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USDA testing Greer rhodies for Phytophthora ramorum

Giacamo
9 years ago

I just had a USDA rep testing rhodies that I bought through the mail from Greer Gardens for Phytophthora ramorum. I am nervous for the results since I have just put in a large rhododendron garden. Anyone else had this experience?

Comments (45)

  • akamainegrower
    9 years ago

    Yes. Leaf samples were taken by state ag department and sent on to Cornell U. for testing. All were negative for p. ramorum. This is part of a national program designed to prevent the spread of SOD which is caused by this particular species of water mold. Nurseries or state inspectors must report any finding of p. ramorum to the USDA which in turn notifies the authorities in the states or, as seems to be the case for you, performs an inspection itself. Greer does seem to have had an ongoing problem with this, but given the vast number of species sold and the large number of growers involved, that's not terribly surprising. If a shipment of plants arrives at Greer or any other nursery with this infection, the notice is required even though the other 99% of plants sold are clean. You can only wait and see, but I would not be overly alarmed.

  • Giacamo
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Thanks

    Thanks, akamainegrower. I was totally ignorant of the fact that this disease was being carried by rhododendrons! I have all the rhododendron books, but I guess it is too new. I wish the danger of buying from Oregon and California had been more widely publicized. It seems as though the growers and the government, national and state, knew all about it but the public was not well informed and were left holding the bag. If I had known about Greer's history with this problem I would not have risked my garden by ordering from them--but I guess that is the point. I also wish Greer would have contacted me as soon as they knew about the problem, but not one peep! It seems as though the government is protecting the growers at the expense of the consumer. Well, nothing new about that!

  • gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
    9 years ago

    What you experienced is known as a 'trace forward' inspection. It is done on the consumer end of a transaction if a nursery has ever had an infected plant detected. Since Washington, Oregon and California are huge growers of landscape plants sold all over the country and in the case of mail order sources like Greer, even out of the country, monitoring for SOD is a continual and ongoing process. While I'm sure the inspection was nerve-wracking for you, imagine the nail-biting that goes on at the wholesale or retail nursery level, when the risk is a significant part of their inventory and therefore their asset base? The good news is I have never read or heard of ANY consumer/home gardener anywhere that actually lost any or all of their garden due SOD detection. Hasn't even happened to any nurseries although some have had part of their stock confiscated and destroyed.

    Don't single out Greer. It is only one of many nurseries that have had a SOD infected plant show up but they are doing their part - as are all other west coast growers and nurseries - to keep this disease in check. ALL nurseries that produce or sell out of state any SOD host plants are subject to frequent inspections and sometimes quarantines. The trace forward inspections are routine but I believe random so I'm not all surprised you were not informed by Greer of this possibility.

    i am surprised you haven't heard about this issue before. The BIG kaffuffle regarding SOD was 2003-2005 or so, when USDA inspectors were visiting every nursery on the west coast and it was widely reported in the media. It has died down considerably since then and it is my understanding the USDA feels it has a good handle on the problem. The issue is the huge number of host plants, to which the disease is not particularly damaging, if at all. These tend to be some of the backbone of the west coast nursery industry and the most popular landscape plants so they are produced in huge numbers and shipped everywhere, increasing the potential for the infection to occur. That its actual incidence is SO limited is a credit to everyone involved.

  • Giacamo
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Thanks gardengirl for replying to my post. I am not a member of the nursery trade-just a casual rhododendron gardener--and I was not growing rhododendrons in 2003-2005, so I, like almost all casual buyers of rhododendrons, did not know about the disease.
    I can understand that the nursery trade people are having a hard time managing this disease. But I do think that the danger of buying rhodies has not been sufficiently explained to the general public. Searching the literature online in the past few days, I find many references to the activities of government agencies at various levels and to nurseries and other "stake holders," but no mention of informational campaigns to the general public. There is mention of the number of nurseries where inspectors have found infected plants but these nurseries are never named--even those with repeated problems. So there is no way for the lay buyer to know which nurseries are more problematical and which are not.
    I think the public should be better informed so that they can make their own judgement as to whether and where to purchase these problem plants. It would seem that an informed gardening public would be an enormous help--indispensable in fact-- in combating this disease. USDA , with their limited budgets, seems to be constrained from protecting the public for fear of offending the nursery trade. As it now stands the lay gardener doesn't hear about this disease until a representative from the USDA or a local agency acting for them knocks on their door and says they have to inspect all the rhododendrons bought from Greer Gardens and then starts taking samples and in general treating the home gardener like he or she has committed some offense. And, as I understand it, although no one has bothered to explain it to me, if they do find an infected plant, that plant and surrounding plants have to be destroyed and the area sterilized with some extremely toxic chemical. All this is extremely unpleasant and potentially disastrous for anyone who has planted an entire garden in rhodies.
    As I understand from the follow-up post previous to yours, Greer Gardens has been having this problem for some time. I would have more sympathy with the nursery owners if they and the government agencies concerned would have some consideration for what this means to the lay home gardener who is sometimes left holding the bag (of diseased rhododendrons).

