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alocasia bulbils

Posted by grabmebymyhandle none (My Page) on
Tue, Oct 23, 12 at 2:17

I notice that when i repot my alocasias, i find lots of bulbils growing on short underground stolens. My observation is that these rarely ever grow until severed from the mother plant, The last time i repotted my A. poly you could clearly see there was 3 sets of bulbils that where not growing, and one round of smaller bright ones that were yet to fully develop. it had been 3 years of growth with out repoting, the oldest bulbils were closest to the mother and very dark, almost black, several had detached from the mother, via rot, and were lighter and larger and growing. 2nd set of bulbils was farther away and pretty dark the 3 set was 6 inches from the mother bulbs and quite light. All were just as viable as the next, the newest ones were not developed and died mostly.

It seems like an odd strategy to me, I often wonder why do they do that, 3 yrs is a long time for a dime sized bulb to just sit there why not just go ahead and grow? I also wonder do all alocasias do that, and do any other aroids do that besides alocasias?

Just bored and thinking off all the bulbils i just found in my frydek, it was unbelievable.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: alocasia bulbils

alot of them will not grow simply b/c they don't have to. they get there energy from the mother bulb through the stolen and don't need leaves to produce there food. once severed they will start themselves and grow leaves to produce there own food and continue the cycle. colocasia on the other hand will grow with only a half root in the ground from a stolen.


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RE: alocasia bulbils

I actually had been thinking what a wonderful storage device these were, i couldnt really take a pic but the stolens were very short, and the bulbils just packed in. I bet in an emergency the mother could easily tap those non growing bulbils and cannabalize them. fun.


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RE: alocasia bulbils

my alocasia polly was doing very good for 3 years, flowering every year, but polypodium fern seeded into it and i let it grow into a fernery. but now it's too dense and i decided to separate them. i have 3 large tubers (2 dormant, 1 has a leaf, but also not growing yet). they were planted vertically next to each other - with 2 leaves each making one pot. i want to plant the tubers horizontally to produce many sprouts. should i leave top half above ground?
i also found lots of bulbils in the pot. most are 1/4 " , some 1/2 ". i would like to pot them up and see how many will sprout. there are also 2 little bulbils that already produced a small tuber(corm?) and have been growing 1 leaf. the little tubers were underground and 1 still has a bulbil attached at the bottom. so i will plant them also underground. but what about the bulbils? how deep and how far apart ? i can't find any info on this and also on how long it will take for them to develop into larger plants. any advice?


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RE: alocasia bulbils

should be fine to bury all of it just not too deep...

any bulbs that have leaves will generally take less time to take hold and get going than the inactive bulbils... some alocasia can be painfully slow to emerge and start growing...mine still havent broken ground, some havent even attempted to wake up...

plant em an inch or so down in loose well draining mix, they can rot out if kept too wet but too dry and they never wake up...

i put em in one big pot so they stay evenly moist, and save space it will take sometime before they need much room


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RE: alocasia bulbils

oh, thank you for answering so fast. naturally i dug them up and then was in quandary what to do? dah!
was afraid that it's not good for such tiny bulbils to dry up, so googled until the pain in the neck and found on british forum that bottom heat helps to wake up tubers in general, for all aroids. so basically interim i set up a propagator: in an egg carton put moistened perlite, stuck the bulbils half way in, lid on top and on heater pad, mid-setting. they said bottom heat at 80F will be good.
can i keep them like this until there's some kind of life showing? and then plant them deeper like you said?
do you have any idea how long it takes for a leaf to show?


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RE: alocasia bulbils

The mother bulb actually produces a hormone that suppresses growth in the bulbils. Once separated from the mother plant, the bulbils will grow. Sort of like an insurance policy: should anything happen to the mother plant, there are plenty more to take her place.
The same thing happens in the apical meristems of most vascular plants; the apex suppresses the axillary buds, until they are the appropriate distance for branching.


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RE: alocasia bulbils

sounds good to me petruska, not too wet tho...

they should be fine there for some time and then transplant, hopefully in ground they will astonish you!

as for when...lol...a GUESS would be 4-6 weeks if all conditions are perfect... sooner depending on season?
they seem to know what time of year it is even if not exposed to the weather

thanks leafhead, i had supposed as much about the hormones, good analogy considering aroid bulbs are compressed stems, i guess the sceince there is very similar.
Fun!


