Your "contributions" show, but the impact of (T)MV on certain Dicotyledon plants. In this context here, they are of little, if of any value. You are yet to provide PROOF AND EVIDENCE, that TMV has a substancial, detrimental impact on Hippeastrum bulbs. IF you want to TEACH me, then I have to teach YOU, that your contributions on THIS occasion should APPLY to Hippeastrums. If not then these infos are misleading. Including PDF-Files makes you look sophisticated but on a "superficial" regard.

Allan
Although you have not supplied a close up, from your pictures of the leaves I cannot see any evidence of MV ?

How bout this y'all ?

{{gwi:422632}}

This looks like "Mosaic + high Temperatures" to me.

My only question about virus is how does one go about cleaning their pots so they can be reused? I'm assuming that good ol' Clorox will sterilize the pots, but wanted to hear from others.

By the way, my biggest problem is rust on my Hippis and many Crinum. Is there anything people use rather than something like Captan? Here in Pittsburgh, if you keep the plants outside rust is a massive problem with the constant rain and humidity we have. I treat maybe 3-4 times per summer but that is not nearly enough :o) Dan

Yup Hanz.
Regarding pots: I just suck it up and throw them out with the plant. Though, bleach probably works.
Rust is an issue here in Houston (though not this year). I use combination of attacks. I increase, to the max, ventilation even removing leaves in late summer. I also use both topical and systemic fungicides as needed.

Pat, what do you use as a fungicide? I have used Captan, but I could also use something like Daconil I suppose.....any thoughts as I would like to hammer my plants at least 2 more times before we get way too cold......my Amazonian plants like the Dracontium are just about to come inside as are some of my Amorphs that are nearly evergreen or small and nice for a window or under lights. Hard to believe the summer growing season is almost over :o) Dan

I did the same - discard the entire pots.
NO "NEW INTRODUCTIONS" - during the last 4 Years. I have no clue how I would react if my "creations" revealed mosaic; heaven forbid, the mere thought.
It appears "highly indicated" to place every new bulb - that it might introduce, much alike the Trojan horse - disaster to your collection, into Quarantine for let's say, half a year. I had had several bulbs with mosaic in the past. These were all potted TET bulbs. And they would reveal themselves rather SOON, after the flowers had wilted, namely when the leaves had grown up to approx. half their final size.

When I recall my "history of collecting bulbs" -
ALL DIPS had been "clean" to name some of these that are still precious to me: Potted bulbs: H.aulicum v.robustum, "Tango", "Reggae", "Exotic Star", "Striped Panther" (= 2, 3, or 4n? I don't know)
Bare bulbs: "Pink Floyd", "Chico", "Giraffe", H.papilio

Potted TETs specimens that WERE!virused: "Salmon", "Intokazi", "Gilmar" (actually an older TET hybrid, not the true, modern version with smaller flowers) and another unnamed red one with short white midribs)
The one-and-only specimen that became "spontaneously" infected from mosaic (I never found the explanation) was one specimen of "Orange Sovereign". And "better" (even mysterious) yet: At the windowsill, not outsdoors(!)

Hard to believe your growing season is almost over Dan. Houston has had a roasting hot/dry summer 109F Saturday.
Captan is good. I really don't have much trouble with rust on Hippeastrum, mostly on Plumeria. I use Myclobutanil as a granular systemic, and Propiconazole (Banner) as a liquid systemic. 'Halt' Dimethyl is also popular.

Yeah Hanz, I have a small area where I can quarantine any suspect plants. I prefer not to take risks of infection.

Hans,

I was supplying information to others that may also grow fruiting vegetables which Tobacco Mosaic Virus can spread which is another negative impact of the virus. If you read my posts you can read what I'm talking about but you skip over everything I have to say. I was not comparing Hippeastrum to Peppers or Tomatoes.

"TMV can infect many different genera of plants which can become quite destructive."

This is a statement from one of my very first posts, the information AFTER this message is to support THAT statement.

Just because you have Hippeastrum in your yard doesn't mean the virus wont spread to all your other plants which can also wreak havoc, there are many negative impacts of these viruses.

Sadly my growing season is almost over too, it feels like it JUST started!!!!!!!!!!!!! I've had some good results this year from new fertilizer which uses primarily Nitrate for Nitrogen, many of my baby bulbs have doubled in size if not tripled!

Dan, I would soak your pots in a 10% bleach solution. I wash mine in the dishwasher as the water gets extremely hot, it's quick and pretty painless!

