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My Noid Plant ID?

Posted by judyj Z5 CO (My Page) on
Sun, Aug 17, 14 at 17:44

Does anyone know what this is? I've been to Optimara's site, and while there are a couple similar, there's nothing quite like it.

I bought this at a local garden store, ailing, but was struck by the one tiny bloom and the wild variegation. The combination is lovey to me!

It's been nursed back to health and still needs some shaping up but I really love it.

The leaves are serrated, not heart-shaped, the flowers are fully double so far (and sparkly!). The color of the flowers is pink, light on the upper, darker (nearly fuchsia) on the lower (or vice-verse, depending on how you're looking at it!:-) May be a semi or a standard. Right now it's about 7 inches across. Fairly symmetrical. Little large for a semi, but I just don't know. Seems to me that's it's not quite mature yet.

You can see where it was probably a little cold (when I got it-excess white), then got a little too warm (greener now, in the little greenhouse) and now the newest leaf (not shown) is more what I consider properly variegated.

I have one baby planted (grown from a leaf in water), and another couple leaves planted. Baby came out mostly white with some green. Mother leaf is still good so I put it back in water (hey, it worked the first time, LOL!).

Thanks for any info!

Best,
Judy


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: My Noid Plant ID?

From my very limited experience, I'd say it doesn't look like an optimara. And not really like any of the anthoflores I've seen either.
I'd suggest calling the garden center and asking who their supplier is, that may give you a better starting point for research...

Nice plant though, even as a NOID, I'd keep it :-)


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RE: My Noid Plant ID?

Hi, I agree, it does not look like an Optimara. I found a similar one last year at a garden center. They would not let me know where they got it! Joanne


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RE: My Noid Plant ID?

I agree too, it doesn't look like any Optimara I have seen. But it's really nice. Judy, you get to name it!


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RE: My Noid Plant ID?

Wow! I love it! That is one beautiful variegated!

Sue


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RE: My Noid Plant ID?

Thanks All! Perle, LOL, wish I could! Just spoke to the owner of the store where I bought it and she's going to call her supplier! I just the owner pictures a minute ago! Hope this turns out! Cross your fingers! :-)

Best,
Judy


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RE: My Noid Plant ID?

OK I meant "I just "sent" the owner..." and the supplier is in Florida if that helps anyone id the grower! Going to start searching the web! :-)


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RE: My Noid Plant ID?

"Harmony" produces AVs wholesale in Fl but not sure they will ID. I sent them 2 pictures of AV s I purchased a week before from a local nursery. Their IDs were far off what the actual plant looked like (different color flower and leaf).
Lovely AV - I would keep her even as a NOID. Ever want to trade leaves - I love one from this one!


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RE: My Noid Plant ID?

I have a couple of lovely NOIDs that I named after either the person I got them from or from the place where I got them. Of course they are still NOIDs and I couldn't show them or anything, but it helps me keep track of them when they aren't in bloom. I do hope you can find out the name though.


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RE: My Noid Plant ID?

well in truth, I'm not holding out with a lot of hope. I couldn't find Harmony on line, but did find mention of them. There's another place on line called ApopkaFoliage.com (R) who are distributors, but only two of their associated nurseries sell AVS . Those websites don't claim to, however, so I'm guessing perhaps they just propagate NOIDs to sell to general Q public!

Now a little fun-at Perle's suggestion!
How about Pearls and Roses? Or Pearl's Pink Jubilee? NOID upstart? LOL!
Suggestions welcome!

:-)

Best,
Judy


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RE: My Noid Plant ID?

Hi
Pearls & Roses is a pretty name and suits the plant.
Joanne

This post was edited by fortyseven on Tue, Aug 26, 14 at 10:09


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RE: My Noid Plant ID?

Joanne, does your club allow NOID sales? I was just wondering!

Thanks!

Best,
Judy


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RE: My Noid Plant ID?

Yes. For the public who are not collectors and just want a pretty plant. Do you belong to a club? My club sometimes buys directly from Optimara for sales. Those plants arrive with name tags. They also buy from local farmers who are licensed. But no tags. The members also sell their own named plants, those usually go fast to the few collectors
The only time they need a name is for a show. J

This post was edited by fortyseven on Tue, Aug 26, 14 at 10:13


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RE: My Noid Plant ID?