  • akamainegrower
    9 years ago

    Giacomo: You make some good points, but keep in mind that Greer may have never had any rhododendrons at all with p. ramorum infection. If Greer or any other nursery receives from a grower an infected plant of an entirely different species, it must be reported. Once that report is made, any species with the possibility of p. ramorum infection must be checked. I would be very surprised if any infected rhododendron or other plant was shipped by Greer Gardens. Possible of course, but unlikely.

    If the USDA inspector treated you as some sort of criminal, I would complain. That's a problem of an individual inspector, not the policy.

  • Giacamo
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    akamainegrower: I do not think that Mr. Greer would have shipped a rhododendron, knowing that it was infected. I have had the highest respect for this grand old man of rhododendrons: his writings have guided my rhododendron selection and gardening. This entire affair has been tragic for him and his nursery.
    It may be true, as you say, that Greer Gardens has never had an infected rhododendron. I would have liked some assurance of that fact, but I was told nothing. A simple note reassuring his customers would have helped a lot.
    The local person who inspected my rhododendrons was polite and I have no criticisms of him personally, it is the nature of the whole process that made us feel anything but innocent victims of this affair.
    My aims in writing about this were two:
    1. I wanted to do as much as I could to warn casual rhododendron gardeners about the problems they might encounter buying rhododendrons, so that they are not blind-sided like I was.
    2. To let the USDA and the nursery growers know what their prevention program against p. ramorum feels like at the consumer level and to encourage them to publicize the nature of this disease and their efforts to control it more widely to lay buyers of rhododendrons.

    On a more positive side, I would be interested in hearing from experienced rhododendron growers what steps gardeners might take after they have purchased rhododendrons and before they transplant them in their gardens. Should they be held in a kind of quarantine? And, if so, how long an observation period is necessary to make sure they are not infected? What steps should they take in growing rhododendrons to control the disease. When should they have a suspected plant diagnosed, and where ect.?

  • akamainegrower
    9 years ago

    Identification of p. ramorum is difficult. Best method relies on DNA analysis and highly specialized equipment. Visible symptoms are not at all reliable because there are many species of water molds which can cause similar leaf spotting, etc.

    California is recommending the use of AgriFos which is one brand name of a phosphonic acid based fungicide as a preventative spay on native oaks. As far as I know it has not been tested on rhododendrons and is a bit controversial - some believe it merely masks the symptoms of p. ramorum thus making control more difficult.

    Perhaps gardengal48 can provide some information on latest developments in treatment and prevention.

    For a number of years the paper catalog from Greer Gardens had a note that the entire nursery had been inspected and found free of SOD problems. I do agree that some note to buyers would have been a good idea once infection had been detected. SOD has been widely publicized, but finding out about it only when the USDA inspector comes calling is a poor policy. At this point, I am increasingly curious about how many other West Coast nurseries are also on the USDA watch list.

  • gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
    9 years ago

    Giacomo, I can understand your concern. The SOD issue is a complicated one but the problem IS centered with the nursery industry - they are the ones to which the restrictions and quarantines are focused as it is the intent to stop the spread of the disease by preventing potentially infected plant material from ever leaving the nursery in the first place. Any consumer attention - like yours - is very much after the fact to confirm, if you will, that the plants are clean.

    I do think your concern that the "danger of buying rhodies " is a bit overstated. I'm not at all sure there is a real danger :-) Rhododendrons are probably one of the most widely sold landscape plants in WA state and I don't know of a single case of SOD occurring with any purchased rhododendron plant in this state. As I stated previously the growers and wholesalers marketing these plants are highly scrutinzied - not on a one-time basis but on an ongoing schedule - to ensure these plants are clean when they get to market. So to answer your question, ALL west coast nurseries growing or selling these plants are on a SOD watch list.

    The possibility of your "risking your garden" by purchasing these plants is really very remote. It is almost like signing the consent form when you have surgery or other medical procedures that outlines all the possible negative issues - including death - that could potentially occur. It's kind of an abundance of caution protocol. To my knowledge - and I've been actively involved in the nursery industry here in a number of capacities for the last 20 years - no end consumer/homeowner has ever had a detected case of SOD.

    FYI, Briggs Nursery, one of the largest commercial growers of rhodies and supplier to many of the larger wholesalers, has a very complicated protocol in place for monitoring SOD. Visitors/nursery buyers/sales reps visiting the nursery must wear protective footwear and cars or nursery transport must actually drive through a disinfectant bath to make sure no infections come in or goes out of the nursery growing fields.

    If you still harbor concerns about this disease, then simply don't do any more mail order. I would have a very hard time believing Greer's offers anything more exotic or less readily available than any of the dozens of better local suppliers.. Most large retail nurseries in western WA offer a huge selection of rhodies and you could purchase in person without concern.