I concur with Hans on Pats leaf.I have seen excessive liquid fertilizer and sunlight to produce that tip burn,as well as just heast.The mosaic looks like mine.I use ten percent bleach for at least an hour,to, hopefully, sterilize pots. I have no scientific data to prove or disprove its effectivenress.It works in tissue culture.
I have never before heard of a Papilio showing mosaic virus.
I believe Intokazi may have been the bulb which introduced mosaic to my collection.
Allan, I would very much like to see close up photos of your infected leaves,particularly those of Papilio.
Dan, I use cleary 3336 (thiophanate methyl)dithane M45 and captan.Copper sulphate hasd some value too.I have used others,but most have been banned.
Del

I think the most important issue to keeping a clean collection is to use a systemic insecticide exactly like the label suggests!

There are many forms such as Bayer Rose and Tree spray, soil drench and time released pellets. If you keep the bugs out of your collection it's much more difficult to transmit virus to other plants!

Del, I haven't seen H. papilio with symptoms of virus either. According to Dr. Alan Meerow he hasn't either, there was a lady here who tested a clump of papilio and Hippeastrum hybridum and the hybrid showed virus whereas H. papilio did not.

Several other Hippeastrum species seem to be resistant to virus infection such as H. brasilianum and possibly H. glaucescens. H. aulicum I have seen with virus on multiple occasions as well as H. calyptratum.

I have had a hard time finding Captan this year. Someone in CA suggested that perhaps they were phasing it out....?? Hope note.

I am happy to report that the only virus in my Hippeastrum are those plants under screen. I hit them all with systemic insecticide (Bayer 3 in 1)...and go through so much, but at $12 (on sale) it's a bargain.

Pat....cooler temps tomorrow (98!) and then...just maybe, we'll get rain!
YAY!
Kristi

Here is a link that might be useful: Captan online ordering

Dan,
I want to make sure you call the rust? There is a fungal disease stagonospora curtisÃÂÃÂ and still suffers hippeastrum anthracnose (Colletotrichum crassipes). Rust hippeastrum I've never seen before.
Many time ago I brought back from the expedition, for wild irises pumila. In this population, there was rust iris (puccinia iridis). Deal with it is very difficult. Helped change all the plants in other garden.I removed all the affected leaves, soaked in a fungicide. In winter, sheltered soil. In spring the leaves had grown and were healthy.
But in my local in nature, no rust. So what happened to rust?
It "ate" soil microorganisms.

On viral infection.
I have not yet found in the publications of proven data about the disease hippeastrum tobacco mosaic virus(TMV). There is evidence of amaryllis mosaic virus and a bronze leaf spot, caused by tomato spotted wilt virus. The diagnosis proved no reference to the publications,but a thorough study in a specialized laboratory serological ,electron microscopy and other studies.
As vectors of infection can be any living organism capable of moving and damaging the plant, in particular - the nematodes,aphids, beetles, caterpillars, larvae of narcissus flies, slugs and so on. And also by purely mechanical means friction sheet of patient health.
Dan,
Viruses are much more resistant than other microorganisms because they have no their own metabolism. So radical they could be destroyed by boiling. To chemicals is better not to hope.
Oleg, Dr.(biology)

Charles of HEDCO as quoted above has confirmed that;
Hippeastrum mosaic virus is not the same as tomato or cucumber MV.
Many Commercial growers are maintaining and selling their infected stock, also confirmed by, allan.
Almost all my plants have the mosaic leaves. I have yet to see crippled leaves, stunted growth, defoliation, necrosis, deformed flowers or un-attractive appearance.
As I have already said I destroyed one plant 10 years ago and will never do it again just because of mosaic leaves. I have grown Cherry tomatoes adjacent to these infected hippes and non-caught the virus.

Thank you for your observations,
Oleg and Arif.
OWN Observation, OWN experience that's it where it is AT.

The only Knight Star Lily that I would purchase through mail-order is the creamy white 8-umbelled that Allan created. It is just too seductive... Best symmetry that I observed in a white; brioadv "butterfly" segments!
The mere thought, of obtaining a virused bulb through a commercial supplier, OUTRAGES ME. Period. Heaven forbid...
Instead I have planned, FIRST PRIORITY, to pollinate "Ambiance" with "PapMinPic" in spring 2012

AND, who knows, if I am lukky then Allan will obtain seeds from 8-pack creamy white and send me!

