Did you call Linda @ Southwest Wildlife as I suggested you do last year?

You need to cage them - the melons, not the packrats and ground squirrels.

Are these like the grey squirrels we have here in WI? or are these a AZ only species?

Around the rabbits do all the damage...until the tomatoes start to ripen and they (squirrels) start going for them.

Isn't there something you can rig around the tree trunks that makes it impossible for them to climb up?

Where do you find (or how do you make) melon cages?

Wire in the trunks of the trees wont help since they just jump from the fence directly on to the trees.

No, I didnt contact Linda at Southwest Wildlife. Is that the e-mail address? Linda@southwestWildlife? If not do you have contact information?

I am not sure what kind of critters the squirrel "thingies" are. The pest conrol came out today to inspect and they didnt see any (too early in the AM) but claim they are prarie dogs or gophers. But I found this link on the internet, and the things I have look NOTHING like this. http://www.desertusa.com/dec96/du_pdogs.html They are smaller and not as round, have a bushy tail, and they CLIMB. they look more like this: http://www.azuswebworks.com/html/chipper.html

Definately some small variety of desert squirrel.

These are definately the rats: http://www.desertusa.com/mag99/apr/papr/packrats.html

They are charging 300 to set traps out for us, then 50 a month to maintain, and they come out to dispose and rebait the trap at any time you call. This seems a bit outrageous in price to me, but still cheaper than the other place we called. They claim if you just buy traps and set them out yourself, if you dont take special precautions they will smell you on the traps and just avoid them. Neither husband and I really want to deal with disposing of dead rats (or squirrels they are too cute). But I dont like feeling like Im getting ripped off either.

I'm sorry you're having such a hard time with critters Jessica. I understand completely. I live out in the desert and I've given up trying to grown anything edible because I am unwilling to build a fenced garden including running fence up to 18" deep in the ground and covering the top of the garden. From what I have read this is the only thing that will keep out these kind of pests. I guess they look to vegetation not only for food but for the water it contains so as the summer heats up, it's bound to get even worse. We battle the bunnies here too which even eat ornamentals, so it's always trying to test a new plant and find out they'll eat it right down to a nub.

Other than the traps, poison (which I also don't recommend due to the possible risk for pets and good critters and the way it can carry down the food chair) and the fully enclosed garden "yard", I really don't think there is much else you can do. Now I have heard about some sticky stuff that you can put along the top of your fence so they won't want to walk along there - that could be an option but I wouldn't be too optimistic.

Just be happy the pack rats are not eating the wiring out of your car. We have to make sure we start the cars daily and keep the hoods up too as well as park either in garage or FAR away from any desert vegetation to try to keep them from doing this damage. Gratefully my DH has been able to repair the damages over the years as he has probably saved us at least $3000 in labor. Those rats are so destructive.

It never ceases to amaze me when people are surprised by wildlife (including birds) actually eating the food that they find :o

I wouldn't eliminate the possibility of it being raccoons--as I mentioned last year. Have you seen mammals jumping directly from the fence into the trees? Rock squirrels (the largest ones in our desert) are not like the gray or red squirrels. Lazygardens' suggestion is a good one. Unless you've got coyotes, an enclosure with chicken wire (half-inch openings) oughta work. Do you see burrows in your yard?

I also wouldn't trust any info received from a pest control company; they profit by preying upon people's fears, and of course they're going to benefit from convincing people that [whatever they can kill or otherwise eliminate] is a threat to your very existence and to all that you hold dear. What type of traps are being used? Whether dead or alive, have you asked what they do with the animals that they trap?

Do *NOT* use "STICKY STUFF"! It kills birds (directly and indirectly) that come in contact with it.

Seems to me that your money would be better spent on an enclosure. I don't know how aesthetics and finances factor in for you, but I've seen some very attractive garden enclosures in Cave Creek.

Just checked out your links. Yep, Harris' Antelope Ground Squirrel is indigenous--and very cute IMHO ;) (I make every effort to entice them into my yard.) Behavior and diet info for our native squirrels and other mammals can be found via the link below. The page includes links to all species found in the Sonoran Desert: bats, coyotes & foxes, procyonids (raccoons, etc.), mustelids (skunks, etc.), cats, hooved animals, shrews, rabbits & hares, ground squirrels, pocket gophers, hereromyidae (kangaroo rates & pocket mice), muridae (mice & rats). Please note the foraging habits of foxes & raccoons! (The pics seem to be missing from those pages; the text is from A Natural History of the Sonoran Desert.)

