Good Lord - I agree with you. My grandfather used to raise tropical fish in a big way in his Astoria, Queens, NY apartment. One of his favorites were Mollies (they were just the plain black ones back then), & he never had any problems.

And in fact, when I was a child, he gave me a community tank with swordfish, platies, & mollies - & I had all those fish for several years with no problems.

Perhaps it has something to do with the manner in which they are raised for sale today. I have yet to see a Molly tank in ANY fish store - private or commercial - that wasn't full of sad-looking fish.

Thanks, Breezyb. I've been searching for answers on this and it seems like Mollies need salt to be happy. I'm just trying to find out if more salt will have a negative impact on the other fish.(guppies, platys, neons etc.)

Does anyone know a good site that explains where different species originate? (ie amazon, asia, africa)

Thanks,

-PF

This is a pretty good site. Not a whole lot of fish listed, but the most common anyway.

The only way I've kept mollies is by adding aquarium salt to water. I had read somewhere (long ago) that mollies can take quite a bit of salt in the water and that sometimes they've been used as starter fish in salt aquariums to get the filters going with good bacteria before expensive marine fish are added.

Sometimes what happens with mollies is that not all pet shops know about the requirement of salt in water for mollies... so by the time you're buying them, they're not in great shape. It helps if the timing is right and you're buying mollies that pretty much just arrive at the store...

I keep guppies in with the mollies. They can do with a little salt in the water, too. At least mine have (since they are breeding!)

I think it's also acclimatization - some breeders may use more or less salt... their fish acclimatize to certain conditions.. which are not duplicated at pet stores. Fish born in my tanks at home always seem to do better than those I buy in stores.

Here is a link that might be useful: Badman Tropical Fish site

I have three mollies in my brackish tank to pop out babies for the marbled gobies (there's some guppies too).

Guppies, platies, and neons should all be okay with some salt but I'm not sure they can take as much as the mollies.

Adrea

As far as the salt issue goes - platies, swordfish, & mollies are all brackish water species. Guppies can take "some" salt, but not as much as true brackish species, especially if you're dealing with the really fancy guppies & not the original, common variety.

Neons cannot take much salt at all. They originate in the Amazon & are true peat/acidic fish, like 99% of the small tetras. Cory cats also cannot take a lot of salt. Again, due to their native habitat.

Sometimes you can get away with adding some salt to a community tank with species from different native habitats, but platies, swordfish, mollies (as well as a few other livebearers) can take (& like) a far more salty environment then your other common community tank fish. Another thing to keep in mind is that a lot of live plants also can't take a lot of salt in their water. The Vals are one plant variety (off the top of my head) that can take more salt than others. However, any plant species of a truly freshwater tropical nature may have a very bad time adjusting to salt in the water.

Thanks guys.
I think I'm going to stick with (at least) a foundation of artificial plants with pehaps some live ones as well, so the salt issue should be okay for plants. I really want guppies and cardinal tetras too though...I hope they can tolerate a little salt...I mean just enough to keep the mollies healthy.

=PF

Mollies are deffinitly true Brackish fish, some populations of sailfin can even be found in full salt water but none are ever found in true fresh water. Guppies are hard water fish, and can take a good dose of salt Especialy the ones that are bred by breeders, Salt makes colors brighter but if your fish are born in soft water there chemistry may be such that they cannot make the transition. Platies and sword tails will be able to take light brackish as well as they are generaly found near the oceans aswell.

You do however need to be sure your fish are healthy, in some citys nearly all peocelidae (guppies, mollies) have fish tuberculosis these days and most will die of it they can also spread it to other fish (bettas apear to be suseptable) and to you.

I believe that cardinals or neons won't do well in salt water...Pequa - check that site I put up... you can at least see the more common fish and their water requirements... go from there as far as planning your tank.

There are sooo many really pretty platys and mollies out there now. They're not necessarily schooling fish like you may want from cardinals, but they definitely will give you lots of colour in the tank! Danios _may_ do okay (if you want schooling fish). And see if you can find some bumblebee gobies!

