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very hard water :-(
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Posted by daylilyfan 5/6_OH (My Page) on Wed, Nov 2, 05 at 18:36
| There must be a reason I am not supposed to get an aquarium! I keep running into these "issues"... but I am learning....
When we checked my unsoftened water - the hardness was so hard, it was way off the chart. I called the company I have rented my softener from to see if they might do a more complete (accurate?) test for me. Yes, they would, if they know exactly what I want tested for. They suggested I call the fish store in the bigger city - even siting it by name.... I called. They asked what part of which county I lived in -- and told me that the water was so hard where I am that my only choice are buying water to use, or getting a reverse osmosis filter. He said he has some people who live very close to me in his club. They use 75% RO water, 25% softened well water. OR - he said I can set up for fish that like hard water - but it's pretty hard, and I would be a bit limited.
Now, we buy water to make ice cubes, and to use in the coffee maker. I filter the softened water through a Brita for drinking. The reason we use store bought water for ice is that our water, when frozen, has a layer of minerals/lime(?) on top that is like a layer of snow. Very annoying in your glass! I have checked into the RO filters some in the past. It would not be a really bad thing to have to get one, except it will add to the over all cost of getting started in this hobby - ARGH! -- and, since I am a single woman without a lot of plumbing skill, I will also have to hire a plumber to install it... adding even more cost.
If any of you have these systems, would you recommend that I go to
a) the plumber I trust to buy one (no idea if he even knows about them)
b) a local home store or Sears
c) the fish store in the larger city
d) drfostersmith online type store
e) see if my water softener company has them
f) some other option I don't know about
Thanks for any info....
Jules |
Follow-Up Postings:
RE: very hard water :-(
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| Go to about.com and search reverse osmosis, not just for your fish, but yourself. Sounds like your water comes out in chunks. Also, maybe consumer reports to find a quality unit. Just some considerations to investigate - Besides the initial cost, you need to replace membrane filters, alot of water is used to produce a little so your well pump will run more often and the extra electric is a factor. The more water you want to produce daily the more expensive the unit will be. Some RO only produce 10 gallons a day. Drs. Foster Smith has a good artical on how to set up a system for collecting water for aquariums. I have heard some people say that their local fish stores sell RO/DI water by the gallon and it isn;t that expensive. Except for gas and the major PITA it could be to transport it. Another possibility is water delivery, like culligan. Adding peatmoss to the water will breakdown the water somewhat, but it will give the water a tea color look. Not to pleasing to the eye but "blackwater" fish love it. If you do use RO/DI water you will need to add back in some nutrients, I guess adding a mixture of well water will help. Ironically, I have been coresponding with "Morton Salt", about their water softening products. I had a recent discovery that the "system saver" pellets they sell is only 95% Sodium Chloride. Around the same time I started using this product is when I got an algae bloom and notice my tap water had phosphates in it. They told me that .01% is a detergent, most detergents have phosphates, coinsidence? I think not. |
RE: very hard water :-(
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| Hard water in which hardness, general hardness or carbonate hardness ? |
RE: very hard water :-(
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| i had extremely hard water where i used to rent, not sure which exactly since i only had one test. it wasn't even measurable by that. as an example, our hot water heater was corroded through and leaking before the warranty on it expired. i could even smell a "saltiness" when i ran the tap- this was in a town also. peat did nothing for it...fyi. i tried everything except r.o. the tap water purifier i purchased ran too slow and was freezing cold by the time it came out into my rubbermaid container. that was the kind with the color changing beads. yet, my angels still bred. amazing! |
RE: very hard water :-(
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| Well, it was GH she tested. She said my water was "off her chart" I think she calculated it to 447 and that translated to 30 if that makes any sense? I am at work, notes are at home. She said it seemed so bad to her she did not bother to test the carbonate hardness. Like I said when I make ice with the **softened** water there is a layer of minerals on top you can actually blow off like snow. It's at least 1/16" thick. Yes, I think there are rocks in it! |
RE: very hard water :-(
