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judyj_gw

AV insecticides-best/safest?

judyj
9 years ago

Today I found a couple bugs on some baby AVs. They're very tiny, thin and dark. I can't see them well enough to know what they are. One was running around the rim of a cup and I squashed it. The other was running through the top of the soil and I did the same. Nine of these babies I potted up the weekend before last and they're currently in my mini greenhouse becoming acclimated. The first bug I found on one of those. The second bug, however, I found on babies still in the nursery in an entirely different room, on a different floor in the house. The AV babies are doing quite well, but I must consider that something got to the original babies' soil.

Between these and the occasional fungus gnat, plus some streps I got last weekend (in quarantine) that had some aphids on them, I've come to the sad conclusion that I'm going to have to resort to insecticide.

I've read that many use Imidacloprid and I know it's toxic to bees. Unfortunately most insecticides are toxic to bees, so I'll just have to do something else with the soil when repotting besides throwing it in the garden.

What I'm hoping to find out is-what do most people use-and consider the safest and best type?

I have no idea what these bugs are, though I know I've seen them in the long distant past. Not thrips, not soil mealy bugs, and I've not heard of fungus gnat larvae running around (these guys are FAST).

Any insight will truly be appreciated.

Thank you very much.

Best,
Judy

This post was edited by judyj on Wed, Oct 1, 14 at 19:23

Comments (23)

  • PRO
    Whitelacey
    9 years ago

    Judy,

    You need to ID before you treat. Insecticides work on insects, miticides work on arachnids, etc. so you need to identify first.

    One of the most knowledgeable growers that I know is John from Cape Cod Violetry. I always consult him when I have a bug problem and he is a fountain of knowledge. You can find him on the web or come back here if you need help locating him.

    He is always glad to help and often carries what you need in small, reasonably priced quantities.

    I hope this helps.

    Linda

    P.S. With apologies to all who have heard my rant before-it's soil not dirt. :)

  • lucky123
    9 years ago

    I use Sprecticide Lawn and Garden with Triazicide, diluted, diluted diluted. If you spray in the vicinity of the plants, being mindful of the effect of cold on the plant.
    I have found it very safe for AV's and it can be poured through the soil.
    It is not residual but it is very safe and takes care of most pest.
    A plant can be placed in a sealed tent, dome, baggie with a bit of hotshot no-pest strip for 24 hours or so.
    For fungus gnats, I am making tobacco tea to pour through the soil as imadocloprid is synthetic tobacco. I have no idea if it will work for the grubs but the flies, I tolerate. They are seasonal here and just an annoyance.
    It is wise to do as Linda stated and identify the pest first.

    Linda, in American English, Dirt is what plants grow in. Soil is what a child does in his diaper or his pants.
    "American Soil" as is so often stated by Homeland Security is incorrect and amusing/insulting to many Americans

    This post was edited by lucky123 on Wed, Oct 1, 14 at 11:34

  • Karin
    9 years ago

    LOL lucky. that is one i haven't heard before. but i would assume across a country the size of the US, the definition of "American English" varies greatly.
    That is why i stick to "potting medium" ;-p

    Karin

  • lucky123
    9 years ago

    Nobody minds a little dirt but in all English, soil has a connotation of stink, rot, spoiled, stained or as a euphemism for "sh*t" as in" night soil."
    While I am on the rant, Americans do not and have never had a "Homeland." Home and land are not required and we are not Europeans with Father Land or Mother Land.
    Americans have a Country.
    So says Lou Dobbs and I say "Right On" to that!
    Meanwhile, I have this "stuff" which is not dirt or soil but some perlite vermiculite and peat moss. I stuff my plants in this stuff and don't really need to name it at all.

    This post was edited by lucky123 on Wed, Oct 1, 14 at 12:52

  • PRO
    Whitelacey
    9 years ago

    Lucky,

    As a professional Horticulturist by education and trade, correct nomenclature is imperative. Soil is the stuff we grow in, dirt is what is on your clothes at the end of the day and not in your baby's diaper. This is according to correct Horticultural terminology and has nothing to do with American English, just correct terminology that is in use world-wide.

    Calling soil 'dirt' is one of the marks of someone who doesn't know what they are about when it comes to being a grower.

    (I have never heard of a baby's eliminations being referred to as soil. It must be a regional thing, certainly not an American English thing.)

    Linda

    This post was edited by whitelacey on Wed, Oct 1, 14 at 14:31

  • cdnanon
    9 years ago

    there is the possibility of springtails as well, if plants are not showing any symptoms.
    they are generally considered harmless to the plants. you can let the pots dry out between waterings as an option to help reduce them or using a diluted "Safer Soap" (insecticidal soap) solution to get ride of them.

    search the forums for springtails just in case.

    best of luck!

