIMARA sticks a name tag on a violet the consumer should get what they have paid for. They did not buy just an African Violet, they paid money for a Named Violet. THIS IS WHERE I GET UPSET! I SHOULD NEVER PAY FOR SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN MISLABELED! Again I accept a few acceptions as I know that mutations occur but this should be taken into account and the best resources used to insure a higher percentage of truity then 75%. That is a C in school almost a D. UNACCEPTABLE! ABSOLUTEY NOT ACCEPTED!

Kinda like my Chev Nova---but it was actually a Toyota.

Back to the basics--Optimara's website should never ever be used to Identify a plant. NEVER! Colors of the flower can be decieving in a picture and description. A flower that normally blooms pink for example a light pink, under cooler conditions will bloom a darker pink. This alone, even though it is the same plant is reason enough that the site cannot be used to identify. A plant that has a small colored edge on the flower petals may be non existent under certain conditions, again another reason why not to go by the website. If you take and observe the flowers on one plant, you will notice just how different some of the flowers are ON THE SAME PLANT! This DOES NOT MEAN IT HAS MUTATED. This just shows how variable a True Named Variety can be. And I am talking about a true variety. A named variety that is proven true will at times show different coloration in different conditions and will in fact bloom true at different times.

African Violets are described by foliar types as well. This is a good indication of variety because they don't change that often. However there are very very few foliar types so it still can only narrow your name down to ummm 10% of all the varieties out there.

The only way to Name your violet, is to obtain a NAMED VIOLET. THE ONLY WAY! There is no alternative. Because assumptions are for the most part--WRONG--even though the description seems to fit! NEVER ASSUMPTIVELY NAME YOUR VIOLET!

In short(or long) The Optimara Website is not a solution to this problem, nor can it ever be. I am grateful for the great information found there, but it should never be used to NAME A VIOLET! Pictures and such are great to have as well. I like looking at pictures, but again it can give me an idea of what my "newly purchased Named AV" should look like. Not what my newly purchased violet is! Information on the website should also include the information that is included on FC2. I know that a huge number of people dont know what this is, but if you are big into violets, without such information, the site renders itself worthless in descriptions. The website includes cultural information that is great, wonderful and high reccomended by me. It is great--but it should not include verbage ANYWHERE WITHIN or REFERENCES to it as its ability to ID a plant!

Grandma AV's are great! I have been a grower of several-who knows where it came from violets--for several years. Some of my favorites have not a name attached to them. A beautiful violet in the store will draw me to it-and a purchase can be made by myself, fully aware that it is not named. Big Woop! I was after the flower anyways. But when I see a setup of Optimaras that aren't in bloom, those of us AV guru's can see a named and know what is should look like. I have bought several AV's because I already knew the name, and had seen or heard good things about it, even though the plant in front of me had no bloom. I am upset, that I cannot trust the labels, to contunie my spontaneous buying of an African Violet from Optimara unless it changes it labeling proceedures.

Does mislabeling affect the "average buyer"? Absolutely. Optimaras are well known for their ability to grow in home conditions and bloom very well. Part of Optimara is in its name. I like labels just as much as everyone else does. I hate the expense associated with labels on items such as Clothing, Cars, Forbes, etc. Everything that is of good quality sooner or later will pick up a label. Optimara is known for its plants, and if a buyer has bought simply ONE PLANT, and it does well, and it has the name OPTIMARA on it, the consumer will attach that as GOOD. I too--attach that label as good. When the AVG BUYER then returns to the point of sale to purchase another plant they may very well search out the Optimaras, and chances are in todays age the will have looked on the internet at Optimaras website and seen the beautiful varieties available, but if things go as they are--They will be misled when they make that exciting purchas of another plant.

OPTIMARA IS A GOOD LABEL! It does affect the avg buyer, the collector, and those who Grow to Show. It is important. It is important that this new age of quick information distribution remains respectful to Optimara as long as progress is made.

It is fine with me to have a site where a leaf can be purchased and it be true regardless of the price! BUT--that isn't the issue! The issue is buying a Named Plant that ISN'T TRUE!

Lets see if I have more to say! Ha ha!

Lorraine--(THANK YOU)---I am venting I know--BUT I APPRECIATE THE PR YOU ARE PROVIDING! This is simply an issue that has been with Optimara and the African Violet Community for years. I hope others that are reading this as well as yourself know that I love Optimara! I hope that this will be progressive and not digressive. I hope that the aspirations among your company may be high to maintain confidence in the product you represent. It is my desire that as we move forward compromises on both sides can be made. This will assure our continued enjoyment and sharing in the great hybridizing success that Optimara has. Optimara is such a source for great mutations due to its program years ago when seeds were exposed to radition in space. We, as a plant community, have entrusted in this company to provide us with continued breakthroughs and excitement. But unless we know we get what we think--how can we?