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| If your freinds test result was 447ppm (ppm=parts per million) Then the dGH (d= degrees) is 25 dGH. Get an "Aquarium Pharmaceuticals" GH & KH test kit about $5 on-line or up to $10 at a pet store. I like this test better because it is simple. You just add one drop of reagent (reagent is the testing chemical) to the test tube of the water sample. This test has no color charts to compare, so there isn't that "in-between color", and you just guess which one it is most like. 1 drop = 1dGH. The color of the reagent is green. The first 1-2 drops should turn the water orange. You add 1 drop at a time, counting each one, until the water turns back to green. The total number of drops used to do this is the dGH. If you rather use ppm then multiply the number of drops by 17.9. The KH test is the same with different colors. Peat moss will not lower KH much but will lower GH. GH and KH are commonly confused (Took me a while) GH or General Hardness testing for magnessium and calcium ( the calcium may be the white crap on the ice cubes). KH or Carbonate Hardness, it tests for carbonates and bicarbonates. Alot of deep wells are located in voids in limestone and can be high in carbonates (carbonates or lime could also be the white crap on the cubes). KH will effect you pH, usually buffer up to the base or alkaline side. One thing to be careful of is also in deep wells there is a lack of oxygen, particularly in wintertime when the ground freeze's and there is a few feet of snow. This makes the carbonate turn into carbonic acid or CO2. This can trick you at first because the water will come out of the tap as very acidic. Then when the water aerates the CO2 is released and now the water has a "normal" amount of oxygen. This will give you the "true" pH and KH of the water. If your GH is only 447ppm GH or 25 dGH Rift Lake Cichlids would be a good choice as well as Brackish water fish. The GH is pretty high but not high enough you cant have some "sturdy" community fish. Just slowly introduce them to the Hard water. You will need to know the GH of the fish stores water. Put the fish in a QT tank with a mixture of well and RO or even softened water to come slightly higher. Gradually increse with PWC's (partial water changes) until the QT is the same as the aquarium. One thing I am considering is using Potassium Chloride instead of Sodium Chloride. Better for the plants (free ferts.) and my family and fish. The rusting of fairy's water heater could have been caused by the trapped CO2/ acidic water or alot of iron that rusted. Since she said peat didn't affect pH I would wager it was the trapped CO2/carbonic acid. One thing I have noticed is cycling an aquarium with a high KH is more difficult then "average". I have a possible reason for this but thats enough for now. |
RE: very hard water :-(/ quickly add
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| You are not limited to types of fish you can have because of your tap water. It can be altered safely. It is just a matter of willingness to do what is necessary to maintain. |
RE: very hard water :-(
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| Hard in general hardness is not as bad as it sound, carbonate hardness is the one that matters more. Carbonates form the buffering capability of the water and the ones that maintain the pH of the water. Hardness parameters can be altered at will by several means: dilution with destilled or RO unit water, ion excange resins, destillation, addition of an acidifier or alkalinizer are the most common. Each has it´s pros and cons. My best advice is : DO NOT alter the parameters unless you really need to. Most fish tolerate a wide range of PH and Hardness parameters, this means that you can keep most fish with regular tap water, only when you want to keep or breed fish that need very specific water parameters then you need to alter the water quality parameters. It is unwise to alter the parameters when you don´t know what you´re doing, you can do more damage than good. |
RE: very hard water :-(
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OK ---
As soon as I can go to the aquarium store in the city, I will get a real test kit of my own. Until then, I can go to the place that I rent my softener from and have them test my water. What exactly do I want to test? Freshly drawn hard water, or letting it sit? or are you saying to aireate (sp?) it somehow? Should I also have them test my soft water ? OR - should I test freshly drawn and water that has sat - both hard and soft? If I have been paying attention, I think I need to find the KH, GH, and PH. Is carbonate hardness something in addition to those 3? I went to a Petsmart today in the smaller town I live in. Pitiful. It had been 30 years or more since I had a fish tank. That was the last time I saw white fuzzy spots on fish until today - and it was in almost every tank. Fish were just hanging in the tanks not swimming. So sad. I did see Sherpa tetras (sp?) there, which someone mentioned somewhere on one of the sights as good for "birth control" when you have platys and they were pretty! I went in there looking for some of the hard water fish mentioned - like platys and the cichlids - they are pretty too... so I have renewed hope of working with what I have! It's hard to visualize what they look like in person from the pictures in books and on the web - so I've been going to all the places I can that have fish to see what they actually look like. I am also finding out why you never buy in places like that. I am also noticing how the fish look with different gravel colors/backgrounds etc. I am still thinking the RO unit may be a good thing for us to get for our drinking water/ice/coffee. SO as soon as I figure out what exactly I need to test for, I will have the water company do a test - then I'll take that info with me when I go to the big city fish store. I'll get a kit, and some books. Look at tanks again for size... Woeisme - thanks for that link - I did get notification this morning! |