  • lucky123
    9 years ago

    Linda
    Strictly speaking: Soil is a verb. Dirt is a noun. I can work in the dirt and soil my clothes. To work in the soil and dirty my clothes is basically, according to the rules, incorrect. "He is soiling the fabric with his dirty hands." It is the "ing" and "y" rule.

    Clarity is correct.

    "An attack on American Soil" could suggest an attack on port-a-potties and outhouses in Canada or Mexico or Brazil.

    "An attack within (the borders of) the US" means a very specific place with an unspecified target.

    Here are some examples of "soil' in its more colorful connotations.

    "He soiled himself" (those baby diapers)

    Actually, this isn't American. It is an old English translation of Homer's Iliad as an expression of shame
    "He soiled his comely face with it, and filthy ashes settled on his scented tunic"

    It is Shakespeare
    they would make themselves whores, but they'd do't! ..... No way excuse his soils..."

    This post was edited by lucky123 on Wed, Oct 1, 14 at 17:20

  • judyj
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    OK, I updated the one place I called it "dirt" with soil! LOL! :-)

    Not getting into the semantics portion of this!

    And, Anon-these could be springtails. I'd never heard of them before. As I've said, I've seen them before, but never worried about them much. However, that was before I got serious about these plants.

    But here I am, stuck. I don't have a microscope, or even a good enough magnifying glass to see them well enough. Our magnifying glass has a small extra magnifying spot, but I don't think it's good enough. Maybe we'll have to get a cheap microscope.

    What do you other folk use to identify bugs and the like with?

    Best,
    Judy

  • lucky123
    9 years ago

    Judy
    A jewelers loupe works and I bought mine on Ebay for a few dollars.

    Soil is a verb. House is a verb. Dirt is a noun. Home is a noun.

    Technically, in Horticultural Terminology, Soil means the structure of the Dirt.

    House or Housing refers to the structure. "House" can be any encasement that structurally houses a noun, such as "transmission housing."

    I have dirt unless I am speaking about the structure and composition of the dirt, then it is "soil." I have a home, unless I am referring to the structure, then it is a house.

    However, the word dirtying is akin to suckying so it pays to be mindful of the fact dirt and soil are noun and verb and use the proper suffix in each case.

    This post was edited by lucky123 on Wed, Oct 1, 14 at 22:25

  • fortyseven_gw
    9 years ago

    Judy,
    If it moves, it is NOT a problem, IMHO. Just get some of
    those pest strips or a fruit fly trap rom your local garden store. Or a small Venus fly trap. Put them all near your AVs. If you feel more comfortable, remove the plant, rinse it off, and repot it.
    The potting medium is usually sterile.
    When I was a kid, my father had a garden as a hobby. It was huge and it was "organic," meaning we had every kind of creepy crawly that ever existed, on flowering plants and edibles. No one would dream of spraying. We had ants everywhere. My mother had cucumber strips everywhere. You would have thought we were Mahatma Ghandi, afraid to squash anything that had six legs. And he dogs had fleas and so did the cats. No flea collars, just a flea comb and a patient mother.

    Plants mean bugs are going to visit. If it is something that goes with the territory of AVs, such as mealie or thrips, that is a different store. Those are a little trickier.

    As for dirt, as Irina once quipped, that is what is left under your fingernails after you have been toiling in the soil.
    Joanne

    This post was edited by fortyseven on Wed, Oct 1, 14 at 20:51

  • lucky123
    9 years ago

    Joanne
    Dirt is what I have outside my house, acres and acres of it, plain old dirt but if I analyze it, amend it then I refer to it as soil as in soil samples, soil tests, soil amendments all referring to "structure" but it is the same old dirt
    What exactly has soiled the name and reputation of dirt?
    Any grime or grung is "dirt?"
    I like dirt.
    Soil is to begrime, besmudge and bespatter at least in any other context.
    But perhaps I like and know the language well.

  • fortyseven_gw
    9 years ago

    Found some amusing definitions on the internet. Please read it all the way through, there are some amusing analogies at the end:

    "A number of speakers at this morningâÂÂs media preview of the SmithsonianâÂÂs soils exhibit acknowledged how they initially didnâÂÂt know that soil and dirt were not synonymous. Of course, none went on to explain the difference either. So when the Q&A period opened, my hand shot up with the first question: âÂÂWhat IS the difference between dirt and soil?âÂÂ

    From Wiki: Soil is commonly referred to as "earth" or "dirt"; technically, the term "dirt" should be restricted to displaced soil.