Southwest Wildlife's email address is swref@extremezone.com ...phone number is 480 471-9109.

Here is a link that might be useful: native mammals: behavior & diet info

Winter Plumage, can you share anything further on attractive fully enclosed gardens? Attractiveness and expense is a main reason I have not made an enclosure -- I didn't move to the desert to see a big fenced in cage but rather the natural vegetation here. A big part of me would love to have a real garden that would give crops though...

It seems though that anything that might look halfway nice would be pricey. I'm up near Cave Creek too and would love to see those options if they are something that can be shared.

I think I would try to find or make some sort of metal ring that could be fitted to the tree trunk say, 30" off the ground that would stop the animals from climbing your trees.

You'd want it to be expandable so you could adjust it as the tree grows.

I have a few basic ideas floating around in my head, but they're difficult to describe in words. I'm pretty sure I've seen something along these lines for sale as some point. I'll look around and see if I can't locate something.

Well... There was a volunteer in [the organization I once had] in Cave Creek; she & her husband had a beautifully enclosed garden. They built a connecting aviary (release site) using the same design -- which made it appear as one structure. I think that they still live there... and I may have an old photo of it... the old-fashioned kind on paper ;) Otherwise, I can call her and see if she has email and perhaps she'll email a photo or two. Also, the first time I was en route to another volunteer's property (100 acres in CC), I took a wrong turn from Spur Cross Rd. and ended up at a very nice home--albeit the wrong one!--and they had really nice enclosed gardens as well... :o

I could call the [people on 100 acres] to see if they know offhand (and they probably do) where one could view enclosed gardens in their area. Maybe Grant would know--? as I understand that he lives in that area.

And did you do your *homework assignment(s)* posted above yet? LOL

Hiya!
Over in our gallery, there is a thread entitled "Garden Hutte" posted by DesertDi that shows how she is managing to have a garden despite having to share with the local wildlife! :)

Check it out, I'll put the link here for ease of viewing..

Susie

Here is a link that might be useful: DesertDi's Garden Hutte

Susie, DesertDi's is a nice one! I've seen them with costlier materials, too; i.e., concrete, metal frame, etc. This looks like a basic wooden frame--which can be modified to taste, as well as "dressed up or dressed down" ;) I can't tell if it was screened with wire, mesh or fiberglass window screeing-? Pretty much like building an aviary!

Just curious -----> Wouldn't it be desirable for pollinators/certain insects to have access? Or would it depend upon the plants contained therein?

Hi Jessica,
I posted a plea for help about 2 weeks ago. I have had the same problem. My tomato plants have been picked clean, the only thing left are half eaten tomaotes.
Someone suggested that I get an outside cat that would be on a 24 hour patrol. I am currently looking for someone who has a cat who is used to being outside.

I will let you know if this slows them down!

Amberjo,
Not a good strategy.

Well, decided to take some of your suggestions and went out and bought some live traps instead of going with a pest control service. I baited with apples, and put them under the fruit trees. Apparently they are too smart, and the birds are not so smart. Much to my sadness every trap was filled with beautiful fat DEAD quail. Apparently live traps arent so humane in this heat.... even if in a shaded area and checked frequently. :-(

So, for now Ive pulled all the traps. Maybe Ill try again when it is cooler. Does anyone have any suggestion for something attractive to squirrels but not quail? Im thinking I will just take the wall down and let my dogs police the area. We had squirrels at the old house but no problems with them hauling off fruit. I guess a 140 pound shepherd who can stand and reach the trees (they are semi dwarf) is about as good a deterrant as I am going to get.

Dont know what I am going to do about the rats in the garden area. After the live trap issue we got some snap traps and baited them with cotten and placed them only in the garden area. They told me other wildlife would not be attracted to the cotton so I wouldnt have to worry about killing the quail. Apparently pack rats arent that interested in cotton either, cause they have been set out for over a week and nothing.

