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Sport Vs Birthmarking

Posted by froeschli Toronto 6b (My Page) on
Sun, Jun 15, 14 at 9:54

I was just wondering, seen as there isn't much left of my little sport except a few rooting leaves and a tiny crown.

When i assumed it was a sport, i wasn't aware there was such a thing as bloom color being influenced by birthmarking, so I came to wondering whether it was really a sport...

So, my theory: If it were an actual sport, the babies would show the same blooms, whereas if it were down to birthmarking, they would come up either normal (white), or purple. With a few mottled ones or maybe showing the white fantasy...

Does that sound about right?

Karin


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Sport Vs Birthmarking

First, did you set a birth marked leaf? I guess that is the first question.

Diana


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RE: Sport Vs Birthmarking

They were all birthmarked, to some degree anyways. From what I read, the plantlets can go either way.
The remainder of the crown is too small to be able to tell yet, but unless something weird has happened, it will all be birthmarked as well.

I think I may have just spotted a small plant of the 'original', though I can't be sure, I don't remember putting any leaves down. I'll see when it comes into bloom...

Actually, the photo shows the 'worst' leaf, the others just show a faint blush, until held up to the light...


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RE: Sport Vs Birthmarking

I can't actually see any birth marks in the photos, but I'll take your word.

I have never set a birthmarked leaf; I always try to pull a "clean" leaf when a plant starts to birth mark. However, others have said that they have gotten a percentage of unmarked plants from the birthmarked leaf. I can't find the post but it seems like one out of 4 was okay.

I did bloomstalk propagation on blossoms from two birthmarked plants. Both plantlets had birthmarks. I discarded the one because the big plant seems to have gone to a solid blue. It's too early to tell what kind of blooms the other will have (the mother plant now has two type on it).

There seem to be a lot of unstable blue and white plants. There are records of many of them birthmarking (I've owned several) and it seems that there are a lot of blue and white chimeras too.

I re-read your question and I think the answer is "Who knows?" I set another bloomstalk - maybe one won't be birthmarked :) I like the flower pattern, just not the leaves. (That was my first time fiddling with bloomstalk propagation.)

Diana


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RE: Sport Vs Birthmarking

Are you sure this is birth marking? There are other causes of darkening on leaves and some will show reddening on the back, especially under certain conditions. All mine have gotten unsightly dark blotches.

Did you look at "Tina's April Fantasy" on Bloomlover's? I suppose you did, but that one is supposed to be more or less stable although it does get bigger spots at times. Still they seem to be darker than what I see on your plant.

Maybe it did just sport. Of course, if they sport, they are still usually unstable and I always figure you might get the other one. It just depends.

Diana


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RE: Sport Vs Birthmarking

I couldn't recall the name, but that's the one that put me on the fence between sporting and birthmarkig.
I don't quite understand the difference, so that's why I asked to begin with. I suppose if it were stable through a few generations, I'd call it an actual sport.

Some of the leaves have dark red splotches, most have red veining, not all of it shows on the back of the leaves. The 'original' is all green, no red anywhere on the leaves.

Well, I suppose I'll see once the babies are grown :-)
Oh, and thanks for your input!

Karin


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RE: Sport Vs Birthmarking

I just read the most interesting fact! In an older, 2009 issue of AV magazine, an article on variegation said that non-V plants can have leaves with varying amounts of red, or all green when young, turning red when older. It also said that pink variegation is actually white variegation on a red-backed leaf. I found that fascinating because I am especially drawn to the pink variegated leaves, but also find them the hardest of all to grow. Getting back to the article, it said that in nature, the species had both all green and another species had red-backed. So when they got married and had babies, the offspring could be anything, on a given day!
I happen to like the red back a lot. Whereas, I think Irina considered the greenbacks to be a higher evolution. Maybe it has to do with money.... Joanne


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RE: Sport Vs Birthmarking

Yes. Younger plants may change their foliage somewhat as they mature. I tended to blame this on conditions since I've seen it in Optimaras but since that article says it's maturity, that may well be what's going on. Interesting. I think it's called silverback 'cause the greenbacks go out the door when you grow av's.

When I get a chance, I'll post my birthmarked ones. There's really no mistaking them. You don't have to hold them up to the light. (Sorry, but that reminds me of the jokes that say "It hurts when I do this...")

My O. Chico has some streaky blue blossoms (I said it was stable too many times so it had to do something, I guess.) but I see no signs of birthmarks on it. O. Tennessee had a couple of leaves birthmark but I removed them and it seemed all right until Dandelion knocked it flat on the floor.

