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Looks like one last bloom before I pitch it

Posted by paul_ z5 MI (My Page) on
Thu, Aug 4, 11 at 21:44

Well looks like my Oskar is going to give me one last blooming before I consign it to the dumpster. Why throw it away you ask? -- I'm pretty sure it is virused.

When it bloomed for me this past New Year's I had noticed a streak that I wondered if might be color break. Being into orchids, I am aware that color break is often indicative of a virus. Shortly thereafter, a member on this forum mentioned that this crop of Oskars seemed to be virused and I'm quite sure mine is as well. (The leaf color seems similar to what that poster said to look for as well.) I put it outside on my balcony once it warmed up figuring I'd give it one last "summer in the sun" as it were. So today I notice a spike emerging. I figure I'll let it do its thing one last time.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Looks like one last bloom before I pitch it

  • Posted by haweha 7/Germany/W (My Page) on
    Fri, Aug 5, 11 at 12:41

Some white streaks occasionally appear, and they are conspicuous in otherwise purely red flowers, and they are very common in Hippeastrums, and they do not indicate mosaic virus. If you observe zones of sharp transitions between dark- and bright green, on the leaf, particularly conspicuous towards the tip, then THAT is a manifestation of mosaic.


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RE: Looks like one last bloom before I pitch it

Hans, color breaks are signs of MV in any plant that may carry it, Hippeastrum are no exception.

'Oskar' is virused and horribly at that..


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RE: Looks like one last bloom before I pitch it

  • Posted by haweha 7/Germany/W (My Page) on
    Fri, Aug 5, 11 at 13:21

Color break as indication for Mosaic virus MIGHT be correct. However, this is not identical with sporadic white streaks.


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RE: Looks like one last bloom efore I pitch it

The Rembrandt collection of tulips are a VERY good example, they were incredibly beautiful but the virus is what caused the color breaks of white. I'm posting a link explaining it.

Also, there is a page on the Pacific Bulb Society that speaks about color breaks in the flowers and what this signifies.

I'm not saying ALL color breaks are virus 'Gervase' is an exception, this bulb has unstable genes that cause the color break but a random white streak here and there 9/10 indicate MV.

Below I'm posting a link about the 'Tulip Break Virus' which is Mosaic Virus... Hippeastrum aren't an exception as they're some of the easiest to come down with virus.

Here is a link that might be useful: Tulip Breaking Virus


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RE: Looks like one last bloom before I pitch it

  • Posted by haweha 7/Germany/W (My Page) on
    Fri, Aug 5, 11 at 17:53

This does not refute my statement
"Color Break might indicate Mosaic Virus"

You falsely assume that the REVERSE holds true as, on this occasion (Knight star Lilies)
"Mosaic Virus will manifest in Color Break in Hippeastrum"

You can only prove your point if you show me one flower of Hippeastrum with somewhat that can be truly akknowledged as "Color Break" I predict that you will find NONE.

From what I ever saw, that it REMINDS me to, let's say, some degree, of color break, is some Flowers that our friend BrigArif showed. But, I attribute this impairment to the truly extreme temperatures that his bulbs are exposed to, up to 46 degree CELSIUS.
I had Mosaic Virus on "Salmon" and on "Orange Sovereign" and neither produced regular color breaks.

On the other hand, I perceive the occasional white streaks appearing on my Hippeastrums, randomly, and my Hippeastrums are clearly NOT mosaic-ed.


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RE: Looks like one last bloom before I pitch it

Hans,

My 'Oskar' has breaking in the flowers indicative of Mosaic Virus.

Color breaking isn't always prevelant and doesn't have to happen on a schedule, leaves don't always show MV but that doesn't eliminate them from having the virus. Plants may never show symptoms of color breaking and they may, it is all dependant on conditions of the plant.

Whether you disregard this information is up to you but Mosiac Virus can cause color breaking on the tepalsegs, leaves and various other parts of the plant.

"and they do not indicate mosaic virus."

This is the statement you made earlier in the post, the second statement from the second post was:
"Color break as indication for Mosaic virus MIGHT be correct. However, this is not identical with sporadic white streaks. "

Color breaking on the flowers can be sporadic white streaking.

Color breaks are related to MV whether you regard it as so. There are plenty of pictuers on the web of flowers showing color breaking. In that aspect, I would have pictures of my 'Oskar' showing color breaks as well as the original poster and this clone is known to be virused. Whether we took pictures is irrelevant.