Hi Joanne, I don't belong to a club but am considering joining one. Unfortunately the closest club is not very active and I'm in the sticks to some extent. I just wondered how the clubs were with the NOIDs, wasn't sure. The AV community is still fairly new to me-I've just been doing this on my own mostly, until I found gardenweb.

You must have some serious self-discipline. It would be hard for me not to buy all the variegated types! :-)


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RE: My Noid Plant ID?

Judy, I think all clubs are somewhat different. At my local club, people looked at me funny when I told them I didn't have any named varieties. They did offer to ID my optimaras, if I brought them in though, and some of them, I wholly believe could recite FC2 from memory. Including trivia on hybridizers etc.
I never went back, mainly because I just am not that social, and though the people were very knowledgeable, the club program was a bit of a let down (I hadn't expected to just sit in the dark and watch a video...)
I suggest you try your club and decide from there.

Karin


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RE: My Noid Plant ID?

Hi Judy,
Good questions, Judy.

When you say that your nearest club is not very active, what do you mean? Are they small? Or don't meet often? Or they don't have shows and sales? . It is a good place get plants grown in your own environment, so the plants will be adapted to your conditions.
Joanne

This post was edited by fortyseven on Thu, Aug 28, 14 at 19:59


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RE: My Noid Plant ID?

Joanne, I'm looking into the local chapter now.
Like Karin, I'm not really social but it should be a bit of fun!

Thanks,
Judy


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RE: My Noid Plant ID?

  • Posted by dbarron Z6/7 (Oklahoma) (My Page) on
    Mon, Aug 25, 14 at 19:05

Judy, if you talk about plants you love...you'll be surprised how social you can be. LOL


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RE: My Noid Plant ID? Updates

Well, here's the answer from the seller-and to give her credit, she did a great job of contacting the growers(!):

***********************************************
Feedback from a few different growers on your african violet:
" Either Cajun Popcorn or Precious Rose, seems to be a mix of one of those and something else."

Sported Optimara variety, possibly from "Louisiana" or "My Delight"...rare.

The additional feedback I received from another grower was to check AVSA.org.

************************
Now I've looked at them all but none match (and would be impossible to track down a sport without a name!).

Question: At what point, if any, are we allowed to 1. Either reproduce a NOID and give it a true name or 2. Hybridize a NOID with another and give it a true name? Surely there's got to be some rules allowing some of this-with all the zillions of NOIDs out there?

Thanks for any insight-I'd really like to understand!

Best,
Judy


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RE: My Noid Plant ID?

Hi Judy
You are very fortunate that the seller was willing to do some research for you.
On this Forum, Irina was the expert on your two questions. Maybe if you were to attempt a search using the search feature above, you might find answers. I think she said you would need to know the pollen donator and receiver names to register any resulting crosses.

Growers make their own hybrids from combinations of various plants for retail sale. Someone might use the genetic material to form their own unnamed hybrid to sell at a lower cost .
. There probably is a way to study the science of hybridization , that this is kept secret, though.

This post was edited by fortyseven on Thu, Aug 28, 14 at 20:00


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RE: My Noid Plant ID?

Judy
Lyon's Northern Attitude is somewhat similar.


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RE: My Noid Plant ID?

Is it definitely pink? The photos keep showing up lavender on my computer. It looks a lot like Sora Fuzzy Face. There are a lot of Buckeyes too.

The shape of the blossom doesn't seem to fit the other suggestions. I think it would be extremely unusual for a plain Optimara to sport to that variegated foliage.

If it's a big plant, you might look at the Cajun's. They are sometimes variable it seems.

Some of the Domiano hybrids seemed to have that blossom shape but FC2 didn't have many photos.

There is information on registration on the AVSA website. Hybridizing isn't any secret either. Just work :)

Diana


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RE: My Noid Plant ID?

Hi Diana,
It's definitely pink! :-) I'll take a look at Cajun's though the one Monica listed in her email didn't match at all.

Guess I'll just move forward. Our SP(silly puppy) knocked it off the table last night and it's lost three leaves, so it will be a while before I can do much shaping up! :-) However, we do have the lovely baby and a couple of leaves growing to boot!