I second the gobies...

There are some rushes that will do just fine in brackish water not sure you want them in your tank though ;) Right off the top of my head three square rush (or american, triangle, scirpus olneyii or americanus this is the one I have in my tank), Scirpus maritimus (looks kind of cattailish but gets a typical rush flower instead of a catkin), and Scirpus Californicus (this on gets 8'ish tall and is a pain to thin though).

Adrea

Here's something I found in a google search.... (this is also a good site for info!)

[B] Brackish Plants (part 1 of unknown)
by sessoms/med.unc.edu (Eric S. Sessoms)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1993
Newsgroup: rec.aquaria
a close friend of mine without posting privs has been keeping brackish
tanks for close to two million years now and has a little to offer
on the subject of keeping plants in a brackish aquarium. here goes:

>-java moss does well, but it collects particles and needs to be rinsed
>out occasionally. it sits at the bottom and will adhere to rocks and
>driftwood if left alone for awhile. if there are fish in the tank that
>constantly 'pick' at stuff, it'll wind up in individual strands scattered
>all over your tank, but mostly stuck to your filter. it's really good
>for baby fish to hide in, however, if it stays in a clump.

>-java ferns do REALLY well. they attach to stuff too, but to get them to
>do this, it's best to rubberband them to something to get it started.

>-in my experience, wysteria does well, but it's not mentioned in the
>books. quite possibly it's just hardy enough to take almost anything.
>in brackish, it takes on a neat lime green color and grows pretty fast.

>-vallinesera (sp??)--the regular or corkscrew varieties--is reputed to do
>well, but i've never had luck with it under any conditions. i think my
>gravel was too course for it.

>-i've heard that the amazon sword plants do well, but i've never owned
>them myself.

Here is a link that might be useful: The Krib

Yeah, Sky. That site's been really helpful. I do love the way zebras school and move. And now they have the more colorful (supposedly glowing) zebras. I didn't realize there were so many different types of Platies. Also, lot's of different Mollies too.
The think about Gobies, is that they won't go near food that isn't alive.
I didn't want to center the tank around brackish water fish. I just think that a certain amount of aquarium salt makes for a healthy tank. I really appreciate all of your input on fish and plants. Also, the links that you guys have included are great. Thank you!
More research!

-PF

Hey Pequa - I'm not sure where you are on LI - but have you ever been to this store? Sometimes they have some really unsusual fish. I've gotten some really cool shrimp here, too.

Here is a link that might be useful: Pets warehouse

Yeah, Sky. I'm like 5-10 minutes down Sunrise Hwy. In Massapequa. We've actually gotten our parakeets there. But, the fish department...I dunno. It just doesn't seem like a priority. Like, it seems pretty dirty and stuff. I think I'll give it anoth chance based on your post.
I go to this store in Carle Place call Aquarium Adventures. This place is amazing. The quality and quantity of the fish there is amazing. You may pay a bit more for the fish (and they only have fish) but you can't go wrong with the selection and health of the fish. The folks that work there are actual knowlegable grownups, who chose this as a career (unlike, say..Petland). They have the most beautiful displays. In fact, that's where I'm going to get my 90 gallon tank (a few pay periods from now;-). I'll try to find a link to the sore in Carle Place.

-PF (andy)

ps. Where are you, Sky?

Here is a link that might be useful: Aquarium Adventures

Sand sifting gobies eat blood worms ;)

Unfortunately the only one I can think of off the top of my head is the two foot purple monster lol...

Adrea

ooookay, now I'm confused.

I'm in Queens...

The fish dept doesn't look impressive at the first glance, but really look at the fish and you'll find some real winners. I haven't been there since last year - I think they were doing major changes within the store (moving stuff around and expanding??) I got some really great little shrimp there. And some beautiful guppies, too.

There's another store that sometimes you will find some really great fish - it's on Rockaway called Petworks? Fish there are kinda inconsistent, but I've gotten some gorgeous long finned blue rams there! And for a good price, too.