  • Giacamo
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    gardengal48:

    Your advice to purchasers of rhododendrons seems to be :"Trust in God, the USDA, and the nursery owners!"

    The Deity seems to have more pressing business elsewhere and the nursery owners and the USDA don't seem to be completely effective in protecting consumers or the local inspector would not have shown up at my door.

    I have cleared my large mountain property and have planted over 100 rhododendrons over the past three years. All but six were purchased from the Rhododendron Species Foundation, of which I am a proud member, and two reliable local nurseries. The six were recently bought mail order from Greer Gardens, which I trusted implicitly. Local nurseries do not, in fact, have all the rhododendrons that a serious collector is interested in buying; that is why I was buying from Greer Gardens.

    I will never buy a mail order rhododendron again! I was smart enough to figure that out once I found out about the disease and the dangers it held for my garden.

    I do not think P. ramorum is under control or will ever be. It has found its way into western Washington waterways and has been found in many Washington nurseries. I have even heard that the USDA is thinking of de-regulating it! Oregon has eased reporting and inspecting requirements because the state could not handle all the notifications.

    Given that, we rhododendron buyers, especially those with large collections, have to protect ourselves and assist the USDA and the nurseries to combat this threat to our beloved plants.

    From now on, I am going to hold any rhododendron that I purchase in quarantine for at least 90 days before planting in my garden. And before I transplant them I am going to hose away all nursery planting media from the roots. I am also exploring local facilities for testing foliage and planting media so that I can test new rhodies and any suspected rhodies in my garden before planting. Any other suggestions would be welcome.

  • rhodyman
    9 years ago

    There are a number of factors to remember.

    First, P. ramorum doesn't kill rhododendrons, it kills oaks. The symptoms on rhododendrons are leaf spots and dieback.

    Second, Most local nurseries don't propagate all of their stock. They buy much of their stock from the same wholesale nurseries that mail order nurseries buy from. The Rhododendron Species Foundation and tissue culture plants that were never planted in soil are probably the safest sources. The next safest are plants from nurseries that have been recently tested and use sterile media or bark dust and no soil. That would include most commercial nurseries.

    Third, there is an up-to-date book that just came out that discusses rhododendron and azalea diseases and pests, Compendium of Rhododendron and Azalea Diseases and Pests, Second Edition. The only omission I have found is deer. It is available for $79 ($20 discount) at ARSStore.org. Anyone with a major investment in rhododendrons and azaleas or is raising very unusual plants should have a copy. It not only is great at diagnosing problems, but it also deals with the causal agent, prevention, epidemiology, and control. It even discusses the integrated pest management systems that nurseries use and the regulations they must follow. It has lots of information on P. ramorum.

    Here is a link that might be useful: ARSStore.org - Compendium of Rhododendron & Azalea Diseases & Pests

  • Giacamo
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    rhodyman:
    Thanks for the book reference: I will get a copy.
    It is my understanding that it can kill rhododendrons, or deface them so much that they might as well be dead. Some of the pictures displayed by government agencies as samples of p. ramorum infection show seriously damaged plants.
    Most of my rhododendrons are from a local nursery that uses ground bark for a medium, that has been tested and found clean, and also isolates any plants they have purchased before incorporating them into their inventory.
    Thanks for your useful advice!

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    9 years ago

    "The good news is I have never read or heard of ANY consumer/home gardener anywhere that actually lost any or all of their garden due SOD detection."

    That doesn't mean it isn't going to happen at some point.

    "Hasn't even happened to any nurseries although some have had part of their stock confiscated and destroyed. "

    I've heard from a considerable authority on the subject that an entire PNW rhododendron wholesaler was shut down, and all their plants destroyed and all nursery debris burned, because of a massive SOD infestation.

    Now that everyone know their nursery is closing next year, I'll say after 2 rounds of inspections of Greer plants in 2010 and 2011 or so, I said never again to purchasing from them. Looks like it was a reasonable conclusion, that history would repeat itself.

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    9 years ago

    "First, P. ramorum doesn't kill rhododendrons, it kills oaks. The symptoms on rhododendrons are leaf spots and dieback. "

    It doesn't kill rhododendrons in areas where it kills oaks. HOWEVER, we don't know what it will do in the climate of the east coast, which is generally more favorable to water mould diseases on rhododendrons.

    Giacomo, you are already in the PNW, so as gardengal points out, you should have a better selection of rhododendrons available to you locally. If you stick to plants that are obviously produced by Briggs (there are ways to tell) you should be fine. Likewise, I have been to the RSF. Their nursery is so clean looking, you could probably use the greenhouses as surgical suites. I wouldn't worry about them. Kathy Van Veen has told me every bit of plant material entering her houses is sanitized. I've never had cuttings received from her even have a tiny bit of leaf spot. So you are probably safe with her as well.