The dogs arent allowed in the veggie garden because I dont really want them peeing on my lettuce and tomatoes (but then again, I dont really want the rats doing that either). If anyone has any suggestions, please let me know. I have been hearing horror stories about the damage that can be done if you dont get the packrat issue under control before they start trying to move in to your air conditioning, car, garage, etc etc. So far ours only keeps trying to take over the lawn mower...

Someone posted they did not think the cat idea was a good one. Just curious as to why? I havent considered it just becuase it gets so hot here and we have coyoties so I wouldnt want to force a cat to live outside. I have inside cats, but I dont think the outside ones would stick around long if I did get one or two.
Jessica

I'm confused. Did you ever actually see a mammal taking your fruit? Have you familiarized yourself with the above referenced behavior and diet info of native mammals? The only long-term, humane solution--and one that doesn't adversely affect the ecosystem--has already been suggested/described: enclose the garden. One can lead a horse to water...

Posted by: winter_plumage_AZ Sonoran Desert (My Page) on Wed, Jun 22, 05 at 13:37

"I'm confused. Did you ever actually see a mammal taking your fruit? Have you familiarized yourself with the above referenced behavior and diet info of native mammals? The only long-term, humane solution--and one that doesn't adversely affect the ecosystem--has already been suggested/described: enclose the garden. One can lead a horse to water... "

Huh, that is funny, because you don't sound a bit "confused" to me, just intentionally snide. But just in case you are legitimately confused, allow me clarify a few things for you.

No, I have not seen anything taking the apples. I only saw the nibble marks (which do not look the same as peck marks) in the fruit and melons before the apples all vanished. After catching the quail in the live traps, I put out some apples to observe. All the quail do is peck at the fruit, carry off little bits, and leave lots of crumbs or half eaten pieces of fruit. They do not seem able to carry entire apples off.

Unlike the quail, the squirrels would not come down from the fence (or out of the trees) when I was outside observing, even if I maintained a distance. But I have observed them jumping from the wall to the trees. And I was advised by several different places that the squirrels in our area generally do not rely upon any outside water sources so they COMMONLY collect and store fruit (if it is available) in cool dark burrows as a source of hydration. I was also told that apples are among their favorites.

I would love to have enclosed gardens. It is not a possibility. I have over a dozen fruit trees spread over a large area. They are young and will increase substantially in height. I also have a second extremely large garden with herbs, veggies, berry bushes, and grape vines.

I do not have the equipment, the building knowledge, or the physical ability (nerve damage in both arms) to build myself two enormous structures of the sort discussed on the list. I do not have the funds to hire someone to design and build something of that scale for me.

And, although I might be able to enclose the vegetable garden (pests have not been eating my vegetables or berries), I could not enclose the fruit trees because a structure of that height would be visible from neighboring properties and most likely prohibited by the CC & R's of my HOA.

I am sure there are other people who would love to have enclosed gardens, but for reasons of their own (unrelated to the implied stubbornness or stupidity of a thirsty horse that refuses to drink), it is simply not a viable option for them at this time.

If anyone has any new (constructive and non-patronizing) ideas about potential ways to address the squirrel and pack rat problem that have not already been addressed, please let me know.

Jessica

We just put up extensive rabbit fencing to help control their damage. I'm afraid squirrels are tougher to keep out and you've got a bigger area. *sigh*

Any chance you could put traps *in* the trees? Our quail only seem to go in trees to watch over their toddlers. Of course, you'd have to check the traps all the time. Maybe only put them out while you're outside?

Some of the other suggestions sound like they're worth a go. Good luck!

Jen

Okay, here's what we have established: Traps were placed for an unknown target. Squirrels can jump and quail can't carry apples. You've paid $300+ to kill quail (illegal, btw) but you can't pay anyone to erect a freakin' barrier.

"The pest control came out today to inspect and they didnt see any (too early in the AM) but claim they are prarie dogs or gophers."

We don't have prairie dogs. Gophers, packrats & mice aren't into fruit; therefore I'm not understanding the reason for trapping them. Oops! Money for the pest control people!

We have only three species of squirrels--Harris' antelope ground squirrel (small, striped & chipmunk-looking), round-tailed ground squirrel (look like small prairie dogs) and rock squirrel--the squirrel-sized squirrel--but you are not sure "what kind of critters the squirrel 'thingies' are".