I'll take a good look at AVSA registration requirements too!

Thanks so much-
Best,
Judy


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RE: My Noid Plant ID?

Judy,

i found the post by Irina, where she explained most of this:

Some clarification:
To register the violet you hybridized - you need to know the parents, you need to grow 3 generations so you are sure that it can be propagated vegetatively (unless you register a chimera) and you need to be a a member of AVSA. You fill the form on a special acid free paper with a description of a new form, pay $5 and send it to the registration person in AVSA.
If one or both of your parents are NOIDs - it won't work.
As you see - you need to have NAMED plants, not necessary registered.
The same is for Show - you show named plants - both registered and non -registered. the only requirement - if you show a collection - 3 minis, semis or standards - ALL violets should be registered. Collection is a very desirable class - because 2 best collections get a special ribbon from AVSA, and the collections are important for the grade of your show - the AVSA clubs Shows should meet certain standards and they are graded too. So your club or Council wants to have good collections.
The rest of the plants in a show can be non-registered - but all of them should be named.
Really - the plants we grow - they are all named - it just somebody on the line of owners between the hybridizer and the current one - lost the tag. And I am sure the hybridizer wants his baby to carry the name - not to be called - 'Hey- you - I am talking to you - with the purple top - can you pass me the salt?"
Why some of the plants are registered - and some are not - because it is a bother to go through the process - or the hybridizer thinks only the very best out of his need to be registered - on the other side - some enthusiastic new person makes a cross - and registeres a mediocre plant just out of desire to put his or her name on a list in Master class. But - it is no bother - the actual growers selection is very strict - and a mediocre plant probably will be grown between the family and friends - but won't see the limelight.

So - it is a free country and you love your plants with tags lost - just enjoy them. The plants do not care and will bloom their heads off for you if you treat them right.

But if you have named plants - keep the records and the labels in place - horse with no name - loses value. Plus it is very important to go to the shows - with or without actually showing anything - because it is where you learn from the best, you observe how the plants look at the top of their potential - and you strive to have yours look like this too.

Irina, second Monday in a row

The only thing I would add, is that naming a NOID would be like taking an unidentified painting and passing it off as yours. with the added complication that genetic copies of the plant may be out there, registered under their true name. And if ever anyone decided to get into DNA testing to prove intellectual ownership of their creation - it could get messy....

Karin

Here is a link that might be useful: previous discussion on avsa registration requirements


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RE: My Noid Plant ID?

Thanks a ton Karin-lots of information there-and I read the entire thing! I will just enjoy my little "Pearls and Roses" NOID, and give the offspring to friends. Or if I ever get into the sales end of it, sell the babies as NOIDs.

Does bring up a question-somehow, someone got started with more than just the species, didn't they? Or maybe not? Just thinking of animals and other plants where certain breeds or types where developed over time and eventually became legitimate within the particular show circles, e.g. AKC, CFA etc.

Just pondering-
Thanks again!

Best,
Judy


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RE: My Noid Plant ID?

Hi Judy
Again, you ask such interesting questions! I, too, was curious about that and read up on it when I first got intrigued by the topic by reading this forum. Originally,
there were several species, not just one. There were the original set of crosses that we would today consider basic. The entire history of hybridization is fascinating.
Some of them
sported on their own and growers selected for those features. You can read up on the Tommie Lou
variegation as one example. Another was what is called watermelon veining that appeared on its own. If you ever can get some copies of the AVSA magazine, which clubs usually carry, or subscribe on your own, or even hunt around on the internet, you can find articles written by Jeff Smith who studies genetics.

By the way, the plants don't sell for much at club sales, and the club usually keeps half! Irina always reminded us this is a hobby, the cash flow is more out than in!

Here is a portion of a post below from Irina from 2011.
She is our resident expert on this forum on hybridizing information.
You can also find more on the topic by using the words Irina hybridizing in a search to pull up some threads where others posted as well. Joanne
------------------------------------- Irina wrote:
the information about the parents is private and only recorded while you register the plants with AVSA, but it is not published. Every serious hybridizer makes meticulous records of all crosses - mainly to keep an account for dominant and recessive traits in each plant. The results of each cross probably will not make the cut to be released- but they will bring valuable information for future - or will be used for backcrossing to parent to reveal a recessive trait. Basically - most of the crosses are very well planned and the hybridizer is working to create something that he or she already envisioned.