So that store in Carle Place isn't that far a drive from Queens. It's like a mile from Roosevelt Field.
You're right about places that may not look so impressive having great fish. Kind of a diamond in the rough idea.
I've found that the online places like Drfostersandsmith.com have the best prices on peripherals like filters, heaters, artificial plants etc.

-PF

I was just pointing out that not all gobies need live food. G. Brussonetti (aka two foot purple monsters, violet goby, or south american dragon fish at petsmart) are sand sifters that eat frozen foods (they can't manage things bigger than newborn guppies when they're full grown).

I know there are others that are smaller gobies with the same habits just not sure which ones since I have exactly one brackish tank and can't put any small gobies in due to the marbled gobies that do eat live food.

Adrea

Hi,

I'm Bob, I'm usually on the Roses Forum (summer hobby), I was a bonafide aquarium nut before I was married in '97. Needless to say marriage put an end to that "non-sense" ;). I've just recently returned to my old passion of fishkeeping (winter hobby) because the winters are too long and cold around here. I'm cycling a 7 gal. glass bowfront w/ an Aquaclear 20 external, for small tetras or barbs or both.

Glad to be here, and I hope to learn more and help others in any way that I can.

One thing about Mollies is that they PREFER hard (400ppm+), alkaline (pH 7.5+) water around 80 degrees, with salt, for breeding.

In Milwaukee where I grew up, we had nothing but hard alkaline water, we always had more Mollies than we knew what to do with... infact most fish dealers in our area find them a nuisance because of their prolific breeding. They'll breed in a bare tank w/ the right water conditions.

To make things more complicated for you:

Egglayers (Neons, etc.), don't like hard, alkaline water and in most cases will tolerate only a small amount of salt.
Livebearers (Mollies, etc.), don't like soft, acidic water and like near brackish conditions for breeding.

It's easy to get the Mollies to breed when keeping them w/ other live bearers that need similar conditions, but when keeping them with species that are almost opposite in terms of water conditions, you'll drive yourself crazy trying to get them to breed.

Hope I've been helpful,
Bob

My mother's fish tank is full of mollies, black, white, dalmation, there's even some that have a yellow body and red fins, i think they're called mickey mouse (not sure) together with red sword fish (single and double fins) and guppies... and lots of FRY! She stopped adding fresh plants because too much problems with hook worms. So plastic plants for the fry to hide. And the only secret i can tell you is too add salt whenever you're changing the water. LOTS of rock salt. 90 Gallon tank = 3 cups rock salt

There are livebearers who need super soft wate there are live bearers infull salt, most full salt fish are egg layers, most brackish fish are egg layers, most freshwater fish are eggs layer, how a fish reproduces has more to do with its nieche than its water chemistry.

Maybe more...but not everything. There is evidence that many livebearers will spawn more readily in brackish water.

-PF

FWIW, I live in an area where the sailfins are native--extremely common.

It's coastal prairie, ~30 miles inland. The soil & water are alkaline & hard.

In the one actually pretty, sand-bottomed creek nearby, I've collected mollies, gambusias, cichlids & sunfish for my tub ponds. On the advice of the pond forum folks, I keep the tubs at ~1% salt or ~1 teaspoon/gallon. Not rigourous about this, but I do add salt to water changes. Sometimes after abundant rains, I'll notice a bit of fin fraying or ich, then add a handful of noniodized salt & see immediate improvement. Plants native to this area that have done fine in the tubs are parrotsfeather, hornwort, elodea (not sure which species), so these can tolerate conditions mollies thrive in.

Besides the natives, I added 3 domestic orange & black mottled females & one gorgeous pearl male.

I cannot keep the population down--they breed like flies & the colors are fantastic. I never have caught a native black, though they are suppossed to be documented. I have caught native *peppered* mollies--don't know the right term--they have tiny black specks all over.

So, yeah, I think at least minimal salt, plus hard alkaline water is ideal for them to thrive in. They are also found considerably inland here, in the cold spring waters of the San Marcos river.