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RE: alocasia bulbils

yes there are other aroids that grow tons of small offshoots/bulbs that will grow! The amorphophallus, sauromatum, and arisaemas genera come to mind! Have fun with lots of new plants.

Z


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RE: alocasia bulbils

i would be thrilled with just a few more plants - got about 2 dozen bulbils. they have all plumped up so far. i was afraid of dampening them first, now i actually put some more moistened perlite to cover the tops. i also finally planted the big tubers from mother plant and it's all sitting on the heating pad. the temp of the plastic lids is about 90F. i read that's ok. 80-90F range is good.
i suppose the young plants will be quite small for several years and best planted together and bagged. i grew 2 cyclamens from seed - they were bagged for 2 years if i remember correctly. so would i be right to think that it's best to keep young plants growing continuously thru winter to form the tuber? i know that small tubers/corms are more prone to drying up/dying. out of 12 bagged cyclaments only 2 survived (and i never let them go into dormancy). any idea what would be bulbil rate of sprouting and then surviving a year?
my tubers made 2 sprouts by themselves: 1 and 2 year old. they are quite small, increase about an inch or 2 in size each year. so for adult size it would be many years?


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RE: alocasia bulbils

here's a pic of my amazonica polly tubers before planting.
the front 2 small tubers are 2y and 1y babies. the mature leaves are about 10", the 2 year leaf is about 5-6", the 1y is may be 2-3". both babies had only 1 leaf growing.
grab, how are your bulbils doing? they are much larger then mine of course, being frydek. have you ever planted bulbils before, or is it the 1st time?
anybody else done it?


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RE: alocasia bulbils

They do love the heat, and make sure they are warm (room temp) for at least 24 hours before planting.
You're on the right track keeping the little offshoots going.... they'll continue growing all winter and summer, until fall.


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RE: alocasia bulbils

grab do yours show any sign of life yet?
i got the 1st year polly bulbil sprout. they were sitting doing nothing so i browsed again in british forum and found a great post about 'mayan mask' boiling : heating them hi and wet. so finally after 3 weeks on low setting i increased the temp to medium (96Fin cups, the mat itself is at 114F!), rewatered well. and today, on 22(that's 2 weeks at 96F) noticed the root pocking out 1/2" ! so i dug it up to check , snap a pic and repot. also decided to repot all egg carton ones (2year large ones) into indiv 1.5" cups - they seem to retain moisture better. and now am really hopeful for a whole batch!
notice that the roots are growing from the top of the bulbil! and growing tip is showing pink. couldn't take a better pic to see.


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RE: alocasia bulbils

well, i have 3 sprouts so far: 2 1inch pink 'leaf sheaths' and a 3rd one just picking out. they are all in moist perlite, bagged on a heat-mat in good bright light. am waiting for the first leaf to develop to transplant and put into 'shoe box' propagator.
grab, what's happening with yours?


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RE: alocasia bulbils

well, nobody's answering... but I just wanted to post in case smbody will want to sprout bulbils.
my planted big mama tubers leafed out , one produced 2 flowers. the 2nd yr bulbil produced largest leaf yet: 8", 1yr tuber have rotted, but I trimmed it and it rooted and produced 3" leaf .
the bulbils are producing leaves: so far I have 5 leafed out from 3" to 4" and 7 more showing sprouts and 3 more showing roots. and 10 more left unsprouted - mostly smallest ones.
I am keeping all sprouts still bagged and on a heating pad.


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RE: alocasia bulbils

Sorry didn't notice any posts in my thread...

