Return to the African Violets Forum | Post a Follow-Up

 o
Reverting a chimera?

Posted by froeschli Toronto 6b (My Page) on
Thu, Jul 24, 14 at 9:01

I was just pondering this question.
Can you actually plant a chimera leaf and label the outcome by the variety the chimera sported from? Provided it appears with the right bloom color?
Say, I plant a leaf of "pixie runaround sport", and get some white flowering offspring, could that then be officially called "pixie runaround"?
I like the idea of collecting several "pixies" and it appears "pixie runaround" is harder to find than its chimera sport...

Karin


Follow-Up Postings:

 o
RE: Reverting a chimera?

Interesting question. I've wondered the same thing.


 o
RE: Reverting a chimera?

I'm fairly certain the answer to this question is no. I would only allow a hybrid to arise once, when the hybridizer first created it. Although the sport of the chimera may look like Pixie Runaround, there may be genetic differences between it and the real Pixie. Allowing two separate lineages would at a minimum be confusing. Essentially the chain would be : Pixie Runaround--->Chimera--->unnamed hybrid.

Mark


 o
RE: Reverting a chimera?

That sounds right, though I see a fair few people going on how suchandsuch variety sported to another named one, arguing that either of them initially was created by a sport of the other... And that any sport of the same origin and with the same appearance should be named the same...

As for genetic lineages, I am not convinced. Sure, the phenotype mostly remains the same, except for the obvious sports, but as much of that as I have seen, I fail to believe that even so called stable varieties are identical genetically across several generations of leaf propagation and growing.

After all, you select for conformity to description of appearance. noone has, to my knowledge, patented an actual DNA strain of an African violet. This would certainly lead to the debate on how much genetic aberration is permissible, and at which point genetic mutation renders a plant a new variety....
Not quite on topic, I know. But with chimeras you could argue that the DNA of the original variety was preserved in the white stripe, and therefore white blooming offspring was actually the 'purified' version, removing the genetic material that caused the purple borders...

Ok, enough brain garble ;-p and I am not making a point either way, just trying to reason it out, and failing...

Karin


 o
RE: Reverting a chimera?

See, that is my question also. Since chimeras have 2 different DNA strings, wouldn't it stand to reason that, when a chimera leave is plants, only one set of the DNA is being carried on. If that is the case, that would mean the leaf now contains the same DNA as the original and is now the original AV.


 o
RE: Reverting a chimera?

My understanding was that plants "reverted" to an original, not sported. In non-chimera land, that is the way it works.

Pixie Runaround is a single white and blue bell with variegated foliage. Lyndon Lyons has it listed.

Somewhere I thought I saw something about the chimera having each color separate somehow. Some say that a percentage of chimera leaves will produce chimeras. If it's true, I assume it's a rather low percentage.

I was thinking it might be safer to get chimeras of plants that had been attractive in the beginning and then if they went off, it wouldn't be so bad :).

I'm trying to retrieve Sweet Tea, my chimera, and I had gotten the idea that I might get solid whites from the suckers. None of them are big enough to bloom yet though.

Diana


 o
RE: Reverting a chimera?

I put down a leaf of Rebels Astro Spinnner. I have 5 plantlets. I would really like Rebels Night Breezes. I could also get a Splatter Kake. Or some type of less than adaquate splatter kake with sub optimal fantasy spots or just plain pink. Sombody on here had a really neat white one with both pink and purple eyes all from the same plant. I dont know if I could formally call them night breezes or splatter kakes ect. (Or even give them away as such) If I get either offspring, I will call them splatter kake or night breeezes as long as they stay in my collection.


 o
RE: Reverting a chimera?

It's not a chimera, but if you plant a leaf of Bob Serbin and get Aca's Pink Delight (this happened to me), there is no problem with calling it Aca's Pink Delight. It's a known sport of Bob Serbin. I would think the same rules would apply to chimeras.

I have a leaf set for the first time, but it is my understanding that Rebel's Splatter Kake is notoriously unstable.

Diana


 o
RE: Reverting a chimera?

A bit off of the topic but I have been reading about some chimeras coming true from leaves. If so, would it still be a chimera? Is a plant considered such if it has two distinct genetic string, cannot be reproduced by a leaf, one of the above or both of the above?

Linda


 o
RE: Reverting a chimera?

What chimeras come true from leaves? I haven't seen anything about that and would like to know where you read it. Just curious.

There are some pinwheels that are not chimeras, such as Bob's Omega.

Diana


 o
RE: Reverting a chimera?