Tobacco Mosaic Virus can effect Hippeastrum as well as tomatos and peppers. TMV infects a huge list of plants.

Here is an article written about TMV, Tomato Spotted Wilt and Cumcumber Mosaic Virus and how they can all manifest in Hippeastrum hybridum.

There have been plenty of studies noting that TMV can infect Hippeastrum hybridum

This article contains citations for further information if you'd like to read them for reference

Here is a link that might be useful: Virus In Hippeatsrum

Tobacco Mosaic Virus (TMV), Cucumber Mosaic Virus (CMV) and Hippeastrum Mosaic Virus (HiMV) are all different BUT they can all affect Hippeastrum and a very large amount of other plants that people may grow!

These viruses are becoming a HUGE problem in the world of fruits, vegetables and tobacco (which is disgusting anyway) as it really slows down crop production or causes poor yields for farmers.

The whole point of the matter is that these companies must be aware they're selling infected stock and consistently spreading the virus to other areas! This is an issue that could be better controlled and it makes me upset these bulbs are being sold knowingly sick!

I found this partial list of plants that can become infected with Tobacco Mosaic Virus....

ALL I CAN SAY IS WOW... This is only a PARTIAL list which is much longer with all the more uncommon ornamental plants which people grow such as Hippeastrum, Ismene, Eucharis and many others from the Amaryllid family!

amaranthus
apple
apple-of-Peru
beans
bedstraw
beet, garden
beggarticks
bindweed
black nightshade
browallia
buckwheat
bugleweed
butter-and-eggs
calendula
California bluebell
California rose
campion, evening
cape-gooseberry
cape-marigold
carpetweed
carrot
celandine
celosia
centaurea
chickweed
China-aster
Chinese forget-me-not
Chinese lanternplant
chrysantheumum
cleome
cowpea
cranesbill, Carolina
cress
currants, red and black
delphiniums
dock
dracocephalum
eggplant
elder
euphorbia
false jerusalem-cherry
figwart
fleabane, daisy
foxglove
galinsoga
gerneria
gilia
gloxinia
goosefoot (lambsquarters)
grapevine
groundcherry
gypsophila
hawkweed
hedgemustard
helianthus
henbane
henbits
horsenettle
horseweed
hounds tongue
husk tomato
iberis
Indian tobacco
Jerusalem-cherry
Jimson weed
Kenilworth ivy
knotweed
kochia
ladysthumb
larkspur
lobelia
lunaria
lycium
malcolmia
marigold, French
marshgrass
mesembryanthemum
Mexican-tea
morning-glory
mouse-eared chickweed
mullein
mustards
New Zealand spinach
nierembergia
nightshades
orchids
pear
pennyroyal, American
penstemon
peppers
peppergrass
petunia
phacelias
phlox
physalis spp.
Pigweed
plantains
pokeweed
polygonums
potato
proboscisflower
purslane
reseda
ribgrass
salpiglossis
scabiosa
sheep sorrel
shepherds-purse
smartweed
snapdragon
solanums
speedwell
spinach
sugar beet
sunflowers
tasselflower
tobaccos
turnip
verbena, white
water-horehound, stalked
wisteria
zinnia

About TMV
[citate]Considered [b]not normally transmissible by arthropods[/b] but is readily spread between plants by contact and by man during cultural operations.[/end of citate]
Explanation: The insects are not a vector of transmission of TMV. But it can be mechanically inoculated, respectively, the typical disease of hippeastrum it is not.

So...last year as I was cutting leaves (YES!) and trimming necks, I used a very long knife. In between contact with each and every bulb (absolutely no exception), I thrust the knife all the way to the handle into a bottle of strong alcohol...just in case there were any infected bulbs that were not yet showing signs.

This year, I haven't seen a single bulb with virus. I hit them twice during the growing season with a systemic insecticide...even the bulblets and seedlings. I think (hope) I am on the right track. Also...I will try again to run some crude antiviral experiment with some pharmaceutical and natural agents while bulbs are dormant.

Temp is finally down below 100!! YAY!
:-)
Kristi in Spring

This year, I haven't seen a single bulb with virus.

Does this include any bulb, that HAD shown mosaic in the previous season(s); or did you discard these, all?

Kristi,

It sounds like you've gotta a pretty good hold on your Hippeastrum :) WOOHOO!!!!!!!!

I've disposed of all my virused Hipps and this year with NO new acquisitions yet I haven't seen any symptoms of virus except for on a few of the species from Doran's collection!