With asperations for commitment from your company--

Ryan

Lorraine,

As you see, some of us feel very strongly about correct names for African violets. Some of us are calmer but won't buy Optimaras unless they are named. Some of my noids have fantastic flowers--no other like them, yet are unnamed and will remain so because it is not a good habit to name a plant by a photo.

The color blue has many hues and a mistake may be costly for growers who show. I have a NOID which is a white star with large blue band around all petals. No other flower in AVSA looks like this one yet it is unnamed and can never be used in a show, can never win prises as it should and could, although I may be able to use it in the design section of the show where many Noids are used for their beauty.

I am a writer and wrote an article on identifying plants by photos. It happened that two of my plants bloomed at the same time and I was able to compare them. I had identified a noid by pictures. But at home compared to the truly named plant there were many differences. One difference was the hue of the color. One was a red/purple hue while the other was more red/blue. Foliage was slightly different as well; one with green round foliage while the other was darker green with more pointed shape. I would never recommend the identifying of a named plant by a picture.

Thanks again for your devotion to the African violet. I have over 200 varieties, each named. I have about 5 noids that are just as beautiful but can never be seen by the public--an unloved cousin whose beauty will remain hidden because she has no name!

Nancy

Hi,
In July 1999, AGGS (American Gloxinia and Gesneriad Society) held our annual convention in Nashville, hosted by the local chapter, The Tennessee Gesneriad Society. On our field trip we visited Holkamps. Although I was president of the society at the time, on the field trip I was just another conventioneer. We were treated to a tour by Mr. Holkamp. He took us from one greenhouse to another, giving us a demonstration of how the plants are propagated, sorted, and grown on. We also got to see the testing greenhouse, where we stood up on a high railing looking down on the many benches of new hybrids. The tour was excellent and Mr. Holkamp was very interesting and gracious. Having walked through the huge greenhouses with millions of little plants growing side by side, I have no problem understanding the enormous difficulty of labeling. The endless sea of plants is something every violet grower should see to appreciate. There is a vast difference between the mass growing of AVs versus a small mail order operation. I am grateful that Holkamps does introduce well tested and selected varieties that are named. Another company doing the same thing at this scale could easily opt not to even name their varieties, let alone go to the considerable trouble of growing on and testing for stability.

Perhaps in the future, Optimaras could be genetically labeled--carrying a marker that could be used to ID each leaf or plant fragment to its correct ID. I know that such markers are now used in the horticultural industry. How they are read, though, is something I know nothing about.

Thanks for posting on the Garden Web. Your posts have been most fascinating. Also, if you are interested in a very nice local plant society to check out, I can personally attest to the Tennessee Gesneriad Society--they have some wonderful, friendy and knowledgeable members.

Jon Dixon

Jon and others,

I have to disagree to a certain extent with you! I have a degree in both Horticulture and Crop Biotechnology. I am very well versed in the millions of plants that can be produced quickly.

The issue is "Selling a plant, with a label, that is incorrect"!

If the label is only 75% correct, those plants shouldn't be labeled with a name. I wouldn't mind if the plant was labeled as a Optimara Hybrid. But it should not have the name on the label, if 25% of the time it will be wrong or not true to type.

I agree that the Holkamps are wonderful people. They have done amazing things for our hobby.

HOWEVER--Nice people, doesn't mean an honest product if 25% of the labeling is not true.

Again I reiterate--the issue is selling a plant with a label that is wrong.

Since Lorraine told us that they have stopped selling a lot of plants that are labeled I must admit--that is great that is a start! That is what needs to happen. But when a label is placed on the plant, it needs to be correct. This is the issue.

About genetic markers---You must extract the DNA--easy process---then a few other processes---then run the sample on a gel electrophoresis to compare against the known true plant. It is a simple procedure. However African Violets can mutate rapidly. You would have to test every single plant to insure it has not mutated. This would not be feasible for Optimara. Good idea, and great to use--but not in this case.

What other nurseries do in the horticulture trade is they have to grow out the plant to make sure the leaves, blooms, etc etc are not mutated from the original plant. This is practiced throughout the industry. Particularly when the plant is sold under a NAME. It technically is not legal to sell a product under a name that is not true. For plants, because of mutation, some "off types" are to be expected, but the majority of the off types will be culled while growing out the cultivar, only very few will slip through--and that is acceptable. It doesn't take that long to grow out the plants. In fact, on Optimaras own website you can see the time it takes for their plants to be "finished". They know how long it takes their cultivars to bloom. Because they have this information, and it is public because it is on their website, I then hold them accountable to label their plants correctly.

I agree with you that it is a difficult task! There is not doubt. Even I, at times get my own labels mixed up when propagating. But because of this, I have to under scrutiny, not label that leaf or plant with a name or else it would not be fair for others as I sell or trade the plants.

With my experience in mass production of Hostas by micropropagation I am very well aware of the mutations that occur. I know the challenge that it represents all to well. I understand the concern that Optimara has, but I am also a consumer that is discouraged with the labeling practices.