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Example

  • Posted by haweha 7/Germany/W (My Page) on
    Fri, Aug 5, 11 at 18:15

Photobucket
"PapDon2" x "Salmon"

Are we actually talking about THIS?
This is not mosaic virus: The other florets were "clean" and the respective gren leaves "clean" too


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Challenge

  • Posted by haweha 7/Germany/W (My Page) on
    Fri, Aug 5, 11 at 18:19

Josh, simply show me the proof and evidence.
Include some "Rembrandteous Hippeastrum" here.


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RE: Looks like one last bloom before I pitch it

I'm supplying an article below with information on Petunia hybrids with TMV, TMV causes color breaks in flowers of infected plants. TMV isn't isolated to tobacco, it infects a large variety of Generas in several Families.. There is a PDF file on the webpage that explains TMV and color breaking in more detail. It also shows the difference between plants with and without.

Hans, the picture you show above has charecterisc color breaking that could very well be caused by TMV or HiMV.

In my first response I posted information about the Mosaic Virus that shows color breaking in Tulips.

Here is a link that might be useful: TMV Causing Color Breaking


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RE: Looks like one last bloom before I.... pitch it

Here is an article about color breaking in Orchid's from Mosaic Virus, you can read the PDF at the link below, it shows pictures as well..

Here is a link that might be useful: Orchid Viruses


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RE: Looks like one last bloom before I pitch it

Gentlemen...

Now I find myself going through all my pictures looking for color breaks..I find a picture of Charisma with color breaks..so I google Charisma and find that this variety appears to have may images on the Internet with color breaks..so I will ask, what do you think of this picture..

Donna


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RE: Looks like one last bloom before I pitch it

Excellent example, since this kind of dis-coloration is rather seldom [seldom to be perceiv-able] in Hippeastrum flowers that have large proportions of "no color" = white.

This is not an indication that the plant is infected from Mosaic Virus. While any freshly purchased Hippeastrum bulb invokes a-new, the risk that you introduce mosaic virus into your collection, this is not associated with this color impairment. It will be revealed upon a closer inspection on the leaves when these have reached a certain size, particularly conspicuous towards the tips.


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RE: Looks like one last bloom before I pitch it

Without first hand seeing plants over a period of time I can't determine the existence of mosaic.I simply don't know through your pictures.I do know that mosaic manifests its self with widely varying symptoms.Sometimes the only symptom is that other plants around the infected plant will repeatedly manifest symptoms.I have some varieties which only show almost indistinct difference in dark and light shading,apparent only in bright sunlight. These are apparently vigorous,healthy plants,heavily watered and fertilized. When I starve them,with pure sand and little water the symptoms become more evident.
Del


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RE: Looks like one last bloom before I pitch it

Is this what we are talking about ?

Photobucket
Photobucket
Photobucket


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RE: Looks like one last bloom before I pitch it

Thank you for showing Arif! This is what I had in mind and referred to. These are literal breaks.
Occasional, SINGLE white LINES are not "breaks"


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RE: Looks like one last bloom before I pitch it

Those are what you referred to? You thought they were none existent!


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RE: Looks like one last bloom before I pitch it

They did not repeat the next year and plant remained healthy. Most years I do get one or two like that but none in the last spring.
Arif


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RE: Looks like one last bloom before I pitch it

Me thinks, we should not bother with quibbles. I referred to Arif's Hippeastrums (see above) and he kindly included these here. It would be certainly more in our interest, to retrieve from Arif, whether these Hippeastrum showed mosaic symptoms on their leaves.


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RE: Looks like one last bloom before I pitch it

Arif,

A lot of times these symptoms may not show themselves frequently and they may never show again. Those flowers are indicative of Mosaic Virus BUT you can never be sure until they're tested and THEN sometimes those tests are inconclusive as demonstrated in a previous thread!

The flowers are quite beautiful, are these your creations!?!

Hans,

I like to pass around knowledge to others, I thought it was upsetting when you asked for proof of the situation because of uncertainty instead of researching it yourself, this would have caused a lot less confusion for others as well as making me feel ignorant. I supplied multiple articles that you requested about TMV that states its ability to create breaking in the flowers and yet you still seemed skeptical, at the end only to insinuate you suggested such symptoms earlier in the thread when I bent over backwards to prove to you they exist.

We are all knowledgeable about Hippeastrum and we should learn from each other without disrespect to ones knowledge. I have learned this lesson from myself in the past.