Oh yeah, mollies also really like & need plant food. They do a lot of algae grazing.

maybe a selected-for strain like domestic blacks has too much inbreeding & genetic weakness--or at least the ones you've tried. Maybe adding a wild male & selecting the darkest offspring would gradually get you to the point of getting some pure blacks.

I've separated most males to controll breeding now, but I've gotten colors ranging from the native goldish/red to pure oranges, orange/black mottled (some almost purely black), peppered, pure pearls, & some handsome male oranges with black fins & lots of pearly iridescence on them. Maybe you can enjoy them in an outside tub customized for them.

The pond guys in cold climates overwinter their outside fish in their basements.

BlueGirl, that is soooo cool!
I had no idea how hardy Mollies are and how many varieties there are. Thanks so much for sharing that.
This had been such an informative thread.
-PF

You're quite welcome--just one of the few threads I knew anything about, LOL!.

But they really are lovely fish that don't require the space that koi or goldies do. They have tolerated outside water temps of high 40s, though I try to prevent it going below 50 degrees. I don't think those in a container would survive much below that over a prolonged period.

Making a greenhouse dome of sheet plastic over the stock tanks to keep in the day's warmth, plus occassionally running a well-protected large aquarium heater in the water over the pump for a night or two is adequate for our winters.

Sailfins are such cool mollies. I also love high fin platys!! Blue Girl, that is really interesting that you keep mollies in your pond instead of the usual that pondkeepers go for which are koi.

What kind of cichlids are native to your area?

You guys have inspired me to go out and get some mollies for my son's 20 gallon tank! When they get home...they'll be like WOW Papa!

-PF

Skygee, we have the "Rio Grande" or "TX cichlids" here (mid-coastal area). Also the parthenogenic, all female, Amazon mollies.

Cichlasoma cyanoguttata, but I think some of the atlases use another name too. They aren't the flashy beauties re. coloring, but they are very attractive. It's hard to appreciate their beauty from a photo, as the 'stars' all over them are sparkley. They can whiten or blacken the base pearly/greyish coloring to spots & bands depending on mood (courting, aggression) & have the usual facinating care of eggs & young. They are so dang intelligent, they literally gaze up into your face & watch your eyes when you look at them. And they are *pettable*, too.

I went with natives mixed with a few domestics because I'm a rank ignorant beginner ponder & too old & stupid to dig out & plumb the enormous size pond I'd need for just a few Koi, when I can have a gazillion little natives in a big stock tank.

When going out to catch some natives, I was stunned to net cichlids & looked up ID to double check. Turns out the Rio Grande cichy has moved up at least 3/4s of the way up the Gulf coast & inland as far as San Antonio, IIRC.

Oh, & re the mollies, was re-reading about them in various books & all stressed how very dependent they are on some salt, tolerating a wide range, & upon having plant food, too. Mine are always picking at algae.

Ironically, I've been wishing for a big aquarium & a place to put it so I could really admire the view of some of those flashy male sailfins.

Have fun :)

I love Texas Cichlids! But petable?????
BG, is there anyway you can post some pictures? Your posts are facinating!!!

-andy

Well, gee, Andy, now I'm blushing :p Again, it's just been one of the few threads posted I felt I knew anything helpful about. Been a long time since I had aquaria & I'm a very new ponder & using only the most simple form, so usually I just lurk & learn.

Such a tech-neanderthal--don't even have a digital camera. I look at specs & recommendations & the eyes glaze over, the brain disengages...Nor do I have any regular pics of my cichy-pups--gosh, hadn't thought about trying! Will let ya know if I do get some.

If you Google the name & click on the "images" tab, there are some pretty good photos.

Re. "petable"--Yes! My first male got so big so fast in a tub. Rescued him from a mud-puddle, about 2" then. They are very curious & investigate fingers in the water & I'd gently pet under his jaw. Touching seemed to be okay as long as it was a slow movement with no chasing involved.