RE: very hard water :-(
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| Hi DLF, I can't help you too much with your water testing but I can tell you about serpae tetras if you want. (I think that's what you saw) They're a very hardy fish in my tank. They get fairly big for a tetra and are fast swimmers and can bother other fish. They don't eat smaller tetras but they might nip fins on bettas and things. Mine are in a school of 6 and don't bother the other fish. I got some red enhancing food and they turned really red! See my recent thread about the hybrid (which wasn't), pics of mine are there. I have never lost one in 6 months of having them. |
RE: very hard water :-(
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| interesting theory on the water heater issue, woeisme. hmmmm, i never would have guessed other than lime eating through everything. then again, i am not a plumber! what does it mean if my water was very alkaline once it came out of the tap? daylily fan, not meaning to take over your post....just curious! |
RE: very hard water :-(
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| I think that the more we reply the more confusing the things are getting. OK, so you can understand better: General Hardness ( DH or GH ): is the measure of the total content of dissolved salts in the water regardless of their nature ( it includes carbonate hardness ). Carbonate Hardness ( KH ): is the measure of all carbonate salts dissolved in the water. PH: is the degree of alkalinity or acidity of the water. That water softner you´re mentioning works how ? Most household water softners work with ion exchange resins, if you have to flush the system with salted water then it´s one of those. The problem with ion exchange resin is this, yes they do soften the water by binding most ions ( magnesium, calcium, copper, etc ) reducing the general hardness but in exchange they susbtitute those removed ions with sodium carbide, this causes the carbonate hardness to skyrocket turning it harder and more alkaline due to the increase in the ammount of carbonates, in order to contrarest the effect you need another resin to remove the sodium carbide. Most water "softeners" available work on that principle even aquarium ones ( water softener pillows, etc. ). That´s the reason why I say that you shouldn´t "play" with the parameters unless you really need to do so, it´s not as easy as it seems. Most fish will live and thrive in regular tap water. RO units are a good source of quality water but most household RO units are not suited for aquarium use, the quality of water they provide is not as good as you might think, only aquarium RO units are good for aquarium use because those have a much slower flow and a different ( more tight ) membrane, and even so, you still have to reconstitute the water they provide because it´s not good for aquarium use as main source of water, water from an RO unit directly as it comes from it is only good for replenishing evaporated water from the tank, because it neither adds or substracts anything from the tank water itself, if you´re going to do a partial water change using RO water you will still have to reconstitute it to match the water parameters in the tank, if you don´t reconstitute it the carbonate hardness and the PH drops suddenly, the osmotic pressure increases dramatically and you could kill the fish. Boiling the water and letting it sit for a couple of days is a good way to lower the carbonate hardness, but it doesn´t lower it by much. Aereation doesn´t alter the carbonate hardness. Carbonate hardness and KH are the same thing measured in different systems. KH is measured in degrees, carbonate hardness is measured in parts per million. 1°KH = 17.9 PPM CaCo3. |
RE: very hard water :-(
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| I hope this is not off topic, does anyone know if water from a dehumidifier would be good to put in a fish tank? It should be pretty much distilled I would think... |
RE: very hard water :-(
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| I would stay away from trying to change your tapwater with softener's. It becomes too much work in the long run. Try some inexpensive fish you like and see how they do. Like Raul says most are very adaptable. Acclimate them slowely. |
RE: very hard water :-(