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RE: Looks like one last bloom before I pitch it

Hello, Joshy,
Yes those are my MONGRALS.
When I started breeding, I marked the parentage but later I found it was of no use to me.
WHY ?
CHARISMA X APHRODITE

From Chrisma X Aphrodite

From Chrisma X Aphrodite

From Chrisma X Aphrodite

From Chrisma X Aphrodite

From Chrisma X Aphrodite

From Chrisma X Aphrodite

From Chrisma X Aphrodite

From Chrisma X Aphrodite

From Chrisma X Aphrodite

Now I cross what comes to my mind and see what gets created, select what I like and discard the rest and call them MONGRALS.
Arif


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RE: Looks like one last bloom before I pitch it

Arif,

They're all SO beautiful, not one looks to be a "Mongrel" to me!!!!!!!!

That last one with picotee, stunning and the two doubles, the white with picotee and the one above...WOW.. They're amazing!


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RE: Looks like one last bloom before I pitch it

1,4&5 are discards. What I want to point out is the extreem variation and yet there is one thing common, the red margin and the dots.
We have digressed from the subject.

Joshy, if you saw this on your plants what would you do?
Pot of Lemon Lime

From Misc.

Two leaves from the same bulb, younger above the older.
From Misc.

The aggressive seedling 15 months old with her pups.
From Misc.

Arif


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RE: Looks like one last bloom before I pitch it

Arif, It appears that the plant you asked Josh what to do with, is infected with Mosaic virus. I cannot be certain without long term observation, in person. For almost a year I have been discarding bulbs which exhibited symptoms which have that, or similar appearance.I have only a few hundred of what was a collection of over a thousand,including small seedlings.I cannot trade, buy or place outside any seedling,until I am sure I have eliminated the virus. In fact I have several tons of very fertile soil to discard where they were growing outside in the soil.Methylene bromide would probably kill the virus in the soil,but I live in the city and that would be too dangerous.Heat with pressure(pressure cooker,autoclave) would kill it,but the size of the required container would be prohibitative.
It is so very hard,sometimes to determine if the symptoms are insect damage or disease.
I have noticed that sucking insects, with long probes to suck with,can damage a flower while it is still encased ,at a very early stage,to look like some of the symptoms your flowers show. Good luck growing.
Del


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RE: Looks like one last bloom before I pitch it

Well this wound up being a far more 'heated' thread than I would have ever expected. At risk of adding more kindling to the fire:

Even a "single white lines" can be the result of a plant's being virused, Hans. HOWEVER, as there can be a multitude of other causes, no I would not run away screaming "the plague! the plague!" in the middle of the night because of a white line on a flower. I WOULD try to keep said plant under close observation.

Perhaps hippies are different -- though I would be surprised if they were -- but amongst other plants I am familiar with, especially orchids, a lack of discoloration in the foliage is irrelevant with regards to whether one can dismiss a plant as being virused. I have had virused orchids in which the flowers were the only area in which the problem was made manifest. (I had those plants lab tested and unfortunately virus was confirmed.) Now if the foliage also shows discoloration, that almost cinches the virus question without resorting to lab testing. Generally speaking, it is usually advisable to err on the side of caution if one has a large plant collection.

Arif, I suspect the plants you've shown -- both the first set of white splotched flowers and those plants with the discolored leaves may be virused. Lab testing could help.

Getting back to my plant which caused this 'ruckus' ... here are a couple pics of sections of the leaves currently (sorry the pics aren't better)

hippie virus 2011

hippie virus 2011


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RE: Looks like one last bloom before I pitch it

  • Posted by haweha 7/Germany/W (My Page) on
    Thu, Aug 11, 11 at 2:36

Even a "single white lines" can be the result of a plant's being virused

You are taking a random coincidence for a correlation.
"Virus ---> single white lines" is a positive claim, that you cannot provide proof and evidence for.


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RE: Looks like one last bloom before I pitch it

I will wait and see.
Arif


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RE: Looks like one last bloom before I pitch it

  • Posted by haweha 7/Germany/W (My Page) on
    Thu, Aug 11, 11 at 4:15

Arif,
ARE you not, already, SEEING?


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RE: Looks like one last bloom before I pitch it

A plant can show virus on the flowers alone just as they can show virus on the leaves alone, one without the other makes no difference.

A single white line can indicate virus, it's all dependent on the plant.


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RE: Looks like one last bloom before I pitch it

What I ment was a follow up to the end (till declared dead).
How long you think the bulb will last?.Will it regress slowly.or the family colapses suddenly departing one after another,Could it overcome the disease,develope an amunity or become a carier.
Let us wait and see.


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RE: Looks like one last bloom before I pitch it

What I ment was a follow up to the end (till declared dead).
How long you think the bulb will last?.Will it regress slowly.or the family colapses suddenly departing one after another,Could it overcome the disease,develope an amunity or become a carier.
Let us wait and see.