Josh

JOSHIS LINK
Diagnostic species
Hippeastrum hybridum. Irregular light and dark green mosaic patterns on leaves and flower stalks, especially conspicuous in intolerant cultivars (Fig.1). Flowers are usually symptomless.
DPV117 Figure 01
Hippeastrum mosaic virus
Main Diseases
Causes mosaic diseases in Hippeastrum equestre and cultivated species and hybrids of Hippeastrum. It occurs also in Crinum, Hymenocallis, Isomene, Phaedranassa and Urceolina (Brunt, 1973), and possibly several related genera (Hannibal, 1942). Transmission through Seed
Not seed-borne in Hippeastrum hybridum.
Flower stalk shows the same patterns; mine do not.
It occurs also in Crinum & Hymenocallis; mine growing among the Hippeastrums have not been affected.
It is not seed-born in Hippeastrum; all of mine 15 month old seedlings have the same pattern.
PERHAPS THE MOSAIC PATTERN ON LEAVES OF MY HIPPEASTRUMS IS DUE TO SOME OTHER FACTOR.

Arif, did you analyze the soil for acidity, as well as the content of salts of calcium and magnesium? The water you use for irrigation is not too hard? Maybe your not hippeastrum viral infection but an ordinary chlorosis?

Arif,

It's possible that it may not be virus although 15 months is more than enough time for seedlings to become infected with any type of virus.

Also, many viruses can stay in infected soil and infect future plants which would be an easy way for seedlings to become reinfected as well as bugs, human hands and so on.

This year, I haven't seen a single bulb with virus...except for the virused bulbs that are being grown under screen. Meaning...no transmission to my collection, no new infected bulbs, etc.

I still have several infected bulbs growing under fine screen...I figure if I am going to try and run some crude experiments to impact virus, I have to have some around to work with. I'm just glad that it is limited to those known to have it.
K

Kristi,

Are you planning to do any heat treatment as well? I'm looking into heat treating a few of my bulbs that are disposable, I need to figure out a safe way to keep them hot.

Josh, can I ask? For what purpose do you plan to heat treatment?
I did it.

Oleg,

There is a way to clean a virused plant by heat treatment. I know some labs do it when they do TC and they heat treat the plants to grow them virus free.... I'm not really sure of the details but I want to study it as much as possible as I've heard of some doing home-heating to treat virus and disease!

I know bulbs can handle heat treating much more than other plants considering they're pretty indestructible!

What did you do to heat treat your plants, did you get any results? I would love to know what happened?

Josh

Yes, the heat treatment is done for the release of plant tissues from viruses. But at home it's almost not feasible.
To do this, cut under the microscope in a sterile box apical meristem. Then it was cultivated by the method of tissue culture at the maximum temperature. It is believed that in such circumstances, no reproduction of viral particles.
And they do not have time to penetrate the apex, where cells are rapidly dividing. Then isolate the apex and from the growing virus-free starting material, designated the M-0. This method is very time-consuming, requires a specially equipped laboratory and expensive.
smaller dishes.I did heat treatment in order to awaken the dormant bulbs. Here's how I did it.
This requires a capacity of about 50 dishes liters, accurate, better than a mercury thermometer, another smaller dishes.
Big dishes set on a gas stove and heated water tity of rooms to 45 degrees Celsius. In a smaller dishes, too, poured water and placed inside the larger. Measured the temperature of the floating termometer.Then, when the temperature of the water in a small boat, alone reached 45 degrees, I put the bulbs in a small pot and kept them there for 4 hours. Should monitor the temperature of water to keep it from dropping below 43 and did not increase more than 45 degrees.At the end of treatment must be rapidly cooled bulbs, just remove them from the dishes and omit it in cold water. Drain.
Results: not all varieties are well tolerated treatment. Cybisters were more susceptible, they have damaged after treatment with floral scape, the plants do not bloom. All my bulbs are healthy.One untreated bulb, it has already been planted, and that she was infected with a virus. This treatment is has destroyed the potential of pests and disease spores.
That's what I did and these are the results.However, I have no right to say that this method will destroy the viral infection.
I hope that my modest experience will be useful.

I had also done heat treatment with good and steady results as per the Read book. I was looking at some botanical antivirals as well as pharmaceutical agents.
Kristi

Thanks Christy, I wish you success in your experiments and I hope to read about them on this forum. :)

Do the leaves show mosaic pattern?
{{gwi:422634}}
Arif

I am inclined to say "no" - but seriously Arif, how can you expect a diagnosis from such a little picture?