I don't think you ever really know with a sport. That's why it has to be propagated through 3 generations before it can be registered and, even then, we have a great many unstable varieties.

There are others, but one well-known one is Bob Serbin. Set a leaf and you may get Bob Serbin or you may get Aca's Pink Delight. I got both, although the Bob Serbin wasn't a nice one. Boy, was I confused because I'd never heard about this. I believe Irish Flirt will sport to Sassy Sister and vice versa although this didn't happen to me.

OTOH, I never heard of "Tommie Lou" reverting to "White Pride" but Tommie Lou Ogden grew it through 9 generations before registering it.

I grow a sport (or maybe it just reverted) or Misty Miss that has been very stable.

Diana


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RE: Sport Vs Birthmarking

Maybe this would be a good question for Dr. Jeff Smith.

I see that some people say to "set a leaf and see if it reverts" to tell if it's a chimera but that doesn't account for the birth marked ones.

Arctic Frost is blooming. The real, not-birthmarked Arctic Frost. I haven't seen it forever. It's shockingly different to the birthmarked one.

Diana


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RE: Sport Vs Birthmarking

I'm coming in a little late on this one but, I don't think that leaf is birth-marked.
Here's an example of birth-marking.

Linda


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RE: Sport Vs Birthmarking

Sport or mutation - plant loses stability and starts changing. Birthmarking is just a sign that the plant is in transition, the change is coming. WIll the sport eventually stabilize and settle into its new form - who knows. Sometimes you can pick the most stable one by putting the leaf down, growing the babies - picking the one that behaves, putting leaf down - etc.

Sport that is essentially a baby originated from leaf coming from a stable plant is much more stable than the one that happened to a mature plant.

So - we just do a selection -
99% of sports are not as good as the plant it came from. Interesting - but goes to the gift shelf.
Most of the sporting mature plants are unstable. If the mutation is desirable - and I think the mottled blossom of Karin plant is quite rare - it is worth working on selecting the most stable one out of the several generations of restarts.

I think it is really interesting.

I.


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RE: Sport Vs Birthmarking

Thanks, Linda & Irina.
Whichever it is, it will all depend on what the next generation(s) show...
If I get some of the original, I can at least try and identify what the plant was supposed to be to begin with....
Anyhow, thank you for your opinions.

Below a (hopefully) better photo of the back of the leaf.


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RE: Sport Vs Birthmarking

Irina!

Where have you been??? I was about to send out the Mounties!!!

Linda


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RE: Sport Vs Birthmarking

Nice to see you back, Irina!

Karin,

I have seen leaves mottled on the back like that and didn't consider it birthmarking. I tended to think it was cultural. ? Seems like it may have been on some Optimara straight from Lowe's recently, although I've done some eBay too.

I have 3 Arctic Frosts that were once one plant. One now has dark foliage and large blue blossoms, one has mottled foliage and blue/white striped blooms almost like a chimera, now with some solid blue blooms too, the third is near white with medium green foliage. I kept it by taking unmarked leaves but they were the same plant.

Your plant is very pretty so see what happens. I had 2 kinds of Ice Storm going also but tossed one (luckily it was the "off" one).

Diana


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RE: Sport Vs Birthmarking

If only I had patience...
Ah well, time to water the lot. Maybe something else will grab my attention for the time being :-p


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RE: Sport Vs Birthmarking

Yay, Irina's back!!!
Joanne


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RE: Sport Vs Birthmarking

Hello everybody! I went to China for 2 weeks, it was a Gesneriad Society organized trip. I miss China! All the Primulinas in a wild, and great food, and nice people. Gorgeous views - Guangxi province is probably one of the most beautiful places in the world. Then I got home, at work - it was hectic and busy, then my hubby was diagnosed with dementia,,,He is actually doing better than expected, no driving of course, but he helps at home. And I have a roomie now - my friend and AV/Gesneriad grower moved with us with her plants of course and she is helping me tremendously. Then my son had a wedding, and now I am packing to go for Gesneriad Convention in Nashville. Daughters are coming to spend a week with hubby - so he will be OK.

Anybody plans to go to Nashville?

Big Hug to you all, friends!

I.


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RE: Sport Vs Birthmarking

Hi,
We sorely missed you, thanks so much for the update.
Wishing you all the best! Sounds like you are surrounded by a support group of friends and family. I am afraid to ask how many AVs plus their gesneriad friends you are now housing!
Joanne


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