    Here is another:
    Soil contains microorganisms, decaying organic matter, earthworms and other insects. Soil is a living environment. The earthworms and insects aerate the soil and add to the organic matter of the soil through their waste and when their bodies decay. Dirt is dead soil.

    And another from a reporter:
    "Pat Megonigal of the Soil Science Society of America
    said, in a nutshell that âÂÂDirt is displaced soil.âÂÂ
    Uh, what? Like when itâÂÂs on my shoe itâÂÂs dirt, and when itâÂÂs on the ground it isnâÂÂt? This simplistic answer didnâÂÂt quite satisfy.[the reporter]
    So when he was able to corner Megonigal, he asked for some clarification. As he described it, soil is the compilation of minerals, air, water, animals and other living matter (and their wastes or decaying bodies) that accumulate in layers and become compacted over time. Indeed, soils are laid down in discrete horizons (his name for those layers) and whose compositions vary over time and space.
    When particles of that soil erode or are dug up, they lose the âÂÂhistoryâ of their place, he says ��" essentially their associations with particles that might have been above, below, and to their sides.
    It sounds like heâÂÂs saying soil is the diverse but integrated community of living and inanimate things that make up the ground beneath our feet. And dirt? ItâÂÂs a group of runaways or kidnapped individuals that canâÂÂt easily be associated with where they were born and grew up. In a sense, theyâÂÂre particles that have been rendered anonymous.

    The reporter went on to say: I think people should use words carefully and appropriately. If, however, the distinction is all but moot, letâÂÂs not get too silly about this. When I got back to my office, this afternoon, I did look up both terms in my trusty desk dictionary (a reporterâÂÂs best friend) and found one definition of dirt as âÂÂloose or packed soil or sand: EARTH.â And a definition for soil was âÂÂfirm land: EARTH.âÂÂ
    If one of you agronomists or soil scientists out there cares to weigh in, please be my guest."

    (Joanne--the above are quotes, not my comments)

    The comments to this ranged around the definitions of the word usage of "horizons" ......

  • lucky123
    9 years ago

    Joanne Your Quote:
    Soil (verb) "It sounds like heâÂÂs saying SOIL is the diverse but integrated community of living and inanimate things that make up *the STRUCTURE* of the ground (DIRT)."

    House (Verb)..It sounds like I was saying HOUSE is the diverse but integrated community of building materials that make up the *STRUCTURE* of Home.

    "Soil" in a strictly horticultural context is the Structure of the Dirt, not the dirt itself.

    It is not allowed to dismiss or redefine a fine old English word "dirt" to a more refined euphemism "soil" if "dirt" is too low brow or has the newer substitute meanings of "filthy" or "foul."

    Dirt is a noun. Nouns are devilish when used to replace older, more appropriate verbs. We have bastardizations such as "dirtying." Then we have "American Soil" used in an amusing/insulting way when "soil" is and always has been a verb meaning to besmirch, begrime and bespatter. I must ask "American(s) soil what?" American soil requires a direct object, in fact. Those are fighting words, yes!

    Dirt is dirt. It is the ground beneath our feet.

    This post was edited by lucky123 on Wed, Oct 1, 14 at 23:22

  • fortyseven_gw
    9 years ago

    HI,
    I thought this part was amusing: "And dirt? ItâÂÂs a group of runaways or kidnapped individuals that canâÂÂt easily be associated with where they were born and grew up. In a sense, theyâÂÂre particles that have been rendered anonymous."
    They are talking about the specialized way the terms are used in horticulture, Otherwise, they are "synonyms." One is more colloquial, the other, more exact.
    Cheers!

  • quimoi
    9 years ago

    I agree with Linda. You need to identify what you have. My son said to drop them into alcohol (I had rather mangled mine). I am still not sure if it was thrips. I only saw three and they were staggering along the shelves - never found a one on a plant. I treated that room with Marathon though. I think they came in with the window a/c.

    The jeweler's loupe is standard av equipment for paranoid growers and some have lighted ones. (A little paranoia is a good thing.) Lacking the light, I use a strong flashlight with mine :) There are some good insect pages on the web, but once you get one of the critters and get a good look at it, you can id it (we hope anyway). Go look at the springtails and thrips. I don't know if Steve Reed still has all those bug photos or not.

    If you think there's a problem, it's better to treat for the actual problem than use ineffective products.

    Good luck.

    Diana

  • judyj
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Well, these bugs aren't causing any problems right now.

    What type of jeweler's loup do you folks use? Mostly I'm looking at the magnification element.

    There's lots online, but not sure which one to look at.

    And wouldn't dropping a baby in alcohol kill it? Just wondering!

    Thanks!