    I have also visited Greer. Yes, he is a very important figure of American Horticulture, and it was an honor to be able to meet him ever briefly. However, the nursery was a little shabby. Sorry, it's just the truth. From what I was able to gather on site and what I've heard from others, for years he produced very little of his own stock and instead essentially brokered plants from a very wide variety of wholesalers to a wide variety of mail order customers all around the country. That is the issue - lots of plants flowing in, lots flowing out. So if even one infected plant flows in, the USDA has to trace any that were in the nursery at the same time. In any case it's all academic because there are several public news articles about the fact the land is being redeveloped next year. So this is their last hurrah.

  • gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
    9 years ago

    I've heard from a considerable authority on the subject that an entire PNW rhododendron wholesaler was shut down, and all their plants destroyed and all nursery debris burned, because of a massive SOD infestation.

    Hmmmm.......I'd think it a bit odd that as a local nurseryperson and a former plant buyer for two different area nurseries during the peak of the SOD scare I have never heard that tidbit. Nor can I find any evidence of it in any local industry publications. Not saying it isn't so, just that the nursery in question must not have been a significant player.

    And Giacamo, I really do think your concerns are somewhat misplaced. It has been found in very few WA nurseries, given the huge number of them that exist. As far as the detection in waterways, one has been identified as downstream from a known infection source. The other is undetermined and is very likely a natural occurrence. This IS a forest-based pathogen afterall and does exist naturally outside of any nursery environment. And the spread of the disease IS being held in check. The number of actual nurseries detected SOD positive in 2013 ( the most current record) is 18, the lowest number since 2002.

    I might also suggest you expand your sources of less common rhodies. There is at least one specialty nursery in this area that rivals if not exceeds the selection available at Greer - some 600+ hybrids (including several of their own) and more than 100 species. And it is open to the public.

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    9 years ago

    I think Giacomo is sensible to be aware of the situation and do everything reasonable to mitigate the risk to his garden. If you're at a local nursery, you have every right to ask about where the plants are coming from. They also have every right to ignore the question, of course. I agree with you gardengal, that the situation seems under control for now. But under control has a way of not staying that way, as 2 nurses in Dallas recently found out. The best laid schemes of mice and men, and all that...
    I think I've asked that other nursery about their status, a few years ago, and they assured me they'd had no situations requiring trace forwards. I will ask them again before ordering from them again.

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    9 years ago

    "Nor can I find any evidence of it in any local industry publications."
    Well, sheesh, look at the USDA's official SOD newsletter. They don't discuss the names of nurseries involved in traces, to avoid creating panic. So why would a trade publication do so!?

  • gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
    9 years ago

    Oh, you'd be surprised what pops up the local industry rags. LOL!! I sometimes think that the local nursery professional association goes out of its way to call out nurseries struggling or having financial issues. Whether it's simply to be nasty or presenting it as some sort of learning tool for others, I'm not at all sure. But the rumor grapevine is always very active in this incestuous industry so I'd have thought I would have heard about it one way or another.

  • Embothrium
    9 years ago

    Some years ago one of the world authorities on Phytophthora told me the cat was out of the bag as far as P. ramorum was concerned, with any possibility of containment having long passed. So it should be expected that it will pop up here and there indefinitely and that is just the way it is.

    What I have seen hammer rhododendrons in local plantings for some years now is powdery mildew, whatever effects P. ramorum has had on these particular plants in this region so far don't seem likely to have been nearly as severe.

    British collections have also had significant losses to mildew, the Exbury estate for example gave up spraying for it because it was costing them 32,000 pounds per year.

    As different kinds vary in how severely they are affected it is still possible to hang onto a rhododendron collection without spraying for mildew, I get the impression none of the local publicly accessible displays are spraying for it.

    With the result that many specimens don't look as good as they used to but are still alive. As the condition appears to have originated in the wild one way to look at it is that infested plants are just looking normal or natural. Of course, when a particular kind is completely defoliated by it and dies a different way of seeing the situation is likely to emerge.

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    9 years ago

    "gave up spraying for it because it was costing them 32,000 pounds per year. "

    Good God, what were they spraying with, colloidal gold? Part of the problem here is the regulatory expense. And, I'm not some right wing hack taking sides, I'm just pointing out the truth. Let's assume potassium bicarbonate can treat powdery mildew. I'm pretty sure I've used it or NaHCO3 myself to treat it. In the US at least, it would be illegal to do the following: buy a pallet of food grade potassium bicarbonate from Univar for $2000, which is about the most innocuous stuff in the world, and spray your 2 million rhododendrons with it. Because you have to use a "licensed" pesticide, which would cost 100X as much. Even if it were just Potassium bicarbonate. I'm sure the situation is the same or worse in the even more regulatory minded UK or EU.
    Oh well, the mildew at Exbury only makes their plants look ugly, at a time when few people are looking at the Ericaceous plants anyhow. It's not surprising it's more an issue there than the PNW, when I was on the south coast I was surprised by the mugginess. Nothing like the mid-Atlantic of course, but the English Channel waters are probably almost 10F warmer than your Pacific waters at the end of summer. Ergo, higher dewpoints. With my hotel window opened (after signing a waiver) it was just on the edge of permitting comfortable sleep.