The primary concern here is: PLACING AN INCORRECT LABEL ON A PLANT!

Many nurseries still sell their off type plants, in fact some of the mutants are even better then the original. These mutant can be patented, propagated and sold. Hostas and African Violets, both plants which I am very familiar with mutate often. And this is to the advantage of us growers and hobbysist as we can get new varieties. Once a plant is mutated however--it is not identicle to the original and should never be sold as such. I am fine with giving it a slightly different name. In fact I can provide a very long list of new varieties of African Violets and Hostas that came from mutating from another variety. Because this is such a standard, I again expect Optimara to meet or exceed the expectations of others in the industry.

Ryan

I appreciate most of your feedback, as it helps me better see the issues out there, and to be able to try to make some corrections, if my position will allow it. It also allows me to bring ideas up to the ownership for solutions, instead of just functionless griping. I will address to each of the responses by name, so that each will know that I am talking directly to them.
To LadyBrasa/Rebecca: I greatly appreciate the information on First Class 2, and will attempt to get one before the end of the [school] quarter, merely for my own knowledge. I have logged into my favorites on my home pc the AVSA website already. To be perfectly honest, we have never made much money off of hobbyists. The majority of the money made, or at least that pays the bills comes from the general population. The lack of tags was in response to the constant issues of mislabeling. This happened long before I ever came here. Hobbyists were complaining of the improper naming, so Holtkamp decided to eliminate the tags all together, and provide assistance by means of the website. We offer another alternative to the hobbyists to try to make them happy. It's a proven fact that you can only please some of the people some of the time, and none of the people all the time, which you will see later to other responses. The general population pays the bills. So we modified the production as such. Perhaps $6 is steep for two leaves, I honestly can't say. I don't work in the business end. I know that if I want the exact palm tree that I am looking for to fit my situation, I pay extra to be assured of the exact species and its proper condition and shipping to me. We do not have an in-house sales, per say, although we have people stop by and buy directly from sales people in the office. Please be assured that I will stay on top of the label requirements until I get a definite answer from above. I appreciate your constructive criticism and am doing the best that I can to correct the situations.
Mwedzi: Again, the general populations purchase by far more violets than the hobbyist does. This has been the case since the Holtkamps came into business. For some reason, the purity of the names coming in from over seas is not always clean. For example: I refuse to take plants for stock plant from anything but my own leaves. That way, I am eliminating another way my stock could be tainted. In the US, we use labels on the bush trays (which are where my leaves are stuck) along with tags. I am unsure what they do over there, for I haven't visited. We do work hard to try to receive only pure stock, but there is only so much that you can do. The 75% accuracy rate was only a rough estimate. I can feel the frustration in buying a plant that has been mislabeled, which is far greater than buying a plant that has no name at all. The ones through Selective Gardener are acccurately ID'd and named. I greatly appreciate your ideas, and have printed it out to talk again with Mr. Holtkamp when he comes back from Germany.
Pdoug1952/Trish: I am seeing that I might need a flame proof suit. I am not too thrilled to be associated with the larger stores, either, but we are trying to make money. If you work in the horticulture/floriculture industry, you will konw, then, that sometimes you have to scrape just to make ends meet. And let's face it, there are other more versatile and popular plants/flowers out there that are easier and more profitable to grow. So if Wal-mart offers a big contract, it would be a wise business decision to take it if the odds are weighed. We don't stick the names like we used to because we were getting too many complaints about mislabeling. To correct this situation, we stopped the labeling for the general shipping. You are absolutely correct: the only time mislabeling is an issue is for the people who really are African Violet collectors, etc. That is why we offered an alternative. If you want Susi? then through selective gardener, you will have a 100% chance of getting a Susi leaf/plant. There is no reducing the cost of production, it only rises with the inflation of raw material rates, shipping, labor, medical, etc. We are working on an updated website that will also offer written descriptions of the flowers. We discussed about using three forms of color lighting to be able to create a universal color discription. I have already offered correct labeling for the people that send an SASE to Optimara/1501 Lischey Avenue/Nashville, TN 37207/ C/o Lorraine... I have offered twice I think to do this, on my own time. And I really don't care to receive the old label. I am happy to help. We do sell correct labeled plants on the store site, Selective Gardener. I have no say in the pricing. I just make sure when I get a leaf order, that I am harvesting the correct plants with the most ideal foliage and blooms that I can find in my stock. We already offer two lines of plants: one for general stock, sold as Blues, Bi's, Lt. Blues, etc., and one for Selective Gardener. Oberlin, Ohio is John VanWingerden, who buys his stock from us. Thanks for Your comments. I appreciate how they were worded.
JonD/Jon Dixon: I greatly appreciate you!!!!!!!! I am a fresh member of the local Gesneriad Society as of this year. I have not heard of the genetically labeled idea. Could you possibly send me this information (if you have any), for this interests me greatly! I appreciate your gentle push to the Gesneriad society. I was going to join the local AVSA chapter, but I have appreciated the more botanical, experimental, and inquisitive nature of the Gesneriad people verses the socialites of other clubs. Jonathan Ertelt has been a great help in my search for improvements, and is a most fascinating person. We are working on a Sinningia speciosa to market as an heirloom, which are from seeds that were stored for over 25 years. It is a small adventure for Mr. Holtkamp Sr., who I admire dearly, and is getting up there in age and health. I personally welcome you back, and would enjoy to give anyone a tour to show what we do here. Thanks so much for your support!
