Grape basics:

There are two basic kinds of table grapes--European (Vitis vinifera), and American (V. labrusca). There are also a few hybrids between the two that will grow in the Valley.
European grapes are more or less susceptible to powdery mildew, but are mostly more heat tolerant than American types. Because of that, they do best where they get full sun, and good air circulation, ergo, give them a southern exposure, and a trellis at least one foot from the wall.
American and American hybrid grapes are resistant to mildew, but are less than enthused by our summer heat. They prefer an eastern exposure, because they still need some direct sun to produce fruit. One advantage to the American types is that they are resistant to grape leaf skeletonizers, a major pest on grapes in the Valley.

Good luck finding seeded grapes at local nurseries, since practically all of the customers prefer not to deal with seeds. The easiest ones to find are probably 'Muscat' among the Europeans, and 'Concord' among the Americans. Most other seeded varieties will probably have to be mail ordered, and you will need to convince the seller of your best planting dates: December-January for bare root or cuttings, October-April for potted plants.

A lot of soil conditioning, watering, feeding, pruning, and pest control will depend on your chosen variety, and original soil type, so we would need more info there.

Others would probably have more info for you, because I have mostly grown seedless varieties, in one part of the Valley. Best of luck!

Kevin : )

There's a bit of info here about what grapes do well in the low desert.

Here is a link that might be useful: Deciuous Fruit and Nuts for the Low Desert

Grapes are easy here, although you're limited as far as varieties.
Location is going to make the biggest difference. I advise you to not plant with west or south exposure. So far I think east exposure is the best here.
Obviously the easiest one to grow here is Thompson Seedless, and although I know you said you want seeded ones, this one is by far the easiest grape to grow here. They grow like weeds and you have to keep up with the pruning. Other varieties that I've heard about or that I have:
Fantastic - it's a black table grape, seems to be doing ok for me so far, and it has beautiful red fall foliage.
I also have flame seedless and ruby seedless, but they're not doing as well. I've heard that Black Monuka does well too. Check out www.rsigrowers.com the guy is in Glendale and he has some grapes too. Also Baker's nursery carried the Fantastic. As far as seeded grapes, I doubt a lot of the wine type grapes like Concord will do well here. Same with the muscats, few of them can handle the heat. I think you will just have to experiment with varieties because I haven't found a lot of people in the valley who are willing to think outside of the "seedless only" box as far as table grapes, which is a shame. This is exactly what I'm doing. A great website for grape cuttings and info is www.bunchgrapes.com. He has a really extensive selection of grape varieties, and the cuttings are a piece of cake to root.
The next variety I'm dying to try is called Jupiter. If I could get it to grow here, it sounds like an awesome variety.

Greendesert, I was surprised when you said that few of the muscats could take the heat. The one that I grew decades ago seemed pretty bullet-proof, growing and fruiting much better than my 'Thompson Seedless', though that was plenty easy itself! So I did some research, and found that the muscats are a much more varied group than I thought. I don't know what variety I had--back then a 'Muscat' was a 'Muscat'--but I suppose it was one from the Middle East ('Muscat of Alexandria'?). It had medium sized, greenish cream fruit, with seeds, and an incredible rich flavor. On the other hand, I suppose that one from Germany or Austria would balk at being grown in the desert!

To add to the confusion, I have known people to mistake "muscat" for "muscadine". I never heard of anyone successfully growing muscadine grapes here in the desert, but I don't know that it's impossible.

Kevin : )

Kevin,
I would love to be able to grow muscats here, my grandfather (in Eastern Europe) had a vineyard and grew muscats, I think it was the German type (Hamburg??) I still remember the incredible flavor. From the research I've done so far, most of them can't handle AZ climate, but if you think yours was Muscat of Alexandria, I think I might just want to give it a try if I could find it. What happened to it? did you move or did it die? I plan to try a whole bunch of different grape varieties here as I'm not finding a lot of people that think outside of the "popular seedles variety" box here, but maybe I just don't know the right people. oooh... I'm salivating just thinking about some of the grapes I got to enjoy while helping my grandfather harvest his grapes. haha... I even did the stomping on grapes barefoot thing in the big barrel.

I moved. Right now, I confess to feeding the zeitgheist, and am eschewing chewing grape seeds. Try asking the Duck and Decanter deli. I think I remember them having a vine at one of their locations.

Best of luck!
Kevin : )

www.goldminemtn.com you wont find a better source for info on grapes in the valley. this guy is someone I met through winepress.us forum and he has been more than helpful so far.

as mentioned above, vinifera is the only grapes worth trying here and I'd recommend table grapes for beginners (they are seedless but grow well here.) I also would recommend eastern exposure, 1-2 feet off the block wall. this will get the vine early sunlight and dry off any moisture to avoid fungus/ mildew. its also bright sunlight before the temps get really high. it should get sun from sunrise to about 3 pm when the sun gets on the backside of that wall. grapes do need sun to ripen but not really in the valley or youll have raisins in no time. you'll need a trellis or an arbor and space them well, my mom in laws thomp seedless has shoots that reach almost 20' every year!