When he took a mate & they laid eggs, she would bite like hell & he would also come flying up defensively if I got close. But once my hand was ~2' away, he'd ease off & I'd give him a quick tickle or a pet. He seemed to understand my total lack of menace & would just lazily flip around to check his mate, then would often hang around near the surface & let me touch him a bit.

I get the impression these wild-caught fish aren't real impressed with the commercial food they get--tough--they've been eating it & growing up to 8" or more, plus raising fry--like it or not. Just a guess as to why they seem willing to look about & investigate hands & fingers. They never seem thrilled about the pellets thrown in the water & like to lurk just under the surface, ready to investigate mobile objects.

Dunno, but have read lots of animal behavior articles & books that marvel at their complex behavior & expression of emotions (through the rapid color changes). The more recent ones flat out attribute their behavior to having considerable intelligence (but I think all non-humans get under-rated at that).

They can be aggressive with other fish--really aggressive if they lay eggs. I believe they would eat smaller fish. In the first tub I tried (~100 gal) the big male had regular run-ins with a sunfish of the same size. Neither injured the other but there was lots of threat-posturing & territory defense. I started noticing some ragged mollies, but believe the sunfish was most likely the cause. The mollies would race out of his way, but were less cautious of the chichlid.

I've since put the cichys & sunnies in a partially-filled pool we don't use, to save my mollies & littler guys. There is room for all & they do fine with some large goldies.

This looks like the typical small ones in my area. I netted very small ones ~1-2". Shows they're rather plain relative to the Africans:

www.tmm.utexas.edu/.../ ccyanogu/ccyanog6.jpg

This looks much like the particular fish in my area, viewed in water. Spangled with dark bands. Google's images search also turned up a range map--seems there are isolated populations as far up as your area from introductions:

www.tmm.utexas.edu/.../ ccyanogu/ccyanog1.jpg

These look like the colors my females change to--much brighter, a stark threat--if their eggs or young are approached:

www.tmm.utexas.edu/.../ ccyanogu/ccyanog4.jpg
www.tmm.utexas.edu/.../ ccyanogu/ccyanog3.jpg

Bluegirl, I'm sorry to tell you that none of the links worked for me. :-( I think it's the dot dot dot's in there. Can you please try it again. Your information has been so illuminating!

-andy

Hmm, well, they aren't in html--did you copy & paste them into the address location? They all came from the first page of a Google images search on "Rio Grande Cichlid"

I'll try pasting the actual Google page url. Previously, I was refering to pictures 1, 6, 7 & 8 on that page as examples.

If you do add natives to your pond or aquaria, cover it well for a couple of weeks. Caught natives have no concept of not being able to "flip out" of a tub back into their stream. They are easily spooked until used to the new location & jump out at any disturbance.

Here is a link that might be useful: Google images of Rio Grande cichlids

Amazing!
I always think of tropicals coming from exotic locations!

Thanks for re-posting this BG!

-andy

Finally got time to check out the link! Yeah - really cool to have just "local" fish to populate your pond! Thanks Blue Girl!

I love Texas Cichlids. I used to keep them with Jack Dempsey's and Oscars. I can't believe in those pictures, that folks catch them on a hook. It's just so weird seeing them in that context, ya know?

LOL! YES! The more pets I have...the less i want to hurt anything sentient.

Though I'm guilty of having done lots of fishing as a kid, now the thought of someone ripping a hook into my wittle cichy-poo's mouth makes me gag.

I don't know if most ponders would appreciate natives as much as aquariests(sp?) because viewed from above, even pretty natives are fairly bland greyish/olive looking. It's hard to see their lovely colors unless you have some shallows for them to play in or watch long enough to see courting. I just happen to enjoy wading around in creeks & catching little minnows & such & watching their behavior close-up.

There are some really spectacular darters in NA according to the field guides, but they seem to mostly be confined to cold mountain streams--not at all like our nasty bayous...