Robitaillenancy/Nancy: I can appreciate what you wrote about ID'ing plants by color/photos. The hues of a color in sunlight, versus room light, versus photo lighting are so different, and we are working on ways to correct that. It is my hope to continue to work towards a new website that will still offer pictures, for shapes, but also a more unified code for color, and physical descriptions.
FredChill: Fred Hill: Thanks for the information. Like I said earlier, I will attempt to purchase this by the end of the school quarter. Glacier is one of your favorites, but its sport, Hiroshige is mine, which also makes a wonderful 6 incher. I have had a hard time with Hawaii in the greenhouse, with only one plant left, which I am carefully tending to. That is one of the reasons why it left production.
Last, but not least: Ryferre/ Ryan: I am going to be very careful how I respond to you. You seem as passionate about AVs as I am about palm trees, especially temperate/Cold hardy palms. So as I read through your first, second and third postings, I am just going to typee what comes to mind. I am surprised that you weren't outside the chevy dealership/manufacturer picketting, because I feel the venom in your responses. I am surprised not to see you picketing outside Optimara, or places that sell unlabeled Optimara plants. It is because of your response: "...if Optimara sticks a name tag in .... they paid for a Named Violet." that we do not name the general production anymore. So, to make you happy, you will not buy a "MISLABELED" violet again. I see a lot of complaining, but I am not seeing any more light shed on the issue that will help solve it. We removed the labels from the general violet production so that you would not receive a mislabeled violet, and then offered accurately ID'd and labeled plants through another source. It doesn't seem that we can win. I agree with you completely in ID'ing a plant through pictures alone, for the color is never accurate unless there is a universal code established. Perhaps that is something that can be worked on with other agencies in coordination with Optimara. Photos are, however, good for flower shapes, pattern of markings, and leaf shapes and proportions. Most bi-Colors will show the variation under different lights and conditions, as you stated. (3rd posting) All these "other nurseries" that were mentioned buy a lot of stock from us. I am unsure what you meant by "...Optimaras apparent 'Sale the plant not the product' attitude." ?? The general public does not think that AVs are easy to grow. Most uninformed people shy away from them because they don't realize that they are easy to care for with a few tricks. Most of our revenues do not come from 'lifetime enthusiasts', but rather, not the 'one time owner', but the general public. You keep saying that the labeling issue needs to be fixed, but you don't offer real and viable solutions. I do grow out the plants. My stock is allowed to flower the first time before it is harvested. Every week, I walk through and look for "undesirables" in the stock, MY stock here in the US. You keep saying that you "should not have to got (go) to a 'special place' to order our plants as you have suggested' ... but I do that every time I order a palm tree. Granted, Lowe's and Home Depot carries what may be a palm that would grow in this area, but they don't pay particular attention to how it was grown, how it was shipped, how it was cared for, where was it grown, what stock did it originate from. So, I go to other sources where I am going to pay more to be assured that my palm was grown exteriorly, that it was properly shipped with care in the proper containers and protection, and to be sure that it is the right species and variety. That is how the plant world works. We are not a small time operation pumping out 200 cases a week. We are 500,000 square feet of plants in a variety of phases, trying to make a living. You stated yourself: "This may force costs to go up for some plants" ... so why not go to selective gardener? it's just another click, and you get exactly what you want???????? When the general production is shipped out, they are "AV-blue", "AV-Bi" etc... when you go to selective gardener, they are "Ontario", "Cora", "Modesty" (another personal favorite). We are not placing labels on any of them going out ... except for those to Selective Gardener... so you shouldn't have any problems then, because you said it yourself: "not named violets I would not have an issue". Pretty much of the posting is repitious. It doesn't seem that you do appreciate what Optimara/Holtkamp Greenhouses has done and does do for the AV community, because if you did, I would think that you would yell, and scream into a pillow, slap it if you will, then turn around and type something that I can work with, because after reading a bit, I sure had to go take a jog so as to be as constructive as possible. I can work with constructive critisim. Before I came here, they offered labels on the plants. You screamed that the labels were incorrect. No matter what they did to correct it, it wasn't working, and your screams were loud and continued. Grasping for a solution, they removed the labels, but continue to offer properly ID'd and labeled plants from another source. But yet, the complaining is still heard. What is it that I can reasonably do for you? I invite you to come here, and tour that facility. Please. See what is here. See what we are up against, and then offer a solution. We want to help. We want our product to be truly appreciated in actions and attitudes, not by worthless words typed on a page. You have wanted changes, and the changes were made with realism in mind. Perhaps not the way you intended, but they were made. So come forth with some solutions. Work with me! Give me something to realistically work with. Please. I truly hope my comments are appreciated. It's easy to sit back and complain, but takes effort to protect what you love. I don't want to be confrontational. I want to be part of the solution, not the problem. What part do you want to be?