I actually still have dormant mask type alocasia, they are so stubborn. There's not much more I can do for em, it's 80 out right now 100 in the greenhouse... WAKE UP! : D I've nearly lost my variegated poly, it had problem after problem this winter, I had such high hopes but should have waited to now to divide it, I jumped the gun... Sigh lesson learned, and it is still kickin! Not growing leaves yet but white roots are hanging out of his pot, I think I'll go throw that guy in the grond now

I actually recently acquired A. Ivory Coast,a nice new mask hybrid,
It was insane! 9 large main tubers 4 smallers one, and over 50 fingernail size bulbils...looks like I'm goin in th Ivory Coast business


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RE: alocasia bulbils

well, finally...
just tell me this: is this the first time you are sprouting bulbils or you've done this before?
there's absolutely big-ZERO info on the subject.
honestly, I only did it, 'cause I saw your post. and then I googled the heck out of my shoulder until I found
"this"post in british forum.
so I put it on a heating mat and when it did not sprout, kept pouring more hot water on it! and jacked up the heat too...
it looks like it takes lots of root heat+very moist perlite to get it going!
but now that you have 100F in the greenhouse it SHOULD sprout. give it some HOT water, really!


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RE: alocasia bulbils

No need to snippy, this forums not the most important thing in my life by a long shot, sorry I left u hanging but if it was important to you an email would have gotten my attention...

This is not the first time I've tryied forcing aroid bulbs, or bulbils, but I don't usually attempt it in the dead of winter, the cold greenhouse held things back, and I just couldn't afford to turn the thermostat up!

I usually do it from say April through September... And have much better luck, many aroids may their own agenda and asking them to change that can really make them pout, sometimes to death. Amorphs are notorious for it

I've even noticed that bulbs left in dry storage until the end of may, will often catch up to ones I force in winter, within about a months time. So unless a bigger plant is actually needed it may be a bit of a waste, I do it for early sales, and will continue to do it...

On the other hand colocasia take it much better in my opinion, some kinds just pop right up, also the jewel and mask types are the slowest I've fooled with the bigger more rank alocasia seem to handle forcing well enough
Medium sized bulbs seem best suited for it, tiny one take forever to establish even tho they can break soil quickly and the giant bulbs just take forever to wake up, compared to walnut sized bulbs...
Also if the bulbs are dormant but still have active roots they might wake up sooner, even the jewels and masks


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RE: alocasia bulbils

no problem for me. as i mentioned i got the info in british forum, just searching thru. since it was your post i figured you wanted to talk about the subject. but if not - no sweat.
there seems little interest in the subject here, i'll proly post about my experiments later in my own post may be in house plants.


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RE: alocasia bulbils

I certainly would like to talk about it, your welcome to continue posting, I've just had a rash lately...too many people online being rude to me, either for no reason or becuase i try to help, it gets old, and discouraging! Maybe I misread ya sorry if I did!

It really seems there's just not too much interest in aroids at all here on GW, more than most sites tho... :d

Back on topic I meant to say that I'm just a but leary of that technique u found, it looks it worked for him, I really don't want to risk any of the plants that still remain dormant so I'm too chicken to try it, maybe next year.

I can attest that they mind it hot, my greenhouse has gotten over 115 and everybody seemed just happy as can be so I'm sure they would be just fine.


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RE: alocasia bulbils

that post from Dave is good and he knows what he is doing but you also have to realize the temps in the UK don't get close to what we have here.. in mid july it can be 100F and 80% hum. for weeks at a time..if they were to have 2 days at 90F they would be over joyed. since they never get the heat they resort to other methods. I don't think its needed here in the midwest as long as you have some patience


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RE: alocasia bulbils

it was all winter fun diversion for me, waking them up. I am indoor gardener with a small balcony. this winter I was away for too long, so the temps near windows were dropping to may be 58-60F and it dropped most of it's leaves. i had to replant it anyway, so finding out about bulbils was extra excitement.
i suppose with big types sprouting them is no big deal, but mine were at most 1/2 inch and lots even less.
i don't know if i'll do it in the future - but it started me on a heating mat (reg heating pad for now) - i see that it's very useful to have, so will get a real one for next winter.
i'll put half of my sprouts outside in bright shade once it's good and hot (on wicks like African violets, so i don't have to monitor so much; i grow lots of stuff on water wicks, including my indoor polly). it's kinda problematic to have so many small plants going, but it's one of my favorites.
i have a big question about them: my tubers produce only 2 leaves at the tip; as new leaf grows, the older one dies. so it's always just 2. on nursery plants i see many more leaves on each stalk. what makes them grow so much? heat? ferts? i do feed them orchid food and osmocote.
but mine are never above 75F - may be that's the reason?