It would seem to me that a chimera would Revert to a parent.
Consider

X+Y (x=red y=blue ) =Chimera (red with blue stripes)

Chimera = X AND Y Mix, (both red + blue expressed)

Leaf Set = X OR Y (red OR blue = Reversion to one parent)

THEN:

The Leaf Set would be a Reversion to the Red or Blue

IF

Leaf Set = Different Mix X+Y (Pink, Purple Blue/Red mix)

Then the resulting plants would be a MIX or a new variety rather than Reversion to Pure Form.

It would seem the parents split out into themselves, not into a 2nd or 3rd generation mix which would be necessary for a New Variety. Only One Parent is Expressed in a Reversion.

Does that make sense?


 o
RE: Reverting a chimera?

Linda,

the question that comes into play on your "problem" is whether it is the pinwheel pattern that defines a chimera or the existence of two separate strains of dna...
if it is the latter, then they shouldn't reproduce true from leaf, unless they tend to spontaneously sport back into chimeras....
if it is just the pattern, then some funky versions of thumbprints may qualify, and propagation from leaf shouldn't be any trouble.

i will try and set leaves of pixie runaround sport, even though i have more plants of it than i need (i use them for trailer-grooming-practice).

Karin


 o
RE: Reverting a chimera?

Diana,

I read somewhere, (I think it was here, not too long ago) that Paul Sorano of Lyndon Lyon said there were a few chimeras that reproduced true from leaves. Which I would think would make them pinwheels but not a chimera as opposed to pinwheels that are chimeras.

I haven't read this anywhere else so it may be mis-information.

Karin,

I think a violet is classified as a chimera if it doesn't reproduce true from leaves not the pinwheel pattern. I have a few violets that are very 'chimera-like' that are not. I have also seen violets that I was surprised were classified as chimeras because they didn't have the classic pinwheel look.

I think part of the issue may be hybridizers who are calling their violets chimeras because they have the pinwheel pattern.

It would be interesting to pose this to someone who knew the rules of registering violets. Maybe someone at the magazine?

Linda


 o
RE: Reverting a chimera?

Linda, you're right. I actually read somewhere where Paul Sorano said that a true chimera can actually bloom true started from a leaf. But it's rare. I'm inclined to take his word for it since he's bred enough of them himself to know.


 o
RE: Reverting a chimera?

Linda,

I would think that if showed the pinwheel consistently when grown from a leaf it is not a chimera. That's simply not the definition of a chimera, right? When I was trying to find a good definition for a chimera, I was led to Lyon's site where they rather adamantly say their chimeras won't come true from a leaf.

Someone else said they'd heard (somewhere) that there was something like a 30% chance. Personally (just my opinion), I would think it could happen since chimeras occur from regular plants anyway but I would think the odds would be slim.

OTOH, I just picked a lot of things that looked like extra babies from a non-guaranteed eBay chimera (a Lyon's variety I believe) and wondered how they were propagating it. I stuck them in a pot but they were small. I've had 3 chimeras come true from these folks so far but I don't think any of them are Lyon's varieties. One that might be is a small trailer.

The AVSA registration requirements are on the site. Chimeras have to be propagated from a sucker through 3 generations. Suckers, not even bloom stems.

Registration: http://www.avsa.org/plant-registration

#3. "You have reproduced the plant asexually (e.g. leaf cutting or, in the case of a chimera, sucker propagation) through at least three generations, and the offspring have reproduced true to the original plant."

No offense to anyone but reading that Paul said it isn't quite the same as actually reading a quote from Paul if you get the difference. Sometimes the internet gets things a little mixed up. No one seems to be able to remember or find the source.

OTOH, I did find where I got the notion that I might get either purple or white from my suckers. It's a little article by Nancy Robitaille on Violet Voice.

Diana

This post was edited by quimoi on Mon, Jul 28, 14 at 15:43


 o
RE: Reverting a chimera?

It seems like the simplest thing to do would be to drop Paul a line and ask him.


 o
RE: Reverting a chimera?

Back when I ordered several chimeras from Lyon's including Fire Dancer and Radiance. They sent me as a gift with order a George MacDonald plant that has a center color stripe that is different from the outer portion. They picked that because it was similar in color tone to those two chimeras. All of the chimeras died. It was a busy travel time in winter when my plants were neglected. The Mac plant survived. I posted a photo on the gallery. It blooms differently depending on light. At the time, I also purchased many reds from Lyon's. some survived the neglect. From across a room, the effect of the chimeras was subtle and lost. They simply looked reddish. For myself, if I can get the same or similar color impact from a stronger plant with blooms that have a central ray, that is better for my non fussy approach. Also, I don't regret the financial loss. A chimera is an investment. I tried propagating by flower stalk. That did not work, and they were not heavy bloomers. So I hated to lose a flower. Now I look for two tones that are not chimeras. I learned this works for me by trial and error. Mostly, error. Joanne


 o
RE: Reverting a chimera?