Lorraine,

This is slightly off the "hot topic," however, it is a good time to ask.

I am from Canada and have certain places to go for Optimara products. Is there anywhere in Canada that has Optimara plants with name tags accompaning them?

Thanks very much.

Nancy

***off-topic***
Nancy, you have a white with a broad blue band? This is what I was saying was one of my ideal flowers on another forum (not to be named here, of course). I was looking for the blue and white version of a flower like Pirate's Treasure. Very wide blue band (not variable blue markings, no blue eye), and preferrably ruffled. Is it like that?

**On-topic**
Lorraine, I see your point. Do we have to continue to talk about naming/labeling, or can we just talk about anything we want? I want more trailers! I'm in love with the look of them, but find not much variety in them. Just thought I'd take the opportunity to tell anyone connected to a hybridizer that. Same goes for all you other hybridizers reading out there! More trailers, please!

Good vibes to everyone in this healthy, happy, hobby of growing pretty plants!

Lorraine,

By all means, I can be bitter with words written, but in reality I do infact respect both your kind ways of answering our(and my venting) concerns/questions.

Let it be known, that "I" really really appreciate that you have in fact stopped labeling plants! That is at the core of my argument, although well hidden. Thanks.

Under the same note, it would be nice to still have labeled plants available at local stores. (maybe a few per tray could be labeled with a name?????---I know that there is a lot that goes into marketing and I will not confess to be a marketer.) Also, I watch as my local stores AV rack deplete very very quickly, most of them Optimaras, maybe one entire tray could be labeled? And I know this would raise costs, and may have issues with the contracts the company has. So I do know that is a lot easier said then done. And yes, most of those violets get bought by people who have them until they kill them not really knowing what they even were. I guess--what I am getting at--it has been very nice having the ability to buy Optimara plants at local stores that are named, and it is sad to see that change.

Lorraine--I really appreciate the service that Selective Gardner presents us with. In fact, I have a really good friend who loves Optimara Arizona and is looking for it---you may have my name show up on an order list soon(I hope that you can see the humor in that). My "picketing"(I like your verbage) stems from the "old" way of mis-labeled plants bought in a store. I understand all to well from my other hobbies that you must search the world over to get what you want---and not just at a local store. What I ment by "you should not have to go to a special place" was simply the following--If I buy a labeled plant I expect it to be what it says, I shouldn't have to go to another source to by the same plant if it is already available at a local store. If Walmart has Susi(the tag says), why should I have to go to Selective Gardener to get it when it is right down the street. That is what I was referring to. Again--as with Arizona, since it is not at Walmart, etc, I will gladly go to Selective Gardener and pay the price. I will disagree with some that the cost of the leaves from Selective Gardener is expensive as some of my plants have cost me anywhere from 50-200 dollars.

Lorraine--This topic is being discussed by several of us in this posting in another forum, and I think the "general consensus" is WE LIKE YOU AND THE PRODUCTS YOU REPRESENT! And I think some are kinda squinting at me through their eyes going "WHAT IS RYAN THINKING TALKING TO LORRAINE LIKE THAT!"(I really am a nice guy who loves sharing leaves, growing plants, and having fun)! Ha ha

I owe you a candy bar! Ha ha! You are greatly appreciated!

I don't believe you will need flame retardent attire. In fact I am jealous that you are attending! I wish I could be there myself. (I would even walk up and shake your hand). I think you will find that the violet community are some of the nicest people you will ever meet, and they will jump at the opportunity to meet someone like you. Likewise--it is good to see you here in gardenweb.

It isn't often that we get to vent to a PR..

Wouldn't it be nice if everything we wanted just was there in a "poof"! But realistically it isn't.

Some thoughts on how to improve Named Plant Availability--
1. Label plants that are very distinct from others(this way when we do purchase it, we can be assured that it is that variety)
2. It is nice to know that they are Optimara, by including something in a --not labeled--- plant that does in fact show it is an Optimara. I like Optimara plants and it is always nice to see Optimara sale displays.

But the help I think that would be most useful stems from production--which of course I have not seen yours--So I have some questions for you--

You mention that your stock plants are true because you let them bloom first. How many generations are grown before you check the stock plants again?

Is the potting up done in a separate greenhouse? How are the plants then labeled when they are separated and placed into plugs? What conditions exist that could allow for plants like Susi to be labeled as Arizona(for example).