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RE: Looks like one last bloom before I pitch it

  • Posted by haweha 7/Germany/W (My Page) on
    Thu, Aug 11, 11 at 17:13

"A single white line can indicate virus"

"Und wenn der Hahn kraeht auf dem Mist,
dann aendert sich das Wetter oder bleibt wie's ist"

IOW: NOPE. A white line indicates exactly: NOTHING.


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Prognosis

  • Posted by haweha 7/Germany/W (My Page) on
    Thu, Aug 11, 11 at 18:01

Hello Arif;
I ASSUME that the conspicuous symptoms are due to infection from mosaic virus AND exposition to high temperatures; once you mentioned upto 46 deg Celsius.

From my few experiences with mosaic-ed Hippeastrums that I kept for further observation I gathered the IMPRESSION that the vitality is not reduced by a perceivable degree. This might be dependent on the cultivar though. And, I never observed that hippeastrums in the close neighborhood, in one case even after one season in the same box, became infected from the one mosaice-de specimen within. I assume that this had been due to the almost strict absence of insects (Aphids).
If once upon a day, my entire collection would turn out to be infected from mosaic virus, then I would start over by collecting seeds from the crosspollinations that I consider the most precious, and from my collection I would only keep the very-most precious specimens that presumably could never ever be "reproduced", and locate those in quarantine preferably indoors.
I would keep the Seedlings exclusively in balcony boxes for two seasons, THEN replant into the garden "dirt". I PRESUME that after 2 years any viral matter in the garden soil should have decomposed. Just a suggestion, serious though. But before doing anyting, wait what considerations others present.


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RE: Looks like one last bloom before I pitch it

Hans,

What proof do you have that single color breaks do not indicate Mosaic Virus?


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RE: Looks like one last bloom before I pitch it

  • Posted by haweha 7/Germany/W (My Page) on
    Fri, Aug 12, 11 at 11:36

First, a single white line is not identical with color break no matter how diligently you repeat to apply this term.

I am making a negative claim.
I did NOT claim "a white streak indicates that there is no Virus present"

You might have a hard time, to understand why my negative claim is a priori correct.

IF I accepted your positive claim, that a white line might be effectuated by Virus, THEN some other guy could feel entitled to come and claim: "A white line might be effectuated by tarsonemid mites" without proof and evidence for reason ---> effect.


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RE: Looks like one last bloom before I pitch it

Hippeastrum greatly vary in their ability to thrive and do well while having the mosaic virus. Some varieties do very well,even with heavy whitened/yellowed leaves.I know someone who has several plants of Pasadena,a vigorous double,which have had Mosaic three years. The bulbs became so small that they didn't bloom this past march.The bulbs appear to be slowly dying. The owner doesn't water and fertilize very much, if any. If watered and fertilized they might have bloomed.I do know that most varieties don't do as well with mosaic as without. I've had very few die due to mosaic.Perhaps three in the thousand I burned.One factor in that is that when I realized the problem I began pulling up the bulbs.
Del


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RE: Looks like one last bloom before I pitch it

If Markings on Pauls leaves are confirmatory of mosaic virus then every plant of mine is infected. NO sir I am not going to destroy all of them or even any one of them.

History of Hans favourite bulb housed in this pot.

From Lady of knight Hans

The seedling first bloomed on 31-3-2005

From Lady of knight Hans

Shifted to pot, bloom of 1-4-2007

From Lady of knight Hans

27-3-08

From Lady of knight Hans

18-3-09

From Lady of knight Hans

18-3-10

From Lady of knight Hans

30-3-2011

From Lady of knight Hans

The plant is obviously infected as per your standards; give me a logical reason, why I should destroy it.
Arif


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RE: Looks like one last bloom before I pitch it

  • Posted by haweha 7/Germany/W (My Page) on
    Sun, Aug 14, 11 at 4:27

Thank you for showing! I do not suggest you to do anything. I suggest you to only THEN largely destroy your collection, IF you want to get rid of the Virus. And, on this premise, I included the suggestion to put those specimens into Quarantine, that are such unique in their appearance that they presumably cannot be reproduced. Additionally save those specimens, that you consider UN-substitutable for further breeding.


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RE: Looks like one last bloom before I pitch it

"When the rooster crows on the dungheap, then the weather will change, or stay as it is" - :), Hans.