This post was edited by fortyseven on Wed, Aug 27, 14 at 21:03


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RE: My Noid Plant ID?

Judy
I saw an old research paper from the 1950's which stated that variegated and most of the modern leaf variations, double and fantasy flowere were developed from propagated leaves from colchocine treated plants, the Supremes.
I tried to send the information to one other member but by the time I finished writing "Wight Pried Supreme" properly, the email disappeared so I am probably on some official list as a "wight spremest."
But the research paper I saw stated that Tommy Lou was the only stable variegated from the white flowered Supreme "Wight Pried" (sp for benefit of homeland security). Supposedly any white treated with colchicine in a certain solution and time will yield unstable variegated progeny
I don't know how much credence to give that but many modern hybridizers may be working with various chemicals which include cochicine, inseciticides and radiation.
Short Wave radiation (UV light) applied to pollen is supposed to increase mutations.
Don't know how reliable my source is but it is labeled Royal Horticultural Society. So there it is

This post was edited by lucky123 on Wed, Aug 27, 14 at 22:09


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RE: My Noid Plant ID?

Lucky,
you crack me up! RHS was one of the early hybridizers of AVs

This post was edited by fortyseven on Thu, Aug 28, 14 at 20:03


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RE: My Noid Plant ID?

There is some newer research from India where the mutations induced by colchicine, particularly bi-color edged flowers were stabilized with radiation.
First colchicine, then gamma-rays.


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RE: My Noid Plant ID?

Judy,

I suppose asking if it was pink seemed strange but some of the descriptions were something like lavender-pink (or something like that) and the photos looked pink.

There is also O. Dali which always looks pink to me and Optimara claims is purple. The FC2 photos don't look much like my plant which looks like my old plant and this one came with the row stake so it's not like I have some other Optimara. The old one was the spitting image of the one on the AVSA Photo Gallery. Apparently pink is sometimes purple :)

In some other post, I linked to the AVSA registration process and forms also. They are public.

I have always understood that White Pride was the parent of Tommie Lou. Not White Pride Supreme.

Diana


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RE: My Noid Plant ID?

Judy,

The story of the original hybridizing and Armacrost & Royston's "Original 10" can be found in quite a few books. I enjoyed borrowing older books from openlibrary.org. You can get them digitally and keep them for two weeks (and return them or they just automatically take them back). The only bad thing is that sometimes the .epub format doesn't work and you have to use .pdf. If you have a great library system, you can get real books :) It tells you where those are too.

Diana


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RE: My Noid Plant ID?

Diana
From What I Understand.
The original Tommy Lou was thought to be sterile, which would indicate Supreme. However Holtkamp discovered a way to pollinate Tommy Low.
There is some confusion about which White Pride was used and both are registered by the same hybridizer, I believe.
My information is sketchy but the proliferation of hybrids is suspicious because mutations are rare in wild plants, even AV's.
Irina commented in one post and I believe Linda also that the early hybridizers were secretive. It is the published research of Royal Botanical and Horticultural Societies that may provide some clue to what the early and late hybridizers were doing.
I have a very small collection of AV's yet the variety in leaf shapes, sizes and the bloom color/shapes is astonishing for natural seed hybridization.
I can set a row of plants, except for the O., and the plants are so different from each other that anyone who did not know AV's would have a hard time saying they were the same species yet the wild species are very similar to each other.


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RE: My Noid Plant ID?

Who wrote the research paper?

It's true that early hybridizers were secretive but it eventually became known that the DuPont Supremes were produced by colchicine treatment. There is the 1964 play called "The Effect of Gamma Rays on Man-in-the-Moon Marigolds" which isn't about hybridizing but certainly documents that experiments on plants were being conducted back then. And we have the Space Violets so there are various types that were produced by exposing the plants to unusual conditions.

Diana


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RE: My Noid Plant ID?

GMO AVs ... good thing they are not edible


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RE: My Noid Plant ID?