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RE: alocasia bulbils

they want heat and lots of it...if they get plenty of heat light and food they will hold 4 or 5 at a time but if the plant dosent have the energy to support 5 leaves you get 2..more food..give them 20-20-20 with high heat and light and they will really do well and should hold more leaves for you.


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RE: alocasia bulbils

Too much light will make masks drop leaves faster, they like it bright, but don't want to cook, and what mike said, once the get growing good they can actually grow pretty fast but until they hit that stride...they are pretty slow


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RE: alocasia bulbils

these are my sprouted tubers: have one leaf on each and one flowered with 2 flowers. I put this in direct west window, but it gets only a couple of hours , but it's warm and I am thinking of putting it out in august for a month into the heat. now that I have some babies going I might risk it.
I am giving it more feed then usual, so hopefully it'll do better.


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RE: alocasia bulbils

I bought this alocasia polly just a month ago. I potted it up, and just now I read that I needed to leave some of the tuber out of the soil - otherwise it won't grow. (Petrushka, like in your picture above, I understand). And indeed it didn't grow over the last month - two leaves are in the process of unfurling there as you can see, but haven't moved much if at all. Should I skim some potting mix off the top?


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RE: alocasia bulbils

And another aroid question. This caladium is sprouting a bud, as you can see. I've read advice to snip them off, so that the plant spends energy on more beautiful leaves and so that the tuber grows. I am inclined to let it flower just to see it (I never have), but I am open to being convinced one way or the other. Thank you.


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RE: alocasia bulbils

I don't snip off the flowers from mine. I don't think it matters much. sometimes, if you snip, it'll try to produce another one - which IS a waste of energy. I just cut them off once the spath decays.
depth of planting tubers? I don't know really. in many pics you see them planted deep, no tubers visible.
mine were in the same pot for sev years - so they grow and the base of the stem becomes the top of the tuber.
you can see my pics of tubers in the beginning - they are quite long. people say that they decay at the bottom slowly, so then you can plant deeper. mine just don't decay and so don't fit in the pot!
I did not want to put them in deeper pot - they might rot . I am using mums pot: wide and shallow. so they stick out on top. I planted one at an angle to see if this would encourage branching. one of them branched on it's own. I wanted to plant one horizontally to get many growing points - but I couldn't fit it in the pot!
I have also seen some pics of 'trees' - tall tuber-stems 1-2 feet above the ground on some pics - mostly from Asian growers.
by the way - you'll need to repot it soon again - they fill the pot fast and they like to stay moist. the small pot will dry out fast. but overpotting will rot it.
once I have it growing - I put it on water wick like African violets to maintain even moisture levels. so my soil contains 50% perlite for this and also the perimeter is wrapped in coir matting. it spreads the moisture to sides better and roots love it - there's air AND moisture. but I am the only one doing it :). it's my own adaptation. been doing it for sev years.


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RE: alocasia bulbils

Thanks, Петрушка! (I am Russian too)

I'll keep the Caladium bud to see what comes of it.

I am looking forward to the time when my Alocasia will be pot-bound - means it will have grown. I just recently got into potted plants, and this one is not the easiest to deal with. It has plenty of space in the pot for now. I did remove some soil from the top, so that the top of the tuber is right at the surface.


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RE: alocasia bulbils

privet!
it's a big caladium you have there. it does need a few hours of morning/evening sun, by the way. else the coloration will fade and leaves will get very leggy and start bending. it's a pain to stake them.
I also give my alocasias sev hours of sun. and they both like to be very warm and humid to grow well, above 75F and 70% humidity. 85F-85% is best.


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RE: alocasia bulbils

I keep my masks out in the summer, it can tricking finding that perfect spit for them, especially at first when just coming outta the house, I usually opt for morning sun, all plants prefer it evening sun in my experience...
So far the spit the seem happiest at Is under a bush that is trimmed up and has room under it. That spots filled this year so it's gunna get more sun, but generally they prefer outdoors as long as u don't cook em!
It should be warm enough now for them to benifit from it, why wait for August?