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    9 years ago

    And btw though I frequently seem to advocate the use of pesticides or herbicides compared to some people, I agree with mainegrower they are NOT the solution to dealing with this problem. They don't get rid of it, they just mask it. In only makes sense to save specimens in areas where SOD is going to be permanently endemic. Which is think is the case with the coastal Norcal counties. They aren't actually planning to ever rid those areas of it. Too late. So, to save an oak in Bay Area park, yes, it seems reasonable. Not an infected plant outside the quarantine area.

    I am using fungicides on a temporary basis, to protect sensitives rhodies from *cosmopolitan* Phytophthoras which would otherwise kill them on the east coast; until I can graft them onto long term heat-resistant varieties. That's quite different that trying to stop SOD with them. I finally think I have made 3 successful grafts. They are showing warty callus tissue which I think is a sign of success, or at least the first stage of it. (whether they will show incompability down the road is a risk I'm willing to take)

    This post was edited by davidrt28 on Wed, Oct 22, 14 at 14:19

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    9 years ago

    "What I have seen hammer rhododendrons in local plantings for some years now is powdery mildew,"

    Funny I thought I'd read in various sources it was more of a problem (on rhodies) in England than the PNW. Are the plants you see with problems in irrigated gardens?

  • Embothrium
    9 years ago

    Problem is general here and has been for some time. It appeared many mistakenly thought the gauntness of their mildewing shrubs during the years after the 1990 winter was cold damage, as the 90's were when it became pervasive. Anyone wanting to have completely "clean" and fully productive plants now will have to be spraying them every year like those rose hobbyists who do likewise. Related plants like salal and leucothoe have also been showing a similar condition.

    For me personally the advent of this meant that rhododendrons and leucothoe etc. were no longer something I could buy and plant with providing suitable exposures and soils (plus the often very necessary summer irrigation) being pretty much the extent of cultivation requirements to be concerned with.

    I should also mention that spotty, dusty looking plants I assumed were mildewing at a local outlet awhile back I was then made aware were actually having a lace-bug problem (that the vendor was spraying for). So perhaps some of the "mildew" I had been seeing for years was probably actually lace-bug infestations. I often see these on rhododendrons in this area.

  • Giacamo
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    I just received notice that USDA did not find P. ramorum among my rhodies from Greer. They did find other P. species on them, but o.k. I ditched them all!
    Thanks to everyone who replied to my initial posting. I learned a great deal about P. ramorum and rody cultivation in general from a really urbane group of rhody experts.

  • akamainegrower
    9 years ago

    Giacomo: Glad the inspection turned up no p. ramorum, but keep in mind that there are well over 100 different species of phytophthora.Then there's pythium infection and several more. Rooted cuttings and tissue cultured propugules may be clear of any and all infections for a time but once they are out in the real world they will inevitably pick up some. The best we can do as gardeners - short of saturating the environment with fungicides of dubious value - is to give our rhododendrons the best growing conditions we can, prune out dead and diseased wood, use the least toxic fungicides available and then only when absolutely necessary, avoid species and hybrids that are particularly infection prone in our specific environment. Chances are you already had/have many species of water molds and other infectious agents in your soil long before buying any rhododendrons. Chances are also that any rhododendron you buy, pot grown or field grown, will also have some infection even if it's not p. romorum.That's just the reality of rhododendron culture and if we are going to grow them at all we have to live with it. The quest for 100% infection free plantings is quixotic unless you are in a highly controlled environment, not a garden.

  • rhodyman
    9 years ago

    Phytophthora is just about everywhere. You most certainly have it in your garden already. Most continents in the world have several Phytophthora species. The problem occurs when they are transported to an area where they are not endemic. Then they often become epidemic.

    The omnivorous, and seemingly ubiquitous Phytophthora cinnamomi is common place in North America. There are other species of Phytophthora in the forests, but we know very little about either their pathology or their ecology. In contrast to growing attention in other parts of the world, there are few active research programs in North or South America focusing on forest Phytophthoras. Phytophthora ramorum is an exception, and there is thought it may be a native Phytophthora that has just be moved into new areas where it was never found before.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Phytophthora Diseases of Forest Trees

  • gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
    9 years ago

    Did I read that right?? You "ditched them all" even though testing clean of P. ramorum? Why in the world would you do that?

    As the previous posts have indicated, soil pathogens are pretty much omnipresent. That doesn't necessarily spell doom for the plants that may test out with traces of them.
    Barring the indication of a unique pathogen whose spread may cause undue harm to areas where it is not currently active - like the SOD - there is really little to worry about provided you are offering the correct cultural conditions and care for the plants in question.Typically, these water molds are more opportunistic than grossly infectious.