This is really fascinating stuff. I looked up colchocine and while it's typically used to treat gout, there are folk in the plant research area that are using it to create chlorophyll mutations, which I suppose is where the variegation comes in to play. It would be curious to find out if that's where some other non-species type variegated plants are coming from.

Interest, really interesting. That also means (to me) that it's perfectly acceptable to create a hybrid whose total is greater than (or possibly less than) than the sum of the "named" parents. What I mean by this is that in it's (the hybrid's) current form, it's DNA would not match exactly those of the parents cuz someone mucked with it!

Therefore, my next question, though somewhat philosophical-but also serious-is: what's the difference between hybridizing two NOIDs into a "named" plant, and radically altering the DNA of an offspring of "named" parents? Perhaps because one could possibly repeat the "mucking with DNA" portion of the "named" hybrid, but I will tell you in truth-without extremely sophisticated equipment (mega-software and mega-computing power), it's not that simple and is more like winning the lottery if it works. You might come pretty close, but not necessarily exact.

Or perhaps that the "mucked with (MW)" hybrid will yield consistent behavior in physical aspects-and any abnormality would be put down as an environmental issue for a particular plant (and it could be BOTH!). If I were to be a purist in this respect, I'd want DNA evidence that the offspring of the
of the MW hybrid exactly matched that of the parent MW. Of course I could digress on what defines the term "exactly" but I'll spare you my engineering rhetoric as you're probably seeing where I'm going with this.

Now someone mentioned the name "DuPont" and indeed, they would have such software and computing power-if we're talking about the major chemical manufacturer. But it's still past even the more sophisticated hybridizers (unless they've got an agreement with someone like DuPont). That brings me to the question of how AVSA would know-and what kind of proof they would ask for...

But of course, I'll certainly abide by the rules!
And maybe later down the road, I'll get some of that colchocine and toss in some radiation to make my own super-hybrid! :-))

What an incredible discussion! Thoughts in my head still meandering-

Hoping I'm not offending anyone with this: I really don't mean to.

Thanks so much!

Best,
Judy

This post was edited by judyj on Thu, Aug 28, 14 at 21:47


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RE: My Noid Plant ID?

Diana

I am posting a link to the newest research done in India, Royal Botanical Society. It has pictures and details colchicine mutations stabilized with gamma rays.

Check the bottom of my post for the link named "Research"

I will keep looking because I found several articles when I was researching this topic.

Here is a link that might be useful: Research


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RE: My Noid Plant ID?

Lucky, Good research, Thanks for providing this. Also, Karin, thanks for finding Irina's post and reposting it.
Judy,
There are several people experimenting with hybridizing in the AV world who have been interviewed and their interviews posted on the internet. These might be of interest to you. some current hybridizers in the AV world are Kent and Joyce Stork and Jeff Smith. There is a video series called All About African Violets by Annie that had weekly podcasts including some interviews with Jeff Smith and Kent Stork. They both set out with specific goals in mind and achieved their goals with some of their plants. For Jeff Smith, one is the Genetic series. He may have been trying to stabilitize the pattern of variegation. Another is the Tomorrow series.

As for your questions, seems that if a plant is of unknown genetics, then the experiment, as Irina said, is more of a curiosity than anything because you can't trace unknown genetics. There is no known lineage.

In the early days, this research was patented. Many of the original Holtkamp's hold U.S. patents, that eventually expire. I believe Jeff Smith has also patented his plants. So the patents can be looked up on the U.S. Patent office website, or just do a Google search with the name of the plant and add the word patent to your search.
It takes a lot of patience to read all the information. The scientists have to make an argument as to why a violet deserves a patent. Several years ago, some of the research papers were available on the internet. They were highly technical. All in code. They seem to have disappeared.
I think Jeff Smith is a scientist working with other scientists in an agricultural or horticultural setting connected with a university. The AVs might be a past time or he might work with them professionally.

For the Storks, they are also advanced in their knowledge of horticulture.

Joan


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RE: My Noid Plant ID?

Thanks Joan-I'll look into that for sure. It certainly helps me quite a bit!

Best,
Judy


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RE: My Noid Plant ID?

i have stumbled upon an amateur hybridizer blog - it might be of interest to you to read about the process.
you'll need to start with the earliest post and then go year by year to see the advance.

Here is a link that might be useful: the earliest post


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