As for leaving some tuber above ground... No need, not sure who is spreading misinformation but it's not cool!
Most of these are a result if tissue culture. They would be the tiniest of plant when they Bergen like, at that point the do live on the surface of the soil, but in nature they would be seeds, and would die atop the soil... Once they are as big as a marble they could survive there... But it's detrimental, that bulb would likely produce more roots under the soil, and therefore feed the plant better, as the mature the tuber extends above the soil on its own, this is a pseudo stem, it is merely the tuber tho...all alocasia will do this, I think...
Petruska, your right go think laying it down will produce more shoots, I cut off the main growth point first an repot it laying down, takes several months but they spit new plants a few months later, remove them, or don't either way.

I love the trunked up p- stem look it just takes time, that big p- stem could be cut up and make lots more, I have to stop myself from doing this as I want lots of plants, I sell and trade them, but a mature specimen can really be a sight to behold!


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RE: alocasia bulbils

I had to consult my files to answer, but basically alocasias wake up from dormansy when it gets over 70F at night(75F is better) and grow best when it's 85F during the day. for me this means july-aug. we still get low 60F here now - and that's when mine stops growing in winter. that means the soil temp is going to be even lower. so I don't want to do that.
I am keeping it in the warmest spot now for growth: western window 3-4 hours of sun (building shades me) and 75F day, 70F nite.
the best I found on burying tubers:
the soil has to be kept very warm and very moist for roots to start growing to break dormancy: so if you bury the whole tuber and soil is not warm enough(heating mat is best) - the tuber rots easily. if you plant higher - at least you can cut off the top to replant. so it's less risky.
but yes, the whole tuber will grow roots top to bottom when buried, so that can be done too.
however, that presupposes large mature tuber. when nursery plants are sold, very often the tubers are not that big. the baby tubers produce lots of roots on top - so they actually need to be buried at least 1"-2" down to provide moist soil for growth. too deep and they can rot.
for now my tiny baby plants with 1 2-3" leaf are planted may be 1/2 to 3/4" inch down in tiny 2" by 4" plastic cups. so I can see root progress for replanting. and they are bagged and on heat still - so 100% humidity. the roots are constantly poking out the soil on top. on next uppot i'll plant them .5" deeper.


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RE: alocasia bulbils

I think u may be under estimating the sun, friend!
My night time lows are dipping into the fifties, still, spose to be 72 tonight tho 90 tmrw! Woot!
Even with night time lows droppin like that, my soils temp stays above 70 for the most part...
I just took it now at the base if my largest poly, it's been dormant for near 5 months now, I planted it 2 weeks ago in the ground and it's almost got its first leaf out, it's spiked up big time!
Soils temp there read 82 at 1" and 76 at 2.5 inches...
There no way u could achieve that indoors right now, not with my wife in control of the a/c... And even tho these windows I have here are junk, they r still all double pane uv treated glass, very little heat penetrates, not much usable light either, it's enough to keep even cacti goin in direct sun thru the window, but it's just not enought to make an EE excel!
I'm certainly not sayin that what ur doing is wrong, we all have diff conditions, and growing stratagies, but when I stopped worrying about my mask, and just started treating like alocasias, that's when they started to GROW, not just persist!
Granted the balcony is not the best place outdoors for them, but now u have several, in my opinion that's time to branch out and experiment...

My Thai giant made 3 bulbils this years, I put it back in its same spot, it likes it there, I put 2 in spots that I just known they would excel, and one in a spot that I was sure it would get too much sun... Well it's out growing the parent plant now, and has far surpassed the 2 I "knew" would excel!
Not only had I done much research on it but I had been advised by several "experts" we all agreed the one in the sun would burn... Show us all...