Go for it, Vivey!

I'm not sure that a chimera is an investment. I think it's more of an expensive gamble, not matter where you get it. If that's you thing, fine. I'm not entirely sure it's mine. I held off for a long time, had one for several years and when it started to actually grow, it went "off" and now I'm trying to get it back with suckers.

I got a little striped one on eBay and it is cute.

Diana


 o
RE: Reverting a chimera?

Chimeras are probably best left to the experts. Some in my club specialize in growing and reproducing chimeras. Some they sell at club sales to raise money for the club. So for them, it is an investment.
When I first bought chimeras, that year, Optimra came out with their own chimera pinwheel striped flowers with fringed edges and semi double petals . They were lovely. I bought a lot if different ones for the office and gave them away. At the time, I did not know it was seasonal with O or that chimeras were difficult, at least for me. If I had known , I would have kept at least one.
For someone new to violets, it is difficult to know what plant is going to be worth the extra money and what plant is too fussy for normal, routine care bordering on neglect at times. I've had some Russians that never quit. They turn out to be a better choice for my casual care. Joanne


 o
RE: Reverting a chimera?

Plants are almost never going to be like knick-knacks (or tchotchkes as my daughter would say). I've heard air plants are very easy, but you usually get involved and find that some are trickier and others are easier. Or they like shade and you put them in the sun. Or vice versa. Orchids, ferns, whatever.

If someone wants to try chimeras, go for it. Just don't order every one Lyon's has unless you really have the money and don't mind being disappointed. You will be disappointed at times, no matter what plants you choose. Sometimes you can find recommendations, but you still have to try them for yourself. Plus, all plants seem to have different strains and Susie Q on the forum may have a super strain and I get the puny one. (Yes, this happens a lot, lol. Nobody shows off photos of their losers.)

I stayed away from chimeras for years but now I have several that are going to bloom. An expensive one is ultimately going to be a disappointment because the plant began birthmarking and it still didn't bloom. We'll just have to see about the ones I took a chance on. The one is a beautiful plant and if the blossom is half decent I'll keep it, chimera or not. I wanted one until I found a photo of the entire plant - ugly!

If you learn to do bloom stem propagation, then you have a new skill. Try it on something else and see what happens.

Diana


 o
RE: Reverting a chimera?

Diana, Some of my family think plants should be like a knickknack!
I once thought Calico Queen was the most beautiful of all! I got it and somehow, it died! So now, I am very happy with Cora. It has similar two tone coloring. It is always a surprise because it does not blooms the same proportion of purple to white each time, and the flowers are consistent with each other. I have one that bloomed more white than purple, with all blossoms the same. Now it is blooming much more purple than white, with all blossoms the same. I will post photos once it has fully bloomed. J


 o
RE: Reverting a chimera?

I am still not decided if I like the pinwheel pattern of chimeras. But then, I am still figuring out what I actually do like...
I have a chimera - pixie runaround sport. I have a thumbprint (degas,or was it Dali?) and I have a few others. But I think plain old Geneva edges are my favourites :-) and plain purple stars. Gee how imaginative :-p

Karin


 o
RE: Reverting a chimera?

How's it going with contacting Paul Sorano? :)

Anyway, I just happened to run onto this quote so maybe someone will want to see if they can find anything further on it.

It should be kept in mind that there are VERY FEW “absolutes” in biology. Therefore, as has been demonstrated by Dr. Dan Lineberger, Department of Horticultural Sciences, Texas A&M University, pinwheel chimeras CAN be produced from leaf cuttings, but the percentages of chimeric plantlets is too low to make it practical to try to reproduce them in this manner.

I took this from a little article by Frank G. Schlicht, Phd. that he'd written on Violet Reflections a number of years ago.

At least we have a source for that one.

Diana


 o
RE: Reverting a chimera?

Here we go, my first blossom on pixie runaround sport. It is officially a chimera :-)
Interesting how each sucker I planted is shaping up differently - this one is nearly flat, most of the others are growing bushy, and one is still a single crown.
I put some leaves down to see if it would revert. We'll know next year sometime ;-p

Karin


 o
RE: Reverting a chimera?

Lyndon Lyon greenhouse has an interactive FaceBook account where AV questions can be asked. Also , questions can be sent to Jeff Smith at the AVSA magazine on genetics.
There are also other technical violet groups on the web that might help. There is also Travis violets. And violet barn has a blog . Just


 o
RE: Reverting a chimera?