    Other than the P. ramorum, most phytophthoras have little to no impact on rhodies in this area if drainage is good and roots undamaged.

  • Giacamo
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Thanks, again for the information on phytophthoras!

    I told the USDA rep who tested my rhodies to visit this site if she wanted to know what some of the rhododendron growing public thought about all this. I hope she gets an ear full.

    Gardengal: I destroyed the four small plants that I had purchased from Greer and am disposing of the plant media and the containers in which they came. This may be irrational but I wanted Greer Gardens out of my life forever.Their presence in my garden would forever remind me of this miserable episode!

  • j0nd03
    9 years ago

    Well, Giacamo, just want you to know you are not alone. Last year I ordered a few plants from Greer. Among them were a beech and a dogwood which IIRC are carriers for SOD. In my case, Greer sent a letter to me informing of SOD and the possibility it might be on my plants. They mentioned a technician would be visiting me soon to collect samples. Mine also turned out negative for SOD but it did scare me enough to sever all purchasing from sources west of the Rockies. It is probably an overreaction but it soothes my psyche and gives me peace.

  • gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
    9 years ago

    it did scare me enough to sever all purchasing from sources west of the Rockies.

    Depending on what you are buying and who is sourcing it, just limiting mail order sources west of the Rockies may not be restricting your exposure much. Some of the largest providers of landcape plants are located on the west coast and they ship everywhere in the country. So even your local nursery or home improvement store may be carrying SOD host plants sourced from out west.

  • j0nd03
    9 years ago

    Very true, GG! I am mostly growing from seed these days but I still purchase the occasional plant mail order from an east coast nursery. I suppose they could have stock shipped from the west coast.

    I just remembered I did recently receive an order of two deodaras from westernevergreen. That is the only order I've made since dealing with Greers. I didn't actually make the order myself, rather I piggie backed on a friend's order to save on shipping

    This post was edited by j0nd03 on Thu, Oct 30, 14 at 14:10

  • akamainegrower
    9 years ago

    With a few exceptions, all of the large wholesale plant producers are on the west coast. Much of the material available at indepedent garden centers in the east came from there. The big box stores are the same as are many of the eastern mail order specialists. The semi-hysteria over p.ramorum is, in my view, completely unwarranted and avoiding purchases from west of the Rockies is really unnecessary and won't do anything to totally avoid the problem in the first place.

    If you want something to worry about, consider the many, many plants sold on eBay and shipped all over the place which have no indication of ever being inspected at all. The actions taken by the agriculture departments in CA, OR and WA, as well as the USDA, are completely appropriate and really no different from the efforts to stop the spread of the hemlock adelgid, Japanese beetle, dogwood anthracnose or any other potentially dangerous pest or disease.

  • j0nd03
    9 years ago

    As I stated earlier - Peace. Of. Mind.

    All of your points are valid, Aka, but I'm doing what I can to make sure I don't bring it here. Have you ever had your state department come out to your house for an inspection of a potentially catastrophic disease you may have introduced to you locale? All due to ordering from sites potentially harboring said pathogen. It's an attention getter let me tell ya

    Hey, guess what! I am also for 3 week quarantine for health care workers that have been to active ebola outbreaks in Africa! Yes, illegal immigrants could bring it in undetected, but we should be actively doing whatever we can to keep it out.

    psssst* I am a health care worker, myself

  • Giacamo
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    akamainegrower:
    Your information that most plants in the country come from west coast nurseries and that you can buy any plant from anywhere, no questions asked, on e-bay, is enough to turn semi-hysteria into full-blown paranoia.

  • gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
    9 years ago

    And you could get hit by a truck tomorrow, but chances are very good that you won't. Pretty much the same thing. Worry about the things that have a significant potential for harm to you or your environment. I'd be far more concerned about the spread of Japanese beetles or Emerald Ash Borer to the PNW than the remote probability of a widespread outbreak of a pathogene that is not even fatal to rhodies. Heck, even root weevils are more of a concern!!

    It's not very healthy to spend your life in fear :-)

  • Giacamo
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    I could be hit by a truck tomorrow but that doesn't prevent me driving as defensibly as possible.
    P. ramorum is a serious disease, not merely for private gardeners, but also for the oak forests of the east. We rhododendron gardeners owe it to ourselves and to our environment to do everything we can to combat the spread of this disease.
    Nursery people and those who sail in them advise us not to worry and to purchase plants with our eyes wideshut. What is good for the nursery business is not necessarily good for the United States.