"I was advised by several different places that the squirrels in our area generally do not rely upon any outside water sources so they COMMONLY collect and store fruit (if it is available) in cool dark burrows as a source of hydration. I was also told that apples are among their favorites."

How *DID* they evolve without cultivated fruit in their burrows?!! *Think* about that. There is a reason that mammals store seeds, nuts and the like: they have a long "shelf life". Now, how long do you suppose fruit would retain its moisture? If fruit were "stored" in burrows, the moisture would create toxic fungi/mold.

"I would love to have enclosed gardens. It is not a possibility."

You seemed interested in learning more, so I assumed that it was an option. I'm sorry that I misunderstood.

"If anyone has any new (constructive and non-patronizing) ideas about potential ways to address the squirrel and pack rat problem..."

Ok, Jessica... You win! How 'bout a surveillance camera?!! I happen to think that education is constructive, even if it isnt what we want to hear. Knowing your subjects can be very useful in learning how to prevent, thwart, or divert their activities--if possible.

It is disturbing that people don't care enough to know and value our natives as part of the diverse ecosystem of the Sonoran Desert, and can so easily take away their lives for myriad reasons--not the least of which is for fruit that can be purchased at the store. The wildlife being displaced are without alternatives/options, and their hungry young are left to die a slow, painful death of dehydration and starvation as they wait for their mother to return. Enjoy your crop.

Posted by: winter_plumage_AZ Sonoran Desert (My Page) on Thu, Jun 23, 05 at 12:48

"Okay, here's what we have established: Traps were placed for an unknown target. Squirrels can jump and quail can't carry apples. You've paid $300+ to kill quail (illegal, btw) but you can't pay anyone to erect a freakin' barrier."

I did not spend 300 on anything. I got the check back and purchased from an alternate source two discounted live traps, and five two dollar snap traps. The bait (apples for live traps, cotton for snap traps) are already things we keep around the house. Inspection of the property was free. The entire thing was inexpensive. 50 dollars or under.

I agree a 300 dollar barrier would be affordable. I dont think anyone could build me one the size I need for that. If I am wrong and someone is willing and able to come over and build two enclosed gardens for me that complies with my HOA for under $300 dollars -- you have a job if you want it. E-mail me and we will talk.
I bought LIVE traps to catch and release squirrels, not to kill quail. I set the traps according to the specifications I was given. I have not done anything "illegal" as you suggest.

"packrats & mice aren't into fruit; therefore I'm not understanding the reason for trapping them. Oops! Money for the pest control people!"

It wss the young man at a pest control place who, when I told him I would not pay the 300 dollars, kindly told me where I could find discounted live traps. Go figure.

Why trap packrats if they arent into the fruit? Because I don't want them destroying the firebrick on my kiln (very fragile), or my air conditioning units, or my lawn mower, or the wiring in our cars. They have already chewed holes in my tarps, built a nest under the lawn mower, and are in the kiln area.

"How *DID* they evolve without cultivated fruit in their burrows?!! *Think* about that."

Dogs and horses evolved without commercially prepared kibble or commercially produced feed. Yet they still eat it. Cats cannot hunt or kill a cow. Yet they will eat beef it if it is in cat food. Just because they eat a type of food now, doesn't mean that they couldn't have "evolved" or survived in the wild without it. (or that it is the healthiest thing for them to eat either).

When you alter an animals natural habitat, they do not always act the same as they would in the wild. Sometimes even domesticated animals carry out instinctive behaviors in illogical ways. I know a lady in Hawaii who has a dog that collects and stores coconuts under her house. I know of another whose dog liked to herd the kitchen chairs into a corner.

"Now, how long do you suppose fruit would retain its moisture? If fruit were "stored" in burrows, the moisture would create toxic fungi/mold."

Many people where I grew up used to store apples and other fruits and vegetables in dark, dry, EARTH, root-cellars. Green apples (especially the smaller ones) actually do have quite a long shelf life. Assuming they would mold or just dry out quickly, that is still not proof that they are not being taken (or taken and placed into in burrows).