Is the mislabeling occuring because of mostly mutations, or simply mis-labeled(label mix up)?

There are different methods of potting a plant. I am under the assumption that you use plugs(in the beginning) then you pot up before sale. Do you/Did you label the plants before or after the plug was put in the new pot? In other words is the pot was filled with potting mix and labeled and then the plug placed in the pot or the plug planted and then labeled.

Lorraine--Thanks again! Have no fear of me---I really am sorry if I sounded so "flaming mad"--really I am just concerned for the "ease of availability" of the plants. It has been so nice in the past and it is difficult to see it change. In todays--"you have to make money or else your company goes bankrupt"--I know some changes have to be made to stay out of the red.

With sincere desire to help and not be a "useless writer of words"

Ryan

I am happy to see that this forum is visited and posted on frequently, so that I don't have to go digging to find it (ha-ha). Ryan: I appreciated very much when I got home from class this evening to read your post. Thank-You. The extra trays with all labels, I am sure that the Buyers would not want to pay the extra money for, but that is between the sales people and the Buyers. But I will be happy to see if they would perhaps suggest for an additional price, accurately labeled plants. Something that you might want to consider, is perhaps talking to the stores yourself and suggesting that they request some correctly labeled plants. Who knows, with both of us working on both ends, perhaps we will find that happy joining in the middle...? Here goes with your questions, as I read, I will answer. I let my stock plants bloom the first time before before they are ever touched. When it is determined that they are indeed accurate to the name, they are entered into the harvest record computer, and broken into batches. For bi-colors, usually 3 batches, 1 batch harvested every other week. For blues, lt blues, high-demand bi's, lilacs, whites, pinks, and reds, usually they are higher quanities broken into 6 batches. They are on 6-9 month rotations to be replaced; 6 months for the weaker varieties, such as Susi, Harlequin, Jamaica.. while others that are tougher or great producers, are left on a 9 month rotation, such as Chico, Cora, Millennia... So, inevitably, these varieties will flower again before harvested. Allowing me to see what they are doing. I walk through once a week to check for pests, problems such as a leak in the greenhouse, dieback, rot, etc. I am responsible for the watering, so I am also able to get more on a personal level with the plants. I am usually the one who harvests the Space Babies' leaves. The process: The stock plants are housed and harvested in Greenhouse 3B with two plants to a 4in container, 10 containers to a tray. The only exceptions to this is Renoir, and several of my discontinueds. Then they are planted in 3A in bush trays until they mature, 60 leaves per bush tray, 30 trays per bench. After they mature they are brought out of 3A and have different destinations. Some companies purchase bush trays, some purchase bare-root babies, some will go into plug trays, and some will be used as stock plants. At this time, shipments of bare-roots are introduced from China, Zimbabwe, and Brazil. They will be planted in plug trays, 60 to a tray and marked with a "C" for China, "Z" for Zimbabwe, "B" for Brazil, and a "U" for us. They are planted by benches, with 30 plug trays per bench. A "Z" bench consists only plants from Zimbabwe. They are planted according to name, and marked. If there is a "mixed" trays, consisting of left over babies, they will be at least of the same color and are unmarked. Once the plugs are planted, they will return to 3A until mature. Mature plug trays are pulled out and will be destined for buyers, stock plants, or potting up. Stock plants will only come out of US plug trays, if I have to use plug trays. I choose to do this because I am more certain of the purity of the stock from which those leaves, and then plugs came from. If destined to be potted up, they are taken to Greenhouse 4 and potted up. There, they will be spaced three times for the duration, and some will be moved to Greenhouse 5, and some to parts of Greenhouse 2 and 1 if space becomes an issue during certain times of year. In the previous labeling method, when the plug trays came to section four, it was none approximately how many plugs there were, and calculated by the number of trays. That was programed into the machine, and the they were planted and then filtered through the machine that would blow the names on the containers. Inaccuracies would come in these manners: perhaps a mislabeled plug tray, perhaps a miscount of how many plug trays, a misprogramming of the computer, perhaps mixed stock from Z, C, or B...that was when the labeling was with a blown on label on the container. Sticks.. even my Cambodians will misread a number, they don't read read English... inverting numbers. I can't think off the top of my head, but there have been times. I do my best to skirt these issues, by making sure that they have more than enough stakes/sticks to plant, but it does happen. Most of the people that work here do not read/speak English. There are Laotians, Cambodians, and variety Hispanics, mainly Guatelmalans and Mexicans. A large portion of the mislabeling is mislabeling; however, some of it is to mutation, such as what I was discribing with the Wisconsin mutant that is on my desk. You will not see Arizona anymore on the shelves, for it is a discontinued plant. However; you can still get the leaves through Selective Gardener, because I maintain some stock on my discontinued table for several reasons: for people like you that would be asking for it, and for a record of the genetic information. I appreciate the change in writing style tremendously. And like I said earlier, I will be happy to help where I can, where my position allows me to help. For I am, after all, not the one calling the shots.
Mwedzi: I will see what I can find out regarding the trailers.
Nancy: I am unsure if there are or are not labeled plants in Canada. I will see what I can find out for you as well

Lorraine,

Thanks! From what I read, I would not say that the problem relies in mutation. It looks like the same plant is used for several months if I read that correctly. Obviously mutations occur--but like I said that is acceptable as it is inevitable.