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| I dont have much time right now, but I read your post, so I am going to tell you something. It is okay to use the tap water and I highly recommend you to use Neutral Regulator (green bottle - powder) and Discus Buffer (blue bottle - powder) together to soften (bring down the ph level) water in your tank. The reason for your very hard water is the fault of your city water. Some cities enjoy putting too much minimals in the water, thus making it hard. The city that I live does that too. So, the treatments that I enlisted is best recommended to bring down the PH level to 7.0 or around there. You can add them directly to the tank as followed on the label each day until the PH level is where you want it to be. When I add water to my tank, I use one scoop of each into the gallon jug, shake it up, and then pour it into the tank. It works wonderful! |
RE: very hard water :-(
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| Sorry Thunderxrage. my very hard water has nothing to do with a city putting minerals in. The nearest city is 20 miles away. The reason my water is hard is because that's what comes out of my well. I've checked into all of this and am going to get the RO system. I need to get some other plumbing done, so am saving up for about $500 worth. After all that gets done, and the RO system is in... then I'll start saving for a tank. After that, I will probably use a combination of RO and a little well water, or just bring water from my work (city) for the tank to start, then use the RO for my water changes. Not exactly sure, but I am a ways off ....... Jules |
RE: very hard water :-(
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| Hard water is water that has high levels of dissolved minerals particularly calcium. The simple solution to hard water is water softener. Maybe it could help. Mike |
Here is a link that might be useful: Water softener
RE: very hard water :-(
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yea the softner is only for bathing and washing cloth. For drinking water you need a ro unit. which could also feed your fridge. I bought my ro for around $300 from a company in california called APS water. They are very helpful, the also had very good technical knowledge and fish experince also.
http://www.aspwater.com/shopaff.asp?affid=15 |
RE: very hard water :-(
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| Boy, this is an old thread!! Mike, thanks, but I already have a water softener. That water was tested as not good for the fish either.... it has been so many months now, I don't recall what the reason was, but I think I posted it in one of the above posts. I am still planning on an RO unit. The unit, plus a Plumber to install it... and fix a couple other issues I have with faucets will be a bit costly, and I hope to get them done this spring. As far as a tank -- I don't know yet. A neighbor is trying one now without much success with the well water. They have had tanks before in other places before moving here, so have experience. I think they are trying to use the water as is, and get "hard water" fish. I have not had time to talk to them about it very much since she mentioned it at the holidays. An RO unit will still solve my issues with double filtering water through a Brita and still having layers of lime on it for ice - or buying all the water to make ice -- and will be able to use it in coffee maker, where we use bottled water now. Thanks again for the further advice.... but I think my water issues will probably just make this too much of a deal to spend a lot of money on a tank like what I really wanted to do --- only to find it is way to hard to keep the fish alive and the water balanced. I was hoping for a 75 or 90 gallon, possibly even two tanks... probably planted ones. So not an inexpensive thing to be experimenting on. |
RE: very hard water :-(
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| Many fish can handle (even prefer) hard water. Woeisme mentioned African Rift lake cichlids. There are MANY species of these colorful fish available. Central American cichlids are well-adapted to hard water, as well. I've kept and bred a number of killifish species in Phoenix well water (verrrry hard), and I know a man here who breeds discus and angelfish in this water. Some species are quite sensitive to water chemistry, and others just don't seem to care. Then again, some can succeed with certain fish in certain situations where others in the same area fail. There are some native American fish that are very nice aquarium subjects, which also tolerate hard water very well. If you observe local laws carefully, you can collect your own, or you can try one of the online vendors: http://www.jonahsaquarium.com/ http://www.aquaculturestore.com/ |
RE: very hard water :-(
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| I know this started several years ago but the one option I did not see mentioned was mixing the well water with collected rain water. I have a Rubbermaid horse trough at the side of my 60 year old house to collect the rain run-off to water my orchids with. I keep fancy guppies in it for mosquito control. They seem to be doing ok in the very soft water. My tap water is great for most fish but too hard for my orchids. It does leave light calcium deposits on the clay flowerpots and in the tea pot. |
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