Animals will drink antifreeze. It is not part of their natural diet. In fact, it can be quite deadly. Animals sometimes take or eat things because it is available and smells good, not because they "have to" and not knowing it is not a "logical" or healthy thing for them to do.

I have not ruled out the possibility that it might not be some other type of animal. The live traps were one way to try to find the answer to that. They were never intended to kill anything.

"How 'bout a surveillance camera?!!"

That is a good suggestion and something that I did think about and check into. I agree that if I knew without a doubt what was taking the apples, it would be helpful in finding a solution. But I need a wireless camera (no electricity in the orchard and too far away to run electrical cord) that projects to an indoor monitor, it has to be weather proof (it is an outside exposed area), and the moniter has to either record or have the ability to hook up to a VCR, (so you dont have to have someone present 24/7 to observe the moniter).

I was expecting prices similar to the motion activated nanny cams you see everywhere now (100 dollar and under range). Not so, the outdoor wireless that transmit long distances are extremely expensive. The prices I got were all close to 1000 dollars (installation not included). That is just not affordable and so I am still shopping around.

"I happen to think that education is constructive, even if it isnt what we want to hear."

"Education" is constructive. Sarcasm, presumption, insinuation, and the assumption that your "opinion" is the only "right" one, is not so constructive. It is your tone I take offense to. And frankly, it is not really needed to get your point across.

"It is disturbing that people don't care enough to know and value our natives as part of the diverse ecosystem of the Sonoran Desert, and can so easily take away their lives for myriad reasons--not the least of which is for fruit that can be purchased at the store. The wildlife being displaced are without alternatives/options, and their hungry young are left to die a slow, painful death of dehydration and starvation as they wait for their mother to return. Enjoy your crop."

If I simply did not care, as you suggest, I would not be attempting to live-trap and relocate. Part of our subdivision is next to protected desert upland, part is not. Mine is not. Because of the way the community is situation, we have many native and non-native food sources available. The animals here are far from starving. The cottontails and quail are so big and fat, they don't look like desert animals. People even put seed out for them. No critters (quail, squirrel, or unknown target) are going to be forced to die a slow and painful death just because I intend to find a way to stop them of eating ALL the fruit from my fruit trees.

You have made your point about the problems associated with urban encroachment and the plight of Arizona's native wildlife. I think it is great that you feel passionately about this cause. I have my own causes (and believe it or not, most are animal welfare causes) that I am equally passionate about. But it is not my preference to belittle or lecture people for not agreeing with my beliefs or opinions. This conversation between us is not really productive, so please, lets just move on.

Jessica

Yep. Round tailed ground squirrel is my problem. Dined on all my wife's tomatoes today. Bitter disappointment. Now it's too hot for more tomatoes to come on. Next year I'm going to try tomatoes in 5 gallon buckets on tables. I'm going to make a table using 2 by 6 with metal 3/4 inch conduit legs. I dought the squirrels can climb 3 feet straight up pipe. I did an experiment with a pipe beat into the ground and put a fresh strawberry on top and some on the ground. Very aerobatic BTW. They ate the ones on the ground but the one on the pipe was there until it dried up 3 or 4 days later. Granted I have a covered garden of decent size in the middle of the desert here in Tucson.

When I built the garden I dug a 1 foot deep trench and ran galvanized wire mesh completely around the garden and buried it. 3 feet of mesh still above ground. Then made an aviary kind of thing with 1 inch metal pipe and couplers. It's 40 Feet square and ten feet high with plastic mesh over it sewn together with fish line. The metal fence keeps out the javelina and rabbits. The netting keeps out the birds but the ground squirrels still get in. I think the key is that they cannot climb something slick like metal pipe. These squirrels climb but don't jump.

Someone mentioned sheet metal Another possibility on the trees is to surround the trunk with sheet metal pipe used for water heater flues and such. Local hardware stores have it and it has a seam so you can put it around the trunk and couple the seam. You can cut it to the proper height and remove it if needed. You might have to fix some wire mesh around the base on the ground to keep them from tunneling under. This assumes they are climbing the trunk. If they are getting in the tree in other ways this doesn't help. Just a few ideas I am considering.

Cats around here wouldn't last a few days. Too many hawks, owls, coyotes and the occasional bobcat. Not a chance.