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RE: alocasia bulbils

grab, I take your point about the sun. it's good to know for the future that it heats up the soil this much.
and I would put them out, if I had more sunny exposure.
but my N-NE balcony only gets sun for a few hours in like one nook 2' wide :(. I don't think it can heat up anything much. and ...I have calamondins that need sun, jades that need sun, petunias and lilies and amaryllises that need a ray or two...you get the picture. I am an extreme balcony gardener ;).
but ok, i'll experiment, you talked me into it. I have 2 lil cups with 3" baby leaves that been rooting in actual soilless mix (not perlite) for 2 weeks and I can see roots at the sides. so I can put them out and see what develops:).
here's my balcony last august. and that does not include the sunny corner on the left.
but, a lil baby leaf I can fit in, sure...LOL


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RE: alocasia bulbils

: (
That is packed!
I'd think about diggings hole in a plant with similar care and plug the mask into there, it'll take much less care if its in a large pot like that, I've never had problems with them rotting in too big of a pot, it think they prefer more room to bring cramped, but even if that's a correctness a large pot that's filled with roots of another plant should never stay wet long as the roots if the big plant with keep that under control


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RE: alocasia bulbils

yah, that's a good idea, 'cause otherwise i'd have to put it on a wick like African violet to keep it hydrated - but it's too small for that really. I have a couple of pots with room up top. calla lily would be good. it's on a water wick itself, so 3" down the roots from the cup (once they grow thru the bottom) will get moisture. and it's not in exposed position.
though a drop into 60s is coming in a day. my roots are at 85F on a pad now. so I think I am going to wait for this to pass.


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RE: alocasia bulbils

I did a search again about leaving alocasia tuber partially out of the soil - and only one site mentions it out of many that do not. So, that top layer of soil is going right back to the top of the pot.

Petrushka, your balcony looks like a botanical garden! Love it!

Accidentally, I saw both Alocasias and Caladiums planted in containers in one of the plazas in NYC. I was jealous - they all looked so great, some were even flowering. I should have snapped a picture!


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RE: alocasia bulbils

greenT, go to florida gardening forum - they have spectacular pics. people plant hundreds of corms under trees, it's simply unbelievable. colo/alocasias can be left in the ground in fl - so they proliferate like weeds.
also check 'annuals' forum.
here's a great blog of fl garden
http://www.hoeandshovel.com/search/label/caladiums


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RE: alocasia bulbils

Hey!
It's not just Florida!
I leave atleast 4 types in the ground all year, this year that number will be higher for sure!
Last count was 223 ears in ground! : D
You guys in 7B can do way better!
That is... If u have ground...balconies don't work so good


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RE: alocasia bulbils

great link, petrushka - made me green with envy, except for the thumb - that is still kinda off-brownish color. :)


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RE: alocasia bulbils

my planted 'woken up' tubers are flowering with not 1 but 2 flowers. they are leafing out more then before: I am getting 3 leaves on some and may be even more coming.
I think it's because I am giving them better light then before, even sev hours of western hot sun. and lots of water and feed.
and I thought my plant was a goner!
this has been the most successful endeavor for this year.


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RE: alocasia bulbils

The plant looks great, petrushka! Do you use grow lights, or the sun on the balcony is all it gets? I am in the same zone, so of course very interested. Researching grow lights that look inconspicuous and will not turn a city apartment into a greenhouse-looking operation is on my todo list.

In other alocasia news: everybody, check out the attached link for a question I have about my alocasia. I did not want to derail the conversation by posting here. Thanks.

Here is a link that might be useful: alocasia roots wrapped in gauze? what?


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RE: alocasia bulbils

it's always indoors - western window dappled very bright sunlight 4-6 hours when growing, the warmest spot around 75-77F in summer. no growing lights.
here'a shot of babies, only 15% bulbils did not sprout. about 30% are now with 2 leaves. largest at 7", most single at 3-4". all still on a heat mat, most xplanted from perlite into single plastic cups with starter mix, bagged, very hi humidity, bright western window 2' away behind other plants, so mostly a few dapples of sun only.


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RE: alocasia bulbils

LOOKIN GOOD!

I dare say those babies would take more sun, if you have any room for them, but they still look good!


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RE: alocasia bulbils

they are still bagged and in very tiny cups. some still in perlite.. I am waiting for roots to fill the cups before I put them in 3" pots/wicks and in some sun. i am still planning to keep them on a heating pad, but will uncover and push into the window. I have verticals in case it gets too bright, so I can regulate the light.


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