As for me, I have not yet seen(or at least noted) a container with the name on it. I have only looked at the tags! Hmmm---I am going to have to check some of my pots soon. Ha ha. I always repot in my own soil after buying but I will reuse the plastic pots after disinfecting for the same plant. I have a couple NOIDS that need checking knowing this information.

I really believe you are on to something with us(the consumer) contacting the places that sell the plants. This is the type of proactiveness I like! You should know me well enough--I will go talk to a manager. Having said that however there needs to be a way for the Buyer to purchase labeled plants. I have done this before with Home Depot in regards to a different specie of plant and they were able to accomplish the task.

O/T(I dont know how familiar with forum lingo you are but O/T means OFF TOPIC)----Palms huh? That is cool! I am president of a local Gardening Club and one of the members grows Palms, and several species. What is unique about that is I live in Zone 5. And meticulate care is taken in the winter to wrap the trunks, etc etc etc. It has been amazing to see what zones you can stretch with the right equipment. He even wrapped one palm heavily with Christmas lights to provide heat on cold night. Ha ha! I have a great friend in CA who has a Beaucarnea with a base diameter of 15 feet....I should really find out how old it is...I too like palms... Aren't hobbies fun? By the way I have Phoenix dactylifera galore---that I planted from seed. I am curious as to which palms you collect!

Ryan

Lorraine,

You have done an excellent job describing the day-to-day process of what happens to a baby until it gets into plug stage.

You mentioned observing plants for diseases and bugs each week, a job we do continually, almost without thinking of it.

Optimara plants, for the most part have the same type of foliage except for the newer varieties coming out just recently. I love the realiability of your foliage. But I also enjoy the new variegated cultivars and of course the space plants which tend to have wavy leaves.

You should have seen the prices, especially of the space babies, when they first came out on Ebay. There were actual bidding wars and growers were paying top dollar for them.

As a researchist and writer I would be most interested in hearing about how you treat plants to protect them, prevent them or indeed, cure a disease or insect. Do you reproduce with tissue culture use or the much longer method we use producing babies with leaves or flower
stalks?

I am curious to know if you have seen any evidence of Impatience C. Spot Virus as this seems to be breaking out in the rest of the US and threatens our entire collections. No chemical is able to control this disease so we must be vigilent to protect our plants from Western Flower Thrips which itself is insusciptible to the chemicals we have on hand.

Nancy

I say at least weekly, because I wear a lot of hats at Optimara, so I have to make sure that I get to the greenhouse in the capacity at least once a week. For a notation, a true Space Baby should always have wavy leaves. Some tend to revert back. Good article on a hidden RNA that may cause mutations to revert Science 25March2005 (Vol 307) and in Nature, 24March2005. Something to look into anyways, because I am wondering how that may apply to the violets. For a listing of our treatments, please email me, as I am sure others are not really interested, and be aware that most of the chemicals used are also restricted chemicals. I have contacted my agent regarding teh C spot Virus, and the Western Flower Thrips. I am waiting to hear back from him. Although I am having thrip issues, I am hoping that it is that one. The major issues that I am experiencing is agrobacterium and corynespora.

Thanks, Lorraine.

The Corynesphora looks a lot like Impatience Necrotic Spot Virus to me--at least the research pictures seem similar. There is no cure for INSV. We just have to control Western Thrips and they have developed an immunity to our arsenel of chemicals.

Nancy

Dear Lorriane,

Any sneak peak at new varieties coming out? How can someone get ahold of discontinued violets? I see lots of Girl foliage plants listed in FC2 - such as Capricorn, San Fransisco, New Orleans, or Sagitarius - are any still currently in production?

Poor you for offering to ID plants and send labels! :) I may very well take you up on it, and I have about 20 Noids that I know to be Optimara! Plus some I think I ID'ed correctly, but might want you to check. Like I said, I am a sucker for grocery/department store AVs that I am slowly getting under control. Is there suck a thing as a SASB (self addressed stamped box)?

For those who also can't resist department store AVs, I company by the name of Nature's Heritage labels the AVs they sell. My Walmart got a shipment of these in for a promo (my Walmart usually carries unmarked Anthoflores) and this company have a mix of different AVs - Ultraviolets, Optimaras, and some others I am not familiar with, and the few I got seemed to be labeled correctly. Just a heads up!