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RE: Looks like one last bloom before I pitch it

If your rooster is ambivalent,that is his problem. Hans is not. He is a kind,precise, exacting person,with a long experienced, good advice.He merely states what he would do,in the event that he had the mosaic infestation.If your rooster just doesn't care,then please realize, that those of us who try to grow disease, pest free plants,definately do care.
I can relate to Arifs wish to keep his virused plants.I am 68 years old and having to throw away many one of a kind prizes hurt me badly. I don't have thirtyfive or forty years to try again.If I had a way to isolate some of the virused plants,I would have,but I live on a 90X 90 foot lot. I also have close neighbors growing Hippeastrum and other Amaryllids,which could be affected.
Please, let us post helpful comments and try not to insult each other.Also, please remember that English is not the primary language of many of us,thus the impact of statements,words or colloquilisms can have widely varying impact.
Del


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RE: Looks like one last bloom before I pitch it

I simply looked up the German phrase which Hans quoted. I was curious and thought others might like to know as well.

On a happier note, my Charisma bloomed recently, here she is in bud, and looks like 2 dolphins nuzzling:
Photobucket


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RE: Looks like one last bloom before I pitch it

  • Posted by haweha 7/Germany/W (My Page) on
    Wed, Aug 17, 11 at 16:02

LOL Anna thank you for the Dolphins. I submit my respect to everyone that manages to RE-bloom Charisma [provided it IS Charisma and not "Temptation)] And thank you for the translation: It is correct.
I included the saying, in order to provide the "auditory" with another example of "no correlation between an alleged/possible reason (= the rooster crowing from his platform = the most elevated position he retrieved in order to provide, namely his message, with significance, BUT! The platform being soft, organic, stinky, biodegradable already indicating the questionability of the alleged significance LOL!) - and effect (= "behaviour of the wheather").
Thank you, Del, for your kind appreciation too. You see, Anna's translation was not meant as an insult.


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RE: Looks like one last bloom before I pitch it

I respect the logical mind of Hans and that is why I call him GURU (My Teacher).
Del is right, it reminds me of a story; an old lady takes her car to her garage for check-up, the old man gives her an OK report and she drives off happily. The young mechanic asks the boss, the car requires an overhaul and yet you toled her it is fine? The boss replied, young man I assure you the car as it is will outlast the lady.
Paul, what is the effect of this disease on an amaryllis bulb in a time frame?
Arif


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RE: Looks like one last bloom before I pitch it

Hans - here is the same Charisma, currently in bloom. I am sure it is Charisma - am I right? Only 2 flowers, but have lasted a long time, are large and perfect (to me anyway), and bloomed from a relatively small bulb (I was actually surprised to see a scape emerge):
Photobucket


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RE: Looks like one last bloom before I pitch it

Awaiting for answer.
A healthy bulb gets mosaic virus. Will it continue blooming year after year If so for how long? The bulb-lets also affected , will they grow and bloom? And the cycle continues.


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RE: Looks like one last bloom before I pitch it

  • Posted by haweha 7/Germany/W (My Page) on
    Tue, Aug 23, 11 at 6:15

This might depend, on the cultivar.
I had purchased, for my GrandMa, a potted bulb of a modern TET hybrid, with extremely flat shaped flower (like a dish, the tube almost absent), red with broad white midrib, that soon after producing leaves revealed, that it be infected from Mosaic Virus, and it would produce perfect flowers year for year. After 2 years the little "pup" that had developed in the first season, would produce its first bloom even. NEVER would any indication of "Mosaic" be revealed in the shape or in the coloration of the flowers. The bulb got only discarded years later, after general neglection by some other caregiver *sigh*


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RE: Looks like one last bloom before I pitch it

It may clear some fears;
On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 1:17 PM, Charles Barnhoorn (Hadeco) wrote:
Hello Arif,
Cucumber mosaic virus is not so common in Hipps. Leaves show large yellow concentrated rings and stripes. Also affects many other kinds of bulbs and other plants.
More common is Hippeastrum mosaic virus (symptoms: yellow streaking with alternating patterns of light and dark green) and Tomato Bronze Virus (circles, white marks and streaks and wavy erratic leaf shape)
All are transmitted by aphids, thrips etc mostly while in flower. Generally only transmitted by insects or mechanical damage. Causes some general weakening of the plant although this is usually only noticeable after a few seasons. Bulblets will also be affected.
Kind regards,
Charles
Thank you Charles,
Am I correct to understand that, an affected mosaic virus bulb will continue to bloom for some time and will also produce bulb lets which will have the disease but will mature to bloom. In short it would be like a genetically weak breed having short blooming life.
Arif
Arif,
Essentially, yes that is correct. Many growers around the world maintain stocks of virus infected plants because the effects are usually quite minimal. Our belief however is that it is better to have best quality and clean stocks and so we ensure that virus is not present.
Kind regards,

Charles


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