The darters that I've seen at a fish hatchery are kind of drab and don't do much. In fact, they look down right scared all the time. I've kept Pumpkinseeds that are really beautiful...but a little aggressive. I have 3 in my pond along with (2) 10" Koi and a bunch of pond comets amd big head shiners. They all seem to get on well with the turtles, tadpoles and froggies.

-andy

When we first moved to VA, the house/property we bought was up in the mountains 2 miles from the WV border & had a brisk shallow stream running thru it.

When we first looked at the house, I was of course drawn to a small aquarium in one corner which contained some lovely fish that I couldn't readily identify. They were small, streamlined, & striped with gold, red, & some black. The owners said that they were simply fish that they had netted out of the stream.

Although I never netted any myself to keep, I did see them in the stream from time to time & assume they were/are some variety of dace. They were very pretty fish.

We have since moved to another more central part of VA & also have a stream thru the property. While I do see small fish in it once in awhile, they are very small & plain gold or silver. I suspect they are either young of something larger upstream or some type of freshwater minnow. Unfortunately this stream almost disappears in the summer, so whatever they are, they're not here year-round unless we have a lot of rain.

I have a 55 gallon tank with Mollies. One of them, a male, has recently developed a dark spot on his side. It doesn't seem to have affected him but today I noticed that the spot has a small area that looksmetallic; lihe silver metal. Anyone have any idea what this may be.

I haven't seen that exactly, but on my 24 carot gold mollies, I've noticed black coming through their scales when the bend to 'turn the corner'. I think it may just be their pigment coming through. You didn't mention what kind of Molly that you're talking about, but I think that the newer, different varieties of Mollys may still have jet black in their genes. I'm just kind of spit-balling here. Anyone else have a thought?

-andy

Thanks for your input. The Molly is gold. But I am not certain that this is the name. His color is actually carrot orange; but that's my definition not fact.

No expert either, but they definitely change coloring as they mature. A pale or slightly orangish fry may bloom into an orange/black speckled adult. It's fun to watch what colors you're going to come out with when you start with mixed mollies.
In wild sailfins, evidently most have some sort of *melanism*(not sure of name) gene that is sometimes expressed as a black "peppering" on the fish--or much more rarely--a pure black.
I suppose domestic fish can still have the gene(s) & occassionally express it to some degree, even if it's just a speckle or two. Just a guess.

If some in the wild were introduced to breeding lines, I bet we'd all have healthier Mollies!

-andy

I've sure had fun doing just that.

Of course, the reverse--introducing domestics into native populations is a big nono.

But evidently, even authorities disagree on what populations are truly introduced. I've always heard the sailfin mollies of the beautiful San Marcos river (Rio Innocencia--love that name) were introduced as aquaria fish, & that the now heavy thickets of elodea there were too. The river waters, even though spring-fed, remain astonishingly clear far past the springs perhaps because of that. Dunno, but though it's a tiny short river its crystylline beauty makes it probably the most beloved in the state. The SM feeds into the Guadalupe, which runs down past my area. So I don't know if the common sailfins of our local area are introduced or not.
I've certainly not seen obvious color-breeds like oranges & golds. But then, such bright colored fish would not likely survive long, either.

The native males might bore some folks to death, but they do show some very pretty coloring: reddish bellies, golden rows of dots, & their sails are dotted & edged with an almost flourescent bluish. Their tails also show the iridescence. They are handsome guys when all tricked out & courting.

The RioG. cichlid is labled as "introduced" here, also, by SOME authorities.
It's rather hard to tell. It's also unfair to universally blame aquarium fanciers, too. Local bait shops sell live goldfish & most fishers dump left-over bait fish into whatever body of water they are fishing.

Re. the brilliant red natives, yeah! I think they were DACES not darters. I recall looking at the atlases & marveling that they were certainly as fine a beauties as cardinal tetras.

Great post, BlueGill.
I took the plunge last night and ordered a 75 gallon setup! So...I'll document my Molly experience from the get-go. As an aside, my brother in law purchased 2 Sailfin Mollies last night to begin the cycle process on his new 180 gallon salt/reef/fish tank. If the mollies survive, I get to keep them!

-andy