I guess someone could try LLG's FB then. It's the Paul Sorano story we were trying to track down regarding chimera leaves.

Karin,

Thanks for posting. I'd kind of forgotten it was supposed to be a chimera. Yes it is and it needed some water too. I see yours isn't variegated much either although it's got more crowns. I moved both of mine near the window and I think it's helped. They needed more light. One is blooming and the other will come out soon. It's purple. I'm going to set leaves too and see what transpires. (Great minds...)

However - the description I have says "bells" and yours and mine look mighty like pansies to me. What do you think?

Diana


 o
RE: Reverting a chimera?

I hunted down the photo on Violet Barn and it looks about the same. Either I don't know what a bell looks like or the description isn't quite right. My white stripe isn't as pronounced but I expect that is conditions. It's growing and blooming.

Diana


 o
RE: Reverting a chimera?

Hmm, i have one that's supposed to be a pansy and looks more like a bell - maybe they switched ;-p

i never read the description, i just assumed it was meant to look like a smaller version of pixie blue. (i looked up pixie pink and it has the same blossom shape as well, i think) though the leaves don't match that theory.

i had a few plants that showed more variegation, but most of those leaves became victims of my trailer-grooming-experiments. now that i think about it, that is possibly why this one is the one that is doing best - more green, less "experimenting". i may have removed leaves that were pointing straight up, nothing else.

Karin


 o
RE: Reverting a chimera?

Mine were very variegated when they came but I had some problems with the light and everything was turning green. Now that it's summer, it's probably the combo of not enough light and warmer temps.

It's sitting beside Pixie Blue. I don't think they are too much alike. I finally have Pixie Pink coming on a leaf. It has lighter foliage. More green will help them grow faster. I'm playing on eBay and there is a Candy Fountain that is really too white. That one has no problem with variegation given the light. The seller is usually a very good grower but I wouldn't buy that one. Of course, I don't need to worry about it :)

My trailer grooming tends to be limited to pinching off whatever is sticking out too much although I think I'm going to have to do something with Senk's Fruit Fly.

Diana


 o
RE: Reverting a chimera?

I am just testing what works. Some people advise removing all leaves except the growing tips, others say to remove any upward growth, etc.
Pixie RR sp is the only one I currently have multiples of, so they volunteered as test subjects. It's a very compact trailer though, so I don't know if it is representative....
I will be planting some cuttings of other trailers when they are big enough, then I can observe if they behave similarly....

Karin


 o
RE: Reverting a chimera?

Karin,
I think you will find that different trailers behave differently. I have probably linked before to a page that explains a little about the various types.

Rob's varieties are what most instructions are written for, but some like Pixie Blue are semi-shrub (I think that's it) or upright and don't react the same way.

Now this is just me, but how does a trailer get to be a trailer? The hybridizer decides to register or call it a trailer, right? I suspect some of them could go either way and are just as happy being grown as standards. You run into this more with the older standard trailers, I believe. If you don't show and it doesn't want to conform, either get rid of it or let it grow the other way. Why knock yourself out.

I have no idea how Violet Barn got Ramblin' Lassie to grow into a real trailer because it's really not inclined to ramble. I just put 3 in the pot.

Diana


 o
RE: Reverting a chimera?

Joanne,

You just mean Lyndon Lyons regular FB page, right? I didn't see anything in the way of Q&A there. I see they have something like Fan of the Month. Maybe you could get on for that.

Really Andrea Worrell is a professional grower pretty much, I think. I don't know her but she's not your average grower by any means.

Ann-Marie is there showing her assets. She is a refreshing change from the old days of AVSA photos of ladies in pillbox hats and fur capelets. (She was on one of the forums and was always very nice.) Am I just jealous? Of course.

Diana


 o Post a Follow-Up

Please Note: Only registered members are able to post messages to this forum.

    If you are a member, please log in.

    If you aren't yet a member, join now!


Return to the African Violets Forum

Information about Posting

  • You must be logged in to post a message. Once you are logged in, a posting window will appear at the bottom of the messages. If you are not a member, please register for an account.
  • Please review our Rules of Play before posting.
  • Posting is a two-step process. Once you have composed your message, you will be taken to the preview page. You will then have a chance to review your post, make changes and upload photos.
  • After posting your message, you may need to refresh the forum page in order to see it.
  • Before posting copyrighted material, please read about Copyright and Fair Use.
  • We have a strict no-advertising policy!
  • If you would like to practice posting or uploading photos, please visit our Test forum.
  • If you need assistance, please Contact Us and we will be happy to help.


Learn more about in-text links on this page here