This is not making sense.

If TMV is really as contagious and threatening as everyone is suggesting, it seems that every susceptible plant on Earth would already have it since the vast majority of plants in nature or otherwise are in close proximity to others of one of the vulnerable species, and because it seems to be pervasive enough that it pops up here and there rarely without an observed vector.

If it really infects so many species, can live dormant in soil for decades and infect future plants, spreads readily, cannot be killed by freezing, and permanently infects its hosts, how can you ever truly protect plants by reducing exposure? Meanwhile I'm sure that TMV has existed far longer than there have been human beings to selectively pluck and eradicate infected plants to control the spread.

I would suspect that there is just a lot that is still unknown to science about the virus, and about plant immunity.

Perhaps TMV is able to infect many plants, but the source is usually tobacco itself. It would be like the avian flu which can infect humans but always comes from birds, and can't be transmitted human-to-human. That type of situation would make sense to me that TMV would follow humans around because humans are carrying around cigarettes. So we'd see it - as we do - in domesticated plants, but it wouldn't be wiping out huge plant populations all on its own in nature.

I meant to type, it pops up here and there rarely WITH an observed vector.

EVERYONE?

"Ich darf doch sehr bitten!"
["Would you mind"]
IOW: Please, kindly EX-clude me from the very cohort (if there is actually one) that service a TMV-Paranoia *giggling*

Hello, Hans
Cant do any better. These are 3 month old seedlings.
{{gwi:422635}}From Misc.

Arif

Hello, Hans
Cant do any better. These are 3 month old seedlings.
{{gwi:422635}}From Misc.

Arif

Hi,
JUMPING TO THE CONCLUSION
We all love to do so, especially when we know a little about it. As a medical student I thought I had every disease I studied. One sign or symptom is not enough to diagnose any case. A large percentage of patients get cured and leave the hospital without being diagnosed.
If I can go on with 4 bi-passes, Hypertension, Glaucoma and positional vertigo besides other symptoms of old age, why can�t my poor Hippeastrums with mosaic patterned leaves?
Sir I conclude my discussion on the subject.
Arif

Arif, are you indicating that you disagree with requiring proof and evidence for claims? As to your seedlings, I still cannot detect any mosaic. Did you perceive something that looked like mosaic?

To my understanding, Hippeastrums live forth "very well" after an infection with Mosaic Virus. Everybody must decide for themselves, whether they tolerate infected specimens within their collection, that this will lead to eventual spread of the infection throughout the collection, and prevents from giving bulbs to others with "a clear conscience".
Professionals trading mosaic infected bulbs worldwide, are criminals.

Hello.
Hans, Thank you , you have already accepted my option. Yes I will warn every one about the infection who wants a gift (I dont sell).

All this reminds me of Marek's disease in poultry. Some of the ornamental breeders on finding Marek's in one bird cull their whole flocks over and over. On discussing this with my avian veterinarian he says that all birds carry Marek's but, some show symptoms and some do not via stress or poor genetics.

One of my friends that had a large collection of Hippeastrum collection gave me his entire collection because of perceived TMV several years ago (large). He was going to burn them. I adjusted the PH of the soil, sprayed for bugs, and all turned back a dark green. Go figure. Are they infected? I don't really care. They bloom and grow fine for a long time. A few look mosaic when I first drag them out of the basement and put in the full sun when their leaves are burned. Maybe that is what he saw. Who knows.

Among my garbled msg above I forgot to mention that the flowers above look really nice. Thanks for the photo.

I wonder if any of you have tried this on confirmed TMV infected bulbs? I would on my bulbs but, I really don't think they have the problem and the former owner was overreacting due to ph/mineral deficiency/sunburn/insect bites. (PH way too high,visible bites, He grew them in clay cat litter with miracle grow.)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15627393
sodium dodecyl sulfate
Doesn't hurt to try.

hi i dont know if this will help but u could have mealy bug in your bulbs they will give the same look to your leaves u may not see any evidance of them because they are so deep in the bulb use a good mealy bug killer every two weeks for 8 weeks and realy drench them u wont see any difference to your bulbs until they come up next year i got this info from mick maguire it fixed the problem on my leaves i paid over $100 for 1 litre of the incectide that i used regards and happy growing danny

Hi Allan, please contact me