Thanks!
Rebecca

Rebecca,

I will answer part of the question in behalf of Lorraine.
You can find the discontinued Optimara varieties at the Selective Gardener Website. There has been some discussion here that the prices are steep. Be aware that yes they are in fact a bit more then the average leaf. But be assured, through our discussions, that the plant or leaf purchased through that site will be true to type. It is checked and pure. I find the cost rather reasonable for that reason. And Lorraine is the one that will pick the plants/leaves. You will also get Optimara Labels thus making the plant easily identifiable on your own display, and make you able to show. It is a wonderful site and service.

Ryan

Ryan,

I might totally be not seeing them on the site, but I don't see any of the ones I mentioned on Selective Gardener, nor the 308 or so varieties listed in FC2. Where should I look??

-Rebecca

Hi, sorry for the delay in responses from me. I saw that I didn't even finish the last response regarding propagation. Currently, all propagation is done via vegetative propagation using leaves; however, at the end of the month, I will be going to TradeWind Technologies to learn how to tissue culture, and will begin tissue culture here. Do you have a website for Nature's Heritage? The names that you listed, are unfortunately gone. Whe I first came here, there was only one Capricorn left, about 3 inches tall, and it succumbed to phyto. if you have any other questions regarding production names that you don't see on the website, please email me and let me know.

Are there any girl leafed violets in production? That's too bad about the other varieties - they might not exist anymore!!!
-Rebecca

Oh, also, what about Rhapsodie Fenja and Bobbie? Are they still in production? I am interested in wasp blooms and these are classified as wasps in FC2.
Thanks,
Rebecca

Hello All,

I have been reading this thread with interest and fascination. Some of what I have to say is a day late and a dollar short, but opinion is that if I could not be assured of a label being true 95% of the time I would just as soon not have any label at all. Its better to knowingly have a no-name violet than to think I have a violet with the wrong name. It does not bother me that I cant go down to the local supermarket or Home Depot and buy a named violet. I havent been able to do that for years. It doesnt surprise me that massmarketing is not conducive to it. Because of this I have been buying named violets from specialty and mail-order stores as long as having named violets were important to me. Its nice to know now that there is a place to find named Optimaras.

I have told the story before so for those of you who have already read it, my apologies. My introduction to violets was almost by accident. If it werent for my Grandmother I may never have grown them. I had always heard that they were difficult to grow. One day my grandmother told me if I were to take a leaf from her African violet and put it in a glass of water it would sprout roots and little plantlets.She was right and they did. The Violet had no name. I didn't care about names back then. In fact, I may not have realized that they had names. Soon I was asking people if I could have a leaf from their violets for me to propagate. No I dont have the origonally violet. I gave it away. I kick myself every time I think about it.

But, getting back to my grandmother. She went to the grocery store and bought whatever violet happened to catch her fancy. She probably looked at them by color. I know that she liked the dark violet ones. The ones that we all think of when we think of an old-fashioned violet. She didnt care about names or anything like that. She just wanted something that looked good on her little table next to the window. She always had sheer curtains on the windows that she never opened and the violet would wither away after a few months. She would then throw it out, go to the grocery store and bring home another.

I once grew a bunch of violets from seed. Without going into all of the gory details I had to get rid of them fast. I was going to physical therapy at the time. I boxed up all of the violets, brought them into the physical therapy place and gave all of them away. Nobody asked me anything about names. They were just happy to have a pretty violet.

I really believe that my Grandmother was and many like her are the kind are customers that buy the majority of the African violets in this country. Some of these people in that majority group decide that they want to go to the next level, which includes having named violets. I am convinced that some would never have happened onto the next level had they not bought a no-name violet at the grocery store or had been given a gift of a violet from a friend. A little no name Violet started me in a hobby that has lasted for over 25 years. I am very grateful to my grandmother and that little violet for giving me so much joy.

Larry

Thanks for putting up with us Lorraine. It has been -- interesting. I only flinched ocassionally.

Kinda off topic but right up your alley, do you know Gardenweb has a forum just for palms and cyads? There's a link below.

Happy Monday! ;-P

Korina

Hi Lorriane,

That website for Nature's Heritage is:

http://www.natures-heritage.com/

-Rebecca

Hi again Lorraine,
After this long thread aout labeling I thought you might like to see one of the Rhapsodies that took Best in Show at the Central Jersey show in Matawan, NJ this past weekend. It doesn't exactly match the description that is in FC2 but I guess it's close. If you are interested in seeing the entire show go to the Violet Voiceat this link: http://groups.msn.com/TheVioletVoice/centraljerseyshow2005.msnw
Hope you enjoy it.
Fred in NJ

Lorraine,

Could you come back to us and discuss tissue culture?

Thanks ever so much.

Nancy in Montreal

wow

Hunh. I'd managed to forget about this thread; thanks Rubyfruit. Shame Lorraine never came back -- I think we scared her off! ;-) I could be wrong, but I think I've seen her post at another (slightly less volatile) forum, AVInternational.

Korina