  • akamainegrower
    9 years ago

    An important point that seems to be missing from this discussion is that infection with p. ramorum is not a death sentence for the vast majority of plants in whch it has been detected. In California it is primarily a forest disease which can, indeed, kill tan oaks (lithocarpus) and some true oaks (querqus) native to the West Coast. The bay laurel (laurus nobilis) is an important host which is not killed by the infection. The danger to the Eastern forest is miniscule to non-existent. White oak appears to be immune and as far as I know infection has not been detected in any other Eastern oak species, even those that were planted and are now growing on the West Coast. Infection has been detected in oaks, larches and other species in parts of Europe, but appears to do little harm.

    j0nd03j: As I made clear in my first post, I have indeed been visited by a state inspector. In subsequent conversation with her on that visit, it became clear that the state of Maine is complying, as it should, with the APHIS program to monitor p. ramorum but that state officials - in a state in which the forest products industry is a very major part of the economy - are not at all concerned with the possibilty of widespread infection from p. ramorum. Your peace of mind is pretty much an illusion in the first place and unless you want to retreat into a sterile hotel room like Howard Hughes, living in the world will always entail some risk.

  • Giacamo
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    While it is true that so far P. ramorum seems to be under control in Maine, the Maine Department of Agriculture, Forestry included the following statement in a June 2014 report:

    "An Update on Ramorum Blight (Sudden Oak Death) -Phytophthora ramorum. �"
    The past winter has taken a toll on some woody species, especially Rhododendrons (see the May 2014 issue of the
    Conditions Report.) which has prompted concerned homeowners, nurserymen, and foresters to ask for an update of the status of P. ramorum in Maine.

    The disease known as Sudden Oak Death continues to
    be a threat to forests and woody ornamental
    plantings in the eastern United States."

  • j0nd03
    9 years ago

    Let me first clarify my interest in this subject. I don't give 1 crap about rhodies. I do have some nice azaleas which have been blooming for almost two months this fall. However, my main concern is the oak-hickory forest that is the major forest type in my region and specifically on my land. Although I love collecting and growing plants, I will do whatever I consciously can to minimize any possible threat my collecting could have on the native plant community around me.

    I work in the dental field and one interesting statistic is the fact if you have a percutaneous exposure with a patient's HIV infected blood, the rate of subsequent infection is 0.3-0.5% in a dental setting. Knowing the odds are incredibly low, any particular person that became exposed would still be on pins and needles until they received their test results. It is pretty damn human to worry about such things that are an imminent threat to health.*pathogens/pests in the forest*

    It's also pretty damn human to ignore any threat perceived to be highly unlikely if it hasn't directly impacted self- fatal car crash on the way to work or some microscopic soil pathogen is actually capable of killing a vast swath of our forests when it is far away. *SOD threat minimizers*

    I don't take the 'holier/smarter than thou' approach you have taken, Aka. I don't think those that think differently than me on the subject are irresponsible lazy asses, they just have different convictions than I do about it. I also certainly don't consider myself Howard Hughes crazy. I don't appreciate the condescending tone in your analogy, either.

    Personally, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if we in the east with our wetter climate have native soil microbes that keep this particular strain of phytophthora in check. Our native eastern trees may also be somewhat more able to deal with the pathogen due to surviving in conditions more similar to the pathogens native region. The east coast is much more like the Philippines when it comes to climate precip wise than the west coast not that either is an exact match.

  • akamainegrower
    9 years ago

    Giacoma: It's more than a little misleading to quote the first paragraph but not the two that follow. These comprise the update referred to in the first one. Among other things: there have been only two instances of p. ramorum ever found in the state, one at a retail establishment, one at a home in a recently purchased plant. These occured in 2006 and 2012. Surveys of forests and streams in 2007 and 2008 failed to find any trace of the pathogen. The update concludes, "Maine is considered to be at low risk for the establishment of p. ramorum under field conditions." In addition to state forestry officials, large timber companies like Irving and Plum Creek also engage in constant testing. None of this is any reason not to be vigilant, but should provide some perspective.

    j0nd03; No condescension was intended in what I previously wrote. Again, it is a matter of perspective. Your desire to protect the hardwood forests of the Southeast is entirely laudable, but from my point of view p. ramorum is far less of a threat to what you hold dear than wholesale land clearance for vacation homes, mountaintop mining, any number of insect pests intoduced not by the nursery industry but by international shippers, climate change and a host of other problems. The - to me - wholly out of proportion reaction to p. ramorum blinds us to other far more serious threats.

  • Giacamo
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Thanks to all those experienced gardeners who assure us that in regard to P. ramorum all we have to fear is fear itself. I sincerely hope they are right.

    However, this reminds me of a story told about Queen Mother Elizabeth of England, returning in 1927 from a royal visit to Australia on the battleship Renown. A raging inferno broke out in one of the boiler rooms, threatening the ammunition rooms and a disaster. While the crew fought the fire for ten hours to save the ship, reassuring messages understating the danger were repeatedly brought to the Duke and Duchess. When she was asked afterwards by the Captain if she had realized how serious the situation had been, she replied "Yes I did. Every hour someone came and told me that there was nothing to worry about, so I knew there was real trouble." (Christopher Warwick,1988, p. 68)

  • gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
    9 years ago

    Nice story, but maybe not the same situation :-)

    The only reason the subject was brought up at all is because of your post expressing concern. And repeated admonitions came about only in response to your follow-ups somewhat overstating the severity of the situation as well as expressing continuing concerns about the seemingly laissez-faire attitude of the nursery industry.