Rat traps work with peanut butter but there are too many and I worry about catching other kritters. We had a little luck with a noise maker sold at the local hardware store. However the noise is audible and annoying but it did work believe it or not. Until a deaf squirrel came along.

For tomatoes I like the bucket idea on tables with legs they cannot grip and climb. Then make a metal conduit frame covered in bird netting. By the way someone told me the bird netting kills birds. I have never had dead bird yet in my netting. Metal conduit is like 2 bucks for a 10 foot length. You can bend it with a pipe bender. It can be welded, easily cut, drilled, sheet metal screws can be used and there are couplers. I have several ideas for next year.

Good luck.

Hello Jessica
I was wondering how old are Your trees? A friend of mine has 10 different fruiting trees in her yard at the beginning she was losing all her fruit but now the trees are full grown and there is enough For the critters and humans. Time may be your friend here. Space is a issue in my yard so I cannot let the trees get to full size.
I have several fruiting trees in my yard And had the same dilemma. In the past I have tried different things .. For my mission fig.I decided to Bag tightly several branches of the tree And left the rest for the critters, (I used mosquito netting from a old gazebo it comes with zippers )That worked great but I worried about the branch breaking. This year I went with the whole tree strategy. During the winter I trimmed it back to a manageable size. ... How many figs can two people eat... Last week I made a Temporary frame out of cheap PVC And draped the mosquito netting around it And secured bird netting over the top It's pretty secure I hope it works. I know its ugly but its only for a few months. For my orange tree ,Dwarf navel, I sewed 60 cloth bags and covered 60 oranges That worked until last year when I had a small harvest and they figured out they could peck through the bag:( It's looking like a bigger harvest this year so I think I will stick to the bags. Some it better than none!!!
I have raised concrete veggie beds with chicken wire around them and bird netting over top. In the past I have used metal window screen... I folded it around each melon and clothes pinned them close and did the same for my tomato plants (wrapped the whole thing)
Gardening here is tough you have to be really dedicated and pick your battles.

Hi wildfirekennel! I am so sorry that you are having such a bad time with the critters! I too am in a rural area with open desert around me (a wash runs through the back of my property) So, ground squirrels, pack rats and bunnies, oh my! The pest people will take your money, solve none of your problems on a permanent basis and cause undue duress to the critters. So, you must adapt to them, I have learned. And here is what I have learned:

1) On the citrus, make a "cage" out of wire that is big enough in diameter that the little buggers can't get a good flying leap at it. You only need to do this when the trees are fairly young. Later on, they'll produce enough for all of you plus most citrus has thorns which are a deterrent ;)

2) On the citrus and any fruit trees, when the fruit is set and getting ready to ripen, attach old CDs with fishing line or mylar "bird scare" tape to random branches. This works really well for the birds, and so-so with the squirrels.

3) Pick the fruit like peaches a little before they're ripe and let them ripen on your window sill. That way you get some!

4) The only way to grow veggies or melons is in a caged garden with raised beds, as several people have mentioned. I had a friend weld me up a cage that is 18' deep X 24' long X 8' tall, my hubby trenched in the irrigation lines and built the raised beds, which sit on top of 3-4" of gravel and are lined with the metal mesh that you buy at Home Depot to put stucco on exterior walls.

5) I do have 2 raised beds outside of the cage that I successfully grow anything that doesn't turn a color other than green (garlic, watermelons, green melons) I tacked chicken wire to the outside of the wood beds and ran it up about 2' at the corners and deliberately left it flimsy so the critters get a sense of motion and disembark before getting up to the good stuff.

Here are some pics for you and if you would like to chat further let me know! I feel your pain and frustration... Here is a pic of the garden when it was first built.

And here is a pic of the interior about a year later - we used steel and are letting it oxidize naturally.

Another benefit is this cuts wind by about 60% and sun by about 40%. We also have misters on the "ceiling" which helps tremendously on the worst summer days.

Here is a pic of some citrus and roses that are "caged" properly (well, at least for our particular critters). Drive in some 3' long rebar at a couple of points (sort of weave it through the wire). We do this with the fruit and citrus trees. It also helps to keep the dogs from crashing into young trees and snapping 'em like twigs.