Why do you want seeds? grapes are like humans sort of, they seeds wont be the same as any other vine. you'd have to grow about 100 for 5-6 years and hope 1 or 2 were good. if you want to propagate a vine you need to taks a cutting about 12-16 inches when it's dormant. this will "clone" it and you can do this every year. now if you want seeds for the health benefit, I can't argue there. I read the seeds should be broken to get the extract, where the antioxidants are. (in a blender as a smoothie or something)

the best source i've found for AZ grapes in Rockin-L-Ranch on ebay - http://stores.ebay.com/Rockin-L-Ranch he's a little more expensive, but guarantees the product will arrive in good condition and doesn't have minimum orders.
ALSO- the time to plant is now! bud break is occuring and the heat will be here soon.

the bunchgrapes.com websites is Lon Rombough's. (the grape grower) he is very knowledgable but his data is not for our climate. however he has an extensive catalog of cuttings for sale in the winter.dont buy grapes from mypersonalvineyard.com. look him up on the cali BBB. he scammed me for 160 bucks last spring then fell off the planet. some other desert varieties are barbera, black monnuka, tempranillo, syrah and chardonnay should be ok. most of the sweet/ table varieties are bred to be seedless, and the cuttings that Mr. Rombough offers are mostly american varieties (some have seeds but are highly unlikly to survive here.)

Unbelievable! Tuning in four months later (I registered on GardenWeb with an email account I now rarely use), I discover these thoughtful replies. Thank you you to all that posted to help me.

UPDATE: I ended up purchasing two bare root Steuben grape plants (http://www.bunchgrapes.com/steuben_grapes.html). I got them in the ground in February, and they have really taken off. Against all recommendations, I planted them on the west side of a block wall. It's not that I'm a rebel, rather I had no good options on the remaining walls. However, the wall is close enough to the house that the plants are in shade by 3:30 PM or so. If needed, I'll strategically place some shade cloth to get them shaded by 2:00 PM or so.

As to why I want seeded grapes: nutrition. I've read that 90% of the nutritional benefit of a grape is in the seeds and skin. As a kid, I ate seeded grapes exclusively, and as an adult I still prefer them that way. This may be a hard sell to my kids, so I'll probably end up starting them on pulped whole grapes as a drink to ensure they get the truly good part of the grapes.

At any rate, so far so good with the grapes. Oh! We have a vine that sprang to life this spring and now has a few bunches of grapes on it. I thought for sure this big, old vine was dead. The trunk is about four inches across, but is located in nearly complete shade. It is located between a block wall and a large shed (located two feet from the wall. It receives about an hour of direct sun a day. The house was empty for about a year before we bought it. I'm amazed this grape survived last summer with only natural rainfall. I hope the fruit survives the birds!

Take care everyone, and thank you again for all your advice!

qwerty

thanks for bringing this thread back to life qwertyposter

I purchased a thompson and flame a month or so ago (late planting i know but they were on sale for like 5 dollars each) and planted them on the northern wall (south facing) but they are about 10-15ft or so from the western wall so they do get some shade there but not much.. I would say by 4 or so (maybe 430) they are shaded.

so far they have been doing alright, some of the shoots turned crisp but i think that was from transplant shock or maybe being planted so late in the season

Hi Everyone

So, my two Steuben grape plants have really taken off. However, I am concerned about one of them. It's newest leaves are very light colored. The slightly older "new" leaves are a light green with normal green veins. the old, large leaves look normal (dark green).

The other plant (located eight feet away) looks perfectly normal. Does anyone know what is happening to the sick-looking plant?

Thank you in advance for your advice!

Sincerely,

qwerty

Steuben variety ... "From Cornell's Geneva, New York experiment station" If it thrives in upstate New York, it might find AZ a little too hot.

Sounds an iron deficiency - add Ironite liberally around the plant and water it in well.

Also add soil sulfur liberally to slowly lower the pH and release iron. AZ soils have plenty of iron, but it's locked up ion alkaline complexes. Drop the pH and you have ample oron.

Here is a link that might be useful: Chlorosis (look at the leaves)

Thank you lazygardens.

I was concerned about the Steuben in this area, but the seller assured me that it would be all right. In fact, one of the plants seems to be doing quite well.

The sick plant resembles the photo in the link you listed. The text in that link is very discouraging. It basically says don't grow chlorosis-susceptible plants in soils with a natural high ph. However, since my other Steuben is doing well, I'm going to press on. I will try to lower the ph of the soil to see if I can save the plant.

Thank you for the information!

Sincerely,

qwerty

personally I would NOT use ironite. I tried it on my citrus and it sucks. Chelated iron is way way better. Yeah, growing stuff in this hard clay with high Ph is a real challenge. I sometimes water with acidified water. I also have my bathtub/shower draining under my trees and before I pull the drain, I dump a large cup of vinegar in there. Sometimes more. I thought about injecting small amounts of sulphuric acid in the water to bring down the Ph even more. I also thought about using pool acid crystals, but there's a problem with that. They do turn into sulphuric acid, but they also add salts to the water, so I'll stay away from that. I tried gypsum and sulphur, I think it would take quite a bit for it to be effective in the long run and it takes a long time for it to start working.