    We were just attempting to reassure you that the situation is not nearly as dire as you apparently believe.

    Gardening should be a pleasant and relaxing pasttime and while it can be disrupted or impacted by all sorts of factors over which we have no control, the possibilty - not probability - of these things occurring should not overly affect our enjoyment. Take that from a longtime PNW gardener who just happens to have close associations with nursery industry :-)) If anyone should be concerned it should be someone who has firsthand knowledge of just what awful sorts of things could - but probably won't - befall your efforts.

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    9 years ago

    Only had time to skim but:
    "but it did scare me enough to sever all purchasing from sources west of the Rockies."
    I thought about doing this for a while, too. But, I think most nurseries (and governments) there are taking it seriously enough that many more trace forwards are unlikely to occur. I now see this blanket ban as an over-reaction. Frankly, I think the only way it's *likely* to spread to the east anymore would be some kind of malicious innoculation...alas...given the poor state of mental health care in our country, not outside the realm of possibility.
    (as I posted elsewhere, Greer is closing next year)

    "semi-hysteria over SOD"
    Sorry, akmainegrower...you've suffered the tunnel vision of many people with specialized interests. Ebola? Yes, the country is in a state of semi-hysteria over that. SOD? I doubt many people outwith Northern California have even heard of it. Yes, we are discussing it here on gardenweb. That's a drop in a swimming pool of human awareness.

    At any rate, the USDA is being vigilant about it. Which is completely different from hysteria. We _REALLY DON'T KNOW_ what it will do in the east. If you'd asked the world's Phytophthora expects 25 years ago if any species of it would start killing all the larch forests in England, they would have told you that was a crazy, incredibly unlikely scenario. Well, that's exactly what happened. Could it do to white oaks of the east what it's doing to Quercus in northern California? Absolutely. Even if the climates are different. These things generally prefer to grow in moisture...they'd probably rather have a climate that is moist the whole year instead of one that's moist for a 1/2 year. It probably came from Asia and our oaks would be just as naive to it as those of California. The fact it came from Asia (or is an Asian hybrid) means it probably grows well with moisture and warm soil.

  • akamainegrower
    9 years ago

    davidrt28: Re p. ramorum in England. As far as I've been able to determine, the strain found in Europe is a variant of the one isolated in CA. The larches effected are (so far) plantation grown Japanese larches and wild growing rhododendron ponticum seems to be playing the role bay laurel plays on the west coast as the major infective agent.

    The USDA or Forest Service created a risk map in, I think 2010, showing areas of the US as high, moderate, and low risk for p. ramorum becoming established. Most of the country is considered low risk, but there is an area designated high risk running up the Appalachian chain and into southern New England. P. ramorum is a serious disease, but the current APHIS policy seems to be working extremely well. Vigilance is important and semi-hysteria was a little too strong, but I think plants originating at regularly inspected nurseries are not a great danger.

    In my view the Eastern hardwood forest is in my much, much greater danger from newly introduced pests such as the Asian long horned beetle, climate change and land clearance than p. ramorum. I am old enough to have witnessed the virtual extinction of the American elm which used to grace almost every New England town. People in the Midwest are living through the twilight of the ashes. The American chestnut once comprised 20% of the Eastern forest. The Eastern hemlock is under threat every where. Doing everything you can to insure that your state ag/forestry department has the financial resources to do its job has never been more important. Pressuring eBay to stop listing uninspected plants for sale is important, if so far futile.

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    9 years ago

    Ok, well, I think we are pretty much on the same page here.

    Since the Appalachian mountains contain far more virgin forest than the Piedmont, even if those are the only areas severely impacted by SOD it would be devastating. But I'm not sure the USDA's predictions are based on the most solid science. Guess what? Scientists still make "mistakes" sometimes in the sense that their predictions are wrong. No, I'm not some crazy global warming denier. I'm just a realist. These organisms have obviously proven unpredictable before, and could do so again - and they have a long history of epidemics in suspectible populations. They could mutate faster than expected. etc. etc. etc. It isn't 'hysteria' to say there's a _chance_ SOD will devastate eastern forests if it gets here.

    This post was edited by davidrt28 on Sun, Jan 25, 15 at 6:43

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    8 years ago

    Google is saying the website has been hacked, so I wouldn't visit it anymore. I thought to save the last set of plant descriptions a couple months ago because I do think they have some utility.

    Here is an article about the end:

    http://registerguard.com/rg/news/local/33277348-75/construction-on-large-north-eugene-senior-housing-project-to-start-next-month.html.csp

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