    Best,
    Judy

  • quimoi
    9 years ago

    Drop the bug into the alcohol - unless you are planning on raising them. Mashing them makes them harder to identify. I'm no thrips expert, but there are foliar thrips, I believe. I would want to rule that out.

    Soil has 3 separate entries in my unabridged dictionary. The second definition for dirt is "earth or soil."

    Diana

    This post was edited by quimoi on Thu, Oct 2, 14 at 21:25

  • lucky123
    9 years ago

    Diana
    A final word:
    A House is not a Home.
    That is a Rule of English, not a statement of sentiment.
    House is a verb, home is a noun.

    House and Home are Not Synonymous.

    "The Dept of Houseland Security warns of an attack on American House."

    "He went house."

    "House" is an Action taken upon a diverse collection of organic and inorganic materials to provide shelter, home, kennel, stable, nest for a resident thereof. It is structure, structuring of home.

    In a horticultural sense, "Soil" is an Action taken up the diverse collection of materials both organic and inorganic. It is structure, structuring of dirt.

    Soil is the verb. Dirt is the noun.

    Soil and Dirt are Not Synonymous.

    That is the simplest explanation as all English words must follow the Rules.

    You may say anything you like but know the rules. I use "stuff" (verb) as a noun as in "my stuff" or "that stuff" but a competent editor would never allow and, to my knowledge, never has allowed "stuff (noun)" to be published except as quote or dialect.

    However I will add:

    Murdering the Queen' English is the National Sport and favorite pastime of the Brit's while Americans, myself included, are hell-bent on proving that Warren G. Harding was not the only one who could write a simple declarative sentence with seven grammatical errors.

    This post was edited by lucky123 on Fri, Oct 3, 14 at 17:13

  • quimoi
    9 years ago

    African Violets Forum

    or did I wander in somewhere else?

    house is a verb and a noun

    and home is a noun and an intransitive verb but they are both OT.

    We generally use peat-based potting media. I used to use woods dirt a/k/a forest humus but costlier.

    Just because you don't believe in treating for pests doesn't mean that other people shouldn't.l

    Diana

  • judyj
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    In order to freely mingle, we must all agree to disagree on certain topics! :-) Varying definitions for words are part of what makes the English language interesting-and difficult for others to learn! However, I'm going to post a new thread on Jeweler's loops or something similar! Thank you all for your help and input identifying bugs first-I'll try to do that before I do anything, having a fairly healthy dislike for using any kind of 'cides!

    Have a wonderful weekend!

    Best,
    Judy

  • lucky123
    9 years ago

    Diana
    This is not OT. Soil is an important concept. What "soil" means, as Joanne pointed out, is vague within the Horticultural community and dismissing dirt as "misplaced soil" is not helpful. The term "American Soil" does not sit well with many Americans so I am trying to analyze why the word soil, so benign in horticultural context, is offensive in that phrase.
    What is Soil?
    My Conclusion:
    The medium in my flower bed is Soil. I have acted upon it, tested it, tilled it, amended it but the raw earth outside my fence is Dirt.

    This Conclusion applies to horticultural activities only. "Soil" used in other contexts has different meanings. However, in all instances, soil is a verb and the rules for verbs apply.

    OT
    House is a Noun? Where in the entire body of English Literature has the word "house" been written as a noun?
    I will write it now.
    Housey or Housy.

    To say that house is a noun is to fall afoul of the fundamental Rule of English. Do Not Add "Y" to Verbs.
    House, Housing is correct. House is a verb.

    This post was edited by lucky123 on Sat, Oct 4, 14 at 5:41

  • quimoi
    9 years ago

    The House at Pooh Corner

  • lucky123
    9 years ago

    Diana
    The housing at Pooh's Corner where Pooh houses his possessions and where Pooh himself is housed.

    The house that Jack built. Jack built that house.

    The verb "house" can function as the subject of a sentence or phrase. And the verb "house" can function as a direct object.

    The simplest explanation is to compare the verb "house" to the verb "plant."

    "The planter planted the plant."
    There are two articles(the), three (3) verbs and No (0) Nouns in that sentence.

    "The woman planted the wheat."
    There are two articles (the), one verb and two nouns in that sentence.

    The root words "house" and "plant are verbs regardless of where the words are used within the structure of the sentence. The word "planter" is a verb. It is not a noun even though it is a person or thing, because the person/thing is subordinate to the action. Without the Action (verb "plant) the person/thing "planter" does not exist.

    "Woman" "wheat" and "home" are nouns because those are persons or things unique unto themselves, no action required.

    House conjugates; therefore, house is a verb.

    In all cases, the word "house" must follow the rules governing verbs.

    Advanced English Off Topic

    This post was edited by lucky123 on Sun, Oct 12, 14 at 12:00

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